This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tirronan (talk | contribs) at 04:46, 24 March 2022 (→Armor-piercing ammunition). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 04:46, 24 March 2022 by Tirronan (talk | contribs) (→Armor-piercing ammunition)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| Main page | Discussion | News & open tasks | Academy | Assessment | A-Class review | Contest | Awards | Members |
Merge discussion for 12th Indiana
An editor has requested for 12th Indiana Infantry Regiment (3 years) to be merged into 12th Indiana Infantry Regiment. Since you had some involvement with 12th Indiana Infantry Regiment (3 years) or 12th Indiana Infantry Regiment, you might want to participate in the merger discussion (if you have not already done so).
Warning of doxxing of Misplaced Pages editors seen as opposing the Russian invasion of Ukraine
Editors working on topics relating to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine should read this post by Maggie Dennis, the Wikimedia Foundation's Vice President of Community Resilience & Sustainability. It discusses "an effort ... being made to identify Misplaced Pages editors whose activities are seen as opposing the Russian narrative of the war". See also WP:AN#Arrest of a Wikipedian in Belarus. Nick-D (talk) 10:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Evidence? Keith-264 (talk) 11:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Here. Doxxing was done on Telegram. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Mark Bernshtein, Wiki-activist, was detained in Minsk. He is accused of the "spread of anti-Russian materials". We discussed this here Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Ruwiki user arrested for editing the article in Russian. K8M8S8 (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages's coverage should be neutral and not pro to either side, not simply non-pro Ukrainian / anti-Russian. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:51, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- That's not how WP:NPOV works. Neutral is "neutral according to the best sources". RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:27, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Fine, I gave a simple explanation, not implied anything counter to WP:NPOV. Regards, -Fnlayson (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- The issue is that editors are being targeted/at real risk of being targeted for posting material that runs counter to Russian propaganda. Nick-D (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Understood, though I did not comment on it. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:24, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Russian law punishes anyone who calls the war anything other than a "special operation" and spreads "misinformation" about the topic with up to 15 years in prison. In the past people have ended up in prison for far less (posting memes).--Catlemur (talk) 23:29, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
Comment - the article has an edit notice. Would it be beneficial to extend the edit notice to state that editors in Russia need to edit with extreme caution, due to the penalties that could be imposed? Mjroots (talk) 17:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Yes or a general note about neutral editing per WP:NPOV, and other polices.(Nevermind, this is not relevant to real question.) -Fnlayson (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2022 (UTC)- Well, if you can come up with suitable wording, I or another admin can amend the edit notice. Would suggest that the Russian flag is prominently displayed with the text. We shouldn't need to remind editors of NPOV in the edit notice. This needs to be aimed at making editors in Russia aware of the potential consequenses if they do decide to edit the article. Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- The hazards of public speech are not specific to a particular article or topic, nor just to one country. I would not take it upon myself to point out that something in particular is unsafe, lest someone infer something else is safer, and suffer for it given the arbitrariness with which oppressive laws can be applied. I’m afraid it’s mainly up to editors to understand their own risks. (But does Wikimedia or en.wiki have any guidelines or advice for them?) —Michael Z. 18:50, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, if you can come up with suitable wording, I or another admin can amend the edit notice. Would suggest that the Russian flag is prominently displayed with the text. We shouldn't need to remind editors of NPOV in the edit notice. This needs to be aimed at making editors in Russia aware of the potential consequenses if they do decide to edit the article. Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Proposed splitting the article "Military academies in Russia"
I suggest to split the article "Military academies in Russia". The detailed description is here Talk:Military academies in Russia#Proposed splitting article into three separate articles. K8M8S8 (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to make a point about the discussion Talk:Military academies in Russia#Proposed splitting article into four separate articles. I've just prepared the texts of proposed future articles. I don't know how to make a splitting, so maybe will someone help with this? The texts of the articles is shown below
The article Military-focused secondary schools in Russia
Russian military-focused secondary schools are usual secondary schools conducting secondary general education programme (level 3 according ISCED) and providing their pupils with training in additional military-focused subjects. These schools don't prepare military personnel, and their graduates can choose either military or civilian way of life.
