Talk:Mahmoud al-Mabhouh - Misplaced Pages

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A news item involving Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 18 February 2010.

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Recent move

Mabhouh isn't notable only for one event, though one event (his death) created a flurry of Misplaced Pages activity related to him. I think the article should be moved back to Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. At some point, a WP:SUMMARY and WP:SPINOUT regarding the topic of his death may be in order. Also, "murder" is not appropriate for the title; if he was deliberately killed, as the UAE police say he was, "assassination" would be the proper term. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree.--Gilisa (talk) 15:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Third. We've got articles on a lot less senior Palestinian leaders, and it's not like there isn't a decent amount of notable bio on this guy. Joshdboz (talk) 15:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is now neither a biography, or about a murder, it is just an unreadable mess. What little non-murder related content there was in it has now been bizarrly split between the lede and the main body, rather than being summarised in the lede and covered in detail in the body, and it is now even harder to make sense of the whole article than before I moved it. MickMacNee (talk) 19:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes it needs a lot of work - this is what happens when information comes out in drips (often contradictory) as over the past few weeks. Clearly it's heavily weighted towards the assassination. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it is one of the major factors of his notability (though certainly not the only one, as his considerable rap sheet indicates). It might be a good idea to spinout a specific article on the killing, but as stated above that doesn't mean we should sacrifice a bio. In any event, I appreciate you trying to bring some order to this mess; it's better to have this debate than no progress at all. Joshdboz (talk) 01:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

why it is said " he Murder solders" , " Murder is not like Political freedome fighting kill, for god sake , its occupated contry , if palestinian Civilian kill a solder then he is a Murderer , but if a Israel Solder kill a Palestinian Civilian then its a Self Deffenc as he was affraid from him lolololol damn age.

Mugshots of the suspects

The best pictures I could find are located at- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quilby (talk • contribs) 21:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This one also has their names- Quilby (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Do we know about the copyrights? They're all labeled as coming from the "Dubai Ruler's Media Office" whatever that is, via AP. The Google link to the AP story says "(AP Photo/Dubai Ruler's Media Office) EDITORIAL USE ONLY" which I think would make it legal to use noncommercially, but is still perhaps against Misplaced Pages policy. Then again, the chance of finding a replacement photo = 0. The media also seems to be making liberal use of the video provided by Dubai police. Joshdboz (talk) 01:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

At this time the information (as stated also in the article) suggests that the passports were falsified; thus the persons listed as suspects had their identity stolen and should not be named or shown.Ekem (talk) 05:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. It seems to me a violation of of wp:blp. Ann arbor street (talk) 17:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

While the names were aliases belonging to real people not involved in the assassination, the photos are of those suspected to be involved. If the photos can be added under fair use rationale, they should be. Check the Interpol website for more information . Tiamut 21:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Missing information

There are two things that are missing from all of the articles I have read covering this incident:

In the videos, you can see a second woman. Who is she and why has her name/photo not been published?
Where were the passport photos obtained from? Where they obtained from the hotels? Or from the airport? If from the airport, how come during their entrance, the Dubai authorities did not notice that the passports were fake?

If anyone finds this information it would be great! Quilby (talk) 22:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Answers #2- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/world/middleeast/17dubai.html?ref=middleeast . 17 people were involved.Quilby (talk) 22:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Given the subject matter, amazingly NPOV. Good job to all involved - your work is the sort of thing that makes Misplaced Pages worthwhile in spite of the inherent pit falls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.44.129 (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Assination / Murder ?

In some places in this article it mentions that he was assasinated, other places say he was murdered, I know technically it's complicated as there is a fine line between the two, but for the purpose of clarity shouldnt it be one all the way though? Personally I think assasinated would be better as it doesn't carry the negative connontations associated with murder, and if it was carried out by Mossad, then technically it wasn an assination, what are other peoples views? MattUK (talk) 23:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess it depends on context. Globally, everyone can agree that this was a targeted killing = assassination. That can have good or bad connotations depending on one's viewpoint. In the context of Dubai, it was clearly murder, though in Israel (if they did it) it is considered lawful, just as US drone attacks are permitted by presidential order. So I think assassination is preferred, but I don't think murder need be completely forbidden, especially in the context of the Dubai investigation. Joshdboz (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a thought: why don't you look up the definition of assassination on some reliable website e.g. Misplaced Pages.

