This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) at 16:01, 19 April 2022 (→Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version: We need more input from other users.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 16:01, 19 April 2022 by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) (→Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version: We need more input from other users.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Russian invasion of Ukraine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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 view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: Questions about article title issues and changes?
A1: There have been many requests to change the title of this article. The last successful one resulted in a consensus to change the title to "Russian invasion of Ukraine": this link.
Q2: Why is Ukraine not a part of the NATO military alliance?
A2: In 2008 Ukraine applied for membership to the NATO military alliance and was rejected from the alliance, at the same time as Georgia was rejected from the NATO military alliance. As of 2023 with Finland being added to the NATO military alliance, Ukraine is still not a member of the NATO military alliance.
Q3: Why does the article show explicit images?
A3: Misplaced Pages is not censored, and articles may include content that some readers may find objectionable if it is relevant and adds value to the article. See the Content Disclaimer for further information.
Q4: Can you add X country to the infobox because it is sending weapons to Ukraine? Why isn't NATO in the infobox?
A4: A discussion took place to decide whether countries supplying arms should be listed in the infobox, and the outcome was 'No Consensus'.Please do not add individual countries without discussing here first. While consensus can change, please review the closed discussion, and try to bring forward novel arguments. Q5: Can you update the losses claimed by Russia/Ukraine? A5: This generally happens quickly after they are published. Please don't make an edit request. Q6: Why is the map in the infobox outdated/wrong? A6: The map is only as accurate as publicly available reliable sources. Please remember that due to the operational secrecy and the disinformation efforts by all sides, as well as the fog of war, the map may not be able to meet any particular standard for completeness or accuracy until well after the conflict is over. If you believe you can offer constructive feedback which would improve the map, supported by reliable sources, please leave a comment at File talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. There is no use in leaving it here. |
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Referencing and citation: criterion met
Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(The heading above is a link to the archived RFC as it is significant and I'm assuming this will be discussed more while not cluttering the talk page with a 29 page discussion Phiarc (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC))
Same link: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox? --N8wilson 12:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Proposal: Modify article structure, based on chronology
As of this week, the war has appeared to enter a new phase. Based on this turn of events, i would like to recommend that we create some chronological-based structure for this article, rather than solely by region.
- all of the current sections would be grouped under a larger heading, "Start of invasion until early April 2022." then an entirely new section for "Early April 2022 to present" would be created,
- this could also be grouped further in subsections by region, or by military campaign, or various other mechanisms.
- there need not be an absolute cutoff in time from one section to the next. if the end of a campaign that began in the first phase has overlapped slightly in to the second phase, then that would be totally fine.
as per an article in the Washington Post, please see the quote below. this highlights a vast new conflict that appears to be starting in the eastern region of Ukraine. this amounts to a major new military campaign.
Russian forces bombarded several towns in eastern Ukraine on Sunday, destroying an airport and damaging several civilian targets, as the war careens toward a pivotal new phase. The shift of the war and fears of full-scale military confrontation on open terrain prompted Ukrainian officials to again call for Western alliances to step up weapons supply efforts to strengthen Ukraine’s position on the battlefield. Ukraine is preparing for a “massive attack in the east,” its ambassador to the United States, Oksana Markarova, warned Sunday on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” Of the Russian forces, she said: “There are so many of them and they still have so much equipment. And it looks like they’re going to use all of it. So we are preparing for everything.” Military analysts have been predicting the movement of the war toward the eastern border that Ukraine shares with Russia in an area known as Donbas. The energy-rich region includes territory where pro-Russian forces have been battling the Kyiv government since 2014.
how does that sound? Please feel free to comment. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 14:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Comments
- Seems like a good idea to me. Jr8825 • Talk 14:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Both Russia and Ukraine have acknowledged that a second phase of the Invasion is to be expected at this time following its withdrawal of the Kyiv front. This next phase is to start within the next two weeks, allowing for the resupply and redeployment of these Russian troops to Southeastern Ukraine. Suggest for now that editors wait at least for the start of the incursion by this second phase of the Russian invasion in order to see how extensive the Misplaced Pages outline for this article might need to be updated. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- I hear your point, and I appreciate your reply. However, for articles that track current events, it is often better to simply change the structure now, if we know we will need to do sin the future anyway. This conflict is complex and so fast-moving, that respectfully, I would like to open a new chronological structure now, just to greatly make it easier to update this article and to keep it current. One of the main benefits of articles like this one, is that we can capture events as they happen, open up new possible ideas, ad then restructure later.