The section List of Russian military-focused secondary schools
Presidential Cadet Schools:
- Kemerovo Presidential Cadet School
- Krasnodar Presidential Cadet School
- Kyzyl Presidential Cadet School
- Orenburg Presidential Cadet School
- Petrozavodsk Presidential Cadet School
- Stavropol Presidential Cadet School
- Tyumen Presidential Cadet School
Cadet Corps Schools:
- Aksay Cossack Cadet Corps named after Danila Efremov
- Kronstadt Sea Cadet Corps
- Omsk Cadet Corps
- Saint Petersburg Cadet Corps
- Cadet Corps (Engineering School) within Zhukovsky – Gagarin Air Force Academy
- Cadet Corps (Sport School) within Military Institute of Physical Culture
- Cadet Corps of IT-technologies within Budyonny Military Academy of the Signal Corps
- Moscow female finishing school of the Ministry of Defence of Russian Federation
- Saint Petersburg female finishing school of the Ministry of Defence of Russian Federation
Suvorov Schools:
- Kazan Suvorov Military School
- Moscow Military Music College
- Moscow Suvorov Military School
- North Caucasus Suvorov Military School
- Perm Suvorov Military School
- Saint Petersburg Suvorov Military School
- Tula Suvorov Military School
- Tver Suvorov Military School
- Ulyanovsk Suvorov Military School
- Ussuriysk Suvorov Military School
- Yekaterinburg Suvorov Military School
Nakhimov Schools:
- Nakhimov Naval School (main campus is located in Saint Petersburg, there are branches in Vladivostok, Sevastopol, Kaliningrad, Murmansk)
The section External links
List of Russian military-focused secondary schools
The article Military warrant officer schools in Russia
The military warrant officer schools are educational institutions conducting the training career warrant officer programmes. Education acquired at such schools is vocational military education (level 4 according ISCED). The duration of studies is 2 years and 6-10 months. Graduates of these schools are assigned the military rank of praporshchik/michman.
At the moment, there are no separate warrant officer schools in Russia. The training warrant officer programmes are conducted by military educational institutions which also offer commissioning programmes.
The section List of Russian military educational institutions conducting training warrant officer programmes
- A.F. Mozhaysky Military-Space Academy
- Budyonny Military Academy of the Signal Corps
- Far Eastern Higher Combined Arms Command School
- Krasnodar Higher Military School named after army general S.M. Shtemenko
- Kuznetsov Naval Academy
- Mikhailovskaya Military Artillery Academy
- Military Academy of Field Anti-Aircraft Defense
- Military Institute of Physical Culture
- Military Logistics Academy
- Military University of Radioelectronics
- Nakhimov Higher Naval School
- NBC Protection Military Academy
- Pacific Higher Naval School
- Ryazan Guards Higher Airborne Command School
- Tyumen Higher Military Engineer Command School named after A.I. Proshlyakov
The section External links
List of Russian military educational institutions
The article Military commissioning schools in Russia
The military commissioning schools are educational institutions conducting the training career commissioned officer programmes. Education acquired at such schools is higher military education (level 6 according ISCED). These programmes are named specialitet (Template:Lang-ru) and take 5 years. Graduates of commissioning schools are assigned the military rank of lieutenant.
The commissioning schools are the first (tactical) level of officer training. Their graduates are appointed as platoon/company commanders and at equivalent positions. After several years of active duty service they can entry military post-commissioning schools for further education.
At the moment, some commissioning schools also conduct warrant officer programmes.
The section List of Russian military educational institutions conducting training commissioning officer programmes
- A.F. Mozhaysky Military-Space Academy
- Budyonny Military Academy of the Signal Corps
- Far Eastern Higher Combined Arms Command School
- Kazan Higher Tank Command School
- Krasnodar Higher Military School named after army general S.M. Shtemenko
- Krasnodar Higher Military Aviation School of Pilots
- Kuznetsov Naval Academy
- Mikhailovskaya Military Artillery Academy
- Military Academy of Field Anti-Aircraft Defense
- Military Institute of Physical Culture
- Military Logistics Academy
- Military University of Radioelectronics
- Military University of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
- Moscow Higher Military Command School
- Nakhimov Higher Naval School
- NBC Protection Military Academy
- Novosibirsk Higher Military Command School
- Pacific Higher Naval School
- Peter the Great Military Academy of the Strategic Missile Forces
- Ryazan Guards Higher Airborne Command School
- S. M. Kirov Military Medical Academy
- Tyumen Higher Military Engineering Command School named after A.I. Proshlyakov
- Yaroslavl Higher Military School of Anti-Aircraft Warfare
- Zhukov Air and Space Defence Academy
- Zhukovsky – Gagarin Air Force Academy
The section External links
List of Russian military educational institutions
The article Military post-commissioning schools in Russia
The military post-commissioning schools are educational institutions conducting the advance training career commissioned officer programmes. These programmes improve the military occupational specialty knowledge of commissioned officers. These programmes are named magistratura (Template:Lang-ru) and take 2 years. Officer wishing to join the program shall comply with the entry requirements illustrated below
| Reached educational level | Years of active duty service as commissioned officer | Military rank (no lower than) | Military position (years of experience) |
Expected number of years of active duty service after graduation until general upper age limit for tenure |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Military school or Military training center (tactical level) |
no less than 7 years | captain/captain lieutenant | Major/Captain 3rd rank's positions (1 year at least) |
5 years at least |
The military post-commissioning schools are the second (operational-tactical) level of officer training. Their graduates can be appointed to battalion/regiment/brigade commander or equivalent positions.