--121.209.161.102 (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Dictionary.com, murder means to kill unlawfully, while assassinate means to kill or murder a prominent person suddenly. So both terms are fine. Assassinate is more neutral, though. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Could we get a reference for a statement from Dubai police?Mohamed Magdy (talk) 20:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Which statement? Tiamut 20:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether it's a :

The dictionary definition of Murder at Wiktionary. Or

The dictionary definition of Assassination at Wiktionary

As you see, there's a little bit of a controversy and a potential dispute about it being "assassination" or "murder". So, a clear statement from an official department would settle the situation down.Mohamed Magdy, Thank You! (talk) 20:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay here's two examples. The second is best since its a direct quote in which the chief uses the word murder to describe what happened.

Dubai Police on Friday said it has identified the suspected killers of a senior Hamas commander who was murdered in his hotel room last week. (Jan 29)

Mahmoud al Mabhouh was murdered within five hours of arriving in the country, the Dubai Police chief said yesterday ... "It is only logical to expect (Feb 1) Tiamut 21:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I like Jalapeno's reasoning. Assasination is murder. The should be interchangable. However, I'd agree there are potentially NPOV issues here. Perhaps we should avoid using "murder" in relation to the players involved (i.e. say "the Mossad assasinated" or "Israel assasinated" instead of "the Mossad murdered" or "Israel murdered"), but use it when refering to the incident in other contexts (i.e. "He was murdered in his hotel room...", "the murder took place...."). In doing so, we'd avoid using "murder" and "Israel" or "Mossad" in the same sentence, which would seem to mitigate the NPOV issue. NickCT (talk) 15:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Splitting the death section?

I suggest moving the death of Mabhouh part to a new article, as it has a lot of attention and much news. Besides, it has many aspects.Mohamed Magdy (talk) 09:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I second that. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. This guy only has an article about him because of his death. There isn't much else to say about him. 132.67.104.182 (talk) 11:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The article I suggested (and Jalapenos do exist seconded) is to be about the incident itself, its consequences, international reactions, ambassadors convoked, etc.Mohamed Magdy (talk) 11:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. Agreed, but we'll need to leave a substantial summary here. Joshdboz (talk) 14:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I have created Murder of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, but it requires your attention and improvement. Lot of resources could be found. PS I created the page before your post.Mohamed Magdy (talk) 14:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, should now the Death section be merged/moved to Assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh page? As editors are contributing to the section.Mohamed Magdy (talk) 20:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with moving what's here on his death to the new article, but there should be a summary paragraph here that links there to replace it. I volunteer to draft one and boldly substitute it for what's here, if there are no objections to the move. Of course, anyone can alter/add to/etc., once I'm done, if they find it to be unsatisfactory. Tiamut 20:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Go for it! Joshdboz (talk) 21:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay dokey, I'll give it a stab. But it may take a little time. Tiamut 21:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I have created a little bit of a summary, so as to be able to include the information below it into the other article. And of course, consider "melting" them together! (i.e they have kind of the same information but written in different ways)Mohamed Magdy, Thank You! (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll take a look. I've already made a first draft summary. Its time to move what was here before to the new article now. Shall I do that too? Tiamut 21:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

For sure! But just try to keep the article itself (Assassination one) and the content to be added in a symmetry. Consider Misplaced Pages:How to fix cut-and-paste moves it may be helpful (and well... may be not) I'm very exhausted atm, tomorrow or sometime I'm not that busy I'll contribute in it much more. Mohamed Magdy, Thank You! (talk) 21:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Death

Now that the main article Assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh is long and comprehensive, wouldn't it be logical to just reproduce here its lead section only? - BorisG (talk) 03:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Alleged previous attempts at assassination

Ronen Bergman has published an article in GQ as reported in The Register. Anyone happen to have a copy? SmartSE (talk) 14:46, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

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Why so much content discussing assassination/murder?

Since there is an entire article about the murder/assassination, why is it discussed at length here? If no one objects, I am shortening this section soon. DaringDonna (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2019

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove the following (It is too much detail for this page. There is already an entire Misplaced Pages article dedicated to the assassination. All this information I am requesting to remove is on the assassination page.)

