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Evidence for antisemitism

This article claims that the conspiracy theory is antisemitic. However, there is no evidence provided anywhere within. This speculation should either be substantiated or removed. Wthompson2009 (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The article says it is so because the WP:RS say that it is so - no RS on the topic disagree. Newimpartial (talk) 15:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

There are definite parallels between Cultural Marxism, Cultural Bolshevism (a theory from the Nazis), and more general anti-semetic conspiracy theories (Jews rule the world, Jews run the media, Jews are trying to destroy Western/Christian civilization). In fact, there have been several suggestions to merge the articles on Cultural Bolshevism with the articles on Cultural Marxism (See Talk:Cultural_Bolshevism#Merger_Proposal). William S. Lind gave a talk on "Cultural Marxism" to a Holocaust Denial Conference, and hence Paleo-conservatives are responsible for early efforts to popularize the theory among antisemites (Lind even claims the origins of the theory were the politics of the Wiemar Republic era of Germany). Academics have also commented on these various connections to Nazism and antisemitism. Finally, it's been popularized on 4chan, and the topic of the antisemitic connections came up around the Suella Braverman scandal. All of these events/facts have reliable sources, and so that commentary is valid to include and is not WP:OR. --115.64.184.49 (talk)

You are objectively wrong. French Post Modernism is also called cultural marxism and it had very few if any jews involved. And it's not a conspiracy theory when the foundational "intellectuals" of the Frankfurt school can be quoted verbatim as saying that it is their intention to infiltrate schools of the west and promote marxist theory. Lind could give a talk on video games to a Holocaust Denial Conference, that wouldn't make video games a far right antisemitic activity. Your entire premise relies on tenuous equivocations from varying sources of a wide disparity, effectively culminating in a conspiracy theory of its own that it's somehow the "far right" responsible for promoting an idea that's been promoted out-right in the published letters and works of Adorno and Horkheimer.Crun31 (talk) 20:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that argument isn't going to fly. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Martin Heidegger who can be said to be the inspiration behind postmodernism wasn't a Jew or a Marxist, but a member of the Nazi Party. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

So? TFD (talk) 22:31, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

So, it is highly unlikely that he was involved in a Judaeo-Marxist conspiracy. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The article ties the theory to ideas that are anti-Semitic. It doesn't have to explain why those ideas are anti-Semitic. TFD (talk) 12:35, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Probably the ideas you address are anti-Semitic. However, it is falacious to assure thay, since components of A are anti-Semitic (or related to anti-Semitism) ergo, A is anti-Semitic.

The point is that there is no evidence to state the concept of cultural marxism is anti-Semitic. Patriarca de Alejandria Santiago I (talk) 18:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

That could possibly be true, but Misplaced Pages lets WP:RS speak, we never ventilate our own opinions. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Accusing people of Anti-Semitism is a not a neutral viewpoint. Pointing out that a large number of members shared Jewish heritage is similar to pointing out that members of the Thule Society all had German heritage. or that the 9/11 Hijackers were all Muslims. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Empiricism is neutral. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Otherwise, we could call Feminism Misandrist, because the feminist movement and its ideology are often accused of being such. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Get that published in reliable sources, and get the other reliable sources to retract what they said about antisemitism, and we can consider changing the article. Until then, you are just a random person on the internet whose irrelevant opinions are outweighed by reliable sources.

Read WP:RS to start learning how Misplaced Pages works. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

You should read reliable sources about the topic, instead of articles written by proponents of the theory. Conspiracy theorists can write very convincingly and people who have no other knowledge about a topic are easily mislead.

You should also be aware that most anti-Semitic literature is not overt.

