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Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32

Additional archived pages:

• Talk:Philosophy/Rationality (useful reference on previous discussion, Feb 2006) Dbuckner 12:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• Talk:Philosophy/Dec06definitions Some pretty awful definitions of philosophy that someone wanted to keep to discuss. Dbuckner 16:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
• Jan2007 and Jan2007-2 archives.

Archived

I've archived the remainder of this talkpage, to the two Jan2007 archives listed above, I wasn't sure whether to integrate those and the other two "additional archives" into the regular archives, and will leave that up to you. If anything in there was actually useful for the article, feel free to unarchive those threads. Ludvikus has been blocked for a week for unrelated abuse and personal attacks, and uninvolved admins are fully aware of the situations he has created, so everyone can ignore that whole issue, and get back to writing here and at the workshop. I'm retreating back to book design, where I initially met Ludvikus, so good luck with that whole describing the clarity of weltanschauung thing ;-p

Hope I helped, at least a little. And I still think this article needs more einstein, more meaning of life ;) --Quiddity 02:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Workshop

I am tentatively setting up a workshop page for those who wish to collaborate on this subject. Please read the intro, as this is not the same as a usual free-form talk page. Its purpose is to gain views on some questions that come to mind. Any editor here is invited to contribute - but please read the ground rules first! FT2 17:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Update on article status - Jan 30 2007

Without going into excessive details, the article's at the following position:

Basis of mediation: - Mediation is neutral. It tries to include all those involved and reconcile them. But ultimately, that doesn't mean ignoring problems if they persist. It means seeking the least contentious route to getting the article and its editorship back on form. This includes both addressing the editorial approach of the article, and also looking at where conduct needs to change.

Workshop - The workshop is going well; there's a clear sign that the workshop is achieving some insight and consensus and might help create a solid basis for the article.

Ludvikus -

• It is clear (to me) that Ludvikus has at times acted in a way which is a pretty cold case for arbcom. This is not because any other editor says so, but my own assessment (as a neutral mediator familiar with arbcom) of his own editing. To balance that, there has been some incivility by others, and also some good points by Ludvikus. But the problems in his editing do gravely outnumber the good content (in my assessment), and as several pages note, nobody is indispensible if their conduct causes unremediable serious problems.

• Ludvikus has agreed in email to some conditions which might allow the matter to avoid Arbcom if kept to. They don't need recapping here right now. He knows what he has agreed (in private) to keep to. If Ludvikus can act well, then we see how the article progresses without that particular aspect of difficulty.

• If Ludvikus continues to act well, then I will hold off presenting his conduct to Arbcom, and will ask others to do likewise, and hope that a degree of sensible constructive dialog will emerge. Since there is already a very solid basis for such a case, this is a final attempt to include Ludvikus' input in the article dialog in a constructive manner. I hope it will be kept to. I'm also at peace with the outcome if it can't be.

Note that shoving the problem from one article to another isn't a "solution". So "act well" means, on all articles, not just this one. There are indications of concern elsewhere too; I'm not interested in resolving philosophy only to have to fix a dozen other articles with similar problems in future.

That's where it's at. Tomorrow I'll update the workshop, and see if we are getting close. Hopefully the progress there is encouraging and dispute free -- please do contribute to that page if you can. It will form the basis for an article approach, once hammered out, so all views and inputs are welcome. But keep it short and within the approach described, so it stays useful! FT2 02:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Update Jan 30 2007: Article unblocked. See block log narrative:

23:07, January 30, 2007 FT2 unprotected Philosophy Trial unprotect: - per Ludvikus email agreement not to edit page contentiously or until long term stability reached. Warned carefully and seriously that breach beyond minor spelling etc will result in any/all of immediate block, or ArbCom referral, possib

As stated above, so it is meant. Please take serious note of this narrative, since if it is invoked no further warning will be necessarily given. Also note that other matters agreed by email (good standard of editing, discuss rather than revert, no incivility/attacks) also stand.

To underline the seriousness of the situation, you need to know what the result will be for further breaches of these kinds. That's so that it is stated openly and fairly, "up front", and so others know you have been so advised in an open fair honest manner. This is the next stepfor breach, and you are hereby warned of it:

In the event of significant breach my (or uninvolved administrators') next action will probably be either 1/ referral to Arbcom and short term block until Arbcom have ruled on a preliminary injunction to minimize disruption, or more likely, 2/ community ban (or request on WP:ANI for a view on community ban) of indefinite duration, enforced by an indefinite block. FT2 23:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek philospher Pythagoras missing.

Truth is a lie, when it is missing a truth. (CS)

Only fitting...

"Ancient Greek philosophy may be divided into the pre-Socratic period, the Socratic period, and the post-Aristotelian period. The pre-Socratic period was characterized by metaphysical speculation, often preserved in the form of grand, sweeping statements, such as "All is fire", or "All changes". Important pre-Socratic philosophers include Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes, Democritus, Parmenides, and Heraclitus. "

You forgot to add the name of Pythagoras

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Combining Forms

I'd like to merge the first two paragraphs and drop one of the two versions of the Greek origins, i.e. either remove the reference to philosophía or to the combining forms:

...and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic). The word itself is derived from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophía, meaning love of wisdom).

I know there's some argument over the best way to describe the etymology but a one-sentence paragraph on it giving both the Greek word and its origin seems like overkill at this early stage in the article. Bringing in a linked "combining forms" here seems distracting to the point. A link to a "History of the Etymology of Philosophy" entry would be fine! JJL 14:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection. The 'combining form' was an obsession of our dearly departed friend Ludvikus. I gave up reverting this for obvious reasons. Dbuckner 18:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

JJL, I adjusted the account of the etymology some weeks ago; then Ludvicus added "combining forms". I thought that the addition was harmless enough; so, given the Heraclitean volitility of things hereabouts, I left it alone. But I have now made a slight adjustment, in response to your concern. I urge you (and others) to consider leaving the etymology sentence as it now stands. Very many accounts of the etymology get it wrong, including many in earlier versions of this article. A single short sentence setting things right is not too much in an article of this length, detail, and importance. We could go further, but should not. An editor pointed out earlier that the word for philosopher precedes the word for philosophy, in Greek; that's true, but it complicates the matter needlessly, for a general article like this. – Noetica 00:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It's an improvement, but I'd still prefer to see it shorter this early in the article. Perhaps it's a matter of looking at things from better informed eyes, but I wonder if showing philo- and sophia- isn't enough for the average reader to figure out where philosophy comes from, even if there are some slight technicalities that are omitted. JJL 03:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Quotations page

I have updated the quotations page with links to what Philosophy departments advertise their subject as being. Everyone welcome to work on this page, so long as verifiable source material. Dbuckner 18:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Usually the most junior facult member gets stuck with the job of writing the description of the subject in the college catelog. Not a good reference. Rick Norwood 13:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Summarize key points based upon descriptions by notable philosophers and reference texts, and contrast with summarized descriptions of college course/departmental promo texts, perhaps? Multiple viewpoints, those seem the main ones. FT2 14:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that Rick Norwood's point is not only false, but not allowed on Misplaced Pages, because it is original research. Perhaps I'm wrong about the latter, but the claim is certainly false. I have never known a job like this to go to the most junior person. Universities take attracting students extremely seriously, as do individual faculties; they do not toss the job to someone simply on the grounds of lack of seniority. On at least one occasion I have known the Head of Department write the introduction (John Cottingham at Reading). --Peter J King 16:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been my experience too. To insure that students will be attracted to the dept., often a small committee or senior expert in the relevant subfield writes the catalog material and the head carefully edits it. This is a big responsibility for the head--the catalog is the arbiter of many disputes. JJL 16:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

But does it describe philosophy (neutrally and accurately), or does it market philosophy (massage or tilt the description a bit to gain interest)? I'd be amazed if a marketing summary - even one written by a philosopher and department head - was as certain to be neutral and accurate and likely to catch the important "twists" in definition, as an academic or formal summary. It'll be professional but verrrry slightly off, I'd suspect? My $0.02.... FT2 19:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There's bound to be a bias of some sort. But the purpose of that set of quotations was to address the old question that has bogged down progress on this page for many years, namely whether philosophy uses the rational and critical approach. All professional philosophers would say it does, and these quotations suggest that does. Rick Norwood (who is not a professional philosopher) has argued that it does not. Hence his remark above. He (and also Lucas) has objected to the use of encyclopedias as in Definition of philosophy on the grounds that use of encyclopedias as sources is inadmissible in the Wiki. So we are stuck. Dbuckner 08:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well...when we're speaking of divisions of philosophy, for example, I think that how it's taught in universities reflects how working professional philosophers divide up and classify their own areas of expertise. If a curriculum requires that students take one course from each of n major areas of philosophy, that makes a statement. JJL 19:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the courses taught by a philosophy department are driven by the marketplace (to make philosophy look more useful outside its own). Examples: Biomedical ethics, business ethics. Zeusnoos 20:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a wonderful resource that has been added. There is the little question of a 'caveat emptor' to be included in it though, about inflated promotional claims for philosophy, but most importantly that it might be giving (you guessed) an exclusively analytic or anglo-fied or, if not, a traditional version of what philosophy is. Somehow I think many of the graduating students might like to reword those claims that attracted them to philosophy, when they are on their way out the door. -- Lucas (Talk) 21:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

KD, who is not an analytic but a continental (his tutor was Edo Pivcevic, who was a Czech philosopher who taught in England) has argued many times that the continental approach is also rational and critical. You (and Norwood, and indeed Ludvikus)consistently seem to confuse 'rationalism' with the use, in philosophy, of a rational and critical approach. You do understand there is a difference, do you? Dbuckner 08:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Edo is Croatian, but otherwise I agree of course. I have offered before a handful of example of philosophers who have sought to reject rationality as such, but they are few and far between and the position is arguably not notable. KD Tries Again 16:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)KD

Resubmitting suggestion for standards process

I'm resubmitting my suggestion for the inclusion of the Encylopedic Standards forum (ESF) as a way of mantaining quality editing, maintaining a pool of qualified expertise, resolving diputes, and maintaining a positive flow in the development of this article, and the philosophy portal overall:

The mission of ESF is to build a vibrant community with a pool of expertise that will match any organization, corporate or university. We envision developing or refining:

1. A set of goals for articles.

2. A system to indicate articles or article versions that have attained those goals.

3. A quality-based method of resolving editorial disputes.

Richiar 21:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this, but one thing: the page is obsessive about citation, without mentioning style. In my experience there is a very strong correlation between enthusiastic but misinformed editing, and bad writing. The two just seem to go together. Given that, why not try to form some group or other who will look at persistent 'stylistic' offenders and pass judgment. This approach would have a number of advantages, namely

1. There is a large vested interest in the Wiki copywriting community, who like to do this sort of stuff.

2. It gets over the perception that only philosophers can edit philosophy articles. If you look at my criticism of the Analytic philosophy page (see talk) you notice most of the criticisms are stylistic.