- Based on your comments, I will create a new article now, just to provide a chronological approach to this conflict. this structure is already in effect fo the Syrian Civil War , on a notable scale. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- In principle that's possible, but at this point its still unclear if Russian will be combining both the Southern front and the Eastern front into a newly integrated Invasion front under the newly appointed field commander. At present the article is organized into two fronts operating in the southeast of Ukraine awaiting reinforcement by troops and tank divisions being redeployed from the Kyiv offensive. I have added just now the satellite image articles for this redeployment of Russian military divisions. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sm8900 Rather than breaking off a new article for this second phase of the Invasion as you did here Russian Invasion of Ukraine (April 2022 to present), would it not be easier to simply start of a new section for the second phase of the Invasion here in this article? Why create a new page which will need to reduplicate much of this article as to its references, background information, and citations? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:21, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- you make some good points. okay, I will move that article to my own user space. I will create a new section here in this article within the near future, as long as no one objects. I appreciate your helpful comments, ErnestKrause (talk · contribs)--Sm8900 (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- If you think its useful, then I could reorganize the Invasion section here to combine the two active fronts (Southern and Eastern) into a single section of the TOC in the invasion section here, and that will allow you to start the second phase of the invasion when you are ready. At present its just not know if there will be multiple fronts in the second phase of the invasion all originating in a newly united Russian Southeastern invasion front. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that idea sounds pretty good to me. I favor any structure for this article which primarily aligns with some chronological sequence for the conflict overall, and then within that time-based structure, can also focus on specific regions, campaigns, or battles, but primarily based on when they happened, rather than solely based on their geographical location. so yes, I would suggest you move ahead with the changes that you propose above. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- The TOC of the article is now adjusted for the active fronts being separated as a section to "Southeastern fronts" and different from the other fronts which have been closed by the Russian troop withdrawals. The article TOC is currently set at '3' and you may want to change it to '4' to make the subsections I have just created visible in the TOC displayed for the article as a whole. The active front sections are now created within the current Invasion section. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- that sounds good. thanks for your efforts. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:06, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- I would like to add some additional text to the section heading for the current section "Invasion and Resistance", to explicitly reference one general time period which includes the period of time from the start of the invasion, until the start of April 2022; and then the new section would explictly indicate a second time period, starting in April 2022. I don't have any urgency for this to occur; you are free to make this edit, or I may do so in a little while, based on the content as you structured it. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- My original thought was that you wanted to do a Phase one and Phase two for the Southeastern front section, which still makes sense to me, and that you would then date the Phase one and Phase two as to the dates which fit the best. When I previously thought of doing this as a complete section duplication, then there was a problem of all of the other subsections of the article at its tail end which deal with Western Ukraine, the large scale missile attacks country-wide, etc., which would be difficulty to reduplicate. Can you do what you want to do on the principle of a Phase one and Phase two within the new Southeastern front section which I just added to the TOC? Also, it might help to mention a time-frame for doing all this; Russian sources seem to be emphasizing that the end of the siege of Mariupol will signal the end of Phase one and the start of Phase two for the Russian invasion. Is this worth noting for what you have planned at this time? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi. ok, that sounds totally fine. I can use the approach that you suggest, exactly as you describe it above. if I need to change it, I can always change it later, and discuss it here. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:29, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, no, wait a second. my thought was to do a "phase one" for the entire conflict, and a "phase two" for the entire conflict. since this is an article about a historical event, the time frame is of paramount importance. the sections on regions can stay as they are, but they need to be grouped into an overall section for a phase of the conflict based upon chronological grouping for the entire conflict, not just for one region. after all, future readers, editors, and future generations will view any historical event based upon its timing, its dates, chronological sequence, etc.
- if we adopt a set of time periods now to define the history of the conflict, we are only anticipating the structure which we will undoubtedly adopt for this historical topic eventually anyway.