TFD (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

2021-07 Postmodern Neo-Marxism‎

I created Postmodern Neo-Marxism‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) as a redirect to Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, and it was expanded yesterday. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 07:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

It's been reverted back to a redirect. Sad to see such a lovely stub with information sourced to high quality reliable institutions like PragerU and the "Jordan B Peterson Clips" YouTube channel go. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 09:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

If "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" is a synonym for "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory", then that should be mentioned in the Cultural Marxism page, along with a rationale. Otherwise, the redirect itself is a form of original research. Antiquark (talk) 13:39, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, it is more reasonable to posit that Marxists and Postmodernists hate each other. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I don’t really think thats how OR work vis-a-vis redirects, what do you base that on? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The author of the redirect decided that the two terms are actually synonyms. What is this decision based on? There has to be some decision process, otherwise people would be able to make redirects willy-nilly to equate any topic with any other topic. Antiquark (talk) 17:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Conflating between Postmodernism and Marxism seems to be Peterson's wild guess. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Antiquark: WP:RNEUTRAL covers some ground regarding this. I think if reliable sources don't make the connection between "Postmodern Neo-Marxism" (the Jordan Peterson neologism) and the cultural marxism conspiracy theory then the redirect is probably problematic, but if reliable sources do then the redirect is fine. The correct way to resolve that if you do think it's problematic would be to nominate it for deletion at WP:RFD. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 07:19, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

It seems that Antiquark thinks they can get the redirect deleted at RfD and then re-create the stub article at Postmodern neo-Marxism. Is that really what you were proposing, Volteer? Newimpartial (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh no, I meant if they thought it should just be deleted. Apologies if I was not very clear about that. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 09:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm nearly positive that Peterson has never used the term 'Cultural Marxism', so it's inaccurate to say he popularized it into mainstream discourse. FifthAcaciaColumn (talk) 11:54, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

True, but irrelevant: he accuses Postmodernism of being Marxism 2.0. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the second part, but Peterson does sometimes use 'Cultural Marxism'. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request to Amend title or remove the page. "Cultural Marxism" is not a "conspiracy theory". The title and subsequent content are amateurish attempts at controlling the narrative around an intellectual topic in order to demonize anyone who would critique primarily but not exclusively the various schools of critical theory and their influence in cultural institutions. The use of Nazi imagery including the yellow star and a photo of Goebels is so obviously an attempt to smear and silence criticism. Additionally, citations from prominent intellectuals who are critical of critical theory are missing. Instead, interpretations through a leftist lens are offered. Any competent editor can find substantial and accurate critiquesand quotes regarding this concept from many people, including Peterson,Pinker, Paglia,Lindsay,Sowell and many, many others. Most interestingly, from those on the left who are/were influenctial in critical theory evolution: “The Revolution won't happen with guns, rather it will happen incrementally, year by year, generation by generation. We will gradually infiltrate their educational institutions and their political offices, transforming them slowly into Marxist entities as we move towards universal egalitarianism.” ― Max Horkheimer ResidentAmerican (talk) 19:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Do you have any reliable sources to support your claim, or is this just your opinion. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:14, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Horkheimer never said that. Or do you have a book and page number to back it up? Mvbaron (talk) 06:09, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Your Horkheimer quote appears to be fake/unsourced. Also there is already a criticisms section on both The Frankfurt School Misplaced Pages page, and the Critical Theory Misplaced Pages page. However, none of the people you've listed as potential citations are academics of Social Studies, nor are they well versed in these schools of thought, so without the credentials they wouldn't be eligible to be cited for their criticisms. They need to show some knowledge before they can be considered reliable sources of criticism. See WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and WP:OR. 194.193.133.138 (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Link to Marxist cultural analysis

as someone with expertise on the Issue, it seems to me that somebody who disagreed with the implications of "Marxist Cultural Analysis" created a duplicate article, which does not have a neutral viewpoint, to try and discount it. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

"Cultural marxism" is sinonimous with "neo-marxism"

Consider Re-naming Article.

this isn't a conspiracy theory in the typical sense. It's literally an interpretation of the ideology propogated by the Frankfurt School Philosophers. "Conspiracy" requires connection between the participants. the Frankfurt School gives us that connection. if anything, the word "Theory" should be used, but Conspiracy does not fit. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

