Misplaced Pages

talk:What Misplaced Pages is not - Misplaced Pages

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"not solely yours"

I reverted the change from "not yours" to "not solely yours" to describe user pages. "not solely yours" implies that my user page is partially mine. I don't think this is correct. Martin 00:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well not yours implies that it is not under your jurisdiction at all! There's got to be some happy medium here. → JARED   02:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made my disagreement with this policy heard already, not only because it is in itself rediculous, but also because nobody can seem to agree on what the policy is anyway, or even how to word it. It would seem to me that, even though I disagree with it, "user pages are not exempt from the rules" and that "objectionable content will be removed" fits the bill, however the (in my view) pointless prerequisite for all policy here to be prefixed with "Misplaced Pages is not..." may prevent such a wording. 82.153.142.162 10:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Why not just remove the section altogether? It's mostly duplicating "Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site". Martin 14:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that and the section above it really don't fit. → JARED   15:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Misplaced Pages has a current and serious problem with abuse of the userspaces. Removing the section on userspaces dilutes and confuses the message. While it might possibly be consolidated with some of the earlier sections, the wording of this section has aspects not covered by the others. It should not be removed until we have consensus on replacement wording. Rossami (talk) 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
What aspects of "What your user page is not" are not covered by the section "Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site"? Martin 13:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The main one is probably that there's no ownership of the user page, you don't own it, and anyone can edit it. I think it's also worth emphasizing the point about userpages since they are so often abused. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Support removal. Roassami would you care to enlighten me on what this "current and serious problem" involves? I've still yet to see any evidence of a problem, and continue to fail to see how userpages affect the encyclopedia. I still don't see why we can't just leave people to put whatever they want on their userpage. The very name "user page" implies that it is the page of the user and nobody but the user - the question in my mind is why SHOULD other people be allowed to edit it? There is no reason for people to want to do that other than vandalism - it's not an article and the User Talk page is there for any communication other people might want to have with the user. What business would I possibly have editing your user page for instance? What would be the point? What would it achieve? What does it achieve by making user pages a communal editing space? What function do they possibly play if everyone can, are encouraged to, and do, edit them? Also you've got the problem of who is going to police this rule? How is it going to be enforced? What would even constitute a violation of the rule? If someone wrote "I own this page so don't edit it" on it? On the whole I think this policy is weak and poorly thought out beaurocratic nonsense. I don't see the necessity for such a policy nor do I see a problem with users having their own personal space to talk a bit about themselves.▫Bad▫harlick♠ 09:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of reasons that people can't put whatever they want on their user page. Some examples include soapbox ranting, copyright vios, attacks on other users, excessive self promotion, etc. And others can edit user pages to fix those issues. The point of a user page is to give people an idea who you are, not be a blank slate where you can do whatever you want. We're all here to make any encyclopedia, and generally we should be spending our time on that, not making elaborate user pages. Generally, people aren't going to edit other users' pages unless there is a problem - if there really is an issue, other editors will support the edits, and if the other editor is editing for bad reasons, other editors will likely revert it and support the person who's bage it is. And generally, if people write "I own this page so don't edit it", it is ignored or even deleted if the page has other issues that require editing. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As Milo said, there are many things which are inappropriate on a userpage and can become harmful to the project even though they are restricted to the userpage. I'm sure you've read WP:USER and it's Talk page archives but that's where the rationale is really laid out. WP:USER also established exactly what is and is not a violation of our standards. As to policing it, that's a function of WP:MFD - and if you track that page for a few weeks, you will see the evidence of the "current and serious problems" we are having. Rossami (talk) 16:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I will happily concede that a user page does not afford the freedom that a website does, but that to me seems only logical; I would have thought that it would be considered more specific than a website. A User Page implies that it is a page about the user, IE the person behind the name, but I can see how it could be misinterpreted to mean "you can do whatever you want here". Perhaps "User Bio" would be less ambiguous/open to interpretation? ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hi, there has recently been a large debate over Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump Controversy where one user has been saying the page does not violate anything here at Misplaced Pages:Not. This page hardly seems Encyclopedic over the many other celebrity fueds, and it's existance suggests that all tabloid celebrity topics are acceptable. Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia, not an extension of EW or ET or People or any of those other gossip magazines/shows. So, I was wondering if perhaps Misplaced Pages is not a Tabloid should be added. Thanks for the time, Scorpion 02:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

  • 1) Adding a new general rule to What Misplaced Pages Is Not in order to solve a specific problem with a specific article is not a good idea.
  • 2) I do think that Misplaced Pages has a structural problem in that people enjoy attacking celebrities they dislike, or are idologically opposed to, by adding true, but unflattering and unimportant material to the article. As WIkipedia is currently constituted, the best that can happen (and the best does often happen) is that the spitefully-motivated material becomes worded accurately, neutrally, and cites a published, reliable source, and that the overall balance of the article remains fair. What Misplaced Pages is unable to do is to declare gossipy or trashy information off limit. Misplaced Pages is not limited to "all the news that's fit to print." Misplaced Pages has an extremely strong cultural preference for retaining absolutely anything at all, regardless of trashiness or contributors' motivation, as long as it is neutral and is an accurate description of a published source.
  • 3) These structural characteristics of Misplaced Pages are (in my opinion) a problem with regard to articles about living people, and I think its widely recognized that it is a problem, as the Seigenthaler incident demonstrated. I don't think anyone, certainly not me, has any idea about how to solve it.
  • 4) One thing's for sure: adding a "WIkipedia is not a tabloid" section isn't likely to help. It conflicts with "Misplaced Pages is not censored," and I think that it is going to be virtually impossible to define what is meant by "tabloid material" in a way that is clear enough that two different editors with different points of view will nevertheless make consistent judgements about whether a piece of material meets the definition. 13:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

P. S. I haven't looked at the AfD discussion yet, but the particular article in question cites no sources at all and does not meet WP:V. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Historical significance, new events

"Misplaced Pages does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known."

While the remainder of this article is perfectly clear, this sentence has rather fuzzy wording. It seems to eigther make a jump, contradict itself, or refer to something that is not mentioned explicitly, depending on how you read it. After reading it over and over again it starts to make some sense, but I'm still not 100% sure I understand it right. Could somebody please explain or, even better, make this sentence understandable on first reading? Thank you! RToV 02:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

News reports. Misplaced Pages should not offer firsthand news reports on breaking stories. Misplaced Pages is not a primary source. However, our sister project Wikinews does exactly that, and is intended to be a primary source. Misplaced Pages does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known. See Current Events for examples.

— WP:NOT#OR
My own interpretation is that while WP can have articles on issues and events which are in the "here and now" (versus "last year"), we are not publishing news stories. That is, talk about the "War on Terror," but don't create an article which has to be updated each week to reflect the current U.S. DEFCON level. So WP can have articles on topics which are of historical significance (that is, not just last week's crime statistics), but not "breaking news." For me, objectivity also requires a time-sense objectivity, as well as point of view. I resist articles that are based on "the status today, right now," and prefer an article that gives the reader background, and if possible, bring the reader up to date.
Because each article is an evolving, living document, such a topic can be updated with recent developments and trends. "Developments and trends" does not mean "last night's news." Is this any clearer? Perhaps if you post the question with an article (or idea of an article) that you have in mind....? David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 03:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Very much clearer. After a great deal of careful reading and comparing, I think you've got the drift of both the part I understood and the part I didn't. Only in a completely different and much better wording. With some edits it could replace the current version. Shall we give it a try? RToV 12:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Long lists of people that just keep getting longer

I'm not sure if this policy covers this issue well enough. Here's a scenario. A page about special visual effects. On the page is a list of people who are "notable." It starts out with Wally Veevers, Albert Whitlock, Ray Harryhausen, Peter Ellenshaw, John Dykstra, Dougals Trumbull ... you get the idea. Suddenly the list starts growing. More and more names are added, Robert Abel, Gary Ralston, Greg Jein, Dennis Muren, Con Pederson... hey, they're notable, they've won awards, are credited by others, their names are on the films! They're supervisors on films, or they were interviewed on DVD extras, they created their own FX companies, whatever. Next you know, the list is 90 names long. According to a guideline or two, really the list ought to be a prose paragraph or at least names that could be worked into the article due to their notability (this is my interpretation of WP:LIST, WP:LISTV, WP:NOT#IINFO, and Five Pillars). But we really don't seem to have a bullet item that says "no long list of indiscriminate information." (Or do we, and I'm just blind today?) So there are arguments sprouting on a page I'm actually working, wherein some arguably notable people are adding themselves to the list, despite WP:COI and WP:NOT#SOAP. Complaints from editors that the list is too short. What's an editor to do? (Besides passionate apathy, that is.) Any opinions or suggestions welcome, I think we need to update this page so that we can at least strongly discourage overlong (43 lines?) lists within articles. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Splitting the longer list to a separate article, conforming with Misplaced Pages:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lists of people, seems like the best option. It would still allow for two or three of the most important people to be listed in prose, beneath the {{details}} link to the list. Neier 23:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:BIO has a section about such lists of college alumni (a subset of what you describe). This could bear expanding. In general long lists of people aren't particularly useful. >Radiant< 10:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Who cares? Left-handedness is an interesting phenomenon. Misplaced Pages is not paper: we can afford to have lists like this. JROBBO 11:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • OTOH, Misplaced Pages is not toilet paper, and such lists of trivia do have a tendency of getting deleted on AFD. >Radiant< 12:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
    • OTOOH, the original question was about a list of notable people, notable for contributions to their field. That is not trivia, and would stand a better chance at surviving AFD. Unlike left-handedness, there is a gray area at where the notability for visual effects would be cut-off; and, the limitations of prose in an article versus the limitations of a list exclusive for such a purpose would be different. Neier 13:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Provided all the notables already have articles, and there is nothing more to say within the field of notability about them. But, neither of those are very safe assumptions. Lists can be improved upon. "Wally Veevers, Albert Whitlock, ...." is not a very interesting list. But, generally, people are notable for a reason, and a list can give a summary of the main claim of notability much more concise than a category. If I was trying to remember the name of the visual effects artist who pioneered a way of doing stop-motion, scanning the list and finding "Wills O'Brien, stop-motion animation" would aid that research. Neier 13:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition - 'Names in other languages' sections

I always thought it was stated under "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" or "Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary" but it's not really specified. Examples of this are/were in Donald Duck, Pinocchio (1940 film) and Magica De Spell. It seems especially pointless since you can always go to the inter language links to see the translation. It also is always removed in featured article candidates. Garion96 (talk) 02:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring specifically to film titles, I think the original language title of the work is appropriate as IMDb does. Only that. Listing the Gadzookistan title of The Wicker Man in the en.wikipedia.org is silly; it's an English language film. Have you checked the Film Portal (style) talk pages to see if it's been raised there? If not, it should be,... feel free. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 00:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information on afd/cfd

A recurring problem I've seen on afd and cfd discussions is the seeming inappropriate application of the "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" section of this policy in nominations. Actually reading that section makes it clear that it is currently fairly limited in scope, listing fairly specific areas of consensus of certain types of information that is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages (ie Lists of FAQs, Travel Guides, How-To manuals, etc). The section's introduction even outright states that "...there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles are not simply" and proceeds to list specific items.

