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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was not a single delete vote, and AFD is not requests for moves, so article kept by default. Johnleemk | Talk 12:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Islamofascism (term)

POV entry to make a point on a subject which has already been dealt with in various guises, in particlular in the NPOV titled Neofascism and religion. -- Irishpunktom\ 14:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The previous AfD is at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islamofascism. SlimVirgin 15:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I am? Hmmm. Please keep me apprised of any other opinions I develop. Babajobu 18:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Members of the SIIEG Guild are among the most noteworthy POV pushers on Misplaced Pages--JuanMuslim 00:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Please read WP:NPA, JuanMuslim. -- Karl Meier 13:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
We have all read that, but that doesn't completely stop anyone. Please request those who push similar POV to read WP:NPA. We may all learn a little by rereading the article as well. --JuanMuslim 21:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Bigotry, Hate speech, and Systemic bias are all things that aren't too good. However, being that Islamofascism is a word that is widely used today, my position on this article is that it should be kept and we should discuss exactly who uses the term, why they use the term and when the term is used.
I appreciate that you know I don't support the use of such a term. However, imagine you are an ordinary Australian who knows nothing about Islam and all of a sudden you are confronted with such a term in The Daily Telegraph. You think to yourself, "I wonder what this is all about?". The average Australian would normally go to Google and do a search on it.
What do you want them to find? A conservative blogger who pushes their illegitimate POV in a convincing way (and doesn't point out the counter argument for why it isn't a valid term), or the piece on Misplaced Pages that details, in a neutral fashion, all sides of the argument?
Ta bu shi da yu 03:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
What makes a conservative blogger's POV illegitimate? I think we really need a CSB project on countering systemic leftist bias at wikipedia. Klonimus 04:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I should explain that my own POV is leaking into this comment. My main points hold: we should have an article that counters the bias of the for and against crowd of this term. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Systemic bias? That's a new one. What makes it systemic? That word implies that not only are there lots of lefties on WP, but that there will always be lots of lefties, and that leads us to ask why that should be. Because people educated enough to use computers are generally left-wing? If you were thinking of another explanation, please offer it. Who wants a hot water bottle? --Last Malthusian 09:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: Obviously grasping at straws here, but maybe lefties are generally unemployed, perhaps because of the evils of capitalism or systemic oppression from The Man. They thus might have more free time, when not fighting for Mundialization, to contribute to wikipedia. -- JJay 17:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment Good save! --Last Malthusian 14:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope this is better --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 04:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep per Fredwlerr, and move back to Islamofascism -- what the blazes does _(term) add to the title, anyway?! And per SlimVirgin, Islamofascism already survived a VfD earlier this year. <>< tbc 05:38, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep -- The term is in current use, is notable, and should be presented and explained. Neofascism and religion is too long already. Tom Harrison 16:57, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per Klonimus and Capitalistroadster. CanadianCaesar 19:44, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep per Tom Harrison. People who have never heard the term need a NPOV take on what it means, not buried in some other article like neofascism and religion which, I would add, is a prime candidate for AfD itself. It reads like a "D" term paper handed in by a bright but very lazy student who did not do the required reading. IronDuke 20:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep and please move back to islamofascism. Yuckfoo 23:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep per Tom Harrison. --Quasipalm 00:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Merge and Redirect Marzyeh 05:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep, and move back to Islamofascism, no need to have the article under "(term)" when there is only one use for the word. There are only a few editors who seem to want this article to disappear, mostly those from the Mutaween-like "WikiProject_Islam:The_Muslim_Guild": This article already survived a VFD under "Islamofascism", it has been moved to term to create an excuse for another Vfd. See Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Islamofascism. --Chaosfeary 14:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • keep as an article about the term only, putting all info about the phenomenon the term describes at Neofascism and religion Dsol 14:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Neofascism and religion. Yuber 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per Babajobu and others. Briangotts 17:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep and move back to Islamofascism. Preaky 07:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete any Blog content that happens in there, Keep everything else, (also Keep Zionazism per section 6 once it's not a redlink), but Expand the criticisms section. Dubya must have heard that this term had been deleted from WP, so he figured he needed to lend this neologism some notability ;-)karmafist 15:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Neofascism and religion. El_C 15:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep and move to Islamofascism. This information should be included and there isn't a suitable article to merge into. Neofascism and religion is already too large. This term is obviously controverisal and offensive, but that's not a reason for deletion. Carbonite | Talk 16:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - Rangerdude 01:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep...not because I believe Islam is inherently fascist (despite my several objections to Islam), but because the term "Islamofascism" has gained rather widespread currency (for reasons that should be and are covered in the article)... I appreciate that the continued nominations for deletion of this article are brought by muslims who feel insulted by the expansiveness of the article, but I am bound by WP policies regarding notability, to vote to retain the article, keeping in mind that its existence is due to the extensive amount of usage of the term which led to its initial spinning off from list of political epithets (which were beginning to inappropriately imbalance that article)... Wishing a phenomenon would go away by repetitively requesting deletion of the article addressing it on Misplaced Pages is counterproductive (and I think I speak for the vast majority here)...what Muslim Wikipedians and their fellow coreligionists who object to the term and its incumbent castigation of Islam should instead be working on, is cleaning up the well-sourced shortcomings of the Muslim community in addressing and fighting the phenomena the term circumscribes. You don't like the fact that people distrust and mistrust Islam and Muslims? Great. I have no fight with you. Don't cry "foul" tho, just because you disagree with the people against whom the charges are levied. Instead, do something to build up confidence in those who see an enemy in Islam. Don't piss and moan about "anti-Islam" sentiment, when you do nothing to fight against the stupidity carried out in the name of what you believe is a great religion. If you expect people to accord your position any respect, stand up for what you believe are the GOOD points of your religion, instead of fighting blindly against anyone who dares to malign it based on the manifold shortcomings of so many of its claimed adherents. That is all. Tomer 10:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Why is Islamo-fascism still protected and edit-locked to the version last by User:Yuber and not redirecting to here..?