3. It also gets over the 'credentialist' objection. Judging articles by how well they are written is much more inclusive than the credentials of the person who wrote them. Dbuckner 08:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • I am taking your comments to heart. I have opened a workspace on my userpage to work on these issues. I don't forsee it being easy, but-I do this sort of thing for a living. It will take form over time. I will make postings on the forum, and notices here if I have anything that may be useful. I will also make note on your talk page if I think I have anything of substance. Philosophy is at the very heart of what I do. Richiar 05:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC) (And welcome back). :)

From the department of the bleeding obvious:

Note to self: we need a section on skepticism under epistemology/metaphysics. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 15:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Done (well, at least started). { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 17:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Two long rants

I left a rant on the Analytic philosophy talk page. A little critical, but there is a lot that could easily be done to make it better. Also see the Continental philosophy talk page. I'm still unclear about the debate between Lucas and the person with a number. What is it about? Dbuckner 08:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Skepticism

Well done for someone (Ben) actually writing something (scepticism section) for once. Only a nitpick: this section is quite long and is only a part of what scepticism is. Its relation to rationalist and empiricist philosophy should also be included, and there is no mention of Hume. Given we are trying to cut down this article and make it more of a summary, wouldn't it make more sense to move part of this to the main Skepticism article, which is not very good, and think about a shorter approach? Just a suggestion. Similarly for Analytic and Continental. We should not lose sight of the fact that whatever this article says about any of these, in summary, should broadly agree with what the introduction to the sub-article says.

Another point, the section on Rationalist philosophy wrongly begins with Descartes. But of course it began long before that. Dbuckner 08:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

PS And how do we actually spell 'scepticism'. Dbuckner 08:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

PPS Just noticed the page Philosophical skepticism which is not bad, though pretty long-winded. Dbuckner 08:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right of course. I started it "blind", so to speak, just dived right in. Dismayed: I only got to establish a third of Empiricus's modes of skepticism. I also wanted to get into contemporary forms, but by that time I had figured out that I was reaching the limits. I was actually thinking of Hume in writing that, in the sense that he admits the existence of a kind of light skepticism (which is more in tune with everyday use of the term). I'll truncate and merge, etc.

Although the rationalism section is wildly incomplete (i.e., where's Zeno?) it doesn't appear to say that Descartes invented rationalism, because it says that he invented a species of rationalism, implying there are others. But of course it's just dangling there without any other relevant historical injections that would lead the reader down the right path.

I spell "skepticism" with a k for reasons that are rational but idiosyncratic. (When at all possible, I like my letters to match particular sounds, and sneer at phonetic opacity. I would rename the Thames to "Temmes" if I had the power. Lucky for England that I don't.) I noticed, though, that the text I was writing from spelt it with a "c", so I was obliged to copy that spelling for the purposes of the quote. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 16:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, the spelling thing was my joke. Americans spell it with a 'k', we Brits, with a 'c'. Dbuckner 17:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no sense of humour. I do have a sense of humor, though. One day I'll figure out how that works.

I've "fixed" skepticism and rationalism, but I'm positive that Zeno is not the first/best example of a rationalist. Going to eat now, see if I can fix it better when I get back. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 18:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The additions to the article in the last two days

There has been a large amount of editing in last few days, mostly by Ben Nelson (Lucidish) it seems. I have purposely left off editing this as there was a process (managed by FT2) which was being followed by everyone else.

I'll make some comments shortly after reading more carefully, but, on the whole, they read like the usual personal essays that have so dogged this page. Sorry Ben. Dbuckner 19:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no universal agreement about which subjects are to be included among the main branches of philosophy. This is primarily because the science has changed over the millenia, as when astrology was removed from the study of astronomy, which was intimately connected with metaphysics and epistemology. In traditional Western philosophy the disagreements are primarily between the Empiricists, and the Rationalists. There is wide agreement that philosophy includes the disciplines of metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, political science, and aesthetics, in that order.

The very open-minded nature of philosophy makes many people skeptical when it comes to limiting the concept of philosophy to something tangible. Accordingly, metaphilosophical relativists may claim that any statement can be counted as a philosophical statement, as there is no objective way to disqualify it of being so. Some relativists adopt a sociological stance, insisting that any given truth is merely a reflection of the way that a person is socially embedded in a certain culture. To put it in Hegel's terms, "Philosophy is that which grasps its own era in thought."

Elements of the analytic tradition (though not exclusively that tradition) have understood philosophical endeavor to be based around solving puzzles by the use of reasoning. This conception of philosophy is espoused most vividly by the early Wittgenstein, who explained that philosophy is the activity of clarifying fuzzy thoughts. Similar remarks may be found in Schopenhauer, who explains: "To repeat abstractly, universally, and distinctly in concepts the whole inner nature of the world, and thus to deposit it as a reflected image in permanent concepts always ready for the faculty of reason, this and nothing else is philosophy. This sentiment can sometimes be wryly inverted to claim that the central activity of the philosopher is to create their own puzzles.

Many views have tried to deflate what goes on in philosophy at large. The logical positivists denied the soundness of metaphysics and traditional philosophy, and affirmed that statements about metaphysics, religion and ethics are devoid of cognitive meaning and thus nothing but expression of feelings or desires. Another example is that of Nietzsche, who argued that philosophers "are not honest enough in their work, although they make a lot of virtuous noise when the problem of truthfulness is touched even remotely. They all pose as if they had discovered and reached their real opinions through the self-development of a cold, pure, divinely unconcerned dialectic...; while at bottom it is an assumption, a hunch, indeed a kind of “inspiration”—most often a desire of the heart that has been filtered and made abstract—that they defend with reasons they have sought after the fact. Others, like Francis Bacon, have argued that philosophy contributes nothing, but is merely an echo of nature.

1. Hegel, G.W.F. Elements of the Philosophy of Rights. Cambridge University Press. 1991 (1821).
2. Wittgenstein, Ludwig. Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Routledge. 2001. (4.112)
3. Schopenhauer, Arthur. The World as Will and Representation. 1969. (Vol. I, §68)
4. Nietzsche, Friedrich. Beyond Good and Evil. (Part One: On the Prejudices of Philosophers, §5)
5. Bacon, Francis. The Enlargement of Science. (1. 2, ch. 3)

I hope that my edits have been an improvement of the page on the whole, but if I got it wrong, that's fine, we can change it around. I can see how you'd make the OR claim though: there's no solid reason to group together the "social embeddedness" sorts of philosopher with the relativists. The conclusion re: deflation and the positivists may come off a bit harsh (they never denied that they were doing philosophy), but it's also clear that they were out to burn the sophistry that Hume had directed us to. Anyway, the edits were a quick-and-dirty effort to make things hang together done in between shifts, and improvement is welcome.

Still. The first selection here is not mine (IIRC), or at least the phrasing is someone else's doing. i.e., I didn't add anything about Rationalism v. Empiricism in the intro.

The other three are attempts to put the material from the quotations page into prose form, and to merge unnecessary sections together. In the Wittgenstein case I tried to retain the manner of phrasing that the original philosophers used. Compare:

• "the early Wittgenstein... explained that philosophy is the activity of clarifying fuzzy thoughts" (mine);
• "The object of philosophy is the logical clarification of thoughts. Philosophy is not a theory but an activity. A philosophical work consists essentially of elucidations. The result of philosophy is not a number of ‘philosophical propositions’, but to make propositions clear. Philosophy should make clear and delimit sharply the thoughts which otherwise are, as it were, opaque and blurred." (Wittgenstein)

And the Schopenhauer quote is direct, no paraphrasing.

So in both cases I'd have to hear why and how these are misrepresentations. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 20:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I mean the sentence that follows the Schopenhauer: "This sentiment can sometimes be wryly inverted to claim that the central activity of the philosopher is to create their own puzzles." How so? Which philosopher claimed this? Dbuckner 21:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have linked that to the Russell quote (that's what it was meant to be referring to). { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 21:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You say "Elements of the analytic tradition (though not exclusively that tradition) have understood philosophical endeavor to be based around solving puzzles by the use of reasoning." But Wittgenstein does not mention reasoning, but analysis and clarification. And he does not talk about 'solving puzzles'. Indeed, he says later that 'the riddle does not exist'. I.e. in the case of philosophy there is only the appearance of a puzzle or riddle, caused by cloudy and indistinct thoughts. Thus, the philosopher does not solve puzzles by reason, but tackles what appear like puzzles (but aren't) by clarifying the way they are expressed. Dbuckner 21:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

My source for that one (though I failed to cite it) was Wittgenstein's Poker by David Edmonds and John Eidinow. "What is clear is that there were vehement exchanges between Popper and Wittgenstein over the fundamental nature of philosophy -- whether there were indeed philosophical problems (Popper) or merely puzzles (Wittgenstein)." { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 21:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Then don't make claims without explicitly linking to quotes. Also, remember context. The distinction between 'problems' on the one hand and 'puzzles' or 'muddles' as analytics tend call them, is between genuine difficulties, and stuff that's just puzzling, or gets people confused, but isn't problematic really, if you clarify things in the right way. OK? Dbuckner 07:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course. Nobody is exempt from the burden of proof. But when I wrote the above, it was during the hour or two that I had free between shifts. Though that doesn't excuse the lack of citations, it should at least explain why it isn't always pragmatically feasible for me to give them immediately. (Maybe it would help if we had a standing policy of: a) apply to a statement, and b) if it is not cited within a week, remove the statement.){ Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 15:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletions

I have deleted the paragraph in 'Identity of Philosophy' which begins 'Elements of the analytic tradition ...'. It is poorly written and is a misreading of Tractatus 4.111. The Schopenhauer remarks are pure OR. Dbuckner 19:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

And I have made another reversion here, to changes made by a new user User talk:,Pythagorus8. This does not bode well. Dbuckner 19:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Puzzling too are blocks of text pasted above. Why was only this paragraph deleted. Better to fix the misinterpretation of Wittgenstein. However, giving only one view of philosophy as the "solving of problems" is inconsistent with our intro, which ultimately says philosophy is all about "solving problems". The deletion of this should be, however, from the intro and not from here, since here it has some context. -- Lucas (Talk) 21:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 17:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Request to add

Hello I am the user who added the stuff you deleted. I have re-edited it to:

Another way of organizing all of Western philosophy is into two major 'lineages' or traditions. One is associated with Plato and the other with Aristotle (and the Sophists). The Platonic tradition sees man as a rational being with limitless intellectual potential. Truth-to Plato-is of immaterial forms. The tradition of Aristotle views man as an animal of his senses. Truth is therefore only that of physical material objects. The Platonic tradition includes Philo of Alexandria, Nicolas of Cusa, Johannes Kepler, Gottfried Leibniz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Bernhard Riemann, Georg Cantor and many of the founding fathers of the American Revolution. The tradition of Aristotle includes Descartes, Isaac Newton and the Logical Positivists, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, the Empiricists, the Existentialists, Bertrand Russell and his protege Noam Chomsky.

