Misplaced Pages talk:Fringe theories

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ferahgo the Assassin (talk | contribs) at 18:30, 11 March 2022 (→Proposed addition: Relationship of WP:FRINGE to other policies and guidelines). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 18:30, 11 March 2022 by Ferahgo the Assassin (talk | contribs) (→Proposed addition: Relationship of WP:FRINGE to other policies and guidelines)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This page is for discussion of the wording of the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories guideline, not for discussion of specific theories.
To discuss problems with specific theories, articles, and users, please go to the
Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, thank you.

Archives

Previous requests for comment

Does this guideline have consensus? (April 2007)
RfC on particular attribution section (June 2008)
Is there enough argument to downgrade this guideline to the status of an essay? (July 2008)
Is the label "fringe" inherently pejorative? (July 2008)

Bold suggestion: Rename/overhaul

Copied from Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

I trired to re-read the discussion above and the policy itself, it comes to my mind that a good deal of confusion is the disparity of the policy title and its main point/nutshell: " To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. "

It other words, it does not matter how we graded the views that differ from mainstream: what matters is that they are non-mainstream. Clearly, there is a continuous spectrum and some ideas may float within this range. (For example a bold mainstream hypothesis may become dubious in view of new data, but the proponent will jealously defend it. While he does decent science, it may be called "minority view", when he slips into adding unjustified assumptions, mainstream starts dismissing him altogether, thus shifting into "fringe" area; and at the extreme the proponent may even go full crackpot.)

Therefore I will suggest to rename the policy into Misplaced Pages:Non-mainstream views (NB: not "theories") and focus more on the WP:DUE aspect, rather than on splitting hairs about the term, which is mostly pejorative indeed: I quickly browsed Google Books and most of them who refer to "fringe" actually focus on pseudo-science. In other words, we must focus on a reasonable classification/recognition of the degree of acceptance, rather on the degree of fringeness of a claim/view/theory, i.e., avoid sticking to label-sticking. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

From the perspective of a relatively new editor, I certainly agree that this policy / guideline area needs an overhaul. But, there really are topics that are pseudoscience / fringe. Like, for example, flat earth, creation science, and Time Cube. We need a policy to deal with those sorts of things, narrowly construed. JerryRussell (talk) 20:30, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

The term "Pseudoscience" is rather well-defined and easy to deal with. We can have articles on notable pseudoscience, but no regular articles on, say, Earth or bird control can include anything pseudoscientific. We don't cite Time Cube in Greenwich Time article. And this is rather adequately covered already. If you think something is missing, please make specific suggestions. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:59, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I think we're both saying that the problem is, all sorts of minority theories are categorized as "Fringe", which is a pejorative, and then treated the same as pseudoscience. We have some policies like PARITY and ONEWAY that seem like they should be used only for pseudoscience, while WP:DUE is much more widely applicable. FALSEBALANCE is part of the NPOV policy, and seems pretty general and flexible; I think I classed it unfairly with PARITY and ONEWAY above. I think the proposal is to do away with the Fringe label, and use "non-mainstream" except when "pseudoscience" is clearly applicable. JerryRussell (talk) 22:11, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

What about simply renaming the board to "Fringe theories and pseudoscience"? :bloodofox: (talk) 21:15, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

My suggestion was to avoid specific labels altogether, thus allowing the inclusion of not exactly fringe, but really minority/nonnotable views. In particular, quite often we see pieces of text like that " Profs A and B in a 26 December 2024 study of psychodermic response based on a sample of 68 volunteers concluded that psychos respond to skin stimuli slower than mainstream theories predicted." Of course we have WP:EXTRAORDINARY/WP:PRIMARY/WP:UNDUE, but why not cover it all neatly here, as applied to the specific case of something which is not mainstream (whether yet or already). Staszek Lem (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

References

citing these profs A and B

if you start with the NPOV policy, and the discussion oF WEIGHT and of PSCI there, and the clear discussion of how you determine WEIGHT and what is UNDUE based on what (actually) reliable sources say together, you can see that the FRINGE guideline just complements the NPOV, and does so in a way that is pretty clear. If you start with FRINGE and work backwards, it is much harder. And we cannot legislate WP:CLUE; it does take an understanding to deploy FRINGE. Jytdog (talk) 00:43, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- WP:CLUE redirect to a bot. I guess it was not your intention? Staszek Lem (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- I see your point. However I don't want to "start" with FRINGE. Please re-read my suggestion. I said that the text of the guideline does not match its title. My suggestion is to rename the policy and make the explanatory part more general. Another option, which is possibly less drastic, is to start the guideline with the phrase which clarifies our language, something like, "In wikipedia parlance, a fringe theory/view/claim is broadly understood to be a theory/view/claim which gained very little or no support in mainstream science. These minority views may range from outright pseudoscience to novel bold ideas or new experimental results which did not enjoy a general acceptance or confirmation yet. While typically the term 'fringe' is used pejoratively, in Misplaced Pages we understand it literally: 'on the fringe of the mainstream knowledge' and therefore fringe views have little or no weight in general Misplaced Pages articles. " Staszek Lem (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
  - Oops, my bad. We already have something like this. "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." However IMO it is misplaced into the section "Identifying fringe theories". IMO the definition must be at the very top of the lede. This will remove misunderstandings due to tl;dr right away. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
    - I agree with this renaming and believe "fringe" is POV while "non mainstream" or "extreme minority view" are more objective. I especially believe that any policy stating only rules suitable for hard science cannot be invoked in the human sciences (history, religion, biography, even economics or ethics or philosophy) and proposed some ways to deal with that as below - which I suggest be a different policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 04:57, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Historicism in science and intellectual history

Historically influential theories that are either believed by non-specialists or which are still applicable to some scope of problems, or which have influenced language or methodology, must be differentiated because they are part of intellectual history as well as science. Examples:
- "F=MA" was considered literally to be true by 19th century scientists, but now is seen as an approximation that applies at low speeds and neither vast nor tiny masses. It was sufficient to get to the Moon.
- Social Darwinism was another historically influential or tragic theory that had huge influence (racism, eugenics, forced sterilization) and did not generally die out until decades after World War II (partly caused by such views), bhy which time humans had developed enough nuclear weapons to destroy all advanced life on Earth thus making the endpoint of unlimited "darwinian" competition undesirable.
- "the ether" has been suggested as just another name for dark matter but its characteristics were never clearly defined
- Particle physics and electromagnetism have two quite different explanations for matter that have waxed and waned over centuries, so it would be incorrect to state one as consensus and the other as merely historical - even if 19th century texts employ more wave & 20 century employ more particle terminology.
Such theories properly fit into intellectual history cannot be ignored nor all their followers necessarily treated as ignorant. In some cases it was not yet possible to experiment or see the logical consequences of a theory. In others terminology has been used to obscure similarity with more current theory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017‎