What bothers me is that it is becoming very frequent to see editors in afd/cfd give this section of WP:NOT as reasons for deleting articles and categories that have no seeming relation to the types of information cited. I have no problem supporting deletion of articles that actually violate that section of policy, but I do have a problem supporting a nomination when they are quoting a section of policy that doesn't seem to apply. Basically it boils down to someone thinking an article isn't "important", and cites this section of policy, even though it is not a broad-brush section intended to erase any article that is "unimportant". (A similar problem exists with nominations that simply state an article or category is "fancruft", for example, a term that has no actual use in policy or guidelines.)

So my suggestion to editors is to please use the appropriate section of policy or guidelines, rather than just quote "indiscriminate collection". If something isn't referenced, say that it's not referenced or original research. If it doesn't meet notability standards, mention notability and the appropriate notability guidelines. Don't just say "WP:NOT indiscriminate" unless it is actually one of the types of information included in that section, or use WP:NOT for articles that don't obviously fall under this policy.

Finally, if you feel I'm misreading this section of this policy, please feel free to post and let me know what I'm overlooking. My appologies for the short rant, but it seems a shame when that part of policy is used as a lazy way to handle potential deletion of articles that others have otherwise put up in good faith. My two cents; now back to work. :) Dugwiki 21:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The list in that clause was intended to be a set of illustrative and non-controversial examples, not an exhaustive list. It is still possible for something to be an "indiscrimate collection of information" without being on that specific list. The problem is that there are just so many things which an encyclopedia is not that we can't possibly list them all - and if we did, the list would be far too long to read or use.
Having said that, anything not on the specific list would have to be discussed and decided by the community on a case-by-case basis. If you think a particular use of the phrase is incorrect or overly broad, you certainly should challenge the statement in the deletion discussion, backing up your opinion with the relevant facts, logic and references to policy and/or precedent. For example, if Encyclopedia Brittanica does X, that's a pretty good argument that X is encyclopedic and that we should have a darned good reason for not allowing the same in Misplaced Pages. (Note: The converse of that example is not necessarily true.) Hope that helps. Rossami (talk) 22:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with you. Anything not on the list should be discussed on its own merits in afd/cfd. I think there are two problems, though, in how things currently go. One is that some people simply say "WP:NOT Indiscriminate" and nothing else, even when it's not something that has clear consensus in the policy. The other, lesser, problem is that this section of the policy is vague over just how broadly the section applies to information not specifically listed. All it says is that "there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries" without actually saying whether or not or how the policy might apply to those debated classes of entries. This leads, I think, to sometimes vigorous disagreements over what is and is "trivial information". I'd like to say I had a good way adjust the wording to lessen that problem, but unfortunately it's a complicated issue and I'm not even sure editors and admins here could reach a consensus on just how broadly the Indiscriminate section should be applied. So to sum up, Ross, I'm with you in that I think the best rule of thumb is to always specify exactly why you think something should or should not be deleted. Dugwiki 00:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that a sentence added to the main page along that line of reasoning (to avoid claiming WP:NOT without a backing argument) is a good idea. Neier 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
No - I think you're right— I'm sick of policy being misread to justify deletions. The same with "Misplaced Pages is not a directory" - no one can seem to tell me what a directory is and what it might involve. JROBBO 22:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely, many editors just use it as a loophole to cite an actual policy instead of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The periodic table? Just an indescriminate collection of information - delete it! --Milo H Minderbinder 22:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
"Misplaced Pages is not a directory?" That's fairly easy, actually. A directory is a listing provided for accessing entities. Misplaced Pages might have a similar listing of entities, even the same entities, but it is aimed at understanding those entities. Do you want a list of the major architects working today? Such a list would be encyclopedic, since you might be interested in researching your hypothesis that the majority of working architects today were trained in the Blah-Blah-Blauhaus School, or something similar. Do you want contact information for the major architects working today? That's a directory. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

1) There's nothing recent about any of this.

2) People say many irresponsible things in AfD discussions and always have, but that doesn't mean they carry much weight. By all means, go ahead and nominate the periodic table for deletion as an indiscriminate collection of information, and see what happens. It won't be deleted, because most editors will feel strongly that the periodic table is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If someone says article X is an indiscriminate collection of information and two-thirds of the people discussing the article agree, the likelihood (barring sock-puppetry, etc.) is that article X really is an indiscriminate collection of information. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If the AfD always went the way you just described (people pointing out that "XYZ is indiscriminate because...." or "XYZ is not indiscriminate because...."), then I doubt that the original message above would have been posted. The problem is that WP:NOT is bandied about without any backing arguments as to why the article/list is indiscriminate. Actually, since WP is not a democracy, if there is one discriminate use of the information, then regardless of how many objections (or the strength of said objections) there are, then it should not be deleted on the grounds of WP:NOT. Yet, I have witnessed AFDs where certain lists are legitimatized but still followed by a flood of WP:NOT deletion votes. I don't want to put words into the original poster's keyboard, but, I think that this is the gist of what he was trying to say. Neier 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I've likewise seen WP:NOT keep floods from time to time. People on both sides of the debate sometimes don't have an argument but pretend they do anyway, and there's no feasible way of stopping that. >Radiant< 08:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The two thirds thing just sounds like voting to me. If two thirds say WP:IDONTLIKEIT, those will be ignored. But if they say "WP:NOT indiscriminate", they still aren't providing a real argument but it's taken more seriously because they're citing a policy. Closing admins shouldn't count "votes" without reasoning behind them, but it happens. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
  • That is true, and a long-standing problem. However, the problem lies in the people, not in the process, so the solution is not to change the process but to tell those admins what they are doing wrong. >Radiant< 14:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you're correct this isn't a recent problem, and I hopefully didn't imply it was. It is a longer standing issue and it does reflect, at least in part, a misuse or misunderstanding of that part of the policy. My main hope is that by reminding people about it here, the discussion will help newer editors understand when and when not to cite "indisciminate info collection". And who knows, maybe there's a minor rewording that will help too. Dugwiki 18:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