-unquote. I think it is a valid historical record. Please discuss why it should not be included. I have mentioned philosphers who have specifically associated themselves with the philosopher in their writings or by leading scholars.

thanks, Pythagorus8 20:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

In answer to your question, it is not very well written, and it smells like original research. See WP:OR. Dbuckner 20:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello Pythagorus8 -- It is clear that you are editing in good faith, but you are wrong about this paragraph. What you have written is original research -- in fact, very controversial original research -- and violates Misplaced Pages's NOR policy. Actually, it is probably more accurate to say (although this is very controversial too) that Plato and Aristotle were both rationalists, although each had his own way of understanding and expounding reason. Aristotle did not say were are "an animal of the senses"; he said we are rational animals and, furthermore, that reason (not the animalistic side of our natures) constitutes our essence. As for your long lists of supposed members of each tradition, they are hopelessly argumentative. These are very disparate thinkers, removed by millennia from the ancient Greeks and they have as many points of contrast (with one another and with the ancients) as of resemblance. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the subject matter, but you honestly are getting carried away. Respectfully -- WikiPedant 21:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that comment. Yes, that is also correct. Plato represents a certain kind of rationalism, Aristotle of another. And of course, he did not say we are "an animal of the senses". Dbuckner 21:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I accept 'poorly written' and will try to re-write something and present it here first for peer approval. I do feel it's important to mention in this article that Plato and Aristotle are two examples of the most neat divisions you can divide philosophy into. I feel the difference is mirrored in Taoism (Aristotle) vs. Confucianism (Plato). The fact that you can align most famous philosophers with one or the other proves my point. It is definitely not a perfect fit. I don't think you can say that Aristotle is not empirical in his view of man as a 'rational' animal in contrast to Plato's immaterial rationalism. To Aristotle, man was still a slave to material rationality of his sense-perception. Pythagorus8 21:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do everything via the Talk page. The difference between Plato and Aristotle is generally accepted to be between strong realism (Plato) and moderate realism (Aristotle). If you are going to make any analogies with Taoism &c, these have to be very carefully researched and cited. Original research is strictly prohibited in Misplaced Pages. ThanksDbuckner 21:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it "original research" if it's a taken directly from their original works. For examle, when Aristotle says "Man is by nature a political animal." and karl Marx, Heidegger, Hobbes and others say basically the same thing, is it original research to say they shared views when it is my own observation backed up by original sources?

Pythagorus8 21:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is (sadly). But surely all those writers do all spend a great deal of time talking about how man is political in some sense. But for Marx, human nature is malleable. For Hobbes, humanity is less political than other animals, because they get along so terribly, while bees and the like seem to hang out more or less amicably. These are not exactly obvious points, so you can't be faulted for not knowing them. But the fact that they can be made -- and, in fact, are stressed in introductory courses to political philosophy -- shows that what appears obvious to us on first blush, may be in dire need of verification from secondary sources. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 00:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Leviathan, Chapter 17. Paragraph begins: "It is true, that certain living creatures..." { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 01:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Also in reference to the difference between Aristotle and Plato, I think a more significant difference is the idea of pre-natal truth (Phaedo/remembering) of Plato versus the idea of Aristotle that the soul is born a clean slate. When Leibniz argued his "pursuit of happiness (the joy of intellectual discovery/wisdom)" against John Locke's "pursuit of property" Leibniz specifically said that his view was aligned with Plato's and Locke's view was aligned with Aristotle. This naturally leads to the idea i was trying to put forth: that we can remember the world with our minds according to Plato, but need sensory imprinting from the world. In other words, to Aristotle we are just glorified animals. To Plato, we are imoortal souls with infinite potential. The philosophers I associated with Plato shared this view of man whereas the philosophers I associated with Aristotle saw man as an animal (Hobbes, Kant, Bertrand Russell et al.).

Pythagorus8 21:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can pick out a pattern. However, the job is to verify that the pattern isn't just some fleeting impression. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 00:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I could easily verify it on authority (show many 'scholarly' journals that assert this), but I am not a fan of authority as the source of truth. The difference that I have pointed out is backed up by Leibniz. What greater scholar could you ask for? The real question is what is your opinion on the greatest difference between the two? I'm sure you will personally agree with me? Pythagorus8 01:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are not a great fan of authority, please give up editing here. See WP:OR, and read carefully. See in particular the bit about synthesis: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research". That is why secondary sources (scholars of Leibniz, e.g., are generally preferred). Dbuckner 07:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

So give a precise quote from Leibniz on the subject, and we'll see if it says anything that can salvaged for the article. It doesn't matter whether you're a fan of epistemic authority or not. Nobody is exempt from the burden of proof. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 02:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Often these questions used to be covered under rubrics like realism, indirect realism, empicism, etc. We are all familiar with the famous painting School of Athens with one pointnig up the other down.

Primary and Secondary philosophical sources

Leibniz is on wiki a secondary source. I think the sourcing is best discussed by referring to canonical and academic philosophers. We have not concluded here nor does wiki policy conclude, which between canonical or academic sources are to be preferred. -- Lucas (Talk) 17:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No Lucas, you are wrong. See my comments (and those of others) on the continental philosophy talk page. Original works by great philosophers are primary sources. Wiki prefers secondary sources, to avoid editors passing off original research by interpretation and synthesis. You persist in abusing Wiki policy in order to push you personal and highly idiosyncratic views of philosophy all over the shop. Please stop it! Dbuckner 18:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This declaration is made by as if it had something definite about it, however, it is just an opinion. What we must first clarify is how to discuss this. I suggest we talk of canonical and academic philosophers. The reason for this is that wiki OR does not use primary and secondary sources in the usual academic way, but in a legal/journalistic sense. Dbuckner above suggested in his argument that a journalistic primary source is analagous to the an academic source. The only analogy however, is insofar as one writes about the other, there is no analogy with regard to the real issue, reliability.

Wiki considers primary sources as inherently unreliable, eg, a particular fireman's experience of 9/11. Secondary sources (eg, an historian's view) are instead considered more reliable. For philosophy the ultimate reliable source as to a major philosopher's views is the canonical philosopher herself. However, in drawing more global conclusions not made by that philosopher (eg, synthising her historical connections with others of her time etc.) an academic source is required. The problem is that a canonical philosopher is usually also an academic one. I think most would rate an opinion on Spinoza given by Kant much higher than one given by an unknown academic whose opinion probably died with him. In the end I think it requires judgement on a case by case basis, sometimes the canonical, sometimes the academic.

Tertiary sources, dictionaries etc., are also useful, but they lack critical appeal, since they are usually not "peer reviewed," ie, they are not assessed openly by other philosophers. -- Lucas (Talk) 00:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Like the man says, your opinion here is not correct. There are clearly a number of good editors who are frustrated with you illiterate, unsourced and highly idiosyncratic edits. If you persist in this, I am going to escalate the matter. This is a warning. Dbuckner 09:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll just ignore this since you are obviously on one of your little power trips and make no substantive comment -- Lucas (Talk) 10:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, User:Lucaas, your opinion here is just not correct. Because WP:NOR is such a fundamental policy, and because your editing shows that you don't understand it (though I and several other users have now tried to point this out to you), I'd like to ask you, politely, to read the policy again and reflect more carefully on why it exists. This is not meant as an attack, but an observation about a repeated pattern in your edits -- I've seen many cases now where you've introduced a 100% original synthetic interpretation or historical explanation, and then tried to defend it by either (a) derailing the discussion into interpretive minutiae and simple airing of opinions or (b) inventing new terminology and wildly misinterpreting specific passages of policy (often the examples rather than the rules themselves) to justify your insertion of your own views. (The second is what you've done above by inventing a new and idiosyncratic jargon about "canonical" and "academic" sources when you've been presented several times in the last day with a completely simple distinction between primary sources -- philosophical texts -- and secondary sources like textbooks and histories of philosophy.) This is not how Misplaced Pages works. Since Misplaced Pages is primarily a project to create an encyclopedia, it is most important that we avoid any original interpretation and synthesis of the material and stick to presenting familiar, well-established accounts (note that this means more than just relying on published sources, since it's easy to base a novel interpretation or synthesis on existing texts). I don't mean this as hostile in any way, and I won't use the word "troll" because it appears your intentions are good, but I have to say that I (and apparently several other contributors) am becoming increasingly dubious about whether your edits have been constructive or helpful at all. Again, I'd like to ask that you re-read the original research policy carefully, and consider why your contributions have seemed like original research to many Wikipedians. -- Rbellin|Talk 02:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Again this comment is largely superfluous and sadly emotive. Derailed into "Interpretative minutia", did you not know analytic is concerned with the details. You comment shows how unconcerned you are with philosophy and really want to engage in some kind of personal attack. The Wiki OR is quite clear about what primary sources are and I've no idea why you perist in misreading it. You make again this strange comment aboout a history of original synthesis, point out one example in these discussions of this. The terms canonical and academic are redily available and serve better than the confused primary and secondary (since on wiki they are journalistic not academic terms) You now introduce your own words for this, "philosophical texts" and "textbooks and histories of philosophy". Though this is the only comment you really make in the above I do not think it deserves further discussion as it is obviousl the most confused of the three. I will not further raise this matter of you peristant attempt to derail discussion of wiki article with personal and unsubstatiated attacks, but consider yourself warned. There is a place for your irrelevant vitriol, the garbage can! -- Lucas (Talk) 10:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are confused about the idea of 'synthesis', please read WP:OR. Have you looked at this at all? The policy forbids any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or which, in the words of Misplaced Pages's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." Just search on the word 'synthesis'. See e.g. See 'Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position', which says "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."