As I note in the subsequent section, this article, its title and its sourcing have been extensively discussed and have been subject to repeated, widely-parricipated RfCs. Your edits-which amount to the POV that "Cultural Marxism" is an intellectual movement and not the trope of a conspiracy theory- run counter to this broadly-based consensus. I have therefore reverted your BOLD changes. Newimpartial (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The claims of the conspiracy theory and the claims of The Frankfurt School don't line up. For instance, The Frankfurt School claimed an elite of corporate interests rule over the Culture Industry. Where as the conspiracy theory claims The Frankfurt School themselves are in control of the media, culture and academia. There's no semantics about it, it's a conspiracy theory, and runs contrary to what The Frankfurt School actually espoused. --194.193.147.6 (talk) 11:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The Frankfurt School scholars that created Critical Theory, whether derogatively or pejoratively called "cultural marxism" or not, are no longer exclusively or even primarily confined to "the frankfurt school". However the Scholar Antonio Gramsci and Rudi Dutschke both recognized that influence in the societal institutions was necessary to bring forth a more "marxist" or egalitarian world. see e.g. https://www.conservapedia.com/Cultural_Marxism#Dutschke 75.164.170.25 (talk) 05:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Conservapedia is not a legitimate source according to WP:RS, due to it not being WP:NPOV. Misplaced Pages avoids politics this way. --194.193.147.6 (talk)

″The Long march through the institutions is a Marxist concept formulated in 1967 by the West German student movement leader Rudi Dutschke. Dutschke reformulated Antonio Gramsci's philosophy of cultural Marxism with the phrase the long march through the institutions (German: Marsch durch die Institutionen) to identify the political war of position or incrementalism, an allusion to the Long March (1934–35) of the Communist Chinese People's Liberation Army, by means of which, the working class or "oppressed" would produce their own intellectuals, civil servants, and culture (dominant ideology) to replace those imposed by the bourgeoisie or "oppressor class."″ 75.164.170.25 (talk) 05:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

This is the page for the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. If you want to make a new page with sources that define Cultural Marxism outside of the conspiracy theory - you'd need to put in an article request elsewhere Misplaced Pages:Requested_articles. Currently the decision standing is that the term is non-notable in WP:RS left-wing writings. You'd need reliable academic sources defining exactly what "Cultural Marxism" is, otherwise you're doing something called WP:OR Original Research, which means coming to your own thoughts, rather than reporting the thoughts of qualified others. Misplaced Pages seeks to report facts and public opinion, stuff that's been expressed and vetted by an editor. You'd need something official which defines it. No one at The Frankfurt School used the term, and it's a fairly obscure term. It should be confined to those who actually used it (rather than The Frankfurt School). Not sure any major figure has used it to describe themselves. --194.193.147.6 (talk)

Conservapedia is not a legitimate source according to WP:RS, due to it not being WP:NPOV – indeed, and I strongly feel that any attempt to rename or otherwise rewrite this article to imply that "Cultural Marxism" has any existence beyond a bogeyman created by far-right conspiracy theorists (such as probably write half of Conservapedia) is likely to be summarily dismissed as nothing more than naked POV-pushing. Suggest abandoning this per WP:SNOW and the canonical Misplaced Pages approach to conspiracy theorists and other species of lunatic charlatans. Archon 2488 (talk) 12:30, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Consider Deleting Page

a page called "Marxist Cultural Analysis" already exists. This article does not come from a neutral viewpoint either. Jaygo113 (talk) 22:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

This article, its title and its sourcing have been extensively discussed and have been subject to repeated, widely-parricipated RfCs. Your edits-which amount to the POV that "Cultural Marxism" is an intellectual movement and not the trope of a conspiracy theory- run counter to this broadly-based consensus. I have therefore reverted your BOLD changes. Newimpartial (talk) 23:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