One problem I see here is that the WP:NOT guidelines are not fixed - they are changeable. I have used the argument that "Misplaced Pages is not an almanac" since I'm sure that used to be on the list - but then when I went to check recently, it wasn't. This was used particularly in the recent sports Afds on FA Premier League results December 2006 and FA Premier League 2006-07 goalscorers. Are the WP:NOT rules to be determined by precedent? QmunkE 19:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"Alamanacs" was only on the policy page for a single day in December. It was added by Robdurbar on December 28 2006 and removed on December 29 2006 with the comment that there was no consensus on almanacs. There apparently has been no consensus on that being in the policy. Dugwiki 20:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the two example debates mentioned above that referred to "alamanacs" also took place during those dates. So apparently those particular debates actually referred to something that was put on the policy page prematurely and removed almost immediately the next day. Dugwiki 20:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Being one of the AfDers who has recently fallen foul of this, I thought I ought to add my opinion. Indeed, I was just heading here to bring up the very same issue.

I think it needs to be made clearer whether not an indiscriminate collection of information is to be used only for the specific examples or not. I didn't really pick this up from the policy and hence quoted it referring to the general case rather than one of the specifics. To make things a little more confusing, Misplaced Pages:List of bad article ideas lists Extremely specific details which only a dedicated few care about - the way which I was using the policy - pointing at the policy in question. Yet this is not listed as a specific example in the policy.

Clarification is required as to whether the nine listed 'nots' are exhaustive or just a few examples. Or, as it would seem, that you may go beyond the listed examples, if you give a good rationale as to why the policy applies. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 11:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Policy is not a computer program, and Wikipedians are not processors. Misplaced Pages is the sum of what Wikipedians actually do. They write pages called policy, they express opinions in AfD, they cite policy in AfD in hopes of influencing others, WIkipedians who are admins read the AfD and may or may not do something predictable, etc.
Policy pages tend to specifically spell out the things WIkipedians really are agreed on. WP:NOT says Misplaced Pages is not a directory of "Genealogical entries." That's because we really agree on that. If someone puts in an article that is just a collection of geneaological entries, it will get a consensus for deletion. The people editing WP:NOT are savvy enough that this would not be in the policy page if it were not the case.
If a class of topic isn't mentioned in WP:NOT, that does not meet that Wikipedians consider it encyclopedic, or that anyone is entitled to submit articles about them. It just means that the results of taking such an article to AfD are not going to be perfectly predictable.
If someone gives as a reason that an article is "an indiscriminate collection of information," it's reasonable to point out that it is not one of the specific examples mentioned in WP:NOT, in hopes of influencing other people's opinions. But it is still all a question of judgement. There are surely things that most WIkipedians would judge to be indiscriminate collections of information that are not specifically mentioned here.
They only will get mentioned on the WP:NOT policy page if a) there's a clear consensus about a brightline kind of indiscriminate information, and b) we get enough articles of that kind that there's some good in mentioning them here.
I could create an article on "the contents of my bookshelves." It might well get deleted as "indiscriminate information." It would not be a very good defense for me to say "WP:NOT doesn't forbid it."
There would be no point in adding a provision about "articles about the contents of bookshelves," though, unless it was clear that we were really getting a lot of them, so there would be some point in trying to warn people off. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Just to reply to your bookshelf example and comments, DPB, an article about the contents of your bookshelves would fail verifiability (since it's not from a verifiable independent publisher) and also wouldn't meet notability guidelines. So there would be no reason to try to apply WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE to your personal bookshelf article, because it would be deleted for other reasons.
Which brings me to the point that the problem is that editors are referring to the wrong policy or guideline. If something isn't notable, they should refer to WP:Notability. If it's not verifiable, use WP:V. Those two references alone cover the majority of articles that editors might consider "unencyclopedic" or "trivial". Using WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE for things not listed there likely means you are misapplying that part of the policy and should instead be looking at other policies or guidelines for support of your argument for deletion. So just because WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE doesn't apply doesn't necessarilly mean the article meets other standards for inclusion, and in cfd an afd debates I'd rather focus on the things that do clearly apply. Dugwiki 18:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

indiscriminate adj. done or acting at random or without careful judgement.