Jimmy Wales says: "The phrase 'original research' originated primarily as a practical means to deal with physics cranks, of which of course there are a number on the Web. The basic concept is as follows: It can be quite difficult for us to make any valid judgment as to whether a particular thing is true or not. It isn't appropriate for us to try to determine whether someone's novel theory of physics is valid; we aren't really equipped to do that. But what we can do is check whether or not it actually has been published in reputable journals or by reputable publishers. So it's quite convenient to avoid judging the credibility of things by simply sticking to things that have been judged credible by people much better equipped to decide."

WP:OR says that original research "introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source".

Physicist cranks, philosophy cranks ... Dbuckner 16:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Lucaas, Dbuckner, please take care to avoid incivility. I can see what was written earlier, but I'd ask you both to be careful in what you say (and say it calmly and in good faith) as two collaborators on the same project. Calling people "cranks" (even if they are) or labelling their concerns "irrelevant vitriol" fit for "the garbage can" (even if it were) is not really useful here, it just makes it more intransigent and that helps nobody. The question is whether a particular person's contributions are (or are not) sourced, verifiable or OR, and that needs no emotional personal attacks or personal defence to ascertain. We've had enough of that on this page. I'd suspect consensus would prefer the page to focus on the content and representation issues, the article, and not the editors. Thanks. FT2 17:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok well, I provisionally agree not to characterise Dbuckner's work on wikipedia as "irrelevant vitriol". But believe me, I have attempted to stay away from uncivility. In my opinion, I was not the first to begin this name-calling, -- Lucas (Talk) 19:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

To FT2

FT2: Let me just quote something that Mel Etitis quoted the other day:

There are many ways to explain this problem, and I will start with just one. Far too much credence and respect accorded to people who in other Internet contexts would be labelled "trolls." There is a certain mindset associated with unmoderated Usenet groups and mailing lists that infects the collectively-managed Misplaced Pages project: if you react strongly to trolling, that reflects poorly on you, not (necessarily) on the troll. If you attempt to take trolls to task or demand that something be done about constant disruption by trollish behavior, the other listmembers will cry "censorship," attack you, and even come to the defense of the troll. This drama has played out thousands of times over the years on unmoderated Internet groups, and since about the fall of 2001 on the unmoderated Misplaced Pages.

FT2, that is exactly what you are doing. I am reacting badly to trolling, and you sadly are infected by that mindset: that is reflecting poorly on me, not on the TROLL. Remember what happened last month? I warned you very early on that the behaviour of Ludvikus was going to lead to disaster.

After a few attempts, you replied as follows. "I don't have a content stance, at present. I'm here to watch the conduct and editorship.", "I'm not convinced that all editors are furthering that objective as they might" blah blah. Then we had this rather strange 'workshop' in which the views of professional philosophers were mixed in with the views of two professional trolls, as though you could have a vote on it. Then after some pressure from me you recognised the problem for what it was. It took another administrator (Gwernol) to step in and block the offender (but only for a week). What is up with this place? How dare you blame me for 'incivility'.

It is quite obvious the guy is a complete Troll. Just look through the edits. For goodness sake. Dbuckner 17:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the honesty of the questions. I will have a go at explaining. It may take a few paragraphs to do so.

Mediation is a far less "confrontational" option than seeking arbitration or performing intervention (which I've also done at times). It starts from a standpoint that each party is trying to contribute something (even if misguidedly), and to listen a while to try and extract the valuable views (if any) from the emotion, or policy breaches. Its a consequence of Misplaced Pages not being a hierachy or formal disciplinary body, but a volunteer structure -- consensus is encouraged where possible, and a large number of people, when they are asked without anger for their positive concerns and viewpoints, do find themselves able to learn to produce and discuss them. The ideal is that everyone learns.

Obviously this isn't always achieved. Still calmness in debate usually highlights bad actors, and makes it much easier to show good cause for their removal. Misplaced Pages policy is people are not removed lightly. To me, it is not "obvious" that Lucaas is a "troll", mostly since I've been working on one facet of the dispute at a time to try and help it calm down. The evidence I would look at is how he contributes, when the heat is taken out of the talk page and others revert to calm and reasoned points made. Which I can't do nearly as easily if there is a multi-way bad-faith argument going on. It's for that reason that I ask for civility and calm. Their lack helps nobody, and asking that everyone (whether in the right or wrong) act that way is reasonable and expected. Specifically, I have never found a need to call anyone a "troll", or a "crank", to deal with them, and I've had serious trolling to deal with myself. It's just not needed. One just evidences the pattern of bad behavior if it exists, and is honest about the concerns, exactly as you have done at times.

Let me try to clarify a bit on consensus (sorry if this is obvious stuff, it's not intended to be more than a recap). To write an article is not the same as writing an editorial or a book introduction. We assume that there are multiple perspectives, and that experts and lay-people alike may have knowledge or information that is verifiable, credible and worth including. So we listen to all. That is not the same as accepting all. But yes, we do listen to all, both professionals and others. If people are calm and civilised, views will be added from all perspectives, as they were. This is not for "voting" upon (Facts aren't decided by "vote"); it's to get a clear perspective what range of views get expressed, so we can better see what is obvious "consensus", what would need citing or verification to be accepted, and what misunderstandings might exist that will help us write a better article as we clarify them. In that sense all views are valuable, they're all input to help us write a better article. Provided that they are civil and reasoned (and if they aren't that will be self-evident and not a problem). As you saw on the workshop, some sections were near unanimous agreement, some had important caveats and concerns expressed, whilst the asking of other questions (even misguided ones) led to clarity and agreements that otherwise might not have been reached. It's a collaborative rather than singular approach, and it works.

When the article becomes a dispute, the role of mediation is not powerless. Those who cannot collaborate, rapidly become removed. You have seen this process occur. Ultimately admins will become involved, either to intervene or to explore the logjam (mediation). If a person is trolling, then their comments on a calm talk page will be the sole incivility, the sole disruption, the sole speaker who must argue from rhetoric ... it gets pretty obvious rather quickly, and thus trolls don't usually survive long in a mediation if others keep within policy.

Speaking personally, I know disputes are a stressful situation. One of the articles I was involved in was trolled for about a year - and badly. As a result, when I mediate, I tend to not let bad situations endure for long. Like I mentioned earlier, it will be cleaned up fairly soon. Neutrality does not equal naivety or indifference to goals; it's intensely goal focussed. The goal of mediation - so to speak - being to see who (given a level calm and independently mediated playing field and guidance) cannot in a couple of weeks work collaboratively within policy.

But in the meantime can I hope for your patience and a bit of leeway so that it stands a chance, and doesn't degrade into unhelpful squabbling? Just that you don't inadvertantly add incivility or ad hominems out of frustration, if possible. The situation'll resolve pretty soon, and whether Lucaas is a bona fide editor or not (as your concern stands), he will have his chance to show it without such comments. It'd help.

Last, if you have still got serious questions or concerns, or want to know more (and this goes for anyone) please email me. FT2 19:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry this is complete rubbish. If you had bothered to follow the trail carefully, or ask some trusted people in the dispute (you can spot these in a few seconds), you would have seen the problem. As you say, Wiki policy is that people are not removed lightly. So much the worse for that policy. The most recent problem was not to do with this page. I had a concern that some good editors (on the Continental philosophy and Heidegger articles) were being put off by this nonsense. Your own policy and handling of these issues, as far as I can see, is to ignore the facts and focus on 'behaviours' or whatever. Whereas for me, all that counts is the quality of the editing, and sourcing of material by WP:OR. I come back to Wiki from time to time, every time hoping for a change, and I see it will never change. Sorry FT2, it is people like you who are the main problem with this place. It had to be said. 'The rule of all is not good. Let there one ruler be'. Sadly, there is truth in that. Dbuckner 06:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

PS This comment (by a good editor who has now stopped work on an interesting article) says it all. FT2: it is not Lucas' fault (he cannot help his poor command of English, his inability to follow elementary rules, and his confrontational character). It is your fault. I am blaming you. Sorry to have to say this so bluntly. Dbuckner 07:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

"experts and lay-people alike may have knowledge or information that is verifiable, credible and worth including" - personally I am struggling with this a little, and it may simply mean that Misplaced Pages is not for me. Lay-people with little or no real philosophical education rarely have views which are worth including, however strongly and repeatedly they are expressed. KD Tries Again 16:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)KD

There is a gradation between a lay person and an expert. Someone with good general knowledge of the subject but who is not an expert can help rein in the experts who delve too deeply or use jargon that is too technical. If a lay person can't comprehend the result, that result is of little use--after all, experts could read the original sources for this type of info. Someone with a strong knowledge of history could help place parts of this article in context. Experts write secondary sources, but editors can craft a generic tertiary source from that, to be checked for correctness by an expert. This page has suffered mostly from over-zealous editors but it has also suffered, to a lesser extent, from an over-emphasis on expertise before a structure has been laid out for making a useful entry--too many chefs. Who is the audience? In any event, "anyone can edit" seems to be the idea of WP. It isn't meant to be compelling reading.

But I surely share the implicit concern that the unknowledgeable/uncollegial are driving away the posters with the most to contribute. JJL 17:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact of life that wiki is open. There are hundreds of scholarly journals and traditional publishers who would only be too glad to publish expert opinion. So what happens here is really an experiment. Can experts work with non-experts? I think many of the problems come not from editing articles or lack of expertise, but from unsourced claims by certain users to be more expert or scholarly. We have no idea of what "secondary opinion" is about such editor's current scholarly situation, and we cannot just believe self-promotional claims, for all we know, they could be writting from an asylum (are they allowed internet there?).

