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Talk:Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) at 07:12, 25 April 2022 (→Requested move 22 April 2022: I think that renaming this article would be in our best interests.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 07:12, 25 April 2022 by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) (→Requested move 22 April 2022: I think that renaming this article would be in our best interests.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Horlivka offensive was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 4 April 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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On 3 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Northeastern Ukraine offensive. The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nominator.

Source collection dump

Please add sources to this list so we can build up this article. We created this way too late so a lot of sources have been lost in the furor. Curbon7 (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

  • Chernihiv Oblast (not Chernihiv though):
  • Donetsk Oblast:
  • Kharkiv Oblast:
  • Luhansk Oblast:
  • Sumy Oblast:
Added some content (and sources) to this article (too lazy to put them all here). Seantseng918 (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Thanks! Yeah this is just a list to toss-in source that need to be added in. Obv if the sources are already in the article, then it's fine lol Curbon7 (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Improve image in infobox

The image on the infobox show only from Konotop to Sumy, Kharkiv is not visible, and it is a static image. Can someone replace it with a crop of the map of the whole invasion that shows the whole offensive. Ridanbp (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator. after seven days have passed. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 13:19, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Northeastern Ukraine offensive – To distinguish it from the offensive in Donbass and the Kherson offensive.Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Can you please provide a list of sources that separate it by calling it a northeastern offensive or similar term like axis/campiagn? We shouldn't change it just because of geography. Advances in Donbass are already mentioned here. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Sources? It's an evolving situation. Where were the sources for "Eastern" when ity was created? Let's be practical here. The operation in Donbass is completely different to what is happening near Kharkiv. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
We don't make up names here. What is your proof that it is different? Or has a different objective? AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Where was the proof that it was "Eastern" at the time of creation? Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. ISW recently changed its terminology from "Northeast front" to "Kharkiv" The Chernihiv and Konotop/Sumy axes are now treated as subsidiary to the main Kyiv effort. Mariupol and Kherson are the two remaining "efforts" that ISW is using. Regardless, Donbass efforts are basically unconnected to Kharkiv right now, and really should at least be in their own section and not intermixed with Kharkiv to avoid confusing readers who aren't familiar with the geography of the country. - Featous (talk) 02:49, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose similar reason with Michael z above. also keep in mind this is an ongoing conflict, so i think its best to keep the most conservative definition and not jump the conclusion yet (talk) 03:00, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of Kharkiv

To which theatre of war does this battle belong? To the Eastern Ukraine offensive or the Northeastern Ukraine offensive? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Northeastern Ukraine offensive. —Michael Z. 20:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree. Being that the offensive in Sumy and Chernihiv (Northeast Ukraine) has ended, its more useful to think of Kharkiv as part of the Eastern Ukraine offenseive now. Wolf359Locutus (talk) 05:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Eastern Ukraine offensive be renamed and moved to Southeastern Ukraine offensive.

result:
No consensus. Closure requested – <permalink>. See no agreement below to rename this article to the proposed title. No prejudice to begin a new RM for the "Donbas" usage. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can discover new arguments, strengthen old ones and try again to garner consensus in a few months for this name change. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed.  18:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Move logs: current title · target title This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}
Result:
No consensus. Closure requested – <permalink>. See no agreement below to rename this article to the proposed title. No prejudice to begin a new RM for the "Donbas" usage. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can discover new arguments, strengthen old ones and try again to garner consensus in a few months for this name change. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed.  18:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Southeastern Ukraine offensive While this article covers only the military operations in the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts in southeastern Ukraine, this article is titled "Eastern Ukraine offensive." This can confuse our readers into thinking that the article covers offensive operations in both the northeastern and southeastern Ukraine regions, when this is clearly not the case. This article used to cover military operations in both northeastern and southeastern Ukraine. However, ever since content in this article pertaining to northeastern Ukraine was split off into Northeastern Ukraine offensive, the title for this article has not been updated accordingly to reflect the changes. Since we already have an article titled Northeastern Ukraine offensive, I propose moving this article to Southeastern Ukraine offensive, per WP:PRECISE. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment: I am also fine with supporting a renaming to Donbas offensive (2022), but the current article title is unacceptably vague, as any reader can easily be misled into thinking that the article covers ALL of eastern Ukraine when the fact is that it merely covers the two Donbass oblasts. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 03:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
  • While I concur that a page move is the best choice of action, I think Donbas offensive would be the preferred target. The Donbas and southeast Ukraine are basically the same thing, and like this it removes any possible confusion regarding the application of southeast Ukraine to other areas. Markedly referring to it as the Donbas makes it clear that this is referring only to action in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. Reliable sources have also been referring to this as the Donbas offensive ( ), so I think it makes more sense. Curbon7 (talk) 12:02, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose  Everyone’s been reading about the Donbas war “in eastern Ukraine” for eight years. I don’t see any confusion at all in “eastern” referring to the east and “northeastern” referring to the northeast. “Donbas” might be acceptable, but is it wise to pick a name restricted to the borders of the two Donbas oblasts? —Michael Z. 21:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
    And, I’m sorry, then do we rename the Southern Ukraine offensive to avoid “vagueness and confusion,” or what? The argument to rename is devoid of logic. —Michael Z. 23:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
    They were reading it this way because there was no war in Kharkiv, which is also eastern Ukraine. And now, as there is also war in Kharkiv, and it is descibed in another article, such a notation became ambiguous. I would rather prefer "Donbas offensive" to "Southeastern Ukraine offensive", but anyway both are much better than "Eastern Ukraine offensive". Wikisaurus (talk) 11:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per Laurel Lodged's comment. Fijipedia (talk) 23:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support to distinguish it from Kharkiv. Donbas offensive (2022) is even better. Wikisaurus (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Query How is it a fractionation? The entirely of the territory in the current scope will remain, just under a new name. It's not being split. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Crimean Tatars are also in this war, someone please add them

