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Akrotiri and Dekhelia part of Cyprus?
I added a topic to the talk page of this map, however got no answer in 1,5 year. Why are those two areas marked as Cyprus? Would also tag the last editor @Thom.lanaud: if you have some comments. Beshogur (talk) 18:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Requested Move
I think the page should be moved to Republic of Cyprus. This is because there is a page called Northern Cyprus which may confuse readers, and Republic of Cyprus is also the official name, so I think it should be moved. If there is any consensus then it should be moved. Thanks! --Jishiboka1 (talk) 00:19, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Requested move 29 December 2021
It has been proposed in this section that Cyprus be renamed and moved to Republic of Cyprus. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move |
Cyprus → Republic of Cyprus – I am proposing the move because of Northern Cyprus, and Cyprus (island). Similar to Ireland, I think This would work. Jishiboka1 (talk) 06:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I Believe, the republic is the primary meaning when tells about Cyprus. 125.167.58.198 (talk) 08:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support - there are significant issues with using the term "Cyprus" to refer exclusively to the republic that occupies the southwestern part of the island of Cyprus. I presume that Cyprus would become a disambiguation page - or better yet, a WP:CONCEPTDAB that covers the entire island and includes the sordid history of how it got that way. Red Slash 09:27, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. Clear common name and primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support moving to Cyprus (country) and Geography of Cyprus -> Cyprus (island). Beshogur (talk) 13:32, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. I know we do not work on precedent, but isn't this a similar situation to the island of Ireland and Republic of Ireland? —C.Fred (talk) 13:52, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support this move, and then move Geography of Cyprus to the "Cyprus" title. In my opinion, the island is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC per long-term significance, and the example of Ireland demonstrates the feasibility of this structure. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:40, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support and Move Geography of Cyprus -> Cyprus. This is very similar to Republic of Ireland (the country) and Ireland (the island) situation. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support per C.Fred and Rreagan007. This is similar (but not identical) to the situation of Ireland. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 19:19, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose, this situation differs from Ireland (country) in that Cyprus (country) is often treated as covering almost the entire island. This treatment leaves the island and modern country largely coterminous, similar to many other island countries. The article covers this topical overlap, and disambiguation will not aid it. As for the Geography of Cyprus article, I would oppose moving that as it suggests a much different scope than the current title, a scope which would duplicate that of this article. CMD (talk) 22:07, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, the good old perennial proposal. Apparently the last time this was actually proposed was in 2014, so I would say it's actually worth it to have a look at this in some more detail now. The central question here is whether Cyprus is simply a shorthand for the Republic of Cyprus, or whether sources that cover the island in more detail tend to distinguish between the two. Historically, this question was answered with a mixture of Google search results and personal insights - the former is unlikely to give a definitive answer to this question and the latter is, well, anecdotal. Generally, I would say that the assumption that Cyprus and the Republic of Cyprus are essentially synonymous has often been not very useful to my work as an editor predominantly focusing on Cyprus - it leaves one in the awkward position of always having to clarify that it's not simply Cyprus vs. Turkey/Turkish Cypriots in the Cyprus dispute. The relevant guideline is WP:WIAN, which states 'A name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity".' and then lists resources that are likely to be useful in terms of identifying this. Well, let's have a look around:
- The CIA World Factbook lists Cyprus as the conventional short form for the Republic of Cyprus. The same applies to the EU profile. However, these are hardly disinterested sources - they are naturally bound by their respective authority's position on the Cyprus dispute.
- Britannica's coverage of Cyprus appears to support this proposal - its article covers Cyprus as an island and distinguishes between the island and the Republic of Cyprus (see their infobox, for instance, which gives a balanced overview of the south and the north).
- Encyclopedic World Atlas of the Oxford University Press (2002) does use the two interchangeably.
- Works on Cyprus usually assume a lot of prior knowledge and it's difficult to find works that introduce the island from scratch. One that I was able to find was Europe, A Political Profile: An American Companion to European Politics from ABC-CLIO, which, again defines Cyprus as an island, with a clear distinction between the island and the Republic .
- The one true introductory work that I know and recommend about Cyprus: James Ker-Lindsay's The Cyprus Problem: What Everyone Needs to Know (Oxford University Press, 2011) clearly makes a distinction between Cyprus as an island and the Republic of Cyprus and does not use Cyprus as a shorthand to refer to the Republic.
- News outlets don't usually have consistent approaches regarding this distinction. Al Jazeera is a good example. When talking about the Cyprus Papers, they will use Cyprus as a shorthand for the Republic. When talking about the Cyprus problem, they will not. Again, the New York Times talks about Cyprus as an island and introduces the Republic of Cyprus as a separate concept in [this article. In this one, that distinction seems less clear-cut.
- The bottom line is that the sources can be used to argue either way, but on Misplaced Pages our article names have to account for all contexts, and when talking about the Cyprus problem, this article's name is incredibly unhelpful. Per WIAN, Britannica's approach is a good reference point and I would support this move, though with some reservation. --GGT (talk) 00:10, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Disambiguate Moving base name into disambiguation page, moviing Cyprus article to the Republic of Cyprus, and moving Geography of Cyprus to Cyprus (island). These pages are not primary topic for each other. 182.3.70.231 (talk) 04:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose The Republic of Cyprus is internationally recognised to have territorial ownership of the entire island, in these cases we just make one article for both the island and the country such as Jamaica, Mauritius, Cuba, Madagascar, Iceland, Sri Lanka and many others. Ale3353 (talk) 15:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Ale3353:
to have territorial ownership of the entire island
that's entirely untrue. What about Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Beshogur (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2021 (UTC)- Beshogur, it’s similar to Guantanamo Bay and Cuba has the island and the country at one article like I mentioned above. Ale3353 (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah the British isn't "leasing" those two areas. It's part of the UK legally. Beshogur (talk) 17:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Beshogur, it’s similar to Guantanamo Bay and Cuba has the island and the country at one article like I mentioned above. Ale3353 (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support as the current title(s) cause too much confusion in too many areas to keep as is. There is also the fact that "Cyprus" is not fully synonymous with the Republic of Cyprus, considering the sovereign UK bases and Northern Cyprus. This should be done along with changing Island of Cyprus to Cyprus. DriedGrape (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- Support. There is a need to talk about the 1) political entity and 2) the entirety of the geographical island. The proposed move solves this issue. Vizjim (talk) 08:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Most sources when discussing the Republic of Cyprus refer to it as "Cyprus". This is usually because of international legitimacy (the Republic is the sole recognized entity on the island) and brevity. The situation is totally different from Ireland, where "Ireland" is generally not synonymous with the Republic of Ireland. As for the "Cyprus (island)" issue, that is adequately addressed by Geography of Cyprus. There is no compelling reason to move the article, and creating a disambiguation page would cause all kinds of headaches to no encyclopedic benefit. Khirurg (talk) 23:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. The British bases are sovereign British territories. Vizjim (talk) 06:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- @The Republic is the sole recognized entity on the island: British sovereign bases are not Cypriot territory, also the fact is they do not control the territory in north for 40 years. Beshogur (talk) 11:25, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- So? None of this nitpicking contradicts that sources commonly use "Cyprus" to refer to the Republic Cyprus, WP:COMMONNAME. Khirurg (talk) 00:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Strong oppose Per the undisputed WP:COMMONNAME in the RS. This is also is a perennial move request. Perhaps we can add a FAQ list at the top of the page addressing the British bases, the UN green line, etc.. All this stuff has been discussed to death in multiple move requests in the past, along with the same proposals regarding the articles of the Geography of Cyprus etc. and the proposals and move requests have been defeated multiple times in the past. Nothing new here. Dr. K. 09:49, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose The short name of the Republic of Cyprus is just Cyprus. The Misplaced Pages's naming guidelines encourage the use of short names that are also the WP:COMMONNAMEs for these countries over lengthy official ones, (in Cyprus's case, the majority of sources, including newspapers, academic scholarship, bibliography, documents and so on, prefer using the short name "Cyprus" more than the "Republic of Cyprus") and the short name is also WP:CONSISTENT with how it was done in Misplaced Pages for the other countries in the area: Greece is preferred instead of the Hellenic Republic, Turkey instead of the Republic of Turkey, Egypt instead of the Arab Republic of Egypt, and Northern Cyprus instead of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Israel instead of the State of Israel, Syria instead of the Syrian Arab Republic and so on.