Maybe too we could extend our sourcing policy to talk pages, claims such as, on wiki the "unknowledgeable are driving away the knowledgeble," are mere hearsay. I also find the comment: "Lay-people with little or no real philosophical education rarely have views which are worth including" very un-wiki. In any case we do not license their "views", we license only those that are based on verifiable sources. -- Lucas (Talk) 02:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"RfC" on Lucas

I am gathering evidence against Lucas, who is proving a 'difficult editor' for a number of us. I have started a page here. This includes most of his recent edits, but nothing on his articles that sadly ended up as cases for deletion. Anyone with suitable diffs, please put them there, or on my talk page. Let's clear up this town once and for all. Dbuckner 12:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

What Dbuckner is attempting to do is to take some rather involved discussions and arguments between two people. Cut out completely one-side's comments, replies, rebuttals and edits, and present only this one-half as "evidence". Under what kind of rule does this constitute "evidence"? When I say "rule" I mean with what historical or contemporary form of government would you associate this type of "evidence" gathering? Democracy? Autocracy? Totalitarian? Stalinist? Please do not assume this "rfc" has anything to do with "evidence" or justice. And do not be fooled by the officious language. You abuse these words. -- Lucas (Talk) 20:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have always found Lucas very easy to work with. Rick Norwood 19:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That's no surprise. Dbuckner 19:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue of sources

It seems I've opened a can of worms with this disucssion of primary, secondary and tertiary sources. I had noticed before that it came up a few time with regard to whether encylopedias were good sources complared to other texts, journals, etc. But it was never clarified. Now I'm not sure if I'm the one to try and coordinate discussion of this as my views seem to be quite different to two others on here who have expressed views on the matter. Nor do I know if it is a matter best left with the tacit undestanding we all have that published sources are better than none at all.

In any case let us wind-back a little and try to say something basic about it that is undisputable. The first place to look as far as I know to find wiki policy on the matter is WP:OR which is the same page as, WP:NOR. But these policies do not seem to apply directly to philosophy and we need an analogy to see how they apply. The main aspect of WP:OR concerns reliability of sources.

The main issue seems to be in trying to give priority to one set of sources over another. In order to categorise which sources have priority in philosophy one must give a definition of what constitutes a priority source and what constitutes lesser valued (note, was called "deprecated") sources.

Summary of views so far:

Dbucker:

Priority sources: ones that are not "works by great philosophers"

Lesser sources: "works by great philosophers"

Rbellin:

Priority sources: textbooks and histories of philosophy

Lesser sources: philosophical texts

FT2:

Priority sources: "sourced, verifiable"

Lesser sources: non-sourced comments.

I included FT2's descriptions even though it seems that he might refuse making a global distinction. This is perhaps closest to my own view: a published source is generally better than none. We had been trying to follow wiki policy and give priority to some sources over others, but I think it is largely a matter of judgement and skill. Are there any other proposals on this issue? Where do "tertiary" sources fit in, wiki OR does not mention much about them. -- Lucas (Talk) 21:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe the above characterizations are offside. Dean, from what I understand, holds something like what you attribute to Rbellin. And no sources are "deprecated", there are simply those sources (the primaries) that must be dealt with carefully, and those (certain secondaries and tertiaries) which are more indicative of consensus views. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 02:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

offside perhaps but they are open to correction. I agree with what you say about deprecated. But on the WP:OR what they call "primary" sources they do depreciated and indicate that they should be used only on the "rare occasions" where there are not secondary ones. In any case this does not apply so fully to these philosophic sources, so I'll change word "deprecated" in the above. But why do you characterise "Dean"'s view, which view is it that you yourself hold? I mean, I know you think primary are "handle with care" and that you hold the opinion that secondary are "more consensual," but what texts are primary sources and and which are secondary sources, for you. -- Lucas (Talk) 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

First I should say that I understand exactly where you're coming from, because you're coming from where I am. I expressed the same exasperation but a year and a month ago. To quote from 14 January 2006: "Never before have I had the misfortune to be in an encounter where the words of encyclopediae are prized over and above those of actual, respectable researchers within a field. Can you see how frustrating, and outright anti-intellectual, that may seem?"

It may surprise you to learn that I would still endorse that sentiment, so long as it is hedged properly. What was implicitly at issue in my position was whether or not a significant minority opinion exists on some issue; and that depends upon the contemporaneousness of the source, and their noteability (both Wikipedian demands). The issue at that time was what I called "metaphilosophical naturalism", and the source I had in mind was Gilbert Harman, who is both contemporary and world-renouned. My logic was like this. Let it be given that a famous source (H) holds a certain view (p), and this view is contested by some (R) who may be found in prominent tertiary sources. Argument: it doesn't matter where (H) held the view, so long as it was articulated in a public forum. But the key point is that this does not prove a consensus view on the side of the authority (H); rather, it provides sufficiently noteworthy evidence against the notion that (R) reflects a genuine consensus. That means only that this should be taken as sufficient evidence that a noteworthy dispute is going on, protected by Misplaced Pages's NPOV clause.

There are, of course, issues of craftsmanship and Wikipolicy. Perhaps the above would not be sufficient for allowing the views of (H) into the introductory paragraph, but would be sufficient for allowing them in the article. This is because Misplaced Pages prizes, not just verifiability, but also consensus. And consensus means, prize the secondaries and tertiaries a little bit higher than the primaries. (This fact that this part of the paradigm is less-well-known will create all kinds of heartache. IE: I've seen it alleged that Misplaced Pages is anarchistic, but this is a deep misunderstanding: in fact, it is pseudo-anarchistic in process, but conservative-populist in policy.) But that should not be taken to mean that primaries are ignored. They simply must be treated carefully.

This would all seem terribly unjust if secondaries/teritaries truly were all written by persons with heads up their proverbial butts. But that's not necessarily true: it took me no time at all to find the Blackburn quote (in a tertiary source) which defended something like the position I attributed to Harman. That makes for a lock-solid case in favor of (H). And in that case, it doesn't matter who is the ant, and who the giant. There are simply the facts and the policies. Nevertheless, we can recognize the difference between a lock-solid case and a merely plausible case.

I do not know where Dean presently stands with respect to these nuances. But I know for a fact that he is trying to stick to the tertiaries for good reason. I'm not altogether unsympathetic to his priorities. (I've seen what madmen like User:Licorne can do with primary sources.) But your points can, I think, be accomodated, so long as they meet the many caveats that I laid out above: craftsmanship (guided by relevance, economy of words, and weight apportioned to level of contemporary consensus), and verifiability. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 17:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC) { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 17:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrong again. I do not advocate tertiary sources. Secondary sources are papers, books, articles in encyclopedias or compendia when written by named, authoritative source (such as Quinton on OCP). Tertiary sources are compilations of sec. sources by non-expert (such as here). Thus my sourcebook of medieval philosophy lists primary sources on Bonaventura as Latin editions, and English translations. (Technically, translations are less primary than the Latin, and of course even Latin editions are less primary than the manuscripts on which they are based). As secondary sources, it lists books, articles and encyclopedia articles on Bonaventura, where the articles are signed and authoritative. Where you actually find the article is irrelevant (some encyclopedia articles began life as papers, some encyclopedia articles ended up as primary sources). Got that? Dbuckner 19:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC) (Edward Buckner)

Roger. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 21:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Lucidish, I understand from what you are saying that conflicting secondary sources may draw on tertiary one's in considering if they represent a consensus or a minority view. But again you do not say clearly what you consider primary and secondary sources to be. Now the wiki policy gives primary sources in a different way to how we talk of them here, and as Dbuckner suggested we need an analogy to say which sources are to be preferred on wiki philosophy. By the way, Dbuckner this is what wiki says are tertiary sources:

"Tertiary sources are publications, such as encyclopedias, that sum up other secondary sources, and sometimes primary sources"

You seem to suggest that when a "paper" encylopedia is not "summing up" others it is then a preferred source, you never said how to know when is it not "summing up".

The reason perhaps they are tertiary is because they are not usually referred to, refuted etc., by others. So they are not part of the open "peer-review" process and are not generally for purposes of opening themselves up to critique and their philosophical positions are not normally quoted in academic philosophy literature.

Now the comment below by Rick Norwood talks of primaries as papyrus and such, this seems closest to the wiki definition. I feel however that we need to get away from talk of primaries as papyrus etc. and instead say which sources are preferred and which are not, since we are not archaelogists nor journalists. So let me try to summarise once more:

Lucidish:

Priority texts: ones that represent a consensus

Lesser sources: ones contested either by academic texts or philosophy texts or other encyclopedias.

Dbucker:

Priority sources: academic or encyclopedic ones that are not "works by great philosophers", .

Lesser sources: "works by great philosophers"

Rbellin:

Priority sources: textbooks and histories of philosophy

Lesser sources: philosophical texts

FT2:

Priority sources: sourced, verifiable

Lesser sources: non-published sources.

Rick Norwaood:

Priority sources: academic interpretations of manuscripts.

Lesser sources: original manuscripts

I still think there is a problem though. If, for example, Kant says that arithmetic is synthetic a prior and a secondary source written about Kant's work then argues that arithmetic is something else, I do not see how the secondary has any priority. A tertiary source from that time which says "the consensus however is that arithmetic is analytic priori" can not be prioritised either. In fact I'd consider Kant's view historically was probably the stronger or more influential one. So, unlike wiki policy, in philosophy you can't say primary sources are less preferred nor that tertiary, or majoritarian claims, represent the stronger view.

Similarly we can find views on Spinoza by Hegel, eg, that Spinoza was not atheist but acosmist, another one by Russell on Spinoza saying he was a pantheist. And then a little known academic or encylopedist claiming the consensus is that he was atheist. Surely it is the views of Spinoza himself that have the final say. Perhaps the problem is that, in its nature, philosophy is often about competing claims, and that consensus or majoritarian positions are called upon mainly in the form of straw men.

-- Lucas (Talk) 23:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of primary/secondary sources follows Misplaced Pages's, and I take Edward's contrual to be a plausible interpretation of that (despite some misleading language on the NOR page which had just now led me astray). That is: tertiaries sum up x or y, secondaries synthesize x with y, primaries are x or y. Given that, I don't care one whit whether we use secondaries or tertiaries, so long as they are reputable. It seems to me that it is a red herring to focus on the tertiary/secondary distinction, when the real issue is what is scholarly and what is not. For example, a secondary scholarly source would laugh an "analytic a priori" or "synthetic a posteriori" interpretation of Kantian arithmetic into oblivion, and a tertiary one would never even broach some interpretation that is so far from the mainstream. The emphasis is upon respectability. A tertiary or secondary source that is written by some crank underneath London Bridge is not what we're looking for.