Pseudoscience

There are arguments that are constructed to look like science, but aren't. To determine whether something is pseudoscientific or merely an alternative theoretical formulation, consider that:

Alternative theoretical formulations generally tweak things on the frontiers of science, or deal with strong, puzzling evidence—which is difficult to explain away—in an effort to create a model that better explains reality. It incrementally changes models and generally does not reject good explanations of phenomena from prior theories.
Pseudoscience generally proposes changes in the basic laws of nature to allow some phenomenon which the supporters want to believe occurs, but lack the strong scientific evidence or rigour that would justify such major changes. Corruption of science itself is often usually claimed.

Pseudoscience usually relies on attacking mainstream scientific theories and methodology while lacking a critical discourse itself. Watch specifically for:

claims that solved problems are impossible to solve (e.g. Biblical creationists)
reliance on weak evidence such as anecdotal evidence or weak statistical evidence (e.g. parapsychology)
indulgence of a suspect theoretical premise (e.g. claims of water memory made by advocates of homeopathy).
conflations of terminology that allow incoherent definitions.

An example of the latter is climate change. Obviously the Earth's climate has changed drastically over its history, but the phrase in its scientific meaning refers to recent rapid unprecedented changes (at least unprecedented within human time on Earth). A highly motivated lobby present the scientific consensus or dominant paradigm as having some problem, but it has proven impossible to disprove either global warming as an overall trend or the narrower anthropogenic global warming or the even narrower CAGW. While all the alternative theories of warming are "fringe" and studies citing them or claiming to support them have all proven irreproducible (as with parapsychology). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017‎

Motives of pseudoscience

Often pseudoscience theories are proliferated as part of a crapflood - a tactic in information warfare whereby a truth in plain sight can be rendered hard to believe by dilution. If the percentage of people believing the science motivates action can be reduced below some critical supermajority, it becomes easy to delay such action, and profits continue. It is not necessary for any new theory to emerge, only to prevent adoption of - and action on - the dominant one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017‎

discredit consensus or establishment

Be careful to differentiate consensus from fringe status, to find answers to the fringe objections in the consensus, and to be especially watchful of WP:COI problems among sources. It can be useful to just enter the name of the theory with "debunked" in a search engine and see who has directly responded to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017‎

discredit or delay policy

Consider medicine as the best analogy for differentiating between science & policy: No matter how many fringe theorists claim that arsenic is good for you, it is still illegal to dump it in your well, and you are entitled to defend yours based on the medical consensus that it is harmful. An argument about how scientific consensus may change is not an argument to ignore policy based on the current consensus.

In any given decade, less than 1% of scientific consensus from the previous decade is typically challenged at all, so it would be entirely wrong and dangerous to claim that safety critical policy is ever dependent on scientific total certainty. It literally never is, policy decisions (as in medicine) are made based on best known science, and if that changes, then, it changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.94.233 (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2017‎

Is this a hoax or a fringe theory?

Please see Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#Is_Warsaw_number_a_hoax?. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I would say it is BOTH. Looking at the history, hoax material was added to a Misplaced Pages article about a fringe theory. Blueboar (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Based upon

Regarding this, the Misplaced Pages:Based upon essay is about what articles should be based upon rather than what any individual statement should be based upon. Of course, the essay can be expanded to address statements in addition to what type of sources an article is primarily or half based upon. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

RM involving interpretation of WP:FRINGE (and MOS:WTW)

FYI – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Talk:List of reportedly haunted locations#Requested move 1 June 2020. Some of the more circular debate there involves interpretation of MOS:WTW with WP:FRINGE. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

POVFIGHTER

FYI – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Misplaced Pages talk:Tendentious editing#POVFIGHTER. Summary: A provision has been added to WP:TE that appears to have implications for this page and editorial activity relating to it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Add shortcuts to better refer to specific fringe categories

Currently we have a single shortcut to the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories section: WP:FRINGE/PS. However, there are three broad categories listed in the section: Pseudoscience (PS), Questionable science, and Alternative theoretical formulations. Our single shortcut seems to refer specifically only to the first category, pseudoscience.

In conversations on topics where there is potential for miscategorization of distinct theories that either overlap or are commonly grouped together in the vernacular, this leads to significant debate about whether or not a certain idea is fringe or not.

For instance, this has come up multiple times regarding COVID-19 and theories about laboratory origins. Generally people think of the pseudoscientific conspiracy theories regarding bioengineering, but this isn't the only topic. There's also some questionable/junk science, either from those without relevant experience or far outside the norms of peer review and open transparency. Generally the problem comes with the alternative theoretical formulations, specifically an unknown collection and inadvertent exposure to a bat virus in a lab environment. This is very clearly an area of legitimate scientific inquiry (as the joint China-WHO team evaluated it, but not the bioengineering theory), but also arguably fringe for being the apparent minority opinion. I can refer to WP:FRINGE regarding any of these topics, but this can be misinterpreted in multiple ways.

My proposal is to add two additional shortcuts, WP:FRINGE/QUES (or similar) and WP:FRINGE/ALT (or similar). This would allow easier distinction when used on talk pages, avoiding the potential baggage of implying valid scientific inquiry of a minority perspective is pseudoscience, and vice-vers-a. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorism

I missed the discussion in January and wanted to add an additional view.

Conspiracy theory has a clear meaning in academic literature. It is an alternative explanation of events that involves an all-knowing, all-powerful and totally evil group whose actions are unreported in mainstream sources. Such theories are not falsifiable, because any evidence against them is dismissed as obfuscation by the conspirators. Much of conspiracy theory writing uses dubious or false facts and faulty logic.

As an article in The Conversation says, "Conspiracy theories are deliberately complex and reflect an all-encompassing worldview. Instead of trying to explain one thing, a conspiracy theory tries to explain everything, discovering connections across domains of human interaction that are otherwise hidden – mostly because they do not exist."

