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New infobox proposal
@Smerus: I stumbled across the page today and was surprised at the changes to the infobox (I was not active on political wikis back in 2017). I looked at the page history and I thought I'd chime in with a proposal to, as the outcome of the original talk page determined, have his political offices offset by his primary notability of being a television host and historian. And I think a collapsed module, per Winston Churchill's page, appearing beneath personal details, per Justin Welby's page, would look very neat and very much to the taste of my politically inclined friends on the wiki as well as you and your friends too. This was not an option discussed in the original forum and I think it might be ideal. Thoughts? Alex (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is my proposed infobox layout. Due to technical restrictions, I had to remove the website since for some reason it appeared beneath the collapsed offices but this can be moved to the External links section of the article. Alex (talk) 01:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for this sensible proposal. It's OK by me; what do others think?--Smerus (talk) 06:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I like it, thank you, Alex. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I like it except for having the shadow chancellor post expanded: can that be collapsed into another box (Shadow offices?). Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jonathan A Jones: Absolutely, I hope you like this new version (I also shortened Conservative Party (UK) to Conservative per the lead) and I'll upload that one to the page and if anyone else has any comments, we can go back to to the talk page. Alex (talk) 19:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks! I would put "shadow cabinet" between "ministerial" and "parliamentary", but otherwise looks good to me. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jonathan A Jones: Done, since there was no objection. Alex (talk) 13:58, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- His primary notable is as a politician. That is just absurd.--86.144.191.234 (talk) 22:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Not sure why the politics had to be removed from infobox. He may have been out of politics for years, but his political career is probably what he's most well known for.73.110.217.186 (talk) 05:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- The political offices are still there in the collapsed infobox tabs. Please familiarise yourself with the consensus before making a new proposal and stop your disruptive editing or you risk being blocked. Alex (talk) 22:46, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
The Rt. Hon.
Given that all other Privy Councilors have the Rt. Hon. in their infobox (see for examples Richard Aikens, Tony Baldry, and Wyatt Creech, to name a few), is there much of a reason why this article should be singled out as not having it? 73.110.217.186 (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- There was extensive debate about the present infobox before it reached its present format, and that format represents a consensus. What happens in other articles is not a reason for changing this one. See WP:WHATABOUT. Nor do I (or you) have any evidence in any case that "all other Privy Councillors have Rt. Hon. in their infobox." As there have been many thousands of PCs over the centuries, you might find that checking this claim is rather burdensome. The article is not 'singled out' by not having it; what you should seek to demonstrate (if you could) is in what way it would improve the article for WP users if it were present. As MP's membership of the Privy Council is not a major part of his life or raison d'etre these days, a stronger case imo could be made for omitting it - as you may not have considered that users of WP on (e.g.) mobile phones may find the infobox taking up their entire screen, and the largely irrelevant fact that MP is a PC will then occupy an inordinately disproportionate amonut of the information presented. Have a look at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE - "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." --Smerus (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the old debate, someone pointed out that its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership, which is not true. Furthermore, if such styling is not appropriate in the infobox, then a lot of articles would need to be changed, so it doesn’t make such sense just to leave it at one being changed and leaving all the rest. Perhaps this would require a something to be decided among what the standard format for such figures is. 4.71.249.245 (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- While I have been supportive of the general move towards a simpler infobox I tend to agree with this proposed addition. Portillo remains a member of the Privy Council, and this is not simply irrelevant. As a small sample I have checked the first 27 names at List of current members of the British Privy Council (all those starting with "A") and 25 have The Right Honourable in their infobox, the sole exceptions being Sarah Asplin, who does not have an infobox, and Michael Ancram, who gained the superior title of The Most Honourable when he succeeded as the Marquess of Lothian. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, what happens in other articles is not an argument for what should happen here, WP:WHATABOUT. Were I interested in the other articles and not in possession of a real life, I would raise objections there where appropriate. The point to be considered here is in what way this title could be considered a 'key fact' as per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I invite editors to read this MOS guidance. The argument that "its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership" is simply unfounded, as it assumes without any justification that those looking at the infobox would have been aware of it in the first place. His membership of the PC is mentioned in the article amongst 'honours', together with the fact that he is a Freeman of the City of London, an FRSGS, and has an honorary doctorate at American university; readers are apparently able to survive without this other info being in the infobox either. Being a member of the PC is simply not a 'key' element of MP's life. It's mentioned once in the article, and no event of his life in the article refers to it or is connected with it. --Smerus (talk) 12:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the "its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership", the poster who brought it up in the old discussion specifically compared it to Jonathan Aitken and Chris Huhne, both of whom resigned their privy council membership.73.110.217.186 (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- You have said that very clearly, and I understood your position perfectly well when I made my comment. Other editors might or might not not share your view. But there's no need to repeat it. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- I was in fact replying to 4.71.249.245 who apparently had not read my earlier contribution. Best, --Smerus (talk) 16:24, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, the other figures mentioned by the other post mostly have The Rt. Hon. listed in their infobox, with the noted exceptions having nothing to do with its notability. Once could argue that for people like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, their membership in the privy council isn't key information, yet they still have the Rt. Hon. listed in their infobox. 73.110.217.186 (talk) 06:08, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Smerus: I actually support inclusion on the basis that I, when looking at the infobox, thought that he might have resigned from the Privy Council like John Prescott had done. So I think it's relevant so as not to confuse people. Also, with what we've done previously to the infobox, the politics information is still less prevalent than before so this shouldn't violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Alex (talk) 20:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Incorrect reversion
I may be missing something obvious, but can I ask why you made this revert at Michael Portillo? The IP's edits just converted redirects to direct wikilinks, and I couldn't see anything wrong with them. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out; apologies, I was asleep at the wheel. I have re-reverted.--Smerus (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Annington Homes
@Smerus: Can I ask you to elaborate on your somewhat gnomic edit summary here? I'd argue that generally the parties in any transaction are relevant to a discussion of that transaction; that something is sold often doesn't mean much without specifying to whom it was sold. In this case the "to whom" is the focus of the extensive coverage in reliable sources that exists, and, as I argued in my own edit summary, linking to the Annington Homes article, which contains more extensive discussion of the matter, provides a useful service to the reader. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 13:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Arms & Hearts. There is no cited evidence that Portillo was "a party to this transaction". He was Sec of State at the time but we do not know what (if any) was his involvement in this matter. The event itself is arguably of encyclopedic interest, and as you say is covered in the article Annington Homes. But it would be WP:UNDUE to go into it in any detail in the present article unless you have cites that show Portillo was in some way involved in it.--Smerus (talk) 21:07, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies for the delay in getting back to you Smerus. I'm a bit puzzled by your reply – if I didn't think there was a clear connection to Portillo then I'd conclude that the content didn't belong in the article at all, rather than taking exception to that specific link. But to answer your question, there's a multitude of reliable sources making the connection clear:
- The Guardian, 25 April 2017 (cited in the article) quotes notes to Portillo about the deal by civil servants
- The Guardian, 27 January 2022 (also cited in the article) says "In 1996, under the defence secretary Michael Portillo, the Conservative government sold 57,400 houses used by military service men and women and their families to Annington Homes"
- The Times, 30 January 2022 mentions "a portfolio of 57,400 military properties sold off by then-defence secretary Michael Portillo in 1996."
- The Times, 11 February 2022 has "Michael Portillo, the defence secretary, pressed ahead, signing off a £1.6 billion sale and leaseback agreement with Annington"
- FT, 27 January 2022 says "The deal was struck by the then defence secretary, Michael Portillo"; echoed in FT, 2 February 2022, which tells us "the 1996 agreement struck by then defence secretary Michael Portillo"
- This list could probably be a lot longer; there doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt that Portillo was directly involved. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:31, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Absence of 'reason to doubt' on the part of one editor is not quite the same as proof. (Indeed it is borderline WP:OR). The 2017 citation mentions that someone sent Portillo a note that an unnamed person wanted to have a conversation with him. I cannot see that this proves anything. The 2022 Guardian quote confirms that the deal was done while he was Defence Secretary. I don't have access to the other quotes. It is debatable whether the language they use means that he was personally motivated to advance the deal or whether he signed off on the advice he received. 'Direct involvement' has a suggestion of initiation or advancement, rather than passive signing of paperwork. There does not seem to be any suggestion that Portillo acted against advice at the time. You should bear WP:BLP in mind. In my opinion, to note this episode as part of Portillo's record is correct, but to go into it in detail in this article is WP:UNDUE. I should be interested in comments of other editors.--Smerus (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- I take the view that either the link should be included to provide minimal context or the whole sentence should be removed.I really can't see any reason for including it in its current form. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:54, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- Absence of doubt is indeed not proof; attestation in six reliable sources published over five years is pretty good going though. Whether
he was personally motivated to advance the deal or whether he signed off on the advice he received
doesn't strike me as at all relevant; nor does the possibility that Portillo acted against advice at the time
, which as far as I'm aware no one but you has raised. But this is getting away from my primary point above: why, if you have doubts about the relevance of the content to the article, does that lead you to conclude that the material belongs in the article but on the proviso three words and one link are removed? That's what I continue to be baffled by. (If you want I can send you the contents of the Times and FT articles, or could point you to a handy browser extension...) – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- It may not strike you as relevant whether or not Portillo was personally motivated, but you are up here against the rules of Misplaced Pages. WP is not your personal blog. You can't under WP:BLP use material that is unsourced. You also have to ensure that material is relevant and not WP:UNDUE for an article. The citations you present seem either ambiguous on the level of MP's personal involvment, or irrelevant. If you had concrete and citeable third-party evidence that MP was personally motivated, you might want to include such comment and citation in the article, although WP advises that potentially libellous material should not be included. If he was not motivated, then any detail is undoubtedly WP:UNDUE - not least because it carries superficially some implication that he was. --Smerus (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'll give this one more go: why, if you have doubts about the relevance of the content to the article, does that lead you to conclude that the material belongs in the article but on the proviso three words and one link are removed? Having an RfC over those three words feels like overkill, but that's where we're heading if you continue to refuse to answer simple questions. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Your allegation that "I refuse to answer simple questions" is extremely unpleasant to me and contrary to WP:AGF. I don't particularly feel this matter belongs in the article. It is about something which happened on Portillo's watch (as did countless other things during his tenure); but he does not seem to have been personally involved in proposing or driving it. None of the citations you mention suggest this; and, once again, I refer you to WP:BLP. My conclusion is that this affair is very tenuously part of Portillo's story and therefore it could be held to merit mention in the article. On those grounds I have not sought to remove it. The only other editor commenting in this thread appears to share my opinion. It is of course up to you whether you take this to RfC. There seems little point in continuing the present thread.--Smerus (talk) 08:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- My order of preference here is (1) complete removal followed by (2) inclusion with the link; the current (3) inclusion without the link strikes me as just silly. So I'm going to boldly remove the whole thing for now. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies again for the delay. I appreciate the clarification that you no longer think the material belongs in the article – a certain amount of confusion could, I think, have been avoided if you'd made that clear to begin with and/or edited to that effect, but that's by the by. I'll open the RfC in a moment. As I'm only able to edit intermittently at the moment, I'll add that if anyone has anyone issues with the wording of the statement they should feel free to make any changes themselves. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:50, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
RfC: Ministry of Defence housing sale
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Should this article discuss the 1996 sale of the Ministry of Defence's housing stock, and if so, in what form?
- Option A: the article shouldn't mention the sale.