At the moment, some post-commissioning schools also conduct the training warrant officer and commissioned officer programmes.
A special case is Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia which is the third (strategic) level of officer training. This academy prepares highest ranking military officers. The educational programme at Military Academy of the General Staff takes 2 years. Officer wishing to join the program shall comply with the entry requirements illustrated below
| Reached educational level | Years of active duty service as commissioned officer | Military rank (no lower than) | Military position (years of experience) |
Expected number of years of active duty service after graduation until general upper age limit for tenure |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Military academy (operational-tactical level) |
- | Major/Captain 3rd rank | Colonel/Captain 1st rank's positions (1 year at least) |
5 years at least |
The section List of Russian military educational institutions conducting training post-commissioning officer programmes
- A.F. Mozhaysky Military-Space Academy
- Budyonny Military Academy of the Signal Corps
- Combined Arms Academy of the Ground Forces
- Krasnodar Higher Military School named after army general S.M. Shtemenko
- Kuznetsov Naval Academy
- Mikhailovskaya Military Artillery Academy
- Military Academy of Field Anti-Aircraft Defense
- Military Logistics Academy
- Military University of Radioelectronics
- NBC Protection Military Academy
- Peter the Great Military Academy of the Strategic Missile Forces
- S. M. Kirov Military Medical Academy
- Zhukov Air and Space Defence Academy
- Zhukovsky – Gagarin Air Force Academy
The section External links
List of Russian military educational institutions
References
- ^ Об утверждении Порядка и условий приёма в образовательные организации высшего образования, находящиеся в ведении Министерства обороны Российской Федерации (Order 185) (in Russian). Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation. 7 April 2015.
K8M8S8 (talk) 12:56, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
Armor-piercing ammunition
This article is a train wreck. There are almost zero citations, numerous errors, half facts, and other fun and exciting prizes. It might be best to put it on a speedy delete list. Failing that, perhaps we can put a team together to overhaul the article. I might also suggest merging this into another article. Tirronan (talk) 01:51, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Tirronan: what page would you suggest merging Armor-piercing ammunition into? Also, have you considered making any improvements to the page yourself? You suggested you would do just that back in 2019 on the article talk. Your comments also indicate you may have some subject-matter expertise on this topic, along with access to relevant reliable sources, so any changes you make would likely be a good way to get the ball rolling towards improvement. (jmho) Cheers - wolf 17:51, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- I do in fact know something about it. Mind you that a real expert is going to be found at the Yuma testing range or the Aberdeen facility. I'd prefer that someone collaborate with me to help with some of the research if that is possible. Otherwise, I am coming across as a solo effort.Tirronan (talk) 06:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Tirronan: It's usually (but not always) nice to have help, but if you have an interest in improving an article, don't let appearances get in the way. If no one steps up to offer assistance, feel free to work on the article anyway.
The only thing that really matters is that changes to content are an imrpovement, that they are properly sourced, and that they don't otherwise violate any wiki-rules, eg: copyright, etc. Cheers - wolf 19:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Aye then. Tirronan (talk) 04:46, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Tirronan: It's usually (but not always) nice to have help, but if you have an interest in improving an article, don't let appearances get in the way. If no one steps up to offer assistance, feel free to work on the article anyway.
- I do in fact know something about it. Mind you that a real expert is going to be found at the Yuma testing range or the Aberdeen facility. I'd prefer that someone collaborate with me to help with some of the research if that is possible. Otherwise, I am coming across as a solo effort.Tirronan (talk) 06:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Erich Hartmann
A new editor @RossiLeone: is making good faith edits which are not very helpful. I want to avoid a WP:3RR situation. Please assist MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- sorted out now, no action required MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Help needed at CCI
The following Contributor copyright investigation case - Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/DeltaSquad833 has recently been opened which is relevant to this Wikiproject. The editor in question (who has since been blocked) has created large numbers of articles about warships, and the more hands to help the better.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Project Scope
I've seen a few articles covering historical military figures with debated existence listed as part of this project, and I'm curious if they fall under the scope of this project. ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 21:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Military figures fall within the scope of the project. Whether they deserve an article or not depends on whether or not that they have significant coverage in reliable sources (WP:GNG). It is possible for a figure whose existent is contested (eg. King Arthur) to warrant an article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Emphasis on military figure. They fall under the project if their involvement in military matters contributed towards their notability or was a significant part of their life. Merely being a veteran, for example, doesn't make someone fall under milhist. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:05, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Additional standard terms for parameter result in infobox Military conflict
In the Battle of Berezina the result within Infobox Military conflict says: "Inconclusive (See the Aftermath Section)". The Aftermath section says: "Napoleon was in a position to claim a strategic victory." Strategic victory says: "A strategic victory is a victory that brings long-term advantage to the victor and disturbs the enemy's ability to wage a war." The Documentation of Infobox Military conflict says: "Result: The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict" and "Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much."