9/11 Truth fits all the elements of a conspiracy theory. It claims that the U.S. government murdered 1,000s of its own citizens as a false flag operation to justify the war in Iraq. In order to do that, it would have been able to carry out an elaborate covert action and keep it secret, despite the fact that hundreds or even thousands of people would have been in on the secret. The adherents explain the findings of experts by claiming they are part of the conspiracy.

In my opinion this is similar to the case of terrorism. It is a concept studied by experts and we expect expert opinion before we use the term. We don't expect that a reporter has sufficient expertise.

There is a clear distinction between conspiracy theories and plausible if unlikely alternative explanations which may elude news reporters, although conspiracy theorists may adopt alternative explanations and add in the elements of a conspiracy theory. In fact, Misplaced Pages draws a clear distinction between pseudoscience and alternative explanations in its Fringe theories|.

To use a current example, conspiracy theorists have seized on the Wuhan lab leak theory which fits in with their pre-existing views on Communism, the U.S. government, the globalists, and xenophobia. Yet the WHO and Dr. Fauci see it as a possible if unlikely source that has not been ruled out.

TFD (talk) 23:31, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion about wikipedia "Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans"

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans, which is about a wikipedia that is within the scope of this WikiProject. Bangalamania (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Relationship to MEDRS

It might be useful for WP:PARITY to mention WP:MEDRS. The fact is that editors do not require an "ideal" source to add information about notable quackery. We can say that Chromotherapy is quackery without producing a peer-reviewed review article published within the last five years in a reputable journal; it's enough to produce any reliable source to describe such obvious nonsense. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:58, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Proposed addition: Relationship of WP:FRINGE to other policies and guidelines

Over the past few months, there have been several discussions about instances of WP:FRINGE being misused as a justification to disregard other policies and guidelines. The most important of these was the Skepticism and coordinated editing arbitration case, in which Rp2006 was topic banned from all skepticism related BLPs for (among other things) editing with a conflict of interest, and excessively negative editing of BLP articles about individuals associated with fringe topics. During that case, one of the workshop proposals was for a principle which would have clarified that WP:FRINGE must be used in a way that is consistent with other policies and guidelines, but this principle was not incorporated into the final decision.

In a discussion about this issue at the village pump a few months ago, Masem made an insightful comment about how WP:FRINGE also has been used to circumvent RS policy: While I agree that we should still be relying on quality RSes for discussion of the state of a fringe theory without legitimizing, the issue that has been the core of this entire thread has been about how editors with a strong anti-fringe stance seem to go out of their way to knock any type of legitimacy of sources that would be the appropriate type to use in these cases that happen to give a bit of support or non-stigmatizing coverage of fringe, and then thus claim there's no coverage of the fringe view in RSes and thus no need to cover it - a line of circular logic.

WP:FRINGEBLP already makes it clear that the usage of WP:FRINGE cannot supersede the requirements of BLP policy. I suggest that the WP:FRINGE guideline should contain a similar clarification about its relation to other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines: namely, that WP:FRINGE also cannot supersede the requirements of WP:COI, WP:RS, or WP:V. 2600:1004:B110:A468:C55C:DD85:8E2:95C5 (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense to include something like that. Obviously COI, RS, and V apply everywhere; but the entire point of FRINGE is that it does have some effect on WP:RS / WP:V (hence WP:PARITY, which does unambiguously override the normal requirements of WP:RS in limited and specific circumstances.) The policies are not in competition with each other - WP:FRINGE is a supplement to RS / V and affects the reliability of sources. But more generally the underlying problem is that, aside from very new editors unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's policies, anyone advancing a WP:FRINGE theory is going to believe that WP:RS / WP:V back them up. In a dispute like that it's useless to say "well RS wins", because the underlying dispute is going to focus on how the policies intersect and which is more applicable. And generally I am skeptical of efforts to write policies that are too "hard" (in the sense of "always do X, never do Y, Z always wins") outside of narrow areas like WP:BLP / WP:MEDRS where there is a compelling reason we need to do so or the fundamental definitions of essential core policies. Having a policy that comes down too hard on one side of a dispute discourages discussion and consensus-building, which is bad because the majority of cases are at least somewhat context-sensitive and deserve more discussion than someone just linking a single policy. That is to say - WP:RS / WP:V apply everywhere, yes, but you have to make your specific argument for how and why they apply, which includes considering supplemental policies like WP:FRINGE. --Aquillion (talk) 20:43, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

"WP:FRINGE is a supplement to RS / V and affects the reliability of sources" - I've seen editors routinely make this argument, but as far as I'm aware it has no basis in policy. WP:RS does not mention the viewpoint of a source as a criterion in determining whether or not it is reliable. According to WP:RS reliability is based on more objective criteria such as age, the reputation of the publisher, and what statement it is being cited for. Obviously if a publisher consistently presents fringe theories, its reputation will suffer as a result, but WP:RS requires these types of judgments about a source to be based on the source's reputation, not based on the viewpoint itself.

This argument also fails to address Masem's concern about circular logic. Normally, determinations about whether an idea is or is not fringe would be based on the balance of viewpoints that exists in reliable sources, which are objectively defined by the criteria of WP:RS. But if the reliability of sources is itself based on whether or not they present fringe views, then decisions about whether or not an idea is fringe can become completely disconnected from the source material, and are left to the discretion of Misplaced Pages editors. In other words, this would allow virtually any idea to be classified as fringe, if Misplaced Pages editors want it to be classified that way, and decide that all the sources supporting it are therefore unreliable, even if they satisfy WP:RS in every other respect. 2600:1004:B110:A468:C55C:DD85:8E2:95C5 (talk) 22:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I was the writer of Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_170#Fringe,_Anti-fringe,_and_Turning_Wikipedia's_Values_Upside-down. Agree with the 95C5 IP: WP:FRINGE does not exist to have some effect on how we select reliable sources, but to explain how reliable sources determine what is fringe. We don't edit based off our personal beliefs or some list of acceptable and unacceptable ideas, we edit based on what the sources say. A good essay talking about this issue is User:Apaugasma/No._We_are_not_biased. MarshallKe (talk) 12:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