Seems like an attempt to ignore this Vfd and redirect the article to his preferred one (as per the "delete"/"merge" votes)...

This article, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber, contains many criticisms of Yuber's "vicious POV pushing", intentionally starting edit wars, removing sourced material he dislikes, claiming consensus when there is none, harassing users, sockpuppeting and so on...
--Chaosfeary 21:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

comment American fascism 78 000 hits, enough to make a article about it. --Striver 20:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Lol! There already was one! --Striver 20:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

christian fascism 22,900 hits. --Striver 20:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

'For the record Christian fascism and Judeofascism both redirect to Neofascism and religion. BrandonYusufToropov 21:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Oddly, since I posted the above, Judeofascism has since been changed to a nonexistent concept. Down the memory hole it goes, an impermissible idea exiled from the Newspeak vocabulary. "Oceania is at war with Eastasia ... Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.... "BrandonYusufToropov 17:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
'For the recordI created the page Neofascism and religion to provide a way for these types of terms to be discussed in a context that lowered the heat on the editing flame wars. There is no reason an encyclopedia cannot list a term and then refer people to a larger article that puts it in context. Check out the index to any major encyclopedia and compare it to the table of contents. Many terms indexed, but far fewer actual articles. There is no issue of censorship whatsoever. This is hyperbole. Finally, I am hardly an apologist for militant Islamic fundamentalism, having published both popular and scholarly articles discussing how it intersects with clerical or theocratic forms of neofascism.--Cberlet 17:17, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a point where overly abstract treatments become useless. And anyways Neofascism and religion is way too long and disunified. Klonimus 23:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I also object on the grounds that this article is too large to have as a subsection, and it will unbalance the article Neofascism and religion (having too much info on one topic in a section, IMO, gives it more legitimacy than the other topics in other sections - thus the problem would be one of NPOV). - Ta bu shi da yu 03:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

<----- The text section on Islam on the Neofascism and religion page has 1683 words. The text section on the page Islamofascism (term) has 1336 words (with commented out sections counted). The claim above, therefore, does not make a lot of sense. Most of the Islamofascism (term) page simply repeats what is already on Neofascism and religion. Islamofascism (term) primarily consists of quotes. Neofascism and religion also has a discussion of the concept both in the Islam section and the general section that includes cites to scholars. One page is a thoughtful discussion, the other is a cut-and-paste creation that will be a magnet for bigots and revert wars.--Cberlet 15:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to chime in here: there are several issues of neutrality in the Neofascism_and_religion#Islam section: it's full of weasel words, unsourced claims and peacock terms (why are we arguing for or against a particular POV through the use of persuasive language?). And, as I've already stated I feared, the section is far larger than the rest of the sections and has unbalanced the article. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, the reason Islamofascism (term) resembles a cut-and-paste job is that we've sourced nearly every sentence in order to discourage OR and POV warring. Neofascism and religion has more unsourced musing, so it flows more nicely but is more vulnerable to POV warriors who want to charge in with a thorough rewrite. Babajobu 18:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

History of Islamofascism

comment -- This survived AfD six months ago. If it survives again will it be AfD'd again? I don't know if there are any guidlines for this, but it seems devisive, and potentially abusive, to keep bringing things up for votes until the desired result is acheived. Tom Harrison 17:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

This would never have happened if the 'original concensus to keep the article had been respected by Mel Ettis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), long long ago. Who instead redirected this over to Chip Berlet's project on "Neofascism and religion" which became a morass of politically correct froath. "Neofascism" as a term gets only 21,000 googles which is less than a 10th of what "Islamofascism" gets.

After GWB used Islamofascism in a major speach in late 2005, it was decided to restore the article, which led to editwars with the usual suspects. Mel Ettis, again by imperial fiat decided to end the fighting by a redirect and protect and calimed that a 26/23 majority in the AfD favor of keeping the article was really a clear concensus to redirect. After much whinning, Ta Bu, rewound the article and edit warring commenced again. At this point BYT blew a gasket, and decided to try and go for an VfD again and recreate Judeofascism (which is what Islamist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did during the original VfD). Klonimus 06:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Systemic bias

Ta bu did not introduce this phrase to the discussion -- I did.

No one else seems willing to address these questions, so I'll post them here:

  • Is there a discrepancy in the way we're handling terms like Kike and Zionazi as compared with the way we're handling Islamofascism? Reasoning so far seems to be, "It's notable, go for it." Well ...
  • Is Kike prominent in usage?
  • Where are their stand-alone articles?
There is no discrepancy. Misplaced Pages is open to articles on all notable topics. We could have a great article about "kike". The term has a fascinating history, lots of interesting folk etymologies floating around. Probably as notable as Islamofascist. I say go work on it! Babajobu 18:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment: I agree with Babajobu. Also Zionazi would be fine once GWB or others start prominently using it. -- JJay 18:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
BYT, you are grasping at straws. Klonimus 00:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
He is indeed..
"Kike" is a racist term in much the way that "n**ger" is, "Islamofascism" refers to a religio-political concept - Islam is not a "race", it is a religion... The two terms are very different. --Chaosfeary 15:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Chaosfeary, true, but Misplaced Pages does include articles on racist terms, including "n**ger". If anyone were interested in producing a similar article for "kike", there wouldn't be any problem with that. Whether we're talking about political/religious concepts or racist terms, the only criterion for admission to Misplaced Pages is notability. Babajobu 15:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm actually shocked that we don't yet have an article on Gun nut Borisblue 14:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

To the closing admin When this is closed, can we have a tally of votes done. Including a tally for keep+move back to Islamofascism vs plain keep. Also can Islamo-fascism be properly aimed as well pending outcome of this vFd. Klonimus 00:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

If you voted "keep"

... I want to ask you to reconsider your vote based on the following.

My intent here really, really is not to offend anyone, but to address frankly the issues of hate speech and systemic bias. In order to do that, I have to use some nasty words, and I apologize for that.

So.

  • Would you vote to keep or delete a stand-alone article entitled Zionazism?
  • Me, my strong initial instinct is to vote to delete it. My guess is you agree with that instinct.
  • But if you vote to keep Islamofascism, what is the logical reason you could provide for voting "delete" on Zionazism? Let's look at them.
  • Google hits. My first thought, too, but it just doesn't wash. First, Gay Niggers Association of America, just as distasteful as Zionazism, has one-twentieth as many hits, and it's alive and well. ("Don't bother" department: Yes, there have been AfDs. And every AfD one can point to is one that it survived.) Second, blogs can and do inflate a term's seeming importance. Finally, note that the big argument for resurrecting Islamofascism this time around has been that Bush used it, not that, say, Klonimus did, or I did, on one of these talk pages.
  • Hateful/patently offensive/not worthy of promotion: The real reason you and I would be voting to delete Zionazism. Right? Fine. No comment. Well, this is exactly what I've been saying here, and I most fervently agree, but apparently drawing lines like that is not what we're all about, so we're left with ...
  • Not notable. Last stop on the train. And this, alas, is where the obscenity of our current political culture is going to catch up with us, just as it has apparently caught up with us on Islamofascism.
Daniel Pipes uses the term in Minaiatures, Transaction Publishers, 2004
… Huzzam Ayloush, uses the term “zionazi” when referring to Israelis …


Brad Stetson uses the term on page 114 of Human Dignity and Contemporary Liberalism Praeger, 2004


"Zionazism" is the title of an infamous (and, whether we feel like admitting it or not, newsworthy) book:
One of the books found in Arafat’s palace in Bethlehem was Zionazism. Fight it before It Kills You (al-sahyunaziya. Qatiluha qabla an taqtulukum), by Mustafa Akhmis, who presented it personally with a written dedication to Arafat’s close associate Yusuf `Abdallah. The book, dedicated to the martyrs of the Palestinian revolution, refuted Jewish history and the origins of contemporary Jewry, denied the Holocaust and described Zionism as “the eighth crusade” planned by imperialist countries.


Google news cited story uses "Zionazi" in headline:


Arab Media Review: Anti-Semitism and other trends offers this citation:
Those are some of the common points between Nazism and Zionism, i.e. the Zionazism that Israel’s heads and spiritual leaders operate... “ ‘Abed al-Malik Khalil (from Moscow), “Zionazism”, Al-Ahram, May 22, 2004


Zvi Bar'el's article Even the best of friends which appeared April 10, 2002 in Ha'aretz features the following passage:
When television announcers in Egypt adopt the term "Zionazism," and voices in Jordan talk openly about the "level of decline" in relations with Israel, Turkey, even if gritting its teeth, is continuing to do business as usual.


So -- I give up. You tell me. I want to vote against Zionazism, too. But if I've voted to keep Islamofascism, how exactly do I justify doing that? BrandonYusufToropov 13:51, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the message on my page. In fact, you make a very convincing argument here. As a result, I would gladly vote to keep an article entitled Zionazism (term). Dsol 15:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
If the term is in current use and is notable, it should be included. If Zionazi meets those requirements, I want there to be an article about it, telling the reader who uses it, when, and how. Tom Harrison 15:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, if "Zionazism" meets a reasonable threshold of notability, then there could/should be an article about it. "Offensiveness" of term is of no significance or interest when determining notability. It's really not complicated, Brandon! Babajobu 15:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Right. It's simple. In the abstract. In the real WP world you and I live in, as of right now, Islamofascism has an article but Zionazism doesn't -- Raghead has an article but Kike doesn't -- and so on. "Go forth and wallow in the muck until those things become articles", in my view, really isn't a very constructive piece of advice for dealing with that state of affairs. BrandonYusufToropov 15:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, Brandon, there are also more articles exploring Israeli shortcomings than there are articles exploring the shortcomings of any Arab or Muslim country. So imbalances go both ways. Misplaced Pages reflects the interests of its contributors. We can't force Wikipedians to be equally interested in everything, and we can't enforce an "equally offensive to each community" policy. We require a certain minimum of notability, and an NPOV approach. That's served Misplaced Pages pretty well, and I can't think of a better alternative. Babajobu 16:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
And this is exactly my point. I don't imagine the trolls are going to be very even-handed about this. However, when an editor like yourself acknowledges with equal fervor that the hatefulness of the terms Zionazism and Islamofascism are entirely beside the point, and that both articles are notable, we're getting somewhere. BrandonYusufToropov 16:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I've said this from the very beginning, Brandon. You've wanted to paint me as some kind of anti-Islam partisan, but I've insisted all along that notable terms are notable, no matter whose cockles they get up. Jewish cockles or Christian cockles or Hindu cockles or atheist cockles have no more bearing on notability than Muslim cockles. I've never heard the term "Zionazi" used, and it certainly doesn't have the currency that "Islamofascism" has attained, but based on the citations you gave above it looks like it probably is notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. Babajobu 16:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

In summary: It would be safe to say that most of the editors agree that:

Any topic that meets the editorial standards of Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines should be capable of standing on its own in this encyclopedia. Of course we also want to make sure that we do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point.--CltFn 15:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. When I start seeing Zionazi in the general press as much as Islamofascism is, I'll vote for an article. Right now, I'd probably be neutral in a VfD, depending on the content of the article. --RaiderAspect 11:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Presumably you would also vote to delete Unitarian Jihad and Gay Niggers Association of America, as well as all other politically related articles that fail to meet the standard you've proposed above? BrandonYusufToropov 00:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't know anything about Unitarian Jihad, but where do you get off saying GNAA doesn't meet standards of notability? GNAA has loads of mentions in mainstream press. It was subject to the same sort of "purge the offensive topic despite its notability!" hysteria as Islamofascism has been subjected to. Let's not go there again. Babajobu 00:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You misunderstand. Unknown person above whom one could identify by perusing the history of this page said that the standard for notability was seeing a term "in the general press as much as Islamofascism." I think that's an entirely arbitary yardstick for notability, and it sounds like you do, too. BrandonYusufToropov 01:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think a topic can be less notable than "Islamofascism" and still be notable. If Yasser Arafat owned a book titled "Zionazism" that probably establishes notability for me right there. But then I'm an inclusionist by nature. Babajobu 01:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry no change to my vote, I would vote to keep an article intitled Zionazi. Like Islamofacism it is a largly contentless confusion but that doesn't change the fact that in the non-perfect world we live in people talk nonsense. One of the reasons that we don't have an article for Zionazi is that we most of us live in England or America and thus focus on our idiot leaders rather then the idoit leaders of the Arab world and the propaganda they use to controll their population. By having articles on these phrazes wikipedia can infact play the positive role of exposing their vacuousness. --JK the unwise 09:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The unknown person was me, forgot to sign the comment. And your twisting my words. I dont mean that whatever-level-of-notability Islamofascism is should be where the line is drawn. I mean that IF Zionazism was as widely used as Islamofascism, I would without hesitation vote to keep it. However, if you want an ancedote, I saw 'Islamofascism' mentioned in an article in the Economist, undoubtedly a mainstream news source, today. I have never seen Zionazism mentioned in anything approaching a mainstream news source. --RaiderAspect 11:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You see my point, though. Determining notability based on what you personally happen to have come across in a newspaper is not the way to figure out which articles to keep and which to delete. And by the way, if I was twisting your words, I was doing so by quoting you verbatim. BrandonYusufToropov 11:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Misquotation - You quote out of context whenever it suits you. --Chaosfeary 11:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
What everyone seems to keep forgetting, is that Islamofascism (term) isn't an article because of any other reason than that it was becoming unwieldily large in List of political epithets. It has nothing to do with it being any more or less "important" than Zionazi or Zionazism, or Judeofascism, except inasmuch as the term "Islamofascism" is used far more frequently, and by more noteworthy people than either of the other two terms. As such, there's more subject matter to cover. Tomer 07:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, and keep (term) in the title. "Islamofascism" is indeed a widely used term; however, it is itself a POV term (and IMHO, a misleading one), and so there is good reason to be wary of simply titling an article Islamofascism, since that implies that such a beast exists, and that that's what the article is about. In practical terms, putting/keeping all of the material in Islamofascism (term) in the Islam section of Neofascism and religion makes the latter article too long and overly tipped against Islam. Much of that material should be broken out into its own article, which on any other, less controversial topic, would be titled in a way that follows logically from the parent article. However, in this case, most of the material in that section doesn't concern any actual connection between neofascist movements and Islam or Islamism, but the characterization of Islamism and jihadism as totalitarian, and therefore fascistic, by its opponents. This vilification is real, it is prominent in the English-speaking world, and it needs to be confronted and discussed. There is no better way to do it than in the existing article. No matter what happens, any surviving article must stay NPOV, and should continue to focus on the term itself (as does this article and this one), rather than the phenomenon it purports to describe.
I understand the impulse to want to keep this pejorative, misleading, POV term out of Misplaced Pages entirely. We must not permit Misplaced Pages to become a vehicle for the partisans who employ such terms to advance their propaganda aims. However, something still needs to be said about the term, including its origins and context, and if Misplaced Pages doesn't say it, who will? Like Dominionism, this should not be a word simply left to incubate and strengthen itself within partisan echo-chambers indefinitely. And for the record, I would also support keeping a Zionazism (term) article around, as long as that "(term)" part stays in the title, and the article itself can be kept NPOV and focused on the term itself and not what it supposedly describes. skoosh ] 14:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
By this logic, does having articles titled Loch Ness Monster, Perpetual motion or Time travel imply that such things exist? Carbonite | Talk 14:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Let me answer that question by posing another: Have you been watching this page lately? Current major accomplishment has been eliminating a B&W photograph of a turban-clad mufti inspecting 1940-era Nazi troops. BrandonYusufToropov 15:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I've no doubt that the article needs some major work, but I do disagree with deleting it or giving it a nonstandard title. I just don't see how eliminating the "(term)" from the title somehow implies that "such a beast exists". Carbonite | Talk 15:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The Brain 23:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.