— Oxford Concise Dictionary
I concur and appreciate all the arguments and suggestions put forth here -- how's that for wussiness? Two distinct issues occurred to me reading the initial post: that "indiscriminate" is a subjective term and must be discussed and argued, you can't just say "it's indiscriminate, so nyeahh!" and be done ... also, notability is subjective, and must be discussed, and the very idea of discriminating what is included in WP is establishing notability and writing about it in a encyclopedia fashion. So discriminating writing happens twice, once when establishing an article's notability and writing about here, and then when editing the article making sure it doesn't have humongous lists of information, or endless detail that derails the article from being a concise summary and makes it a thesis. (One example: the Bodhran page had two screenfuls of "Players" listed, and more coming weekly. It was becoming endless, as "notability" was being interpreted loosely.)
There are several things I find indiscriminate: lists of sports results, films in which a character stubbed out a cigaret on the ground, characters in Batmana comics. These are lists. There are also complete articles on episodes of Heroes (tv). Would I reach for the Brittanica for a list of story outlines of THE TWILIGHT ZONE? Hell no. But people insist that episode synopses of FIREFLY, HEROES, and whatever need to be in here, they're notable (maybe) and the descriptive articles very discriminating (maybe; OR and NPOV additions are expunged quickly and mercilessly).
Problem with this policy is that perhaps the "indiscriminate collection of information" section does not establish that these issues have to be discussed on a case by case basis, and that the policy itself can't a) be a comprehensive list of examples, and b) be ruled out for cases which aren't listed in teh policy at a given moment. Almanac was a great example, it was added quickly, while there were sports results AfD discussions going on, and a complaint was registered that the policy was written to support those discussions, so the editor reverted himself out of decorum and fair play (and I applaud him; not everyone has the guts to admit a mistake and correct it without coercion). I think it's fair to add it now after checking the discussion on this page (above). But the original poster raises a very important issue: we need to edit this policy section so that it doesn't sound all-inclusive or final. Hope I helped the discussion, David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 01:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a good proposal to police the contents of lists. However, you've left out one distinction that I think we need to consider. Discriminate (requiring judgement, as defined above) also implies that a choice must be made, to see if a particular item on the list falls on the "include" or "exclude" side of the bar. Lists can be split to two groups: those which can be completed, and those which cannot (and which the contents need to be discriminately decided). A list of people who played a particular instrument is practically unending. A list of people who played a particular instrument and who are notable for it (or who promoted it, etc) need not be specifically limited by our policy, but is better off to be maintained by people familiar with the subject. Having the policy here to say "it's ok to include some, but not others" is a good idea.
On the other hand, list of episodes, list of video games, list of sports seasons, list of olympic results, and others can be expected to have a clear end. Some of those, I am more interested in than others; but I don't consider the contents within any of those lists to be indiscriminate, because the bar for inclusion is binary (did it exist, yes/no). In other words, no expert in the field of Olympics is needed to decide whether the 1994 figure skating finals should be included or not. There is nothing to discriminate in those lists.
Regarding sports results (and it probably applies equally to video games, movies, books, voting results, whatever), in Brittanica's article about the Chicago Bears, I doubt that they mention any specific season outside of 1985 in much detail. That's because they need to decide what fits in their encylopedia. In our case, we have a featured list Chicago Bears seasons which goes (and links) into detail unimagined by Brittanica. Is each season notable? Well, in 1957, the 1957 Bears season was notable. WP:N#Notability is generally permanent, etc. The 1957 Bears season article does not mention the scores of each game, but, by 2005, not only are we including results, but full rosters, TV announcers for each game (!), etc. Within that article, there is a discriminating line to draw; however, my opinion is that it is south of the results and rosters. Would I like to click out from Mike Ditka, to see who else was on the roster in 1966; and more importantly, is it important? I think so. Would I like to click out from Troy Aikman to see what other games he announced with Joe Buck, and is it important? No. Why did the Bears go 5-7 in 1957? Who beat them? Having the list of results somewhere (I don't know if it is best to keep all together in one article for the league, or duplicate every game twice, once in each team's article for the season) supplies added context, is WP:V, and is not indiscriminate because the season is made up of a set number of games (16, 82, 162, 30, depending on the league). Neier 04:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I too have become increasingly annoyed with the editors citing this section without further explaining why an article is "indiscriminate information". It's nothing short of WP:IDONTLIKEIT except using a vaguely worded section on a policy. But I think that can be easily fixed by explaining that the burden of proof rest with the editors who use that argument in a deletion debate and not with the editors defending the article. --Farix (Talk) 00:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
If I can add my voice to this much-needed discussion, I think part of the problem is this: the statement, quite rightly, says Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This means that Misplaced Pages (through AfD, consensus or policy) may well discriminate against certain types of articles, and types which have community consensus as improper are listed under WP:NOT. Several editors, however, are invoking WP:NOT as if it is unambiguous policy against what they see as "indiscriminate information" - "Lists of fictional entities" are a favourite, as lists with somewhat broad criteria - often backed up by an assertion that the list could "possibly" contain thousands or millions of entries, and sometimes including a ludicrously broad or narrow list example as a straw man ("What next? List of people with fingerprints?"). I am strongly of the opinion that unless something is listed by consensus under WP:NOT, then the community can and should be trusted to keep or delete the article in question, and be sensible enough to maintain that article to reasonable standards of quality, verifiability and notability (such as only including source materials notable enough for an article themselves in the case of fiction lists). --Canley 02:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change to "indiscriminate information" intro paragraph

Here's a suggestion to chew up and discuss and maybe we can get something we can all live with.

Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

While there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles are not simply everything about anything. In any acceptable topic class, a threshold of notable and relevant detail must be established by editors reaching a consensus, and excessive information or trivial details are discouraged.