This article is actually biased, an ideology does not require a "conspiracy", just as there is no "Muslim conspiracy theory" of Jihad, and there are criticisms of the destructive nature of such ideologies. To call the criticism of those ideologies a "conspiracy theory", due to identifying a group of people (such as the prophet Mohammed, Karl Marx) who came up with the ideology, is to paint them with the same brush as the followers of David Icke. None of the quotes of the alleged proponents even alludes to a "conspiracy", but repeatedly refers to a "school", an "intellectual influence" and a "culture war". 75.164.170.25 (talk) 05:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Marxist cultural analysis is a completely different topic to this one. That article overlaps with this one only a little. It explains that the conspiracy theory exists and is a separate topic. It gives a very brief explanation of what the conspiracy theory is and refers readers who want to know more to this article. The two articles are distinct but complementary. Both articles are on valid topics. Each links to the other, so anybody finding the wrong one by mistake can easily find their way to the one that they actually want. There is no reason to delete either. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Many communists sources (such as the chinese communists), refer to it as "Cultural Marxism", such as http://rdbk1.ynlib.cn:6251/Qw/Paper/570796 "The History and Enlightenment of Cultural Marxism" . It states the same "conspiracy theory" conclusions about the ideology of "cultural marxism" 75.164.170.25 (talk) 06:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

"In the United States, the typical manifestation of cultural Marxism is "Political Correctness" or "Multiculturalism". For many Americans, "political correctness" is a vague term that refers to a series of scattered and unrelated views of "freedom" and "novelty" but lacking a unified character. Although these views sometimes appear extreme, highly sensitive and even confused, if you carefully observe the history of "political correctness", it will reveal a different face. Therefore, although it is sometimes referred to as "cultural liberalism" (cultural liberalism), it is more Appropriate, but a more accurate expression should be "cultural Marxism." In fact, "political correctness" is not a collection of accidental views. It is a carefully arranged attack on Western civilization. Its main goals are Christian faith and moral values; the other is narrow white men, especially white men. Considered to be the source of most violence and exploitation in the world."

Okay boomer... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't get why linking to a Chinese paper on American phenomena would be relevant? The paper was written in 2014, descriptions of the conspiracy theory already existed by then. The source of the theory has been tracked down already, to Lind and LaRouche.... The Lind/LaRouche claims can't be proven, and can specifically be proven wrong by looking at The Frankfurt School's writings. The Frankfurt School sort to de-militarize societies, and create systems of health care and education... for this it's claimed that they're trying to destroy western culture via installing communism? Sorry, that's a conspiracy theory. It's even proven out in bold faced lies conservatives have made about the topic. Pat Buchanan claims to be speaking from Herbet Marcuse's voice, but is in fact quoting himself from death of the west. I've seen multiple memes of fake Max Horkhiemer quotes. Hell, Breitbart even said that Adorno made music to turn people into necrophiliacs. There's a conservative by the name of Michael Walsh who claims The Frankfurt School were the devil, and have everyone trapped in a Matrix. So there's definitely conspiracy discourse on the topic. That a Chinese paper describes the conspiracy discourse? I don't know why that matters, it's outdated. Give me a Frankfurt School author saying "let's take over society and destroy it" then yeah, then it's not a conspiracy theory. Until then, it all looks pretty nutty, because it doesn't line up with Frankfurt School writings. --194.193.147.6 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Cultural Marxism is not an American phenomena, the abstract of the article says the following: ″The theoretical framework and methodology of cultural Marxism have important implications for the construction of contemporary Chinese literary theory and aesthetics, as well as cultural studies and the development of cultural industries. To develop and respect the multicultural ecology, and to commit to the realization of the political rights and ideological emancipation of the broadest masses of people in China is the political nature of cultural Marxism, and it is also the greatest inspiration given to us by cultural Marxism.″ 75.164.170.25 (talk) 22:41, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

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