Crimean Tatars are also in this war, someone please add them Nizamcı (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Nizamcı, please provide a reliable source. Curbon7 (talk) 09:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Merger Kharkiv with Eastern Ukraine Offensive?

Looking at the Ukraine war map (areas of focus), it makes more sense to connect Kharkiv (currently part of the Northeastern Ukraine offensive article) to the Eastern Ukraine offensive. Also some units, for example the 20th Guards Combined Arms Army, are active in both Kharkiv and the Donbass. As of now, nothing with the Kharkiv battles has anything to do with main focus areas in Northeastern Ukraine (Sumy and Chernihiv). Thoughts? KajMetz (talk) 21:25, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, true, they should merge the battles in the Kharkiv oblast with the Eastern Ukraine offensive. SavageBWiki (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Merge parts of Northeastern offensive into this?

I raised on Northeastern offensive talk page a question whether parts of it should be merged with this article: Talk:Northeastern Ukraine offensive#Merge Northeastern offensive into Kyiv and Eastern offensives?.--Staberinde (talk) 08:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 22 April 2022

It has been proposed in this section that Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine be renamed and moved to Donbas offensive (2022).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Donbas offensive (2022) – The offensive occured in Donbas only so it is more precise. Panam2014 (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Question/oppose Apart from the comment that there may be some overflow (per Applodion), what evidence is there as to WP:COMMONNAME for either proposition? We are only free to make up a name if no common name exists. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:17, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cinderella157 and Applodion: we should update the infobox because it covers only Luhansk and Donetsk. Panam2014 (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@BilledMammal: The articles you cited are talking about the Battle of Donbas (2022) which is a sub-operation of this larger campaign. Thus, "Battle of Donbas (2022)" should be renamed, not this article. Applodion (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Good point; switch to Oppose. BilledMammal (talk) 13:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@BilledMammal and Applodion: in that case we must add Kharkiv oblast to the location. Panam2014 (talk) 15:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
@Panam2014: Thanks for pointing this out; I had not even noticed that only two oblasts were mentioned in the infobox. Admittedly, there is some overlap with the Northeastern Ukraine offensive, but ISW - one of the most important academic sources on the war - categorize Kharkiv as part of the eastern campaign. Applodion (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I have adjusted the Battle of Kharkiv (2022) article as well; the latter now says that it was part of both the northeastern and eastern offensive. IMO, that is probably the best we can do until experts actually publish other views or we learn more details about the Russian planning. Applodion (talk) 16:34, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Support. Super Ψ Dro 17:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I also Support a merger of the two articles, as the April 2022 Donbas offensive is merely a continuation of this offensive. Also, neither article is anywhere near the readable prose size limit, and even if merged, a combined article still wouldn't get there, so there's no need for a content fork here. If, however, the two articles remain separate, then I think that the new article should continue using the title Battle of Donbas (2022), as that is a name that is actually used by media outlets, and since we have used "battle" to name articles on large military offensives, such as Battle of Manbij (2016), Battle of France, Battle of Britain, and Battle of Kiev (1941). LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 07:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support – Unless we merge the Kharkiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast operations into this article, this article focuses exclusively on the military operations in the two Donbas Oblasts. It makes absolutely no sense to call this the "Eastern Ukraine offensive" when the article covers only two oblasts in southeastern Ukraine. Per WP:PRECISE, we should use the most accurate, concise title as possible. "Eastern Ukraine offensive" gives users the impression that this article covers offensive operations around the Kharkiv and Chernihiv regions when that's simply not true, which can be confusing. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 07:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
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