The point in warding against primaries is that they are often difficult to interpret and open a can of worms that is best left for the scholarly journals to deal with. The entire point is that we don't necessarily have the whole story on what Spinoza himself meant, and this is a hermeneutic puzzle that is resolved by appealing to vetted, plain-spoken professionals. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 02:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, focus should be on if it is scholarly or not, rather than secondary or tertiary. But there may be other reasons not to be lifting stuff from competing encylopedias. Scholarly I would suggest is something that is open for other scholars to reply on, journal articles, academic textbooks, etc..

I'm not sure what you mean by someone laughing at these matters, sounds like a case of unwarranted superiority when the case seems to be that most of the "laughing, academics" are relying on ideas, not of their own, but of later philosophers in the canon. So, for example, in order to laugh at "analytic a priori" etc. they rely upon Quine or Wittgenstein.

On Spinoza, would a cited source from, Wichita academic, "Wayne Stewble" from 1955 saying that Spinoza was an atheist carry more weight than Hegel saying that Spinoza was not atheist but acosmist?

In summary do you think I should change:

Lucidish:

Priority texts: ones that represent a consensus

Lesser sources: ones contested either by academic texts or philosophy texts or other encyclopedias.

to:

Priority sources: academic or encyclopedic ones that are not works by great philosophers.

Lesser sources: works by great philosophers

-- Lucas (Talk) 05:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The notion of "scholarship" will depend largely on peer-reviewed sources, true. But that doesn't exclude (say) the Blackwell volumes, which are recognized, cited, and reviewed in such journals. It isn't just being in a peer-reviewed journal that may count, but also being discussed by peer-reviewed journals.

My rejoinder to your Kant example was just to say that any person who attributes to Kant an absurd reading, is not going to get much of a push in the scholarship. On Spinoza: you'd have to cite your source, but we'd also have to pay particular attention to how such comments as that by Stewble have been received.

My views are identical to Misplaced Pages policy. The high-priority texts are the ones that represent contemporary consensus views (preference for scholarly secondary and tertiary sources is a means to that end). Primary sources are admissible, so not of lesser or lower priority, but they are not preferred unless they are used in the most literal, exegetical way. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 00:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

But please, always to call it -- research

I note that Misplaced Pages does not have articles on primary reserach and secondary research. It should. My own impression is as follows.

Primary sources are original manuscripts and physical artifacts such as the Rhind papyrus or the Rosetta stone. Secondary sources are articles written by people who have examined the Rhind papyrus or the Rosetta stone and who publish their findings, usually (these days) in refereed academic journals, in earlier times in books or monographs. I have not heard the phrase "tertiary sources" in my scholarly reading. What I have heard is "scholarly", describing a book or article written by someone who has actually read the secondary sources, and "popular", describing a book or article written by someone who has only read the scholarly books and articles, not the primary or secondary sources, and now tries to simplify those for the general reader. Usually scholarly books and articles are written by experts in the field, popular books and articles by professional writers who are not experts in the field.

People who write for Misplaced Pages can make their greatest contribution when they write about their own areas of expertise (in my case, mathematics and comic strips). Sometimes, however, if we have read primary and secondary sources widely and carefully, as well as scholarly books on a subject, we get tempted to say something about, oh, I don't know, maybe philosophy.

A person who has only read popular books on a subject should not try to write about that subject.

Footnotes may refer to primary or secondary sources, or to scholarly works. They should only reference popular works in order to make a point about the popular work being referenced.

Rick Norwood 19:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, Rick. See: primary source, secondary source, tertiary source. Unless you mean "Wikipolicy pages" or make a distinction between sourcing and research... { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 21:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

My comment was about the redlinks in the article research. The articles primary source and secondary source are good. Tertiary source is short, controversial, and contradicts the other two articles. It should be deleted. Rick Norwood 13:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary (again)

It is obvious from the discussions here that (apart from Ben) the people involved have not read WP:OR. Since people are evidently incapable of following a link, let me digress here. The three pillars of WPOR are as follows:

• Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought
• Articles should only contain verifiable content from reliable sources without further analysis
• Content should not be synthesized to advance a position

Which in fact boils down to one pillar (the first statement) supported by the two below (verifiable reliable sources + not analysis or synthesis). It doesn't use the word 'scholarly', it uses the word 'verifiable and reliable'. Verifiable is obvious, 'reliable' is explained as: "books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." Then the policy defines primary, secondary and tertiary sources. It is these definitions only that we are concerned about.

Lucas says" So, unlike wiki policy, in philosophy you can't say primary sources are less preferred nor that tertiary, or majoritarian claims, represent the stronger view." That is fine for people doing original research, for the aim of original research is truth. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Ergo, no original research allowed in Wiki. Got that? Dbuckner 09:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This quote from me that you mention is not part of my understanding of wiki policy. You here "synthesis" your own version of what I was saying. If you look at the quote from me you will notice a little word at the beginning, "So". This indicates that it follows from something said prior to it which you leave out, and you create a whole new section here in order to do it. Why you do this? Because otherwise you would not be able to make your point. Remember my position (stated clearly in the above section) is that verifiable sources are what is required, after that it comes to skill and judgement. From discussion above it seems clear that anything other than this is tentatively extra and depends on which editor you speak to. My "extra" opinion at the moment, unlike your "extra" opinion, is that I do not consider major philosophers in general to be less preferable sources than other ones. I say "at the moment" because I've not seen any argument against this so far, even though its been a useful discussion of the skill involved in choosing sources. -- Lucas (Talk) 10:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• I was not disagreeing with you. I just said it was not wiki policy.
• You now say "my position (stated clearly in the above section) is that verifiable sources are what is required, after that it comes to skill and judgement." Wiki policy is not just about verifiability. It says no original research in Misplaced Pages. This means verifiable content from reliable sources, which has not been interpreted or synthesized to advance a position. Do you agree?
• You say 'I do not consider major philosophers in general to be less preferable sources than other ones'. What you consider is irrelevant. You need to comply with Wiki policy on editing.
• You say "I've not seen any argument against this so far". The argument is that the works of major philosophers are considered primary sources according to Wiki policy, because they are (a) documents close to the original source and (b) they require analysis and synthesis before they can be directly included in an article. Do you agree? Dbuckner 11:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you aught comply with wiki policy too. The problem of course is saying just what that policy is. Now the subject so far has been about sources and not on analysing or synthesing. But even on this simple matter of sources there seems to be agreement only insofar as we all agree that they are required, there is less agreement about which sources are to be preferred. You prefer sources that are not major philosophers others give no such prefernce.

On the matter of analysing a philosopher's position or synthesising a position, this must be carried out with reference to sources. One cannot give a philosopher's position ("put forward a position on him) without taking it out of the context of his work, and this means analysing it. So in giving a certain position from a philosopher you must have a source to say why this position is given rather than another one. The same criteria apply to synthesis, you must source to show why this synthesis is valid and relevant. -- Lucas (Talk) 18:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Two cats in a sack.

It has been a long time (or so it seems to this lurker) that the discussion on this page has been about the article. I've lived through many a fan feud, but Talk:Philosophy is not the place to indulge in personalities. Rick Norwood 13:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. --Ludvikus 14:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The talk has been (mostly ) about what counts as a secondary source, and is directly related to the possibility of making any progress on this page. I and a number of other people (Mel Etitis, KD, probably 271828182, probably Mtevfrog) would like to change the current introduction so that it unambiguously characterises the method of philosophy as rational, critical. Three editors, however, have consistently opposed this, namely you (Rick), Lucas and Ludvikus. Many sources have been cited as supporting this claim about the method of philosophy, you have continued to deny (especially Lucas) that these count as secondary sources.

On discussions about personalities, well, those have concerned the behaviour of Lucas, who is making it difficult for bona fide editors to make progress on the article. Again, that concerns progress on the article. Dbuckner 15:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Rick, the latest conversation has been on a matter which is crucial to the development of the page: how we treat primary and secondary sources. Also, Edward had some quite valid concerns over my edits to the page not long ago, which may be found above, and upon which he acted appropriately. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 15:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

And I must admit I am floundering on that issue. I am too new to be as familiar with Wiki policy, but I am balking a little at writing an article on, say, Being and Time, if it has to cite commentaries on Being and Time rather than the book itself. Maybe I am misunderstanding. Note, I am not saying it can't be done, but it might have to be left to people who have a collection of such commentaries. KD Tries Again 16:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)KD

It's a matter of judgment. Remember WP:OR was brought in as a weapon against cranks and trolls. If you write something that, as an expert, you feel is one of the things most other experts on the subject would agree with as obvious, don't bother to cite. No other expert editor will challenge you. By contrast, if a crank writes something silly, you can then challenge them, and revert. If they persist in reverting without citation, off they go to jail. If a crank challenges you about something, you will probably have to provide a citation (whether this has to go into the article, or whether you merely have to satisfy the crank, I'm not sure). If you get repeatedly get challenged on things that don't need citation, send them to jail.

What really needs hardening is the attitude to these sort of people. As you've seen, there's a tendency to blame experienced and expert editors for reacting badly to cranks. I'm hoping this will change. Dbuckner 17:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm relieved the discussion is less shrill this time around. Dbuckner's position is basically that of most serious academic-subject Wikipedians, but I have to say one further thing: I think better sourcing can be very useful even for the parts of an article that are "common knowledge" to experts in a field. It serves three useful purposes there: first, prophylactically protecting against cranks' challenges and allowing non-expert editors to revert them more easily; second, providing further reading to interested lay readers; third, perhaps most important, it forces self-clarification on the expert writer during the writing process. It has often been true in my own writing for Misplaced Pages that finding secondary, pedagogical sources improves and clarifies the writing, rather than just providing support for common-knowledge claims. So, to take KD's example, it's surely better to have an expert-written article on Being and Time than a crank-written, original-research one, even if both rely on no source but the original text; but best of all, and the eventual desired goal for all Misplaced Pages articles, is to have an article that cites many secondary sources like commentaries and scholarly articles, rather than doing the interpretation in its own (Misplaced Pages's own) voice. -- Rbellin|Talk 19:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The "method of philosophy as rational, critical" . - Why, Dbuckner, do you insist? This article is not about Analytic philosophy. And the three of us recognize that Continental philosophy recognizes that man is not so rational and critical as one would have him be. These often are philosophers who, inter alia, have been very strongly influenced by Marx and Freud (and it is unfortunate that Freud does not fit neatly into the pigeon-hole of philosophy). How do you defend against the charge that "rationality" is merely a personal preference of one who wishes to characterize philosophy so? Suppose 90% of the world-class philosophers agree with you. But what about the other 10%? Are they wrong?