To the extent that WP:FRINGE is a supplement to another policy, I would say it supplements WP:NPOV more than WP:RS. The point of FRINGE is to explain both when and how we cover fringe views. Blueboar (talk) 12:39, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is definitely the origin of WP:FRINGE -- almost a supplement to WP:WEIGHT. It just so happens that these days WP culture is to argue over reliability rather than neutrality. I appreciate that shift as a rhetorical clarification for how actual editing happens, but it has its limitations just as NPOV does. In particular, evaluating sources is necessarily circular. This isn't just the situation in the context of this guideline, but it perhaps becomes more apparent here since sourcing on fringe articles tends to look a bit different than on mainstream articles. In any case, there isn't a strong argument for replicating the wording of FRINGEBLP to apply to all other PAGs as if this guideline can be ignored if you find some line or interpretation elsewhere that you think supercedes it. The only reason we have a caveat in the FRINGEBLP section is because we have a special obligation to make sure that BLPs as a class of articles are taken care of in a special way. jps (talk) 13:11, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I have no objection in principle to a carefully worded clarification to FRINGE with the object of preventing questionable editing by overly enthusiastic anti-fringe editors. But, I would caution that great care needs to be taken that FRINGE is not materially weakened. There is no shortage of people and groups who have, and continue to aggressively attempt to promote all manner of nuttery in the encyclopedia. PROFRINGE editing is by far a greater problem than the occasionally over-zealous behavior of those attempting to curb these pernicious POV editors. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:37, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I agree with Ad Orientem for the most part. We should clarify FRINGE to prevent abuse, accidental or intentional. Obviously, its all dependent what the proposed changes actually are. Bonewah (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm with Aquillion here in that The policies are not in competition with each other. (I am by default dubious of any proposal that tries to "clarify" proper editing by playing acronyms against one another, as in my experience, these tend either to be bikeshedding or an attempt to push a pet cause by cloaking it in wiki-jargon. I'm not presuming anything about the motives of anyone in this discussion, just saying that for me personally, any such proposal will be an uphill battle.) I also concur with Ad Orientem that PROFRINGE editing is by far a greater problem than the occasionally over-zealous behavior of those attempting to curb these pernicious POV editors (in fact, I would italicize by far). I don't find the argument about "circular reasoning" to be persuasive; to me, it reads as a slippery slope down to a worst-case hypothetical. Moreover, and perhaps I am echoing jps here, one could make the same accusation about editing on any topic. (Nor does it really seem connected with the ArbCom case that prompted this discussion, as that was principally about COI editing, not demarcating fringe from non-fringe or insisting that a particular source must be reliable because it toed some imagined party line about fringe topics.) The problem with trying to tweak the words in any one guideline to prevent abuse is that there's always another guideline, always some other way to wiki-lawyer, always another argument to drag out and delay until the editors standing in your way have had to move on to the next crisis. Words can only do so much when it's people who are the problem. XOR'easter (talk) 20:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've also seen that circle of reasoning run in the other direction, now and then. "The fan wiki for my favorite TV show is exhaustively detailed, and it has a reputation for reliability (among fans — who are the people who'd know best!). Therefore, it should be designated an RS, and omitting the table of the 100 best episodes as ranked in a 1997 poll violates UNDUE." I wouldn't want to modify guidelines in a way that would fuel that kind of argument, either. XOR'easter (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
As I said in my comments on the similar workshop proposal in the Skepticism and coordinated editing case, I agree that something like this is needed. In addition to the discussions linked above by the IP, DGG made a proposal along these lines to Arbcom in October, so he might want to offer an opinion about the current proposal. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:35, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
FRINGE had a purpose 15 years ago, when the encyclopedia was under attack by various esoteric groups intending to turn it to their own purposes, most notably scientology, but also various forms of what no reasonable person could consider objectively valid medicine or science. They have all successively tried to create walled gardens of articles representing their positions on the world, or on the relevant parts of it. This created a serious problem for a nascent encyclopedia, for the intensity and devotion of the adherents was sufficient to sessentially shut out all other contributions in the field. In the extreme of Scientology, their central organization was banned from participation altogether; in the case of most of the others, the increasing number of sensible and intelligent contributors made it possible to keep them in limits. (though there were serious difficulties with some, notably Homeopathy, which was one of the cause of the split with Citizendium, which proposed to treat these on a equal basis with reality.

The world, and our contributors, has changed. The dangerous social movements of our time are not represented significantly in Misplaced Pages, at least the English Misplaced Pages. Our problem now is just the opposite: making sure that the varied world of human opinion, sensible and not, is fully explained and represented.

"Fringe" can mean a great many things--but one of the things it does not mean, and must not be confused, with is a possibly valid testable scientific view, whose conclusions are not accepted because of social or psychological or political reasons. The classic example of this is Mendelian genetics, which was not accepted in the Soviet Union because the implications of it were considered incompatible with the Stalinist concept of Marxism. We should not tink that we here arefree from such implications. We do not judge science by voting, or whetherwe like the conclusions.

I read with utter amazement the view above that we are in danger from the proponents of fringe. What we are in danger from, is those who reject the serious consideration of testable theories because they do not like the implications, or the supporters. A pseudoscientist is someone who pretends to accept the scientific method, but actually conducts their work in such a way as to avoid the usual investigations and proofs. A pseudoscience supporter in Misplaced Pages is someone who rules out sources because they do not like what they say.

Even more generally, the basic rule remains that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. It includes all of human knowledge that can be expressed in the media it uses. It devotes the necessary space to considering them in proportion to the available sources and the amount of space needed to explain. It does not decide if the sources are correct or fair or honest. It summarizes what is written. It can give background: it can provide evidence that very few people believe in something. But it can say nothing in its own voice whatsoever--it has no voice of its own. It is not a textbook. It is not advocacy. It has no doctrine. That something is in the views of 99% of us wrong or perverse or even dangerous it makes no difference whatsoever about how we present it. We are not here to protect the world. We are not even here to educate the world. We are here to present in a free manner the information by which the people in the world can educate themselves.

