Talk:Greek War of Independence

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1828

The following events were in the 1828 article. Since they are not mentioned here, I'm moving them out. If they are indeed correct then they should be described here:

April 26 - Greek War of Independence: Russia declares war on Turkey, in support of the Greek struggle for independence.
August 9 - The Egyptians evacuate Greece, practically ending hostilities there.
August 27 - The Russians defeat the Turks at Akhaltzikke.

redirect from Greek Revolution of 1821

I added the redirect sorry if I did anything wrong. --Rob 15:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

When did it end?

Why does the introduction read "... was a successful war waged by the Greeks between 1821 and 1827"? By 1827, it had not been successful yet. The infobox gives 1828 as end date. But Greece achieved independence in 1832. Common Man 20:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The last campaigns finshed in 1831 when the Greeks were pushing for more land and attacking the Turks in Central Greece.

Some treaties merged in

I've merged the Treaty of Constantinople and London Conference of 1832 articles, which were quite short, into this one. I think I've kept redundancies to a minimum, but I'd appreciate if someone could look over the "Diplomatic endgame" section and check whether there's any repeated details that should be trimmed. Kirill Lok s h in 03:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Battlebox - Forces

The battlebox currently reads simply "Greek guerilla forces" and "Ottoman Empire forces." I think this gives a somewhat incomplete picture. Firstly, not all Greek forces were sensu stricto "guerillas." Demetrios Ypsilantis led a battalion of regulars and tried to organize other Greek fightes along more traditional, Western European lines; although his efforts largely failed, these regulars were still combatants in the GWI. Bouboulina led a highly organized, albeit small, traditional naval force. Moreover, there was participation on the Greek side both by foreign irregulars - Philhellene amateurs who fought as guerillas for free, and foreign advisors who fought for pay on land and sea - like the commanding general after 1830, Richard Church. Regular British, French and Russian naval forces fought in the critical Battle of Navarino.
The Ottomans were a mixed lot, including troops from all over the empire. In World War II articles, it is customary to list New Zealand, Australian and Canadian troops where they participated in major British battles - shouldn't we do the same here? In fact, it should be pointed out somewhere (although probably not in the battlebox) that the organized navy of the Ottomans had a high proportion of Greek sailors.
We do readers a disservice if we don't let them know at the outset how complicated this war really was. We can paint a romantic picture of heroic Greek klephts vs. perfidious Turks, but in reality many foreign nations were involved, and their participation was often critical. The Ottomans would probably have been knocked out of the Peloponnese if not for the intervention of Egypt - only nominally under Ottoman control - and afterwards the Greek rebellion likely would have been crushed in the end without the Battle of Navarino, which crippled the Ottomans at sea and showed them that traditional West European enemies and the Russia they often distrusted were willing to come together to aid the Greeks. --Jpbrenna 03:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh. I've already changed that ;-) Kirill Lok s h in 03:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Lord Byron

It is mentioned that Lord Byron, the English poet, fought ont he greek side of the war. I do not know if any other english literary giants fought in the war, but I gather it was somewhat of a cause celebree in its era. Has anyone done any investigation into this?

JBickley00 22:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Massacre at Chios

I'm curious about the use of the word "alleged" in reference to this sentence:

The Ottomans retaliated violently in other parts of Greece and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, allegedly massacring the Greek population of Chios and other towns.

The Misplaced Pages reference to the Greek town of Chios states clearly that a massacre did occur. Most of what I found on the web regarding the subject indicates that the massacre took place. I'm removing the word "alleged". If anyone chooses to change this please be courteous and post your source disputing the massacre. 68.203.127.188 19:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Casualties and Military size

The battlebox numbers are spectacularly wrong. How is it the Turks inflicted so many casualties and were so vastly outnumbered? Periklis* 05:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese: Consider for Deletion

Greeks attacked not only turkish military officials but also civilians, a matter which caused a terrible massacre. Main article: see (Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese)

The Ottomans retaliated violently in parts of Greece to the massacre of thousands of Muslims by the Greek insurgents, and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, massacring in retalliation the Greek population of Chios and other towns. These incidents, however, drew sympathy for the Greek cause in western Europe—although the British and French governments suspected that the uprising was a Russian plot to seize Greece and possibly Constantinople from the Ottomans.