- My original thought was that you wanted to do a Phase one and Phase two for the Southeastern front section, which still makes sense to me, and that you would then date the Phase one and Phase two as to the dates which fit the best. When I previously thought of doing this as a complete section duplication, then there was a problem of all of the other subsections of the article at its tail end which deal with Western Ukraine, the large scale missile attacks country-wide, etc., which would be difficulty to reduplicate. Can you do what you want to do on the principle of a Phase one and Phase two within the new Southeastern front section which I just added to the TOC? Also, it might help to mention a time-frame for doing all this; Russian sources seem to be emphasizing that the end of the siege of Mariupol will signal the end of Phase one and the start of Phase two for the Russian invasion. Is this worth noting for what you have planned at this time? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- The TOC of the article is now adjusted for the active fronts being separated as a section to "Southeastern fronts" and different from the other fronts which have been closed by the Russian troop withdrawals. The article TOC is currently set at '3' and you may want to change it to '4' to make the subsections I have just created visible in the TOC displayed for the article as a whole. The active front sections are now created within the current Invasion section. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that idea sounds pretty good to me. I favor any structure for this article which primarily aligns with some chronological sequence for the conflict overall, and then within that time-based structure, can also focus on specific regions, campaigns, or battles, but primarily based on when they happened, rather than solely based on their geographical location. so yes, I would suggest you move ahead with the changes that you propose above. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- If you think its useful, then I could reorganize the Invasion section here to combine the two active fronts (Southern and Eastern) into a single section of the TOC in the invasion section here, and that will allow you to start the second phase of the invasion when you are ready. At present its just not know if there will be multiple fronts in the second phase of the invasion all originating in a newly united Russian Southeastern invasion front. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- you make some good points. okay, I will move that article to my own user space. I will create a new section here in this article within the near future, as long as no one objects. I appreciate your helpful comments, ErnestKrause (talk · contribs)--Sm8900 (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- the section for Phase Two would of course have its own subsections, based upon region, just as Phase One does. but this way we are keepign the chronological period for individual events, as a sound chronological basis for the entire sequence of events in this conflict. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding the time frame, it seems to make sense to wait perhaps 2-3 days for what many sources are calling the immanent fall of Mariupol. Russian invasion in phase two should be very clear at that transition point. Is it possible to wait 2-3 days for end of Siege of Mariupol before a final decision on the TOC? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sure! okay, this sounds fine. I would be glad to work cooperatively on this. if you wish to wait for that time to elapse, and then pick an approach on that basis, that sounds totally fine to me. We can discuss this further later, using the time period that you indicate. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 18:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding the time frame, it seems to make sense to wait perhaps 2-3 days for what many sources are calling the immanent fall of Mariupol. Russian invasion in phase two should be very clear at that transition point. Is it possible to wait 2-3 days for end of Siege of Mariupol before a final decision on the TOC? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, I am playing catch-up with this discussion as I have been away for a few days. I have no issue with the present "Invasion and resistance" section being refactored to represent a period of time from the start of the invasion up to some point in time that represents the end of the first phase of the invasion. However, I don't think we are at the point where we can populate a section on the second phase except to say Russian forces are reorganising and that isn't enough. The key point I would make is that we have a number of daughter articles that are hat-noted for many of the subsections presently under the main section "Invasion and resistance". Consequently, we need to be aware of, and maintain a harmony and consistency between this (the parent article) and these daughter articles. I think we should continue to use the present "Invasion and resistance" to report the first phase - ie we don't try to rewrite what is already in the article, though it might well need some tweaking for continuity. This appears to me to be the proposed course and I would add my support to it. As we now have daughter articles for much of the events, I would also suggest that we can be more ruthless in our summary of events in the parent article (ie here). Cinderella157 (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Media depictions: Uncited OR?
Moving this here for discussion: "social media users showed sympathy for Russian narratives more due to cynicism about US foreign policy rather than support for the invasion as such."
While possibly true, this is followed by zero citations. There are quite a few in front of it though Elinruby (talk) 16:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- It could be deleted or have a cite tag added prior to it being split to a new page or moved to one of the sibling pages, and deleted from this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Nod, just noting it as a change somebody might disagree with. I will restore the text if the citations that precede it support it or if somebody has another good reason why it should be there. I will need to verify those sources anyway. I have seen the kind of post this is talking about but it should be cited. Has anyone started a social media in the Ukraine invasion page? One might be warranted. For now I guess I will summarize these two paragraphs and move the highly referenced detail to Russian information war against Ukraine. This does also include Ukrainian actions, which is about to become more prominent in the pending reorganization, if anyone is concerned about that. I will now be offline for several hours Elinruby (talk) 16:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- Elinruby, I take it that there were no sources cited to support this statement? Cinderella157 (talk) 02:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Actually there has been some user page discussion about that and I have been working on other parts meanwhile. Somebody made a case to me that it is supported by the references that *precede* it. I can look into that tonight; I am not quite home yet and have in the corners of the day been dragging Media portrayals of the Ukraine crisis, where much of that will be going, out of past tense and 2015. Elinruby (talk) 02:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Elinruby, as you correctly indicate, we would need at least a reputable news source for the claim. Let me know the outcome and I will close this as resolved. Alternatively, you could close this yourself using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}} (see examples above). Cinderella157 (talk) 03:06, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ok. I can do that, and it will probably be tonight. If a reference that supports this statement precedes this, I will add a named reference, if not edit into a true statement. I am home now and gearing up to move text. Elinruby (talk) 03:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
on reflection I am going to copy this text over to Media portrayal of the Ukrainian crisis and finish verifying the references there. (There are eight in that sentence and so far they are very good but don't support cynicism about the US so far). Considering the extent to which I've been ask to condense this is too much detail considering the size of the article. I can always re-add the cynicism later if that seems like a good. My feeling is that it is probably both true and citable, if not yet obviously cited, but in an article this prominent and disputed it needs, really needs, to be specifically cited.I have copied the whole section over and now will summarize hard, in which this fragment will go until specidically cited. I have today free to sort this out. I am leaving this talk page section open for at least part of the day to give people a chance to comment. Unless somebody else wants to close it as clearly uncontroversial, shrug. Over and out. Elinruby (talk) 17:30, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Part of the statement seems to be supported by the citations. They all support that social media users showed support/sympathy for Russian narratives due in (large) part to dislike/distrust of US/Western foreign policy or anti-Western/anti-US sentiment. Whether they do this more than show actual support for the invasion is more dubious, so that part can be deleted. But if it read: "social media users showed sympathy for Russian narratives due in large part to dislike or distrust of US foreign policy", it'd be valid (& I would support it being re-added to a more relevant section like "Reactions" for a WP:GLOBAL perspective). Donkey Hot-day (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
It’s been moved already but I am not against Donkey Hot-day’s proposal to put it in Reactions instead (or as well), if that edit is made. I came in here to close this section but since there is a new proposal I will leave it open a while longer Elinruby (talk) 06:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Environmental impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
I started an article for the Environmental impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 April 2022
 | This edit request to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On April 14th the Russian Federation flagship, "Moskva," sank. https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/14/europe/russia-navy-cruiser-moskva-fire-abandoned-intl-hnk-ml/index.html. Russia has aid that ammunition had an accidental explosion. The Ukraine forces have announced that they targeted and hit Moskva with 2 Neptune missiles and it started a fire, listed to the side and began to sink. The loss of this vessel is a huge morale boost to Ukraine and loss to Russia. This ship had bombarded Mariupol. It has surface to air (both short and ling range), naval ship to ship missiles, anti submarine armaments and other weapons. https://en.as.com/latest_news/moskva-ship-how-big-is-it-when-was-it-built-what-weapons-does-it-have-n/ AgAero89 (talk) 21:47, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I made this addition after the Russian and Ukraines both reported the loss of this vessel. AgAero89 (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Please be specific as to the edit you are requesting to be made. The article already has a paragraph on the sinking of the Moskve. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:57, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 10:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Armenia accepting Russian economic migrants
The Refugees section lists several countries that have accepted Russian political refugees and economic migrants ("A second refugee crisis created by the invasion and by the Russian government's crackdown has been the flight of approximately 300,000 Russian political refugees and economic migrants, the largest exodus from Russia since the October Revolution of 1917, to countries such as the Baltic states, Finland, Georgia, and Turkey"). Armenia, having accepted 43000 refugees from Russia, was listed among them but has since been removed. The referred article in this section talks mainly about Armenia as the major destination for Russian IT workers.
--Unotheo (talk) 02:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version
I would like to propose that the main map shown in the infobox be changed to the colourblind-friendly version.
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Current map
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Proposed replacement
The current map (on the left above) does not offer sufficient contrast for individuals diagnosed with tritanopia.
Although tritanopia incidence rate is about 1%, this highly visible article has been viewed 5,445,185 times at the time this was written, which means that we have likely served this map to individuals diagnosed with tritanopia more than 54 000 times. Of course, this number will only go up.
Per MOS:ACCESS, accessibility is a core WMF policy, and it "may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by Wikimedia Foundation officers or staff nor local policies of any Wikimedia project"
. Based on this, I think we have a clear case for action to switch to the colourblind-friendly map.
Simulations of tritanopia:
Current whole page Just the image
Proposed replacement image
Please be patient as the tool loads, it may take a few seconds to be ready. Melmann 11:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Strong support - No love lost for a map with new colour schemes. The proposal works perfectly for everyone, a genuinely good change. PenangLion (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support with suggestion. This replacement looks a lot better. My suggestion is that there needs to be better contrast between "troop movement arrows" and the background colors, otherwise it is hard to see. If troop movements were, for example, black that would make them a lot easier to see. Another alternative might be to "outline" (any colored troop movement arrows) in clear black lines so you can really see these movement arrows. Or alternately still, just experiment with other "arrow colors", but always strive for strong contrast. Chesapeake77 (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support IMO the new one looks a lot better, since there's a larger contrast between the occupied/non-occupied territories. >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 12:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support Looks a lot clearer to me (average sighted?) 51.6.155.34 (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support I hate the yellow on yellow. Hard to see, if not impossible, on mobile devices.--JOJ 16:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, yes but I would also mention that the "grey" troop movement arrows are also hard to see. Better contrast there is still needed. Chesapeake77 (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- IIRC this was discussed on Commons after the first overwrite (c:File_talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine.svg#Voting_on_two_color_schemes), and editors decided to keep copy A. Some colourblind people commented there saying the one on the right wasn't actually easier to see. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, I do think its a good idea to have the advances/movements of forces in different colours, so readers can tell the forces apart, maybe not have red arrows on orange for the Russians and maybe blue instead of unclear Grey for the Ukrainians. ~ BOD ~ 23:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Supportper MOS:ACCESS though contrast in the movement arrows should be increased. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)- There appears to be a better option (option 1) per discussion below - Discussing colour changes for c:File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Weak support The gray arrows on cream background for Ukraine are much clearer than the current version, but are hard to tell apart from the borders on the map for people with normal color vision, as is the new icon assigned to the older bombardments. The new contrast choice for the Russian troops and Russian-controlled territory is also somewhat worse than the original for viewers with protanopia or deuteranopia. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support for WP:ACCESSIBILITY, plus as someone with a type of colourblindness that doesn't affect the colours on the current map, I find the new clearer to read. --Inops (talk) 12:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Object One can discern the differences in gradient in the simulation of tritanopia version. It does not affect the viewing of the image. The orange subtlely resembles the color of the ribbon of Saint George, a Russian military symbol thus it would bring to the map a layer of unwanted meaning. Sgnpkd (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose I've seen better suggestions, such as a light blue and red one or a white(ish) and black one. This suggestion sure is better than the green and orange one but I am not convinced that this is the best possible version we can come out with and approving this version already could make people stop proposing alternatives. Super Ψ Dro 09:44, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose It gives passive colors to Ukraine while making Russian gains seem overwhelmingly dominant. The current file is accessible to 99 % of the readers and the color blind accessible version already in the file page. Viewsridge (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Very Strongly Oppose – The proposed colorblind map colors aren't intuitive, and for normal color vision people, the contrasting is just terrible in some areas (such as grey arrows on a light background). The colors are jarring and even a little confusing, as some of the colors are too close to others, while the proposed colors make it appear as if Ukraine doesn't even hold any territory. The grey colors for cities is also terrible and difficult to distinguish against the background. Not only that, but the colors don't mesh well together and don't look nice. If we implement a colorblind-friendly version, I prefer a version that is close to the current version of the map. As a matter of fact, I would strongly oppose any proposed color scheme that bears little to no resemblance to the current colors. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- There is another discussion below on some proposals to use a similar coloring scheme to the current colors that is also workable for colorblind individuals. Please also have a look at that discussion. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:01, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Greyshark09, Spesh531, Kwamikagami, Dawsongfg, RobiH, Outth, Eoiuaa, Kippenvlees1, Symmachus Auxiliarus, Fogener Haus, Physeters, Lx 121, Berrely, HurricaneEdgar, MarioJump83, Tradedia, Ermanarich, Brobt, CentreLeftRight, Wiz9999, Borysk5, Oganesson007, Nate Hooper, Rob984, Ceha, AlphaMikeOmega, WeifengYang, PutItOnAMap, TheNavigatrr, Beshogur, AntonSamuel, Paolowalter, Emk9, EkoGraf, Rr016, Tan Khaerr, Kami888, and MrPenguin20: I'd like to hear the opinions of other users who work on these maps, the map modules, or have participated in the map color discussions on Commons, as I think they should have a say in the matter as well. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:01, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Casualties
ANSWERED In accordance with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the consensus here is not to report casualties in the infobox because reports vary so widely (as explained by Chesapeake77). They are tabulated in a section of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hey, just wanted to suggest that the casualty numbers get updated. They’re from Feb 25 I believe. I would try, but I’ve never edited an info box and I’m scared I’d mess it up. FinnSoThin (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- The Infobox avoids casualty numbers of any kind and there is a better way to handle that.
- Instead, list the estimates from the most notable sources and say, for example "per Ukraine" or "per United Nations" or "per Russia", etc... and let the reader understand that. This is much better than deciding for the reader that they shouldn't know any of the notable estimates because the process is not perefect. Chesapeake77 (talk) 18:31, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Concerned that this was such a short discussion. I also think the "outcome" is not adequate, most Misplaced Pages articles about war DO have casualty claims from all notable parties in their Infoboxes. Each claim is mentioned as a "claim" and not a fact. Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Of concerning note: this discussion was both started and closed (after only 2 hours and 25 minutes) on the same day (15 April) and only after 2 comments, a "conclusion" was drawn. Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Moskva edit request
CNN is saying that the Pentagon now confirms that this ship was struck by two Neptune missiles. As of right now the article is still both-sidesing this.
I could of course make this change myself but I heard this rather that saw it online, and since it’s disputed, somebody should make sure other media are also saying it. I am myself somewhat behind on making changes to this article that I promised to take care of, and the resulting need to update daughter articles, so I will just be the messenger here. Elinruby (talk) 19:27, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Top image
I think the top image should not be an up to date map, but instead one that shows Russia's maximum control over Ukrainian territory before they were pushed back before Kiev. The up to date map should be further down in the article. If Russia is pushed further and further back, the map would have less usefulless in illustrating an invasion. In a hypothetical scenario, where Russia is pushed back to the same borders as 2014, the map would have zero value in illustrating anything. Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Problematic sentence about casualties
The article currently contains the following sentence:
"According to a researcher at the Department of Peace and Conflict Research at Uppsala University in Sweden, regarding Russian military losses, Ukraine's government was engaged in a misinformation campaign aimed to boost morale and Western media was generally happy to accept its claims."
There is no citation, which needs fixing. If there is no citation, the statement needs to be removed. If a valid citation does indeed exist, it needs to be put into context and verified (does wikipedia have a policy on statements of individual researchers?).
PerLugdunum (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's better to include the claims of various sides re: casualties and describe them as "claims". Otherwise then we are censoring and not allowing the reader to think for themselves.
- Simply adding "per Ukraine" or "per the NATO" or "per Russia" to these numbers is far better than having an article with zero numbers.
- Source/citation is already there, right after the sentence that follows the one quoted by PerLugdunum, because the citation is a reference for both sentences. As for source verification, it has already been previously discussed and editor consensus is the source is reliable and there is no reason to exclude the sentence. EkoGraf (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing this out. Indeed, the quote is almost verbatim from the source. It was my mistake to assume the reference did not cover both sentences. My second question was about whether one should have statements attributed to "a researcher" as opposed to a large body of researchers. I know too little to suggest anything concrete and will not push this further. PerLugdunum (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
The whole discussion under the casualties is problematic. The truth will come out, whether or not certain "editors" can dissemble at the moment via weasel words about unnamed "researchers" and "analysts". Yellowmellow45 (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Child casualties
Child casualty estimates should be included in the article. Chesapeake77 (talk) 10:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely. At least the Ukrainian authorities do publish them. Russian authorities, of course, hold on to the official narrative. The pinnacle came with the Kramatorsk missile strike, the Russian missile being marked "(in revenge) for the children". 2A02:AB04:2AB:700:ACA9:F624:F56D:2AE2 (talk) 18:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022
I recently created a draft for the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022. It is currently being voted on in the United States Congress. Thriley (talk) 20:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Invasion
I don't feel that invasion is correct term for Russia's "operation". Russia is murdering and terrorising civilians, destroying homes and infrastructure, and forcefully transporting Ukrainian citizens to Russia. There are too many incidents for this to be a case of few hot-headed individuals; this is part of their plan.
Those cities that are not under Russian control are bombed ruthlessly, targeting as many casualties and/or fear as possible. Those cities that are under Russian control are terrorised in the most despicable, cruel, and inhuman ways.
It is more and more evident that the goal of this operation is to destroy Ukraine, not to invade it. This means destroying Ukrainian culture and cities, murdering huge amount of Ukrainians, and trying to scare those who are alive to become Russians.
I agree with one thing that the Russian propaganda is spitting out: this should not be called "war". Even in war there are some rules, and there can even be something humane as a reason for war.
Alas, my English skills are not strong enough to find an accurate name for this operation. Invasion sounds too neutral, and does not convey the message that Russia is trying to commit genocide. Optimally, the term would also say that Russia is committing acts of terrorism. 130.234.128.26 (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- We go with what wp:RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with both the IP and Slatersteven. Yes, we should go with RS. When we named this article, early on the in the war, most RS used 'invasion'. At this point, more than 50 days in, my impression is that most RS are talking about "Russia's war on Ukraine", with War having become much more common than simply Invasion. Jeppiz (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- We have that already. Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- The war on Ukraine is already an article. It encompasses the topics of Crimea and the Donbas as well as the current invasion. For now, this invasion is just another (very devastating) phase of a pre-extant war. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 13:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with both the IP and Slatersteven. Yes, we should go with RS. When we named this article, early on the in the war, most RS used 'invasion'. At this point, more than 50 days in, my impression is that most RS are talking about "Russia's war on Ukraine", with War having become much more common than simply Invasion. Jeppiz (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Russian Nazi SS Connection?
I am not a linguist but someone recently pointed out that the Russian term спецоперация - currently translated to mean special operation, is Sonderbetrieb in German. Why's this a problem? Because SS Sonderbetrieben at Nazi extermination camps concentration camps slaughtered those held then used Sonderkommandos to dispose of the bodies. Given the frequency of, and numbers mentioned in reports about the horrific war crimes committed by Russian forces, could it be that the reason Putin chose the term 'special operation' (спецоперация) is because like Nazi Germany he wants to ethnically cleanse the land of Ukrainians not just conquer it? As I say, I am not a linguist but the connection, in conjunction with known warcrimes, is alarming. 人族 (talk) 02:14, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Please read wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
'Debate about genocide' article
There's a newly created article Ukrainian genocide during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Some editors here may be interested in:
- choosing a more accurate name (the article is mainly about a debate about whether genocide has taken/is taking place, or even more about whether well-known politicians have made the statement; it's not an overview about what genocide scholars or lawyers or other WP:RS say is genocide;
- copyediting it (quite a bit is needed).