Some examples include: (continues bulleted list)

— proposed new introduction

Now, let's discuss. Don't mind my feelings, be bold. ;) David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 01:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahh I like it, but it is somewhat vague for policy, no? I frequently use reasoning along these lines in AfDs - for example, Misplaced Pages is not the place for articles on every conceivable character, village, animal, star chart, and brand of beer mentioned in Lord of the Rings. But, such an argument ultimately goes nowhere because another editor will just say "yes it is." Having policy language that is exceedingly vague only exacerbates this problem, I think.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 05:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I smell a loophole. -- Ned Scott 11:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you specify what is vague? I don't think I removed anything that's in the policy now, only added the statement about "excessive information or trivial details are discouraged" with a link to Misplaced Pages:Notability. Can you try a rewrite of what I put above that isn't as vague? David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 16:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I'd prefer the phrase "a threshold of notability for an article subject" instead of "notable and relevant". The word "relevant" isn't, that I recall, ever discussed anywhere else in the guidelines, and it sounds like it would be an easily debated characteristic. Notability, however, has received a large amount of discussion and there are numerous guidelines regarding determining the notability of a subject.
In fact, I think a large number of articles which editors call "indiscriminately collected info" actually fail on notability grounds. To use the "books on my bookshelf" example, an article about books I personally own fails notability requirements because there are no independently published articles about my book collection. So even if some people happen to find the information "relevant" or "useful", it still fails on notability grounds because it hasn't crossed the notability threshold of independent analysis or review.
Also, I noticed that most of the items now listed in WP:NOT#IINFO aren't there because the information is "trivial". They're listed because of copyright concerns, or concerns about Misplaced Pages giving formal advice, or notability concerns or style concerns. For example, a FAQ isn't enyclopedic in format, but the information might be rewritten as prose. Information from a memorial should be about someone who already meets notability guidelines. How-to guides are excluded because Wiki can't be held responsible for giving advice; it's only here to give (hopefully) factual information. And plots can run afoul of copyright issues.
So all the things listed, though they might be accurate, have legitimate reasons for exclusion from Wiki. But the reasons transcend that the article is "trivial" or "irrelevant". Rather, they stem from notability and verification, copyright and liability issues. Therefore I think it best if this section focus on somewhat objective and well-discussed things like notability, verification, copyright and liability and not get into subjective debates about what is or isn't "trivia". Dugwiki 18:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Nope, notability is a guideline and has no real business being linked to from a policy in a manner which endorses it, and certainly a guideline should not be described as something which "must be established by editors reaching a consensus". The wording is fine as is. Steve block Talk 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Good point. Sometimes I forget that WP:Notability is a guideline, not a policy. So unless that changes, I think you're correct that policies shouldn't refer to notability requirements. Dugwiki 22:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've been involved in drafting a few notability guidelines, and I've been clear in discussion and in the page's text that they aren't deletion tools but are rather meant as advice to newcomers pondering their chosen subject's merits for inclusion. For example, I want to write an article on foo, so I check our notability guidance to see if foo is notable. However, once it is created editor Y can't list ot for deletion as failing notability criteria. They should cite an actual policy. In no way should we be citing guidelines as reasons for deletion. Guidance is something which is offered and can be rejected. Policy is something to be followed. Consensus is a policy, and I do find it worrying sometimes that a consensus opposing a guideline is trumped by the guideline. The checks and balances need to operate in the correct manner, and well written and sourced articles need to be evaluated as such, not measured against a guideline. Steve block Talk 19:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't care for the proposed language. It strikes me that simply adding words to the effect of "What follows are examples where consensus has been reached, but this list is not exhaustive. Absence from this list does not mean that the policy does not apply." would go a long way toward addressing problems. By the way, can someone point me toward where the ongoing discussion on items to include is taking place? Otto4711 22:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem with that suggestion, Otto, is that the sentence "Absence from this list does not mean that the policy does not apply" gives editors no guidance at all as to when it does apply. Let me put it this way. Assume hypothetically we removed all the classes of entries listed in WP:NOT#INFO from that section. All you'd have left is the first two sentences: "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. " Those sentences give no guidance and imply nothing about how to decide whether or not to include otherwise accurate information. Thus the only information of any value in this section, currently, is the specific examples of classes of information that have consensus for which things might be true but still shouldn't be included in Misplaced Pages.
Notice that even if you add your suggested sentence and say "What follows are examples where consensus has been reached, but this list is not exhaustive," how would you know if an example that isn't listed falls under this section? It's not as if there's a clear factor linking all the examples in that list. They're independent types of articles that have varying reasons for exemption.
So unfortunately I don't think the "not exhaustive" sentence will help. I think the approach you have to take is to add new broad classes of information as needed which a broad consensus of editors agree shouldn't be included. For example, if the editorial consensus is that "trivia" shouldn't be included, and the word "trivia" can be accurately defined, then you could add a "no trivia" portion to WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE saying that articles should consist almost entirely of "non-trivial" information. Dugwiki 23:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a fanzine

Someone brought this up in a thread at WT:COMIC and I thought it was quite a useful point. The point is that whilst Misplaced Pages is not paper, it is also not a fanzine. Just thought I'd bring it here to generate some discussion and see if we can't take it a little further. Steve block Talk 13:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"Trivia" mentioned in five pillars, but not here

I noticed that WP:Five Pillars includes the sentence "Misplaced Pages is not a trivia collection, a soapbox, a vanity publisher, an experiment in anarchy or democracy, or a web directory," but that the word "trivia" is never actually discussed in policies. The best I could find dealing with a description of what "trivia" means is the essay Misplaced Pages:Trivia, which is unfortunately an essay is considered a subjective opinion and doesn't carry the same consensus weight as a guideline. I also noticed that the terms "soapbox" and "web directory" are explained in more detail here in WP:NOT, and "Vanity" is discussed on the guideline Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest.

So it appears that the word "trivia" is left largely undefined by policies and guidelines. But the word is also tossed around in afd and cfd discussions with great frequency, in many cases with vigorous editorial debate about whether an article actually falls under the qualifier of "trivia". Given the broad power of the word "trivia" on deletion debates, is it worth exploring the creation of an actual trivia guideline of some sort? Does Misplaced Pages even have enough consensus on what the term means to form such a guideline? And if not, is there any consensus on how to interpret what that means in terms of the Five Pillars?

The reason I mention it here is that a number of editors seem to link WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE to trivia. So perhaps WP:NOT is a good place to start discussion on the topic. Also, it's possible that there's something I'm overlooking, and I'm pretty sure the editors who follow this page have been around the block enough to know if there's a guideline that already covers this. (The only other thing I could find on that topic was Misplaced Pages:Avoid trivia sections in articles, which deals more with the matter of trivia lists being poor stylistically, and that the information should be presented within prose form in the article itself assuming the information is notable.) Any thoughts? Dugwiki 18:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Five pillars has morphed over time from "a collection of primary source documents" to "triva collections". Happened around May to October last year, with an intermediate stage of "a collection of source documents or trivia". Trivia itself was superceded for roughly a year by Misplaced Pages:Importance, which itself became Misplaced Pages:Notability, before it was resurrected late 2005. I'd guess most people use trivia as a shorthand term for "not worthy of note", i.e. not notable. However, having witnessed some frightening afd's recently, I think the issue is less that people are using policy wrong, which is absolutely true in my opinion, but that it has become a clique, and is not representative of Wikipedian opinion as a whole. Steve block Talk 19:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

What would it to take to forbid long, pointless lists of pop culture references?

Couldn't this policy expressly discourage editors from creating the sort of endless pop culture references that dominate many otherwise well-written, well-organized articles? Could you, for example, edit the WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE list to include item:

"10. Lenghthy lists of pop culture references."

I have been guilty of adding items to such lists, but I readily admit they are distracting and significantly degrade the quality of encyclopedia articles. As mentioned in the discussions above, there are guidelines and essays that deal with trivia, but it would be nice to address this issue as part of an "official policy".--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two problems with this suggestion. One is that not all editors are opposed to pop culture sections, so it's not obvious that there is consensus to having a policy against lengthy ones. Secondly, the length of a pop culture section sounds like a stylistic concern as opposed to something that policy would deal with. The items listed in WP:NOT aren't listed because they detract from the "style" of an article, but rather are there for practical reasons such as enforcing verifiability of information, removing material that might present legal trouble (eg How-To advice), and removing material that could be overwhelming for editors to properly maintain or that suffers from POV issues.
So while it's a good idea stylistically to keep pop culture lists pruned to a reasonable length, it's not an issue that necessarilly has strong consensus on how to handle it nor does it seem to rise to the level of a policy concern. Just my opinion.

Dugwiki 17:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Two things would help.
  • First, being reasonably assertive about requiring source citations. If the appearance of the Statue of Liberty in Alfred Hitchock's The Saboteur was actually important, somebody will have mentioned it in a publication.
  • Second, if there were a general consensus that nobody cares about "I Spy" contests to see who can spot the largest number of passing glimpses, people could start diligently removing such entries from such lists. A story in which the Statue of Liberty carries on an extended conversation with another statue (O. Henry's "The Lady Higher Up"), or plays an extended scene as a character in the story (the movie Ghostbusters 2) is worth mentioning. A movie or video game that includes a glimpse of the Statue of Liberty to establish that the location is New York is not. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
And your first requirement would effectively cover the second. My favorite is "veiled" references to Scientology (List of Scientology references in popular culture) which boils down to "I think I spy, maybe" and including every instance of that. But it is so dearly loved by many. --Justanother 17:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a dumping ground

Misplaced Pages is a not a dumping ground for all those heavily biased opinions that no RS will touch. Controversial material goes: biased source >>> RS >>> wikipedia. If it can't be found in an RS then it has no place here.

What do you think? I know that WP:V and WP:RS cover it but I think stressing the "not a dump" has value. --Justanother 05:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes citing opinions from all sides of a debate, including the extremely controversial ones, has value - but yes, they do need to have references. If it can't be backed up as debatable opinion with sources, then it should go, yes, but that's already covered by WP:V and WP:RS as you say. There's no need to expand on this with metaphoric references that people won't understand. JROBBO 06:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the current page already covers this sufficiently. I concur with JROBBO, sometimes controversial material can find its way in, with citations. Your proposed addition would just add more metaphors, which can (not necessarily does) weaken a guideline/policy page. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 18:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, controversial material often finds its way in in the circle I travel in (alleged cults) and the only citation is to the heavily biased POV site without support of a 3rd-party RS. In my circle I almost find that to be the rule rather than the exception. Certainly, my suggestion can be reworded without a metaphor. --Justanother 18:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Burgerking.