The above statements in this article are unsupported by references and have quite a revisionist history slant. The article "Turkish Genocide on Peleponese" to which a link is established from this article is being considered for deletion from Misplaced Pages also for having a revisionist history slant. The above statement should either be substantiated with proper scholarly references, or be deleted.

I think not. Just as they might be unreferenced (but definitely not unsupported, as I myself support it), your comment is also unreferenced, and by the looks of it, unsupported. I invite you to sign your signatures next time with four ~ and please try to give more reason to your posts. -- WiiVolve 12:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

What about the other battles?

As I was reading the article, I noticed there were some battles that were not even mentioned - indeed, there were many more than the four depicted in the article.

I was wondering if anyone had any information about the Battle of Valtetsi, Agrinion (?), Gravia Inn (hani ths gravias), Turkish surrender at Palamidi (in Nafplio), naval battle at the Alexandria port and the liberation of Tripoli? (or any other ones) It would be much appreciated if articles could be added regarding these battles of the revolution. IMHO I believe the battles currently depicted focus too much on the successes of the Great Powers (France, Britain, Russia) and on the defeats of the Greek Revolutionaries, which discredits the true efforts made by the Greeks to gain their independence.

This website gives some info: http://www.agiasofia.com/1821/fort1821/struggle.html

It would be better for the people to know the whole truth (even all the 'minor' conflicts), and to acknowledge the true effort and sacrifice of the Hellenic people. Thanks.

GreekFreedom 05:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I am planning on fixing this article soon. As you said there are many significant article which have not yet been written. When I get around to working on this article I shall fix them. Thanks. Kyriakos 11:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

i think there has to be a section focusing on the massacres that took place during the rebellion, somehow the extent of them are greatly downplayed. As user "GreekFreedom" said himself, we have to "know the whole truth" about what happened..--laertes d 17:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading your comment and seeing your edits in Chios massacre, after seeing your edits in Kurdish people and your comment in Talk:Armenian Genocide , and after seeing that u "want" credible sources, but at the same time u quote a site named "greekmurderers", i find it difficult to press myself not to revert your edits. Hectorian 22:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hector what is wrong with my edit may i ask? You deleted the entire article just because it offends your greek pride. I used one Greek site and one jewish site for the massacres that took place in pellopennese. Then i made a quotation from greek murderers net although i know that site is far from being objective. Quotation comes from a foreigner historian not written by turks.

The same goes with Chios page, i took as my reference a greek site and the section of smyrna from an absolutely indepedent site..

For God's sake you simple cant delete articles just because you dont like them...

Im going to put them again now if you have any problems with them then find impartial sources disproving mine..--laertes d 23:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Im now asking again why my post is being deleted?. If you dont want hector, i may not use greekmurderers net.-i actually only made a quotation from there- But the massacres of peleponnese is a reality, thousands of turks, albanians and jews were killed.. --laertes d 00:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No one is disputing that. It will be included in a more NPOV manner (i.e. compared and contrasted with the atrocities committed against the Greeks). Thulium 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I can provide some non-turkish sources which says the number of deaths in Chios were either 20.000 or 25.000.The number 42.000 might be an exaggeration..

Refferin to the painting of Delacroix

"The Massacre at Chios With great vividness of color and strong emotion it pictured an incident in which 20,000 Greeks were killed by Turks on the island of Chios."

http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~zhw/csc691/tour1pic4detail.html

"On the island of Chios 25,000 Greeks are killed while in the Peloponessos the Greeks kill 15,000 of the 40,000 Turks living there"

http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/revolution.htm --laertes d 00:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Or, we can rephrase and say that 100,000 Greeks perished in Chios (including those massacred, those died of diseases shortly after and those who were sold as slaves, and are unaccounted for ever since...). Hectorian 00:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that section is redundant in this article, but if you have your hearts set on it, so be it. It if it saying though it will have to be balanced (within the full meaning of the word). Thulium 01:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Paparrigopoulos (History of Greek Nation, Volume 6), speaks of 40,000 deaths on the island, while a total of 70,000 souls "perished". I don't think the current section is inaccurate.--Yannismarou 16:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

And please, laertes, do not present uncited sites and "Greek Tourist Guides" (?!!) as reliable history sources!!!--Yannismarou 16:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

And yanni im sure Paparrigopoulos, a greek historian, is the most objective and reliable source on the issue..Anyway, i didnt touch to that section. --laertes d 17:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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