He checked into the Al Bustan Rotana hotel on the afternoon of 19 January. He left the hotel about an hour after check-in, and there were conflicting reports as to what he did during the few hours before he was killed. At approximately 8:25 p.m. Al-Mabhouh went back to his room. He failed to answer a call from his wife a half-hour later.

Hotel CCTV surveillance footage released to the public shows the agents, who had arrived on separate flights, meeting in the hotel. While the men used encrypted personal communication devices among themselves to avoid surveillance, a number of telephone calls were made to a number in Austria. When al-Mabhouh arrived at around 3 pm, two of the agents on CCTV followed him to his room wearing tennis gear. They then checked into the room opposite al-Mabhouh's. At 8 pm al-Mabhouh left the hotel and while several of the suspects kept watch, two tried to gain entry to his room, but were disturbed when a tourist exited the nearby lift. While another agent distracted the tourist, the other four entered his hotel room using an advanced electronic device and waited for him to return. Hotel computer logs indicated that they successfully reprogrammed al-Mabhouh’s hotel door lock at this time.

Cause of death Initially, Dubai authorities believed al-Mabhouh had died of natural causes. Results from a preliminary forensic report by the Dubai police found that al-Mabhouh was first paralyzed by an injection of succinylcholine (suxamethonium), a fast-acting muscle relaxant. He was then electrocuted and suffocated with a pillow. though their police investigation and final report on the matter would not be ready until the beginning of March. Signs strongly indicated that al-Mabhouh attempted to resist as he was being killed. The paralysis induced by this drug applies only to muscles – the victim remains conscious. Dubai authorities stated they were ruling the death a homicide and were working with the International Criminal Police Organization (Interpol) to investigate the incident.

Suspects Lieutenant general Dhahi Khalfan Tamim, Chief of the Dubai Police Force, announced on 18 February 2010 that, "Our investigations reveal that Mossad was definitely involved in the murder of al-Mabhouh ... It is 99% if not 100% that Mossad is standing behind the murder." Dubai police said the killers spent little time in the country, arriving less than a day before the murder, killing al-Mabhouh between his arrival at 3:15 p.m. and 9 p.m. that night, and leaving the country before the discovery of the murder.

The Israeli government initially denied and did not comment on claims that it was involved in Al-Mabhouh's death. On 17 February, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman refused to confirm or deny any Israeli involvement, citing Israel's "policy of ambiguity" on such matters, and claimed a lack of evidence for Israeli intelligence involvement. Lieberman even declared that the press "watch too many James Bond movies". Later, Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said "there is nothing linking Israel to the assassination." However, Israeli media and public opinion have generally accepted Mossad's responsibility for the operation.

The identities used by eleven of the agents have been publicly identified, based on passports that the Dubai police said were not forgeries, though both the British and Irish governments said the passports bearing their countries' names were "either fraudulently obtained or outright fakes." The total number of suspects stands at eighteen, all of whom entered the country using fake or fraudulently obtained passports. Passports used by the killers were from the United Kingdom (6), Republic of Ireland (5), Australia (3), France (1 – suspected of being the hit squad leader and logistical coordinator), and Germany (1).

The names used on the six UK passports and the German passport belong to individuals who live in Israel and hold dual citizenships.

The photographs of eleven of the operatives were added to Interpol's most wanted list on 18 February, with a note specifying that they had been published since the identities used by the agents were fake. Dubai security officials carried out routine retinal scans on eleven of the suspects sought in the assassination when they entered the country and Dubai police said they would publish the scans through Interpol.

Two Palestinians, Ahmad Hasnin, an intelligence officer of the Fatah-controlled Palestinian Authority (PA), and Anwar Shekhaiber, an PA official in Ramallah, were arrested in Jordan and handed over to Dubai, suspected of giving logistical and intelligence assistance. Hamas said the two were former Fatah security officials who both worked at a construction company in Dubai owned by Mohammed Dahlan, another senior Fatah security official, and that they rented cars and hotel rooms for members of the Mossad hit team alleged to have carried out the killing. Dahlan and Fatah denied the charges. Ahmad Hasnin came to the UAE in 2008, according to a family source.