Following the actions of a few editors in insisting it's their way or the highway, I'm highly tempted to add "Misplaced Pages is not Burger King. You do not get it your way." --Barberio 18:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a separate official policy for what I can gather. Try WP:OWN, which states that no-one owns an article, to the point where they disallow other people from making changes. --tgheretford (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I was also thinking more along the lines of "Misplaced Pages is not an experimental form where you can be unique and different. Editors are still expected to follow certain forms and methods." and "Misplaced Pages is not there to make you feel special for knowing the secret handshake.". --Barberio 01:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There are some instances where you'll have it your way, when it is a good idea and upholded by consensus. It's more like "Misplaced Pages is McDonalds; your ideas are mixed with those of others". — Deckiller 01:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
A sign I saw at BurgerKing yesterday: "Push. You can have it your way and pull all you want but the door can be pretty stubborn." -- Donald Albury 16:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this...

Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in anarchy or individualism.

Misplaced Pages is not an experimental form where you can be unique and different. Editors can still be expected to follow certain forms and methods, and above all to follow consensus decision making and not take ownership. Your ideas will be mixed in with others, and will be revised and altered as part of consensus decision making and editing.

would be useful? --Barberio 02:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

  • That would be redundant with "Misplaced Pages is not anarchy". At any rate, you appear to be trying to modify policy to get an edge in a dispute you're already forum shopping over. That's not particularly productive. >Radiant< 09:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Radiant, please suspend your personal attacks and wikistalking of me. You yourself have been editing the project pages in order to make your argument stronger - ]. If your behaviour continues in this disruptive and abuse manner, I will raise the issue in an user conduct RfC. --Barberio 13:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • It might surprise you to learn that I've been editing this page since 2005, and I've had it watchlisted for most of the time since then, and that I am a regular contributor to the village pump. The fact that you've been forum shopping is not a personal attack, considering the many different forums where you've attempted to bring up the matter of PER. On the other hand, accusing people of wikistaling, disruption and abuse is a personal attack. So cut it out already. >Radiant< 13:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Read what I posted above? Did I mention your essay there *anywhere* there? No? Then... Gee, that means you just accused me of doing something I didn't do. You have been bullying me in order to get your way ever since the stupidness on WP:EL, and it should stop now. --Barberio 13:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, that's another personal attack. Anyway, I said that you "appear to be trying to modify policy to get an edge in a dispute you're already forum shopping over". That's precisely what you seem to be doing here. Your remarks clearly indicate this proposal is in reaction to a dispute you're involved in; if it's not the PER dispute I'd be happy to hear what this is actually about? >Radiant< 13:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Never mind. I'm going to take an indefinite leave from the wiki since I'm fed up with Radiant's bullying selfish attitude. --Barberio 13:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Not an Almanac?

I'm kind of a newbie to editing Misplaced Pages (long time reader, though) and I'm curious if there should be an added provision that the Misplaced Pages is not a collection of facts and statistics (i.e. not an almanac) Perhaps this is already covered under "1.8 Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information", but I think it could be made more clear, to prevent pages like 1963_German_Grand_Prix (and thousands of others like it) which really do not belong in an encyclopedia, they belong in an almanac. Or perhaps Misplaced Pages is seeking to serve as both? Like I said, I'm new at this. GileadPellaeon 07:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Upon further reading of this talk page (which I probably should have done before posting, oops), it appears that the almanac debate has surfaced before. But perhaps there could be some discussion of it separately from the discussion of Notability and whatnot else? I'm not saying almanac-esque information is not notable, just that it's not encyclopedic.GileadPellaeon 08:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • We have such pages as WP:AVTRIV, and the section here that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminatory collection of information. Does that help? Such almanac-like tables tend to end up on WP:AFD and get deleted (among others, because they tend not to be updated, and there are sports results sites that cover the information better and faster). >Radiant< 12:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Can't see anything overly wrong with 1963 German Grand Prix, seems to have a place within the information chain. Not sure we should have a broad policy which would allow for outright deletion of such useful information. Steve block Talk 15:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • There is currently no policy against almanac type information. In fact, a "not an almanac" clause was added by one editor to WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE but was deleted after about one day due to lack of consensus. The only guideline regarding almanacs that I'm aware of is the WP:AVTRIV style guideline that Radiant mentioned, which recommends that almanac style information be presented within the text of an article as opposed to a bullet-point list of facts. However, this does not preclude the existence of list articles, for example, nor does it imply that such information should be deleted entirely. Rather, it comments on the recommended style used to present the information as opposed to whether or not actual information itself is worthy of inclusion. Dugwiki 17:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Policy name

I realise this policy has been around for a while, and many editors are no doubt fond of it, but it just struck me that the name is a bit uninformative. Could the name be changed to Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia? This would seem more logical than the current name. AndrewRT(Talk) 19:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I think everyone "knows" that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. That's what's good about the name of this meta-article. The name is supposed to remind everyone that they can't use Misplaced Pages as their own free vanity press, a web site to post whatever they're personally interested in without regard to whether it belongs in an encyclopedia. Netuser500 19:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
There's already Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. --Milo H Minderbinder 19:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

We need to remove the part about plot summaries

I believe we need to remove the part about plot summaries. There are many plot summary articles that keep getting AfD'd and keep getting kept. People like me might stop nominating them for deletion if we removed that unenforced part of the policy. Netuser500 19:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There are also a lot of plot summary articles that are nominated and that get deleted. So by similar reasoning you could argue that the section should remain in place to help reduce the number of such articles that are ultimately created. Dugwiki 19:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)