I should expand in great length, by reviewing our overage of everything controversial. But let me give an illustration. One of my acquaintances here, of politically extremely conservative views, is a historian who has written school textbooks of the history of various midwestern states. I decided to examine his books, to see if his claimed neutrality was real --and let me tell you, I read extremely skeptically indeed. But I could not have told what his politics was, if I had not known previously.

the first step towards of this would be a contents rule, that we never say something is fringe, or false, or true, or controversial.I would not modify the rule: I would remove it. To use a previous example of mine, we don't even call Stalin a tyrant. Reporting what he did will make it clear, and reporting the views of his supporters will make it even clearer. But if any of us say that we know something to be true, or false, or unproven, we can only be asserting either that we are supernaturally inspired, or that there is nobody better informed or more intelligent. We all know what we think today, but we can not tell if we will still think it tomorrow; how can we dare enshrine it as a judgment in a work of reference? DGG ( talk ) 02:07, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

A very odd time to be saying we are not "in danger from the proponents of fringe", in the middle of a very nasty war, arguably driven by fringe historical ideas! Your post seems to deal only with scientific fringe views, which may be better controlled than they were (though I wonder how closely you follow the fringe noticeboard). In areas around history, fringe views seem to be flourishing, and are arguably more dangerous, as we are seeing. I wonder which will end up killing more people, anti-vax nonsense or the war in Ukraine? Johnbod (talk) 14:15, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Please pardon me for inserting something here to keep the sub-thread together. I was indeed talking about science primarily. The part of history that deals with what actually happened is a science because it is testable by observation; the part that deals with motivations is not. Only for the part of social questions that is testable by experiment or observation does the concept of fringe or pseudoscience even make sense; in other areas, our judgements are prejudices, and fringe means no more than "small minority". I cannot prove the principles of human rights, but I believe in them. DGG ( talk ) 02:52, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, DGG, for a thought-provoking post. I will leave the in-depth analysis to the wiser Wikipedians, but I too find the "not in danger" from fringe assertion remarkable. Indeed, I would say the danger is at least as great as it has ever been--though yes, perhaps it is better filtered here than it was fifteen years ago. But there is a bit of this with which I wholeheartedly agree, and that is a general posture of epistemic humility: we don't know what we don't know, and should be mindful of that. But I also don't think that should be an excuse for paralysis. Yes, in a century, many things we think of as unassailably true will be seen as silly, and perhaps some things we think of as "fringe" will be accepted as fact. I don't think that means we need to be less critical or less discerning. My view, at least, is that Misplaced Pages is not a stenographic service that records human knowledge in a sort of great capacious compendium, but rather an interpreter of the emergent quality of human knowledge--though people will always find ways to disagree, as a species, there are some things on which we seem to have settled. The shape of our planet is an easy example. Though there are of course dissenters, I would argue it is within the realm of emergent human knowledge that we live on a sphere (or at least an oblate spheroid). So, again, I think DGG's position is well taken, but for me it goes a step too far. I think we should be mindful of our own limitations, but I don't think we need to surrender to them (with apologies for the martial metaphor). I think it is incumbent upon us to continue monitoring for fringe and labelling some content as such, while trying to retain some of that humility I mentioned. I fully understand that this is an unsatisfying place to land, but for me, it's the worst possible solution except for all of the others. Just some unasked for musings! Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Dumuzid: Indeed, I would say the danger is at least as great as it has ever been--though yes, perhaps it is better filtered here than it was fifteen years ago. Expanding on this, I'd suggest the primary reason such perspectives are well controlled today is because of FRINGE, not a sign that it's no longer necessary. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@DGG: The world, and our contributors, has changed. The dangerous social movements of our time are not represented significantly in Misplaced Pages, at least the English Misplaced Pages. Our problem now is just the opposite: making sure that the varied world of human opinion, sensible and not, is fully explained and represented. This feels wholly at odds with the current state of things, both the world and Misplaced Pages. It may not be Scientology anymore, but now it's Ivermectin and Trump and Russian Disinformation, on top of older topics that never went away like sex/gender and race/intelligence.

the first step towards of this would be a contents rule, that we never say something is fringe, or false, or true, or controversial. Why do we need to nuke FRINGE to 'never say something is false or true'? That's already what FRINGE says: we should put into context with respect to the mainstream perspective. Saying true/false is an issue of application, not of the guideline itself. Same with the potentially loaded word "fringe", particularly in article space.

We all know what we think today, but we can not tell if we will still think it tomorrow; how can we dare enshrine it as a judgment in a work of reference? I strongly disagree with the idea that we shouldn't identify current mainstream and non-mainstream ideas as such, as the alternative would result in a failure to function as an encyclopedia. We should not attempt to preemptively WP:RGW by assuming the currently accepted mainstream view might change in the future. We're a WP:WIP, and it's better for us to err on the side of, for instance, mainstream published meta-analysis scientific consensus, rather than presenting one person's pre-print papers funded by political activists as if they have an equal weight purely on the off-chance that this one person got it right. While they're non-mainstream, we should say so. When they become mainstream, we should say so. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

DGG is making a straw man argument. No one is saying that Misplaced Pages editors should determine what's fringe from their own personal knowledge. What's fringe is determined from what the preponderance of reliable sources say. It occasionally happens that something that's considered fringe at one point in time will become mainstream 15 years later, in which case that will be clear from what reliable sources say, and Misplaced Pages's coverage will no longer treat it as fringe. The current policy on fringe is consistent with all the core policies such as WP:NPOV and WP:V. NightHeron (talk) 14:48, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

"the first step towards of this would be a contents rule, that we never say something is fringe, or false, or true, or controversial."

DGG's suggestion would be a major step in the direction of the death of truth. Misplaced Pages may not be here to WP:RGW, but it still has a reputation as the "good cop of the Internet".

It is false that the Earth is flat. It is false that the Middle Ages never happened and that the historical records of them were forged as part of a conspiracy. It is false that the Apollo moon landings were faked. It is false that Donald Trump won the 2020 U.S. presidential election. It is false that vaccines cause autism. If Misplaced Pages cannot say these things are false, it becomes useless. Gildir (talk) 15:28, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I don’t disagree… However… in a BLP about a Flat Earth advocate (etc) it does not actually matter whether the earth is flat or not. All that really matters (in the context of a BLP) is that the BLP subject advocates for a flat earth (etc).

This is were some of our more zealous “anti-fringe” editors have difficulty maintaining a NPOV. Instead of neutrally describing the fact that the subject holds certain beliefs, they focus on describing how flawed those beliefs are. A BLP isn’t the right place to do that. Blueboar (talk) 16:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

It depends. A BLP of a Young Earth Creationist might well have comments about that person from scientists showing how wrong YEC is. I don't see a problem with that. Doug Weller talk 16:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, and I believe it is important when creating a holistic portrait of a person to point out if they have have strong views or goals that are in tension with society at large, whatever the merit of those views. Sometimes that tension is a key factor in a person's notability. As such, I think we do have to sometimes dwell on "wrongness," or as I would prefer it, "tension," but as ever, reasonable minds may differ. Dumuzid (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it is a matter of how much detail to give. The appropriate place to go into detail about the “wrongness” of a view is in the article about that view (be it Flat earth, or YEC, or anti-vax conspiracy, etc) - NOT the Bio articles of the view’s proponents. Keep the focus of a bio article on the person, not on the view. It is OK for a bio article quickly note that a person’s views are controversial… but we shouldn’t go into the details of why they are controversial in the bio article. That’s what links are for. Blueboar (talk) 17:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You are of course quite right that it's a question of degree and that context is crucial. But sometimes I think we have to limn the controversy to make it clear. I don't believe we should treat "this person thinks the Gospel of Matthew was composed in Aramaic" (a largely rejected but facially plausible theory) and "this person thinks the world is flat and surrounded by an ice wall" the same. I would agree that it's possible to go TOO far into such matters in a BLP, but I think not going into detail about they "whys" of controversy is a move too far in the other direction. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Precisely, there are questions of judgement. What is infuriating (and this is an increasing trend on Misplaced Pages) is the push to treat such questions as something that should be pre-decided by enshrining one-or-other absolute position as "law" by means of a policy change. Alexbrn (talk) 17:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Fringe is still a problem. Current estimates are that 250,000 Americans have died as a result of antivaxx misinformation. Changing the rules so that Misplaced Pages didn't call out fringe-as-fringe would not only be unintelligent, but immoral. Alexbrn (talk) 16:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think anyone objects to calling out fringe as fringe… the question is where to do so. Doing so in an article about the fringe idea is the right venue… doing so in a bio article is the wrong venue. Blueboar (talk) 17:07, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Rubbish. "Bio articles" are about people's lives and deeds (without deeds they would generally be non-notable, except for world's tallest man etc.) If those deeds obtrude into fringe areas and Misplaced Pages airs them it needs to call out the fringe-as-fringe. This is baked into NPOV and is non-negotiable core policy. We don't indifferently write about David Irving's notions about WW2 without pointing the fact that he's a holocaust denier. Alexbrn (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Blueboar: I don’t think anyone objects to calling out fringe as fringe DGG seems to advocate for precisely this in his comment above. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

If those deeds obtrude into fringe areas and Misplaced Pages airs them it needs to call out the fringe-as-fringe. This is baked into NPOV and is non-negotiable core policy. This right here is exactly why we need to clarify FRINGE. FRINGE is not a license to "call out the fringe-as-fringe" anywhere and everywhere nor is it "baked into NPOV" The FRINGE page itself clearly states "(fringe theories) must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea" and that in articles about a fringe theory to maintain "the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be made clear." What it does not say is to go out and shout loudly anywhere and everywhere you can how wrong those theories are. As an example, i give you Nicholas Wade wherein it was argued by multiple editors that Wade's biography must include multiple paragraphs of criticism of his work but not Wade's response to those critics:

here "Wade's reply is WP:UNDUE when weighed against the stated view of over 100 geneticists and biologists. ... "Perhaps I should also have pointed to WP:FRINGE, since one of the things these geneticists are criticizing Wade for is the view that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence." ::::here Using FRINGE to coatrack the biography "Again, i want to emphasize, this is not an article about race and genetics, its an article about Nicholas Wade. Again, I want to emphasize that this argument is a non-sequitur. Our policies on WP:FRINGE and WP:DUE apply to the whole project, just like WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:MPOV do." ::::here "Why on earth would we want to use this BLP as a platform to uncritically present Wade's fringe view that the scientific consensus on race is an anti-evolutionary myth?"

here "Given that A Troublesome Inheritance promotes a fringe view claiming evolutionary genetic effects on differences in IQ and in social/political activities between races and nations -- a view that's rejected by the consensus of geneticists -- it is sufficient that we have the one sentence that's already there quoting a well-known person (Charles Murray) in support of those fringe views."

here "You say this article is not the place to weigh fringe claims against mainstream views, but I am certain that the correct such place is everywhere on Misplaced Pages. There should be no dark corners or walled garden of Misplaced Pages where fringe views are presented uncritically."

I could go on, his talk page archive is full of these.

This isnt about debunking bigfoot or flat earth, its exactly what DGG said What we are in danger from, is those who reject the serious consideration of testable theories because they do not like the implications, or the supporters. Bonewah (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Whether it's Bigfoot, holocaust denial, fake cancer treatments, or some guy's bonkers ideas about lab leaks and race, Misplaced Pages calls out bonkers ideas out as bonkers. Misplaced Pages does not take a stand on fringe topics, for or against; but omits such information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise includes and describes such ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. WP:PROFRINGE editors don't like it, but that is NPOV folks! Alexbrn (talk)

Misplaced Pages calls out bonkers ideas out as bonkers Even if it were possible to reliably separate bonkers ideas from merely unpopular ones, you are still incorrect. Misplaced Pages isnt here to "call out ideas" one way or the other, but to present verifiable information in a neutral fashion. Bonewah (talk) 19:20, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, but, to me, sometimes presenting that information neutrally involves saying that "most people think this idea is bonkers." I think we're all sort of approaching the same idea from several oblique angles. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and "neutral" means fringe idea must always be contextualized by established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. So long as we're doing that, all is good. If this Wade person had fringe ideas, they will be identified as such in his bio precisely because of Misplaced Pages's special commitment to neutrality. WP:PROFRINGE editors would just love it if biographies became a place for a "free hit" of nonsense! Not gonna happen. Alexbrn (talk) 19:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