The place to discuss is Talk:Ukrainian genocide during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the place to edit is directly in the article. Boud (talk) 09:41, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- THis is not the place to discuss this it is at that page. Maybe launch an wp:afd. Slatersteven (talk) 09:59, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Discussing colour changes for c:File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg
Moved: was at Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly version
- Comment: I think a much better proposal would be to use the colors I proposed on Commons, as shown below. One option for making the Ukrainian territory a lighter yellow (my personal preference, I think), and another option for making the Russian territory a slightly darker shade of pink (the closest option to the current colors and my proposal). Both of them have good contrast, are distinguishable both for normal vision and colorblind readers, and are similar to the current, widely-accepted map colors. Not only that, but these colors are more intuitive and aesthetically pleasing. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
| Land | Arrow | |
|---|---|---|
| Ukraine | ||
| Russia |
| Land | Arrow | |
|---|---|---|
| Ukraine | ||
| Russia |
The colorblind simulations are in the respective links, so please have a look at those. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
The images shown to the right depict the color schemes currently being discussed and voted on on Commons. And I'd prefer the first three to the proposal in question here. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I would much rather us stick with the status quo than switch to a new color scheme that is as jarring and unappealing as the proposal in this discussion, especially as it still has contrast issues. I'd even prefer one of the two map options I listed just above to the proposal (the current map with blue arrows, and the original colorblind-friendly map), but I prefer the proposed colors that I have laid out. Also, I think we could really use a color theory professional here, as the colors in the proposal were rather poorly-chosen. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Both options look much better than the White & Orange. Both of these choices look much more visually appealing to non colorblind viewers than the White & Orange proposal. I personally think option 1 is better visually, but it appears that option 2 would be better for colorblind viewers as it has a little more contrast. Physeters 21:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
@Greyshark09, Spesh531, Kwamikagami, Dawsongfg, RobiHi, Outth, Eoiuaa, Kippenvlees1, Symmachus Auxiliarus, Chesapeake77, Fogener Haus, Physeters, Viewsridge, Lx 121, Berrely, HurricaneEdgar, MarioJump83, Tradedia, Ermanarich, Brobt, CentreLeftRight, Wiz9999, Borysk5, Oganesson007, Nate Hooper, Rob984, Ceha, AlphaMikeOmega, WeifengYang, PutItOnAMap, TheNavigatrr, Beshogur, AntonSamuel, Paolowalter, and Emk9: Pinging other users with an interest in this topic, and those with experiencing in working with military conflict maps. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- @EkoGraf, Rr016, Tan Khaerr, Kami888, and MrPenguin20: Missed a few. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment it looks ok for me but gray arrows look kinda bad. Beshogur (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 is my first choice I prefer this to the other proposals as it does the best job resolving the issue of contrast which is important. Plus the background color is better in Option 1 than Option 2 (brighter, whereas Option 2 is a bit dim). Chesapeake77 (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 - I think this option satisfies all objections above, assuming it is correct to say that this version is still colorblind friendly. The lower contrast does not "make Russian gains seem overwhelmingly dominant". I also agree that the original proposal created MORE difficulty viewing it for NON-colorblind people, and option 1 does not do this. I approve, in general, of the goal to increase accessibility for colorblind users, but I also agree that the original proposal was not the best option to do this. I do think the new option 1 should suffice. Fieari (talk) 05:56, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I've split this discussion because it has nothing to do with the specific proposal listed in Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Changing the main map to the colourblind-friendly_version. That proposal is about replacing the one file with a specific different file, and this one discussed details of a commons file, a discussion which should normally be had on the file's talk page, not here. Melmann 06:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Option 1 appears to be the best across the four simulations and for unimpaired vision. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Option 1 but perhaps with light yellow arrows instead of blue. Viewsridge (talk) 11:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Option 1 has the best contrast for the arrows, but all of them are great improvements in presentation. If none of them were used, the original colorblind-friendly one is also an improvement by itself and could be the main one. Rauisuchian (talk) 13:42, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
No Peace
Ukraine has warned that if Mariupol falls, a red line will have been crossed and any further negotiations will cease (ie, the war will continue indefinitely). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 07:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- I cannot find any such story. Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
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