All this shows that the term "victory" as a result does not help in complex campaigns. I suggest adding to the documentation of Infobox military conflict for the parameter Result three new terms: "X advance", "X retreat" and "X standstill". The outcome of the Battle of Berezina will be:
French retreat
Russian advance.
The outcome of the even more complex Battle of Maloyaroslavets will be instead of "See Aftermath":
French standstill
Russian retreat.
Ruedi33a (talk) 17:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- There are some battles and even wars that have the same issue. Jutland quickly comes to mind. As does The War of 1812. Berezina and come to think on it The Battle of Wavre are particularly thorny. Oh, and we have the Battle of Borodino as well. We need a process that is different from the way that is not working right now. Really complex battles and wars don't always fit our way of doing things. It ends up with endless squabbling without real answers. I'm going to suggest that such articles be worked over by designated teams and locked.Tirronan (talk) 06:56, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- No, never, this is a recipie for endless hair splitting, see aftermath is a far better way of dealing with the subtleties, the solution is to write a better aftermath section. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. If the result is sufficiently complex that neither side can be unambiguously called a "victor" then the solution is not to cram more and more information into an infobox but to omit the argument or, as an alternative, to refer to a section of the prose that describes the outcome. As per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:
he purpose of an infobox to summarize key facts that appear in the article The less information contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.
Adding additional qualifiers would also result in a bunch of (in my view rather pointless) infighting regarding which qualifier to use for any specific battle where a few sources describe it as a "pyrrhic victory for A", others call it a "tactical victory for A", a few more use "strategic victory for B" and the rest do not use any specific modifiers. Ljleppan (talk) 07:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC) - Agree per Keith-264 and Ljleppan. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:35, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Strong agreement here as well. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 10:54, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, point closed. I will look into the aftermath section. Ruedi33a (talk) 16:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC) @A. C. Santacruz:
- Agreed. If the result is sufficiently complex that neither side can be unambiguously called a "victor" then the solution is not to cram more and more information into an infobox but to omit the argument or, as an alternative, to refer to a section of the prose that describes the outcome. As per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:
- No, never, this is a recipie for endless hair splitting, see aftermath is a far better way of dealing with the subtleties, the solution is to write a better aftermath section. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
1975 RAAF aircraft hijacking
I've opened a discussion about the possibility of creating an article on the hijacking of a RAAF aircraft in 1975. Discussion at WT:AV#RAAF aircraft hijacking. Mjroots (talk) 09:34, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
Citations button question
The citations button in the edit page has disappeared and I can't find it in the preferences page. I had a look in preferences and changed a couple of things before noticing that it had gone but nothing that was connected. Can anyone shed light on this pls? Thanks Keith-264 (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Keith-264: Just an fyi, but the cite button is still present in my edit window. Have you considered restoring your preferences to default? Cheers - wolf 18:04, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think I'd better continue with trial and error. ;O) Keith-264 (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
18th-century Spain in infoboxes
Hi all, just wanted to leave a courtesy notification that I changed a few links in conflict infoboxes for 18th-century Spain from Enlightenment in Spain to History of Spain (1700–1810), but I don't know how widespread this practice was, and only looked at the members of Category:Naval battles of the American Revolutionary War involving Spain. Some of those linked to Bourbon Spain, which redirects to the 1700–1810 article. I thought it was strange that we'd link to an article about intellectual and scientific development—even if it's a common way of referring to that time period—in a historical or military context. A clue was that some of these infoboxes had linked to Enlightenment Spain (not in Spain), which better captures the meaning of "Enlightenment-era Spain".
Given the inconsistency I came across, I didn't think I was going against any solid consensus, but just in case. Beyond that one category, I'm not sure what the linking looks like. Feel free to ping me if needed. --BDD (talk) 16:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
FAR for Tiridates I of Armenia
I have nominated Tiridates I of Armenia for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 17:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Category: