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Hinduism | Dolphins | Heresies | Trinity | Colliding Galaxies | Rapid Bending Granite | Crazy Eddie debate

crazyeddie 2004-02-24

The Meaning of Faith

I'm willingly to give the category you describe as “Hebrew faith” the label of “the search for truth” (of which philosophy and science are subsets) on one condition – that you agree that faith, as commonly defined, is an essential element of that search.

I might also point out that “to obey God” is the result of a successful search for truth, not an element of that search. I believe that moral behavior is the result of enlightened self-interest, and that the search for truth will result in enlightenment. An enlightened individual always does what is right, because that is the best way of meeting their goals.

However this is a minor point, and I'm not willing to haggle over it. I am quite willing to insist on the inclusion of faith though.

As for the difference between faith and trust: After some consideration, I think that the difference between trust and faith is that trust makes provisions for being wrong, faith doesn't.

You trust your business partners to make good on their bargain, but you still make plans in case they don't. On the other hand, faith, while it acknowledges that it might be wrong, makes no contingency plans. This is because faith should only be used as the foundation for a belief when the costs of that belief being wrong are so high that no amount of preparation would be sufficient.

sounds good -- now that i know what you mean by faith, i think we'll be able to communicate better:). just to clarify my definition, it seems to me that part of faith IS making provision for failure -- because faith is seeking Truth Trust, True Preparation, True Love, True Science, True Philosophy ... whatever's True:). Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Meaning of God

Ah, so God is the eternal “I Am”. So you're changing the rules: see No true Scotsman. Nevertheless, even this revised definition means that honesty compels me to assert my Godhood, under the doctrine of the Eternal Now.

It is true that this form I inhabit is temporally finite. The complex of memories that give me my sense of self-identity – my soul, if you will – describe a curve through 4-dimensional spacetime, with an endpoint in the past, and presumably another endpoint in the future.

But I am not my memories. Under Descartes's Truth, my memories may be falsified, but my existence can not. I am nothing more than the simple fact of self-awareness. In the matrix of spacetime, I am a dimensionless point. The passage of time may be nothing but an illusion, an artifact of my apparent memories. But because I exist, I will always have had existed. There is no power in the universe, not even God, that can change that.

It seems to me that my own definition of God is problematic. “Arbitrarily great” is a weasel worded term. I think it may be better to define the entity we are discussing as the Creator of the universe. This doesn't run afoul of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, because my former definition can be derived from my new one.

We know that God is very powerful since no human, to date, has created a universe. We also know that God is very wise because He designed the universe, a task that no human or group of humans has been able to match.

I believe that this demonstrated level of power and wisdom proves that God has the power to create a more benign universe. Even if the current design is the best one He could accomplish, he could still have used a genetic programming technique. He could have taken His best design, made random variations, create universes based on the modified designs, select the best of the lot, rinse, lather, repeat.

Our continued existence is strong argument in favor of the view that while this universe – including us – may have flaws, these flaws are within tolerances set by God.

It seems to me that the conventional view of Christianity is that God does see flaws in humanity, but these flaws are minor enough that He is attempting repairs instead of scrapping this version and starting over.

I don't particularly like this view, since it suggests that God didn't know exactly what He was doing when He made the universe. I prefer to think that He created the universe, evil and all, as part of some greater good.

<<So you're changing the rules: see No true Scotsman.>>

i don't know that that's a fallacy, really -- seems to me it's just articulating your definitions and ideals. What do I think God is? Well, I gotta explain it to you. i don't think it's fair to bind the discussion to "commonly held definitions" ... there are a million definitions of God ... i gotta let you know exactly what I mean:). Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<Under Descartes's Truth, my memories may be falsified, but my existence can not. I am nothing more than the simple fact of self-awareness. In the matrix of spacetime, I am a dimensionless point. The passage of time may be nothing but an illusion, an artifact of my apparent memories. But because I exist, I will always have had existed.>>

hmm ... help me out, because this appears to be non-sequitur to me. your line of argument appears to be:

1) I know for a fact that I exist, because i think.

2) Therefore, I have always existed, and will always exist.

I don't think 2 follows from one. descartes' deduction is, "I think, therefore I am." But if you cease to think, you will cease to be. Now you may indeed be eternal, but that would require some form of life-after-death -- in a materialistic universe, when your brain stops functioning, you're done. no? Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<I don't particularly like this view, since it suggests that God didn't know exactly what He was doing when He made the universe. I prefer to think that He created the universe, evil and all, as part of some greater good.>>

hmm ... i'm not quite sure where you're going here. You've said that you're an atheist, but also that you prefer to think He created the universe as part of some greater good. If you don't believe in God, of what relevence is your understanding of God?

as to the view itself, it's certainly a more poetic view, certainly the most widely held, and I can certainly understand and respect it. I simply find it absolutely irreconcilable with my experience and sense of right and wrong. Within my value set, I believe it to be both irrational and immoral. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Meaning of Morallity

<<that's the buddhist definition, which is ultimately subjective -- suffering doesn't exist if you close your mind to desire. i reject that definition of evil. i believe that desiring the Good brings Joy, and desiring the Evil brings Suffering, so that desire is not our enemy; the desire of EVIL is our enemy. i believe that those who desire evil are genuinely, objectively evil, and i believe that their evil acts are genuinely, objectivedly evil as well. not because another person thinks they are -- but because they ARE.>>

I think you're missing the point. Suffering is the result of thwarted desire. It may be that the source of that thwarting is the evil of another. But that doesn't matter. The point is that without desire there would be no suffering. Assuming that suffering is the same as evil, then getting rid of desires would get rid of evil. But it would also get rid of good, which is where I part ways with Buddhism. (But maybe they mean something else than what it appears – Buddhism can be tricky that way.)

<<Assuming that suffering is the same as evil, then getting rid of desires would get rid of evil.>>

right. i don't think your argument follows.

1) Desire causes suffering

2) eliminatind desire will eliminate suffering.

Point 1: I think point 1 fails, because i think that desiring GOOD causes JOY. you know the feeling you had as a kid right before you were gonna go to Chucky Cheese? Or the salivating feeling right before you eat your favorite food? I think that that desire is JOY -- and i think that the desire of good BRINGS that joy. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Point 2: I think point 2 fails, because i don't think eliminating desire will eliminate suffering -- on the contrary, i think that the NUMBNESS it would bring would be suffering. To live a life without joy or the desire for joy? No. I think that would bring more suffering than it would cure. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The point I'm trying to make isn't that we can get rid of evil by getting rid of desires. The point is that without desires there is no good or evil. Good and evil are subjective.

again, i simply disagree with your assertion. I think that Good and Evil are Absolute. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We call an event good when it helps us satisfy our desires. We call an event bad when it thwarts our desires, and causes suffering. If an event neither helps or hinders the satifaction of our desires, then it is neither good nor evil.

Would you call Dahmer's killing spree good? it helped to satisfy his desires, and did not harm MY desires at all -- i never met him or anybody he met. but i think it was EVIL. i think it was objectively, not subjectively, absolutely evil. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The universe is a complex of events. Without humans and their desires, the universe would be neither good nor evil. The universe doesn't satisfy all of our desires, so it does contain some evil. Wether, on balance, the universe is more good and evil is a different question, one where we appear to disagree on the answer.

But that's not the whole story. The universe is an inanimate object. But God is not. It is possible for a person, like God, to do evil while intending good. God, by creating a universe that is partially evil, has done evil. But does that mean that God intended evil? It could be that He wasn't wise enough or powerful enough to do the good He intended. But He might also have been like a doctor – intentionally causing some limited suffering in the service of a greater good. It is possible that we humans are too limited to understand God's motives in this matter.

I'm left again wondering why you have a theology, when you're an atheist. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<you've apparently rejected any objective basis for good and evil, because they are merely human concepts ... so how is one to say we are actually becoming more moral? how can morality have any MEANING outside of the context of the act itself?>>

I have shown that, objectively, morality has no meaning. I could say similar things about truth, justice, peace, democracy, the American Way, and even apple pie. But I do believe in these things. Why do I believe in these things, when they have no objective truth?

Because I'm not objective. My reason is not pure.

Why is my reason not pure?

Because I have desires.

Why do I have desires?

Because Nature, either by the personal design of God, or by the impersonal actions of evolution, gave them to me. Nature gave us desires in order to increase our chances of survival. (Logically, what reason do we have to strive for survival?)

Mere instinct, inborn desires, can not evolve fast enough to make allowances for every contingency. That is why Nature gave humans minds – our brains exist in order to figure out how to best sastify our desires in an optimal way.

One of these desires is the desire to do good.

It has been shown many times that moral behavior, even when it requires self-sacrifice, is actually pro-survival. This is because while humans are mortal, the genes and ideas that determine our make up are potentially immortal. The survival of our genes and ideas depends on the survival of our families and our societies.

Many philosophers have suggested that this be used as the definition of morality – that in any given situation, the most moral choice to take is the one that optimally maximizes the odds of survival – of self, of family, of society, of life itself.

However, there is a trap in this definition. Consider the old fallacy of Social Darwinism. Because evolutionary fitness increases the chances of an organism prospering, Social Darwinists argued that prosperity was a sign of evolutionary fitness.

What they failed to consider is that human estimates of fitness are imperfect. If this wasn't true, we wouldn't have to problem of “overbreeding” in domesticated strains. The only true judge of evolutionary fitness is Nature itself.

Social Darwinists neglected to take in account that prosperity may be the resulted of inherited wealth, not inherited fitness.

A moral society is more likely to prosper than an immoral society. But just because a society is powerful does not mean that it is moral. Might does not make right.

Moral relativism does not say that there is no objective morality. What it says, in effect, is that only God is a true judge of morality, and that mortal societies should think twice before attempting to sit on His throne of judgment.

In the absence of the perfect rulings of God, morality becomes a matter of consensus.

Although the West is powerful, that doesn't mean that we should impose our cultural values on the rest of the world. In turn, this doesn't mean that we should ignore perceived evil either. But we should always be careful to know the difference between evil and mere differences in culture.

Evidence clearly shows that human behavior is getting closer to the current consensual measures of morality. But does that mean humans are getting more moral objectively? I think humans are getting more moral, but in the absence of an objective measure of morality...

<<But we should always be careful to know the difference between evil and mere differences in culture. >>

What's the difference, if morality is determined by consensus? Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<Evidence clearly shows that human behavior is getting closer to the current consensual measures of morality.>>

I'm afraid this is self-referential. Human behavior is by definition getting closer to current consensual measures of morality -- because humans have a remarkable ability to rationalize their actions. Nazi Germany was also "getting closer to the current consensual measures of morality" at the time. They just happened to be absolutely, objectively evil and wrong. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Decaying Universe

If I understand you, you say that, without God, the universe is doomed to decay. But one belief doesn't require the other. It is possible to have a naturally improving universe with God, just as it is possible to have a decaying universe without God.

But the last option is an emotional impossibility. Atheism demands a faith in a basically good universe. Atheism, it can be said, transfers the worship of a personal God to a worship of an impersonal Nature. Doing so requires a belief in the goodness – but not omni benevolence – of nature.

Your belief in a decaying universe is only acceptable because of God. Without God, all hope, whether in the form of personal salvation by ascension to Heaven, or global salvation, by God reforming the Earth into a New Eden (or simply preventing further decay), is lost.

<<Atheism demands a faith in a basically good universe.>>

does it provide any rational basis for the basically good universe? A universe that is ultimately devoid of any objective meaning? Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<Your belief in a decaying universe is only acceptable because of God.>>

well, it may be TRUE with or without God ... but without God, it's a very very dark reality. It's only PALATABLE with God:). Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

God-as-an-Artist

<<mcfarland is only in our imagination. those children i saw skewered through their vaginas on bamboo posts are very, very real. i don't think fiction to reality is a fair comparison.>>

I repeat: What is God, but Chuck Palahniuk with a more immersive art form at his disposal?

I don't think it was either. I think it was evil men doing things that God hates. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The difference between our human arts and the universe (if you consider the universe as a work of art) is that human art is never fully immersive. Some part of our senses are not involved in the work. Even if that were not so, we still retain our own memories. God does not have those limitations.

We can be sure of nothing but our own existence. What proof do you have of the absolute reality of this girl?

I'm not offering God-as-an-Artist as a serious picture of reality. I'm offering art as one possible greater good that God may have been working towards if he intentionally created evil. We know that He, or rather, His Creation is causing us to suffer. But could he have a good reason for doing so?

I'm left with the same question. If you don't believe in God, why do you have opinions on theology? Since i'm the only theist here, perhaps we should limit our theological discussions to MY theology, unless you come to have one of your own? Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

<<... allows for the possibility of Vandals which undo his good work and the work of those who work with him, in the name of their own ideologies, or just the pleasure of sheer destruction.>>

Ah, but Misplaced Pages vandals are co-equals with the benign contributors and are co-creators of the Misplaced Pages.

We don't know much about the actual nature of God. So far, I've been referring to Him as “He”, because that is the convention. But there is nothing preventing God from being a committee.

Either the Devil (the personification of evil) is a co-equal of God, or he is a creation of God. If the Devil is a co-equal of God, and had a hand in the Creation, then he is part of God. We have done nothing more than prove that God is partially evil – something we already knew.

If the Devil is a creation of God, then God is responsible for him. God should have the ability to destroy him. He may be prevented from doing so by some other consideration. Or he may have intentionally created him as part of some greater plan.

These all depend on your theological assumptions again. I believe that God made the devil Good (Lucifer, the highest of the Angels), but Lucifer rebelled, fell, and took 1/3 of the angels with him. I believe that God and Satan are currently locked in a battle, and God will ultimately win, because God is the ultimate I am. Ungtss 01:50, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Creationism article

Hi ungtss. I just wanted to say to you personally that although we very clearly disagree in our approach to this subject, I have been impressed with your overall attitude. You have remained civil and have explained your position on the talk page. My first real experience on this site had me taking part in a very bitter edit war which was very different. I will continue to stick to my side with regards to creationism, and will no doubt be adding and editing more in the future (which will no doubt contain edits and changes that you will not agree with), but despite our clear disagreements, I wanted to just compliment you for your overall attitude and for your civility :) Aaarrrggh 20:15, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, sir:). i'd like to compliment you as well, and i look forward to working together toward npov:). Ungtss 13:32, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)