I think that the three of us just recognize that there are major world-class philosophers who claim that man (including great philosophers) are not as Rational as we would like them to be. Why is that such a great insurmountable problem? --Ludvikus 17:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I second Rbellin's comment above.

My objection to "rational" being pushed harder in the introduction than it already is has nothing to do with "primary" vs. "secondary" but rather has to do with citing philosophers from one school of philosophy and ruling out by definition all other schools. It's a little like a Harvard man defining "university" as "a center of learning in Massachusetts" and citing other Harvard men to back him up. It seems to me that the current introduction: "Some encyclopedias have described philosophy in terms of intellectual inquiry and the use of critical analysis and reasoning, as well as dialogue or introspection, to solve intractable and fundamental problems. Others state that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself." makes Dbuckner's point as strongly as it needs to be made. Rick Norwood 20:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

But this is your own research. What I object to is the implication in "Some encyclopedias have described philosophy in terms of intellectual inquiry ..." that perhaps other encyclopedias have described philosophy as something else. You have yet to produce a single citation for your claim that it is otherwise. The onus is, according to WP:OR to show that there is a significant minority with an opposing view. You have not even shown that. Which encyclopedia or reference book says that philosophy is not rational or critical enquiry? Dbuckner 20:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

One further consider the folowing quote from NPOV:

-If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

-If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

-If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

-In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all. Richiar 00:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Rick, you are misreading. Mere description is not the same as definition. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 01:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? I was making a reference to the comments of Ludvikus and minority opinion "...what about the other 10 %, are they wrong?...". My comments are a direct quote from NPOV, meant to say that even if Ludvikus produces something from an encyclopedia or reference, it may still not be appropriate for the article. I was elaborating on DBuckners comments above mine.

Further, Ludvikus makes the plea that man (including great philosophers) is considered by (some) Great Philosophers to not be as Rational as we would like them to be. So is this what the disruption for the past month has been about? That people are irrational? (Yes, I am reviewing the Philosophy archives, yes I am taking into condsideration the Analytic Continental debate, yes I am reading everyones comments on the talk pages and learning from them, yes, I am a layperson, and I don't wish to intrude where others have more competence than I). But I really don't understand the point Ludvikus is making, it seems to makes no sense to anything relevant to the writing of this article, and if this is the substance of his campaign, then I can understand why some people are hostile toward this editor.

If I am misunderstanding something, I do apologize, and would wish to receive a little more clarification. And sorry if I am detracting from the progress of the article. I try not to do so. Thanks.Richiar 03:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Not you Rich! I meant Rick Norwood. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 03:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It was the great British Empirisists who first cast doubt on the possibility of philosophical development by way of principles of Rationality, or Reason. And the destructive blow came from Hume. Kant attempted to patch things up with his Critiques. But he to was found wanting by Hegel, and Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind/Spirit. Marx may be abstracted as saying that philosophy reflects class interests. Perhaps the point is hard to see because Analytic Philosophy does better with the easier problems: logic, ontology, etc., but fails in ethics, politics, etc. It is the latter subjects that have been more susscessfully treated by Analytic philosophy means; whereas on the Continent, ethics and politics are of greater concern.

I think it is necessary to be modest in defining, or characterizing, philosophy. And claiming that philosophy is rational, or critical, inquery, is an insult to Continental philosophers and thinkers who have been preoccupied with the Irrationality of Man in the 19th and 20th centuries.

But also, the Philosophers who do not find Rationality as the characterizing criteria are not easy - but often easily dismissed by their Anglo-American opponents. Jürgen Habermas in his Knowledge and Human Interests (1968/1971), Ch. 9 (Reason and Interest: Retrospect on Kant and Fichte), p. 191, says:

       ... The rigorously empirical sciences are subject to the transcendental conditions
  of instrumental action, while the hermeneutic sciences proceed on the level of communicative
  action.
       The relations of language, action, and experience differ in principle for the two forms
  of science. ...

Yours truly, Ludvikus 04:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. I'm going to reply to the above in parts:

1) "It was the British Empiricists who first cast doubt . . .etc". Yeah, I'm sure there were great British empiricists.

2) "The destructive blow came from Hume..." Nobody has that much power, except in fairy tales. George W. Bush thinks he does, but he's not doing so hot right now.

3) Then you get lost in rambling.

4) "I think that it is important to be modest in defining, or characterizing, Philosophy. Well, thats nice. Modesty is a good thing, As long as you think that, fine. If that thought begins to convert to a nerve impulse that goes down your arms into the muscles of your fingers, to the keys of the keyboard of your computer and becomes an agenda campaign, be prepared for a cruise missle attack from me. I might ask you what the relationship is between modesty and philosophy, but then you'd have a 3 page reply, which would then require another 12 page explanation, and it the meantime what about what is going on here? There are men and women working here trying to get something done. So don't bring this stuff up unless people what you to tell them about it.

You and I are not the ones to decide what philosophy should be. I am a lay person. I read what interests me, and try to apply it to my life. It is for philosophers to tell us what philosophy is, and you, are not a philosopher. You need to do things like open the door for people when they come in, get them a glass of water, ask them how their day went, that sort of thing, but not talk to people about philosophy, because you don't know what philosophy is. You are a con man: the main man you have conned is yourself.

Rationalism is an insult to the Continentals?I don't think so. Now you're creating some artifcial drama here. First of all, I'm sure the Continentals are much better at defending themselves than you are. Let them take care of themselves. What is that to you? Go get some yankee tickets.

There could be some interesting discussion about the Contintntal philosophers you mention, I tend to prefer them myself, but you take everything out of context and stir up debate. People are to busy, they have work to do here, if it doesn't suit you, then go, and write some articles about cats. But don't try to keep spoiling the serous work others are trying to do. Richiar 06:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ludvikus is in fact correct to point out that Continental philosophers have argued the fundamental irrationality of man. Many other philosophers have done so. But as I point out below, that is not the issue: it is about whether the correct method of philosophy is rational enquiry. Many people cannot are ungrammatical. That does not mean that the method of grammar involves bad grammar. Best Dbuckner 07:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The Method of Philosophy as Rational Enquiry

1. Rick Norwood argues that defining philosophy as rational enquiry, and using appropriate secondary and tertiary sources to prove it is like a Harvard man defining "university" as "a center of learning in Massachusetts" and citing other Harvard men to back him up. It is ruling out by definition other schools. I don't follow this argument. There are no secondary or tertiary sources that define Harvard as a center of learning in Massachusetts. But there are many such sources that define the method of philosophy as rational enquiry. I have asked Norwood many times to produce a single source that justifies his own definition, but he has not done so. The policy says that "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts" Commonly accepted reference texts say that the method of philosophy is rational enquiry. It says that "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". Rick Norwood, please tell us about prominent adherents of the view that the method of philosophy is not rational enquiry? Apart from you, Ludvikus and Lucas, that is.

2. Ludvikus argues that some philosophers hold that man is not so rational and critical as one would have him be. Very true. And most mathematics teachers hold that people do not add and subtract as well as they would like. But, nevertheless, the method of mathematics does not involve faulty arithmetic, any more than the method of philosophy involves faulty reasoning. The fact that plenty of people, and plenty of philosophers reason poorly, does not imply anything about the method of philosophy. Note Ludvikus has used this argument many times, and many times this flaw in his argument has been pointed out. I shall start collecting edit trails on this one.

Proposed Introduction

The present introduction is a mess. I propose to move to a version of the introduction we had back in December 2006, supported by myself and Mel Etitis here. I have modified it to reflect expert views on the Greek spelling, as discussed earlier. Thus it runs as follows:

Philosophy - literally 'love of wisdom', derived from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophía: love of wisdom), compounded from φίλος (phílos: friend, or lover) and σοφία (sophía: wisdom) - is an academic discipline concerned with the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action, and reality. Its method is rational enquiry.

Its main branches are metaphysics, the theory of what things can ultimately be said to exist, epistemology, the question of the conditions for knowledge, and the justification for claims to knowledge, ethics, the analysis of what sorts of moral values there are, and logic, the basic principles of reasoning and deduction.

I don't want to hear people's opinions on this subject. I want to hear reasoned arguments based on authoritative secondary and tertiary sources that this definition does not represent the significant majority view, as defined in WP:OR. Dbuckner 07:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid an opinion is what I intend to offer nonetheless. The current intro. does still have the written-by-committee aftertaste on it. Moving to this one is reasonable but leaving the current one is not unreasonable; I can live with either. I do like seeing academic discipline in there because that is what it really is. In what you propose I'd want to shorten the etymology and put the further details of it later in the article. I also think it's appropriate in the intro. to mention that what is called Eastern philosophy has a somewhat different look-and-feel.

An unscientific sampling of the WP entries of various university dept. names shows most are in the range of four-ish paragraphs long, though some paragraphs are just one sentence. Only physics had just a single paragraph intro. The suggested intro. here may be too brief. JJL 14:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

OK then let's try this. A little longer, leaves out the etymology (but remember what a fight there as about that), and has a bit about the non-Western traditions. It is based on some paragraphs contributed by Peter King (English philosopher who participated here briefly before being frightened off by the antics).

Philosophy (literally 'love of wisdom') is an academic discipline concerned with the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action, and reality. It is generally agreed to be a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions or theories. The method involves rational and rigorous enquiry. Its investigations are, unlike those of astrology, religion, etc., wedded to reason, making no unexamined assumptions, no leaps based purely on analogy, revelation or authority.

There is no general agreement about the main branches of of philosophy, as there have been different, equally acceptable divisions at different times, and the divisions are often relative to the concerns of philosophers in different periods. They also overlap considerably. Nevertheless, they are generally held to include metaphysics, the theory of what things can ultimately be said to exist, epistemology, the question of the conditions for knowledge, and the justification for claims to knowledge, ethics, the analysis of what sorts of moral values there are, and logic, the basic principles of reasoning and deduction.