- Considering the naming guidelines, and considering that the short name "Cyprus" full-fills both the WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT criteria, and considering that (unlike what the RM's initiator has argued) the geographical article related to the island of Cyprus is already unambiguous (see: Geography of Cyprus) and considering how the current article titles Cyprus and Geography of Cyprus are also WP:CONSISTENT with how things were done for the other countries in the region and their geographical articles (Greece and Geography of Greece, Malta and Geography of Malta, Turkey and Geography of Turkey, Egypt and Geography of Egypt, Israel and Geography of Israel and so on), I see absolutely no reason to support this move request. The RM's proposed title doesn't solve really any issues of clarity, is inconsistent with how things were done around there, and is not even the WP:COMMONNAME for the country.
- PS: reading now the RM again, I can't help but express my skepticism over a part of the OP's statement, where they stated that they initiated the RM to make it "
Similar to Ireland
". I am not sure what exactly do they mean by that, considering that Ireland's case is totally different to Cyprus's case, both semiologically, legally and politically. While the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland both are internationally recognized entities, and have de-jure control over the island, the Republic of Cyprus on the other hand, is the sole recognized entity on the island with de-jure control over it (foreign military bases do not matter for Misplaced Pages, I am afraid), and for the international community, Cyprus not only it represents the whole island of Cyprus (unlike the Republic of Ireland) but also treats the name Cyprus in intertwinedly with the Republic of Cyprus. The RM ignoring the facts about the island of Cyprus, as well as Misplaced Pages's common practices and naming guidelines, including WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT, by trying to do it "similarly to Ireland", doesn't constitute an actual improvement for Misplaced Pages IMO. - Edit: even the relevant category concerning the island country, is also called Category:Cyprus and it encompass all the related topics which too are using the short name Cyprus. This, I believe, is a good reason for the article to keep its current title for wp:consistent reasons. To not mention that across Misplaced Pages, the common name "Cyprus" is already being used more often than the full official name "Republic of Cyprus" ever was. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 05:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; already addressed above by other editors. Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Support due to geographic reasons.93.182.73.53 (talk) 08:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- Support same reason per above. Because the sovereign UK bases and Northern Cyprus are not in the ‘government’ controlled area and are separate entities. We should also fix the map so it can show Akrotiri and Dhekelia.93.182.109.189 (talk) 13:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
- IP with no edits prior to !voting here, also edits tail fat, same as IP above. Khirurg (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. I suppose we have to live with this regular repetition of the same debate. The suggestion has been shot down several times before. Nothing new this time. 'Cyprus' is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME for the Republic. The Republic is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term 'Cyprus'. End of story! --T*U (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Comment. As one user points out above, this has not been formally discussed by the community on this page since 2014. The "Sigh, I've heard it before/it's perennial" discussion point is probably not useful here.Vizjim (talk) 08:42, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Vizjim: If that comment was meant for me, it misses its target. Firstly, no
Sigh
from me, just an acceptation that this has been and will be repeated. Secondly, my point wasNothing new
: Nothing significant has happened since the latest discussion, and the OP has not brought any new arguments. --T*U (talk) 12:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)- Really wasn't pointed at any individual. Several contributors to this discussion have made the same point. While each person is making the observation in good faith, in aggregate it's disrespectful to new editors and people who have not previously engaged in this discussion. There are currently 13 votes supporting the move (including the nom and a disambiguate) and 9 opposing, with strong arguments being made on both sides. Consensus has not been reached, but it's distasteful to watch people trying to make the argument disappear with the comment that they have seen it all before.Vizjim (talk) 12:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but then it would have been equally problematic if earlier discussions were not mentioned. So I suggest we leave it at that and refrain from using words like
disrespectful
anddistasteful
about arguments that you yourself say are made in good faith. --T*U (talk) 13:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)- T*U is right, IMO. Past consensuses shouldn't be ignored if data/evidence concerning the usage of the term in sources, has not changed significantly since these past discussions. Misplaced Pages reflects on the majority of sources, and for the consensus to update, there has to be a valid reason to do so, such as a reasonable change in the sources. As far as we know, Cyprus remains the common name used in the English world for the island country. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 14:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Dismissing the factual comments by multiple editors (that this is a perennial move request) as a "sigh" is WP:CLUEless. To add insult to injury, nobody "sighed" or used words to that effect. Finally, that this move request attracted new editors who make exactly the same points as were made in 2014 does not change the fact that this is a perennial move request with no additional information being discussed since earlier moves which were rejected. If anyone is looking for respect, they should achieve it by reading the previous perennial move requests and then deciding not to raise again the same rejected points. Dr. K. 21:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC).