- Option B: the article should mention the sale without specifying to whom the homes were sold, as in this edit.
- Option C: the article should mention the sale and specify that the homes were sold to Annington Homes, as in this edit.
– Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option C (second choice B): The fact that Portillo was directly involved in the sale of MoD housing is supported by multiple reliable sources (linked above) published over the course of several years. The sources are clear that he oversaw, enacted and took responsibility for the policy. This is the principle of individual ministerial responsibility, but it’s also the common-sense conclusion that anyone would arrive at from a disinterested reading of the sources. The arguments made above for not including this material, which ask us to disregard these unimpeachably reliable sources as
ambiguous on the level of ’s personal involvment , or irrelevant
, are very far from convincing. The claims in the sources are, on the contrary, both entirely unambiguous and abundantly clear on Portillo’s involvement: the Financial Times, for example, bluntly tells us that "The deal was struck by the then defence secretary, Michael Portillo", and this is one of many making broadly the same assertion. That numerous high-quality reliable sources reported on that involvement 20+ years after the fact also attests very strongly to its relevance to this article. Finally, if the sale is discussed in the article it’s useful to the reader to include a link to Annington Homes, because describing a sale without specifying the buyer unnecessarily leaves out useful information, and the linked article contains more detail on the subject which may be of interest to the reader. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option A (second choice B). It is not at all evident to me that "the sources are clear that oversaw, enacted and took responsibility for the policy." Nor, for that matter, does it seem to me that the opinions or insinuations of journalists must be automatically be held to be "unimpeachable". Of course Portillo must take responsibility as the minister who signed off the decision, as he must for every decision he signed off during his tenure. In that sense, the "deal was struck by him" - but that does not mean that it was his idea or proposal, or that he took particular steps to drive it. We have no reason or evidence to suppose that he was not simply acting on the advice of his civil servants - which in Britain is the way in which most ministerial 'decisions' are taken; nor do we have any evidence that his civil servants were opposed to, or advised against, this decision, for that matter. The decision was certainly in retrospect a bad one - but we have no evidence to suggest that it was a consequence of Portillo himself. I am therefore not of the opinion that it serves any purpose to cover it in detail in the article. As regards the "numerous high-quality reliable sources report on that involvement 20+ years after the fact" - the original Guardian article of 2017 which analyzes the deal in detail does not even mention Portillo's name. To give this topic prominence in the article on Portillo by covering it in detail is imo WP:UNDUE, has more than a suggestion WP:COATRACKing, and would be against the policies of WP:BLP, in suggesting or implying an action or initiative on the part of the subject which is not reliably (or even unreliably) evidenced. I edited Arms & Hearts's original edit as per his Option B above, leaving one of the newspaper references as a citation. Another editor subsequently removed the entire topic (Option A). I think there is a marginal argument for Option B, but I am not unhappy with Option A. I think option C is quite inappropriate for the reasons I give above.--Smerus (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option A (second choice C). I do not think the information belongs in the article, by the arguments of Smerus. But if we do incude it then it seems frankly bizarre not to enable the reader to gain relevant context by reading the slightly more detailed treatment at Annington Homes as suggested by Arms & Hearts. Either the information belongs here or it doesn't. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:49, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option A (second choice C) I'm not overfond of either Portillo or of "selling off the family silver", in general … BUT sources don't seem to draw attention to Portillo's involvement, merely mention in passing, so I agree with Smerus that this is probably UNDUE and borderline COATRACK. I also agree with Jonathan A Jones, that if there is going to be mention at all, then include the link to the property company, but really this isn't sufficiently important to be on this 'biog' article. Pincrete (talk) 13:12, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option B (second choice C) It would seem to me that the sale of such a large amount of public housing stock being overseen by his ministry, is relevant enough to him and his career, to be included. I don't see how the buyer is relevant to the subject of the article. At least not without some sort of non-commercial link between the buyer and seller, which there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of. Levelledout (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
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Portillo in 2017