What is called 'Western philosophy' is a tradition that begins with Plato and Aristotle, which developed more or less continuously through the medieval and early modern periods until the present day. However, philosophy is not unique to the West. There are a number of intellectual traditions outside the West which may be broadly characterised as 'philosophy'. See Eastern philosophy.

Dbuckner 14:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Edward, a year's worth of arguments and citations have been provided to you in favor of keeping the relevant material. { Ben S. Nelson } _Lucidish 14:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There are two issues. The first is that the style of the current version is horrible, and needs cleaning up. Would anyone object if at least I worked on that? The second is that it is inaccurate. Which bits precisely do you want to keep? The bits I've omitted, and the reasons for omitting them are as follows:

It was generally agreed that "Still others argue that philosophy is continuous with the best practices in every intellectual field" is pretty confusing. It should be there, but not in the introduction.

I've already argued that 'some .. others … still others' is grossly misleading.

The sentence 'The definition of philosophy is itself a theme of philosophy' is clumsy and awkward. As someone else said, the subject of literature discusses literature, the subject of medicine discusses medicine. All subjects concern themselves with what the precise boundaries of the subject should be.

Dbuckner 15:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Analytic vs. Continental

Beyond Analytic Philosophy: Doing Justice to What We Know by Hao Wang (1988) ISBN 0-262-73080-4, pp. 115-6, says:

       I have often been struck by what might be called the dilemma of nothing-but and
  something-more in attempts to achieve a comprehensive philosophical position. a nothing-but
  philosophy tends to begin in an elegant way and then, if it attracts enough attention and
  criticism, undergoes stages of liberalization until it runs up by a new and different path
  against familiar difficulties in early philosophies. ... On the other hand, if one begins by
  taking a flexible enough framework to include the something-more, it may be so difficult to
  penetrate the large structure that one cannot even separate out the more reasonable parts
  from the rest.
       ... The contrast between 'analytic' and 'continental' philosophers may be summarized by
  such a distinction. The analytic philosophers tend to do better with the 'nothing but' part;
  the continental philosophers tend to begin with and to concentrate their attention on the
  'something more' part. In the case of individual philosophers, J. Habermas, for instance,
  appears to display in public his continued efforts, unsuccessful thus far, to blend a
  positivist cum pragmatist element of nothing-but with an elusive something-more element along
  the tradition of the average German philosophers.

Dbuckner's compaign to characterise philosophy as "rational enquiry" effectively dismisses Continental philosophers as simply failing to comprehend the rational nature of their philosophical inquiries. In fact, their concern is precisely with the failure to identify what makes an inquiry Rational - besides merely calling it so. --Ludvikus 15:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

"The Linguistic Turn"

Recent Essays in Philosophical Method ed. by Richard Rorty (1967/1970), Ch. 28, by Yehoshua Bar-Hillel, A Prerequisite for Rational Philosophical Discussion opens with the following observation:

       Communication between philosophers has been deteriorating during the last decades.
  Logical empiricists and British linguistic philosophers have been branding large parts
  of the output of their speculative colleagues as 'nonsense' and 'literally unintelligible'.
  Speculative metaphysicians, after having recovered from the first shock, either just
  disregard these declarations, or else declare, on their part, that the standards of
  intelligibility employed by the critics are arbitrary.

I suspect that this campaign - under the banner of Rational Enquiry - is a smoke screen to dismiss Continentals as perpetrators of Nonsense. That, I think, is the view of Mel Etitis - who, by the way, is Wikistalking me at the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Here we have another fine example (sarcasm) of rational enquiry, regarding a "bizarre" observation concerning allegedly myself. Dbuckner, as I said before, I recognize your dedication to philosophy. So I ask you to look all around you, and see how all human methods are infested with irrationality. This Misplaced Pages is One Text, in a sense. Why must we take a narrow view of things? Look more carefully at the methods used to silence one another here. I realize this may be distasteful. But progress often takes place by stepping out of the box. In my opinion, you have too much invested in that word Rational - especially in the light of being surrounded by so much irrationality. The word just dangles there - it does nothing to improve the condition of philosophy. Yet you, Dbuckner are the most gifted socially - if anyone can make this discourse more Rational - it is you who can do it. Rationality belongs in our Meta-Misplaced Pages - and it still is not there to the degree it can be. --Ludvikus 16:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this as having anything to do with analytical vs. continental. Both groups argue their cases; if analytical does so in a more formal style, that doesn't mean that continental is less rational at its base. Continental philosophers give reasons for believing things, don't they? Marx attempted to support his positions, which he had arrived at by considering the state of affairs as he saw it--that is, by a rational inquiry into economics, politics, and class? Would any continental philosopher say "There's no good reason for believing this stuff--it just looked good to me"? (Hold the Derrida jokes!) I'm sure an example could be adduced, but fundamentally, if it isn't supported by an argument using logic and marshaling evidence, it doesn't sound like (Western) philosophy to me. JJL 20:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. And as far as Marx is concerned, he goes so far as to claim that dialectical materialism surpasses mere ideology and is in fact scientific. Hardly an embrace of the irrational. KD Tries Again 20:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)KD

pure reason

Dbuckner challenges me to produce a major philosopher who says there is more to philosophy than reason. I have answered that challenge several times: Kant is probably the most famous philosopher to make that assertion. I've also quoted Carlyle, who is not in the same league with Kant, but who has a respectable reputation.

But my main point, which I have made several times and which Dbuckner has never answered, is this. If the question of whether or not rational investigation is desirable or even possible is not a philosophical question, then to what discipline do such questions belong? Rational discourse should be defended by evidence, not handed down like holy writ as part of the definition.

Rick Norwood 15:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The challenge was for you to give a single citation showing that the method of philosophy does not include rational enquiry. The quote from Carlyle does not show that, as I already pointed that. And I have already answered your second point too. I said that this was an interesting question, but it was original research. If the textbook definitions say the method of philosophy is rational enquiry, then Misplaced Pages says that too. You have still not produced a single authoritative reference saying that the method of philosophy is not rational enquiry. How long does this have to go on? Dbuckner 15:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

On your point about Kant, if you remember I challenged you to locat this in Kant. You replied that you find reading Kant rather tedious and difficult (this does not surprise me). In fact, Kant says that the method of philosophy is rational enquiry. See the page Talk:Philosophy/Quotations under the section: Kant. Dbuckner 15:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Something about rational/reasoned/logical should be in there. It definitely is an important part of being able to recognize philosophy as being such--or as is said about math., answers without reasons is magic, not mathematics. Philosophers, like mathematicians, argue. JJL 15:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, exactly. It's like saying that certain kinds of mathematics don't involve proofs. In what sense would it be mathematics any more? Dbuckner 15:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Philosophy is also not moon exploration - but I cannot think of a single philosopher who says that (probably because no one does). Does it follow that philosophy is moon exploration? But why, Dbuckner, do you ignore Marx? Does he not say that philosophy reflects class interests? Is that not tantamount to saying that it is not rational inquiry? Do you think the oil industry presents us with rational arguments against global warming? Or does the cigaret industry present us with rational arguments that smoking does not lead to cancer? Why do you not see that Marx maintains that philosophers, in the academies of the West, are not insulated from similar irrationalities? Do you believe that their abode in their ivory towers makes them immune from their class interests? I cannot understand why you are so dismissive of Marx - except perhaps for your own possible prejudice against him. There is probably no better counterexample (to rationality) than Karl Marx. Now you are not required to accept Marx - but how can you dismiss him as a philosopher? What Marx did to Hegel is common knowledge to Continentals - but not so to Anglo-Amercans. Hegel saw the History of Philosophy is a kind of unfolding of a Universal Mind in History. The Dialectic is the constant evolution of philosophies into their opposites with a synthesis at the third stage. So what is Rational today becomes Irrational tomorrow. Marx saw this not as a Hegelian Idealist (the Real is Rational and vica versa), but as a materialist. Philosdophy is therefore (for Marx) an Idiology, or a collection thereof - and as such - a reflection of class interests. Now you may not like, appreciate, or understand, this train of thought. But it exists. And as a Wikipedian Encyclopedist, you have a duty to present it to the reader. On the other hand, perhaps class interests are such here, on Misplaced Pages, that Capitalism requires the silencing of Continental views (I'm only following up the Marxist argument and viewpoint). Yours truly, --Ludvikus 17:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ludvikus should be reported immediately for the personal asides on this page today, and I'll be happy to do that. As for the general discussion, there really is no stalemate unless someone can produce not just any authority, but a notable authority to the effect that philosophy is not a rational exercise. And I am not wedded to the word "rational" - I am wedded to the idea that philosophy does need to be distinguished from other disciplines by reference to what is - obviously - its method: the advancement, consideration and acceptance or refutation of arguments. I myself have produced the handful of authorities I can find which would oppose this - Lyotard only in one work (he rejected the position himself), Shestov, and arguably Bataille. Deleuze would place the emphasis a little differently. These are grains of sand on a two thousand year old beach. Footnote them by all means, but do not use them as grounds to argue that Misplaced Pages must be unique among encyclopaedias in being unable to say what philosophy is. KD Tries Again 17:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)KD

I presume we are required to engage here in a rational discourse. Your personal attack upon me, that I "should be reported immediately," and that you shall be "happy to do that" sounds to me like you think we are in kindergarden. Why must you police my remarks in such an irrational way? Why don't you tell us what you consider a notable authority? Am I supposed to deduce from your threatening remark above that you do not consider Marx such an authority? You seem to sweep over the argument that has been presented - why must we find authorities which maintain that philosophy is not a rational exercise? It seems to me that the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. I have the Continent of Europe on my side. It seems to me that part of your arguments is to "report me immediately". What is the aim - is it not to get rid of me and my argument? Isn't that precisely the method employed by Stalin and Hitler? With whom one doesn't agree - him one must silence. That's precisely what moved the Frankfurt school to take issue with Rationality in the 20th century. Are you going to report that immediately? And take pleasure in it as well? Is that the kind of Argument or "excercise" you call Rational? --Ludvikus 22:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

We are not here to do philosophy

But to write about philosophy. Keep that in mind. Banno 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

1. See the article Definition of philosophy for the sources of this definition of philosophy

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