(EC)I agree, the object is neutrally, not "calling out as bonkers". If saying "most people think this idea is bonkers." is the best way to do that, then we should say that. In my mind an ideal clarification of FRINGE would make clear that FRINGE exists to support Neutrality, not override it. Bonewah (talk) 19:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Neutral in the sense of of "in proportion to prominence in reliable sources", which should mean that bonkers ideas are called out as bonkers when reliable sources are calling them bonkers. With Wade, we had an author who became much more prominent because of his book that promoted fringe views. Editors were adamant that we should extensively quote Wade's response to the hundreds of experts that refuted his views, seeking to present Wade's views in equal proportion with the experts. If FRINGE didn't exist, this suggestion would rightly have been rejected on basic NPOV grounds. I am grateful, though, for the clear guidance of FRINGE. I'm not sure what proponents of the proposed change hope to accomplish with "this guideline must be followed in a way that doesn't conflict with policy", but if the intent is to weaken the project's ability to present content neutrally, then I'm opposed. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 19:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Bonewah's world: "Most people say the Holocaust happened". Yeah, no. See WP:ASSERT for why your idea is a NPOV disaster. Alexbrn (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers, No. In fact, editors were adamant that Wade not be quoted at all while quoting his critics extensively. In Wade's biography. Even when the sources sited quoted Wade's responses in full. Even in spite of clearly stating in unambiguous terms that WP:Neutrality "...means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."(emphasis added). FRINGE does not supersede Neutrality, thats what i would like to accomplish. @Alexbrn, personal attacks so soon? Pace yourself, this could take a while. Bonewah (talk) 19:54, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Interesting you think it a personal attack when faced with the upshot of your approach. If something is wrong, Misplaced Pages say it's wrong; not that "most people think" it's wrong. There are always loonies to push any fringe notion, so it's never unanimous. Alexbrn (talk) 20:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Here's an example diff of what I'm talking about, in which an editor attempts to present Wade's quoted views in equal prominence to that of the experts. FRINGE is helpful in explaining why that's counter to the goals of Misplaced Pages. Many supporters of giving additional weight to Wade's view kept stressing that it's his biography, as you are doing here, which is not a factor in determining due weight. After a flurry of edits removing and restoring the lengthy Wade quote, rather than allow the obviously due expert letter criticism to stand in the article, your suggested compromise was to remove mention of the letter entirely. Overall, the affair is a counterexample to the suggestion above the we find ourselves in a world where Misplaced Pages is not in danger from promotion of fringe views. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 20:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

(EC)Well, i never said that Misplaced Pages should say "most people think" it's wrong or anything like that. Just like i never said "Most people say the Holocaust happened". And, yes, likening someone's views to holocaust denial is generally considered a personal attack, especially when the stated view was as unremarkable as Neutrality > Fringe. Bonewah (talk) 20:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You said it's not Misplaced Pages's job call out bonkers ideas. But just to be clear, you'd agree that Misplaced Pages should call David Irving's various pronouncements about the Holocaust wrong//dishonest (as RS says). Yes? Alexbrn (talk) 20:23, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

In addition to my comments that a BLP is not the right venue to go into details in an attempt to rebut the subject’s fringe views, I will also say that a BLP is not the right venue to go into the details of the subjects’s views. A BLP should summarize the views… and link to other articles where we go into the details.

To give an imaginary example: if Ima Nutter is notable for advocating that the moon is made of cheese, then we can summarize that advocacy with:

“Nutter is a leading proponent of Lunar fromageology (the fringe theory that the moon is made of cheese). He differs from other lunar fromageology advocates in that he believes that the moon is primarily made of Cheddar cheese while most believe that it is made of Limburger. He has authored two books on the subject - “Cheesemakers of the Gods” and “The Cosmic Whey”.”

Note that my example does identify “Lunar fromageology” as a fringe belief… but only IN PASSING. There is no need for the BLP about Nutter to include a point by point refutation of Nutters’s advocacy of Lunar fromageology… because that should all be done at the linked Lunar fromageology article. All the Nutter BLP really needs to do is identify that Nutter is an advocate of it, and summarize how his brand of advocacy differs from other advocates. The focus of the BLP should be on Nutter and not on “fromageology”. Blueboar (talk) 20:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I think a lot of editors don't understand the biographies are composite articles per WP:NOPAGE, typically a composite of "The Life of X" and "The works of X" (for major figures, we actually split these articles). Both aspects get treated in the one page. What the WP:PROFRINGE editors argue are that bios are some kind of "life only" sacrosanct spaces where the subject's works cannot be submitted to proper NPOV scrutiny. They're wrong. Alexbrn (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

(EC)As i said here my compromise, or, at least, my attempt at a compromise was to delete information i viewed as mostly useless. I stand by that. The object is to write a clear, verifiable and neutral encyclopedia, if calling someone's views as wrong or dishonest does that, then thats what we should do. If not, then we shouldnt. The "calling out" (or not) is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Same is true of David Irving or anyone else. Bonewah (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I dont know who you think are the 'WP:PROFRINGE editors' that you keep mentioning, but I think that biographies should be biographical. They should be about the person, just as articles on planets should be about planets and articles about butterflies should be about butterflies. Blueboar has it about right, you can say something if fringe, in my opinion, or say something that implies that, but only in service of accurately and neutrally covering the subject. Bonewah (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You're wrong. Biographies are not narrowly "about the person", but about the person and what they've done. In fact, they're often much more about what the person's done than their "life". Have you ever read a biography? Alexbrn (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

We are not writing a full length biography… but an encyclopedia article which is biographical in nature. The key to that is summarization. And summarization often means we omit details. Blueboar (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Have you ever consulted biographies from, say, Encyclopædia Britannica? TrangaBellam (talk) 05:52, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I definitely concur with Alexbrn here. Very often, the only reason a biography exists is because of what the person has done. There's no natural separation between "life" and actions. XOR'easter (talk) 05:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Of course fringe advocates would like Misplaced Pages to present a false balance. I'm sorry to have to say it as it is. But that's also against WP:NPOV's WP:GEVAL policy, not only WP:FRINGE. As for common arguments that since science must reflect knowledge its positions may eventually change, it's true in relation to its method, yet in many cases that's unlikely, precisely because of the strength of the evidence and the working practical theories. For instance, we can expect better unifying physics theories in the future, but it's unlikely that suddenly quantum mysticism will be validated and that Newton mechanics or special relativity will become useless. We can expect more advanced knowledge about how organisms evolve, but little contradicting the fact that they do, or suddenly validating discredited pseudoscientific racialist theories. Extraordinary evidence is needed to validate extraordinary claims. In the case of Misplaced Pages, this means enough independent reliable sources prominently supporting a position and acknowledging the best/most accepted explanations for data. FRINGE isn't there for nothing, but because Misplaced Pages is a common target for propaganda, especially to push material that would be rejected by reputable, relevant, scientific journals. —PaleoNeonate – 06:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. I'm slow on the uptake but I've only just realized this is all yet another shadow play about the R&I stuff. It's funny how the pro-racist WP:PROFRINGErs think they're attacking FRINGE (a mild guideline) when the real teeth are in NPOV (core policy) that they're upset about. Misplaced Pages is not going to air racist bollocks, quackery, pseudohistory or conspiracy theories without applying the brand of reality from reliable sources. And "biographies" are not a safe space for suspending this inviolable principle. Sorry. Alexbrn (talk) 07:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  You're probably right about this being aimed mainly at R&I. Evidently started by someone involved. The poster who pinged DGG had a topic ban from the area in the past but successfully appealed it. I have no idea what DGG's views are about R&I but it's certainly in the science area, which DGG has said is his main concern. Doug Weller talk 10:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  For those who didn't see my comment on FTN: The IP user who started this thread is not just involved but topic banned from R&I, and would have been indef blocked for meatpuppetry if not for concerns about collateral damage. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Gardenofaleph/Archive if you're curious. Though the IP user bends over backward not to mention it, DGG's recent amendment request from ArbCom (), which was about R&I, is clearly an important piece of background here. Generalrelative (talk) 14:25, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  As User:NightHeron and User:Generalrelative have pointed out, it seems likely that the OP here is related to User:Gardenofaleph, who has earlier circumvented race-related topic bans. As in previous RfCs that have attempted to overturn WP:consensus, R&I now has the standard set of WP:DSs, even if rarely applied. It's not clear that there's been a paradigm shift as DGG seems to suggest. What is true, is that users have moved on: for example the two cultural anthropologists Slrubenstein died in 2012 and maunus has become active elsewhere; both were at one stage administrators. Other editors have subsequently appeared to continue that tradition, in different but related academic areas; they have been more involved in the humanities than the sciences. Mathsci (talk) 16:52, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  - I cant speak for anyone else but, assuming R&I means race and intelligence, then, no it absolutely is not about that. I brought up Nicholas Wade, and, indeed, argued on his page for the same reason the ACLU defended the Illinois Nazis, because principles only matter if you stand up for them when its hard. No one needs to defend elm trees from POV pushing, its not going to happen and if it does, it would be easy to bat down. What is going to happen, and does happen all the time is POV pushing around shitty people like Nicholas Wade or David Irving or Donald Trump and if we dont stand up and say "no, we are still going to write articles about these subjects in a neutral fashion no matter what awful things the subject has said" then the whole concept of a neutral encyclopedia goes down the drain. Ironically, i avoided the other Nicholas Wade lightning rod, origins of Covid-19, precisely because i wanted to avoid the whole "this is another shadow play about the lab leak stuff" argument, stupidly not realizing that the only thing more contentious, the only thing more capable of making people lose their minds and abandon their principles is race and intelligence. So sorry about that, next time ill choose something less divisive like abortion. But I stand by what i said. FRINGE is not your POV pushing super weapon, its not an excuse to ignore NPOV or plaster wikipedia everywhere with stuff about how super sure everyone is that Ivermectin doesnt cure covid or whatever and it doesnt apply any time you would like to shout someone down. Alexbrn was right about one thing, the real teeth are in NPOV, and as far as im concerned, we aught to copy this line and put it at the top of FRINGE "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" and be done with it. I have no delusion that this will stop the ever-present POV pushing because nothing will, but at least we, as a community, will have said that Neutrality is more important to us than fighting fringe views, no matter how awful or destructive we think they are. Bonewah (talk) 15:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
    You're cherry-picking NPOV. The bits which are particularly pertinent to fringe content are WP:PSCI and WP:GEVAL. The WP:FRINGE guidance is pretty much a long-winded expansion of the principles in these core sections. Alexbrn (talk) 15:21, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
    - So do you think the portion of NPOV i quoted does not apply to fringe related topics? Bonewah (talk) 15:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
      In part. The extended considerations for fringe content are in WP:GEVAL, which is why it starts: "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity". Alexbrn (talk) 15:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Bonewah: I agree with Alexbrn. The issue being discussed is not whether we mention Wade's viewpoint at all. It's whether giving Wade final say on disputed topics violates WP:GEVAL: include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world (emphasis added). Bakkster Man (talk) 15:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Wade is incidental. The issue, to me, anyway, is what policies are relevant to fringe cases. In my opinion WP:PSCI,WP:GEVAL and WP:FRINGE all apply, but so does WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. When i read "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity" my understanding is do both the first part and the second part of the sentence. You guys seem to operate as if the 'while' means 'ignore the first part'. Just like when i read WP:GEVAL i think 'do this and WP:NPOV' rather than 'do this instead of WP:NPOV. Bonewah (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
You need to read it all (seriously, you need to actually read NPOV). GEVAL (which is part of NPOV) continues thusly:
We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.
In other words, fringe material is only included when contextualized properly: fringe-as-fringe. Alexbrn (talk) 16:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I seriously have read NPOV and i agree with the sentence you quoted. But again, all of it, not just the parts that i choose. Like "We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers" for instance. Or "omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it"(emphasis mine). That does not mean exclude everywhere, and it does not mean run all over wikipedia inserting sentences like "THIS GUY IS TOTALLY WRONG AND FRINGE AND NO ONE BELIVES THIS EXCEPT EVIL PEOPLE!". Im not saying you cant contextualize fringe as fringe, im saying that urge mustnt override everything else. Bonewah (talk) 17:27, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
"THIS GUY IS TOTALLY WRONG AND FRINGE AND NO ONE BELIVES THIS EXCEPT EVIL PEOPLE!" I'd agree Misplaced Pages should not say that. You have achieved victory. Shall we close this thread now? Alexbrn (talk) 17:29, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you make my point better than i can, so we can be done if you like, but there are more participants than just you and I, so, no dont arbitrarily close the thread just because you are done with it. Bonewah (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Bonewah: The point of this discussion was that the WP:FRINGE guideline ought to be updated to clarify that it can't supersede other policies such as WP:COI, WP:V, WP:RS, or WP:NPOV. I still think it would be best if that could be done. Otherwise, whatever agreement we reach here will just be forgotten when this discussion gets buried in the page archives.

At some point, someone ought to propose a specific modification to the guideline, but I'm not clear on whether we're ready for that yet. Nobody seems to really disagree with the statement that WP:FRINGE can't supersede these other policies, but because of how this discussion has gotten sidetracked by discussing specific topics (as opposed to general matters of policy), I can't tell whether it's approaching a consensus. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2022 (UTC)