- T*U is right, IMO. Past consensuses shouldn't be ignored if data/evidence concerning the usage of the term in sources, has not changed significantly since these past discussions. Misplaced Pages reflects on the majority of sources, and for the consensus to update, there has to be a valid reason to do so, such as a reasonable change in the sources. As far as we know, Cyprus remains the common name used in the English world for the island country. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 14:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but then it would have been equally problematic if earlier discussions were not mentioned. So I suggest we leave it at that and refrain from using words like
- Really wasn't pointed at any individual. Several contributors to this discussion have made the same point. While each person is making the observation in good faith, in aggregate it's disrespectful to new editors and people who have not previously engaged in this discussion. There are currently 13 votes supporting the move (including the nom and a disambiguate) and 9 opposing, with strong arguments being made on both sides. Consensus has not been reached, but it's distasteful to watch people trying to make the argument disappear with the comment that they have seen it all before.Vizjim (talk) 12:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Vizjim: If that comment was meant for me, it misses its target. Firstly, no
- Support common name can be too confusing. We should move it because it’s talking about the country and not the geographic part of the island. We should move Geography of Cyprus to just Cyprus or disambiguate it. 95.0.32.95 (talk) 07:47, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- IP with identical editing history as 93.182.73.53. Khirurg (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I see that there are more arguing whether the Republic of Cyprus as primary topic for base name Cyprus or not. One side arguing that the Republic of Cyprus as primary topic, while others arguing that Geography of Cyprus (island) is primary topic. In this case, it dan be declared as WP:NOPRIMARY due to different opinions regarding it and at least, the discussion can be end with no consensus. 116.206.35.16 (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- I am afraid it is not the editors who can decide solely based on their personal views on what constitutes primary for the common name Cyprus. Per WP:VERIFIABILITY, Misplaced Pages has to reflect on sources, not on editorial opinions, and since the vast majority of WP:RS are referring to Cyprus in contexts more than just plainly geographical ones, this should be reflected accordingly. For this reason alone, the RM simply shouldn't be endorsed. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 14:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Comment Looks like the RM is being spammed by a range of similar IPs, all from the same geolocation (Istanbul metro), all within a very short time interval, all making similar arguments, all editing the same topics (tail fat, Kyrgyzstan, shish kebab, etc...): 93.182.109.189, 93.182.73.53, 95.0.32.95. One of these IPs has no edits prior to this discussion. Likely that these are the same individual editing from different IP addresses. Khirurg (talk) 15:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: just a kind reminder for everyone, including the RM Closer: Cyprus remains a politically sensitive topic in Misplaced Pages and due to the long history of recorded IP disruption and off-wiki IP WP:CANVASSING. RM outcomes about such sensitive articles should weight more on: 1) the sources, 2) the Misplaced Pages's naming guidelines, 3) the strong points the auto-confirmed users made, and 4) the long-standing consensus from the previous discussions/RMs on the matter. To prevent the ambush of the consensus-building progress by suspicious WP:SPA and IPs who come just to vote, without actually contributing to the discussion, their !votes should not be given weight towards (or against) the consensus-building. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 16:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
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