On 19 February, Dubai police chief Dahi Khalfan Tamim called for Interpol to issue a Interpol red notice to approve the arrest of Israeli Mossad chief Meir Dagan, causing the Israeli government to deny he has enough proof.

Mossad agent arrested In early June 2010, German prosecutors announced that at Germany's request Polish authorities had arrested a suspected Mossad agent thought to have played a role in the Dubai assassination of a high ranking Hamas leader

"He was arrested in Warsaw and is suspected of being involved in illegally obtaining a passport," a spokesman for German federal prosecution said, confirming a report in the German magazine Der Spiegel.

Western government reactions In the wake of the revelation that passports of British citizens had figured prominently in the operation, the United Kingdom's Serious Organised Crime Agency launched its own investigation into the matter. The British Foreign Office also summoned the Israeli ambassador on February 18 to share information on the matter. The Daily Mail cited a previously reliable "British security source" as stating that Mossad had tipped off the UK that their passports would be used for an operation, but this was denied by the UK government.

Britain's Foreign Office believes that the passports used were fraudulent; one report indicated that they had issued the passports in January 2010, the only difference between the actual identities being the photographs.

Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs declared that eight supposedly Irish passports used by the suspects were forged. On 15 June, following an extensive investigation, the Department of Foreign Affairs came to "the inescapable conclusion that an Israeli government agency was responsible for the misuse and, most likely, the manufacture of the forged Irish passports associated with the murder of Mr. Mabhouh." The government's immediate diplomatic reaction was that "Israel be requested to withdraw a designated member of staff of its Embassy in Dublin."

According to a spokesman of the French Foreign Affairs ministry, the French passport was counterfeit. The Israeli chargé d'affaires in Paris was summoned on 18 February and the French Foreign Ministry issued a statement expressing, "deep concern about the malicious and fraudulent use of these French administrative documents."

German officials said that the passport number which they received from the authorities in Dubai is either incomplete or does not exist. In June 2010, Polish authorities arrested a suspect in connection with the case. Germany has sought his extradition over the alleged misuse of its passports.

After learning of the alleged use of Australian passports by Mossad, the Australian Foreign Minister, Stephen Smith, publicly summoned the Israeli ambassador to Australia, Yuval Rotem. Smith told the ambassador that if Israel was responsible for the passport forgeries that "Australia would not regard that as the act of a friend." Soon after this occurred, Australia, who is usually a strong supporter of Israel at the United Nations, abstained on a UN motion to investigate Israeli war crimes committed during the Gaza War, a motion that Australia had previously opposed. In the Australian press there was widespread speculation that the move was retaliation for the passport affair.

Australian and British investigators came to Israel to investigate the case. In May 2010, after receiving the final results of the investigation, foreign minister, Stephen Smith told Federal Parliament that the Australian government was in no doubt that Israel was responsible for the abuse and counterfeiting of passports. Australia ceased co-operation with Israeli intelligence and expelled Israeli diplomat Eli Elkoubi. In June, The Canberra Times revealed that Elkoubi was an officer of Mossad leading Israeli diplomats to complain that the disclosure was a further act of retaliation.

American refusal to cooperate with investigation After al-Mabhouh's death the United Arab Emirates requested that the U.S. assist it in tracking down "cardholder details and related information for credit cards reportedly issued by a U.S. bank to several suspects." The U.S. denied receiving the request. A cable sent from the U.S. consulate in Dubai, released by WikiLeaks, however, showed that the U.S. declined the UAE request. DaringDonna (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:09, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Barely Sociable Lake City Quiet Pills video

Wondering if there's been any other things other than (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF0dCNxfYHk&ab_channel=BarelySociable) to tie Mahmoud's assasination to the Lake City Quiet Pills mystery. Fresheneesz (talk) 22:24, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Categories:

Recent move

Mugshots of the suspects

Missing information

Assination / Murder ?

Splitting the death section?

Death

Alleged previous attempts at assassination

External links modified

External links modified

External links modified

External links modified

Why so much content discussing assassination/murder?

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2019

See also - please add

Barely Sociable Lake City Quiet Pills video