Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by GordonWatts (talk | contribs) at 14:15, 16 February 2007 (Thank you). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

04/18/2005

This is a good start. It seems slightly verbose, but we can all address that later. I'd like to seem some mention of Pres. Bush's snap trip back to Washington to sign the Palm Sunday Compromise. This was later characterized as very partisian by many folks when compared to the administration's handling of the Red Lake High School massacre. It may give the reader a better understanding of the political atmosphere that surrounded the issues.--ghost 16:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Change of Ms. Schiavo to Schiavo

I disagree with these changes in the strongest possible terms. I will wait a short period to change the article to allow others the oppurtunity to revert it on their own. See my explanations on User talk:Professor Ninja. See also the Ms/Mrs. entries on Talk:Terri Schiavo. --ghost 05:57, 19 Apr 20e05 (UTC)

I'd like to bring this article into line with FuelWagon's recent edit of the Terri Schiavo page. Comments, questions?--ghost 20:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Done. Switched to informal. Switched some of the "Mrs. Schiavo's parents" references to "the Schindlers".--ghost 04:07, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judge Greer's Jurisdiction

I removed/edited some of the following:

• Republican leaders in the House of Representatives, including Dennis Hastert of Illinois, Tom DeLay of Texas and Tom Davis of Virginia, opened a congressional inquiry of the House Government Reform Committee, which was to take place in Clearwater on March 25, and issued subpoenas for Terri and Michael Schiavo and several hospice workers. Because of her condition, Schiavo obviously would not have been able to testify; however, the subpoena gave her federal protection as a prospective witness, as it is a federal crime to prevent a person from testifying before Congress. Greer struck the subpoenas down as unconstitutional, although as a state judge, he did not have the legal authority to strike down congressional actions. Congress, however, did not appeal or assert it's authority to issue the subpoenas.

The last section may be POV, since I could find not backing of Judge Greer's authority in the matter. Since it was upheld, does it matter?--ghost 17:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I find the comment on Congressional inaction interesting. If they subpoenaed her, to a hearing I suppose, what happened to the hearing? I was wondering if they would be "allowed" to put a glass of water at the witness table. The only thing that matters to me is whether your statement is factual or not. If it is correct (not a misunderstanding on your part), then it's fine with me, and actually I would like to know more about the balance of power among the branches. Martin | talk • contribs 03:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved Advocacy and Commentary section

My compliments to Viriditas and GordonWattsDotCom for the recent work. The page is improved for it. One minor problem is the overall tone if the following:

Advocacy and commentary

• Official website of Terri Schiavo's family
• Blogs For Terri
• Abstract Appeal legal blog (commentary on Schiavo case, supporting the courts' actions)
• "U.S. Supreme Court Protects Liberty In Schiavo Case." ACLU Online, March 24, 2005 (commentary supporting courts' actions)
• "Analysis of “Terri’s Law:” Is constitutional?" The Register, October 31, 2003 , (commentary opposing courts' actions)
• MELONE, MARY JO, "Passion invested in Terri's Law must somehow give way to reason." St. Pete Times, September 27, 2004 (commentary opposing Terri's Law)
• Smith, Wesley J., "Terri Schiavo's Plight: A Case Study in Judicial Bias." Life News, Originally published January 30, 2004 (commentary opposing courts' actions)

I'm concerned that the overall effect of these links presents a POV. My first thought was to add other POV links; then I thought we could yank 1/2 of it; I decided it was better move it here. This sub-article should focus presenting the legal and political issues behind the case. Not argueing them.--ghost 03:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I saw your move, and my old computer's Internet Explorer window finally unfroze, and allowed me to respond. first, we note that "advocacy and commentary" is a theme in all the sources sections, so this section is not more "legal" than the next, or even if it is, it needs & deserves Advocacy & Commentary.

Secondly, your concerns are valid; I think I achieved NPOV, but I don't exactly recall, so let me pull the full data base -and we can analyze it. OK, here we go: The other links in the section were omitted by you, and the whole section stands as a unit. Here are the missing links:

Articles

• "House GOP files Supreme Court brief on Schiavo." Washington Times, March 23, 2005
• LEVESQUE WILLIAM R., "Court strikes down Terri's Law." St. Pete Times, September 24, 2004
• Cunningham, Laurie, "Fla. Supreme Court Declares 'Terri's Law' Unconstitutional." Daily Business Review (Law.com), September 24, 2004
• Florida court strikes down 'Terri's Law'. CNN, September 23, 2004

Legal documents

• Florida Supreme Court compilation of briefs in "Terri's Law" case

OK, let me post this, and then I will look at your concerns logically and mathematically -and with the open mind that I could be wrong or accidentally POV. By the way, thank you for your positive feedback, Ghost, on our contributions.--GordonWattsDotCom 03:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• OK, now that I have two windows open -and can look at what I posted here goes: First, I will assume for the moment that advocacy and commentary is needed for Terri's Law, but I won't defend that point "at this point," and leave it for part 2. Now, looking at the numbers "as a whole," here's what we've got: (Judges, get the score cards.)

(For the sake of simplicity, I will assume ALL parties are "pro" Terri, even those that didn't want to feed her; but, in this context, "Pro" shall mean "Pro FEEDING Terri," OK?)

Terri's family's site=PRO; Blogs for Terri=PRO; Abstract Appeal's comments, where he first answers a reader -and when he was interviewed by the Times, both place him as ANTI, but he is neutral on a good many other subject not related to the courts' decisions, like whether or not mike beat his wife; The ACLU piece is ANTI; The Register piece (one piece at two mirrors) is PRO; Mary Jo Melone is clearly ANTI!! Wes Smith is PRO. The news articles that I posted to the page, and then reposted here are all neutral, and thus I shouldn't have needed to post them. Whoops! 4-3, not equal numbers.

Ok, let's count the votes: Pro opinion pieces are: four in number. Anti pieces are: three in number. Oops! There is slight POV problems, but I recommend adding one more link to an article with an anti point of view. Using Google.com, that should not be too hard. To delete any of the opinion pieces would be sin, as they are all high quality. Also, I now make my argument to keep advocacy and commentary: The reader should not be cheated on this page, because of internal personal feelings. If all the pieces are indeed quality (and I think they are), then they should be available for review for the reader. The Register piece is especially detailed, probably more lengthy and detailed analysis than any other piece, pro or con, and I am told that it has received lots of positive feedback, but in praising this one piece, do you sense any conflict of interest. Also, would any conflict of interest necessarily be a good excuse to deprive the reader of these scholarly works? I recommend looking for one more opinion piece on the other side, and I, Gordon Watts apologize to the great spirit of WIKI for accidentally linking 4-3 pro and introducing slight numerical POV; It was an accident. I would have linked 4-4, had I been paying attention.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Here are some candidates:

• http://www.buchtelite.com/2005/0322/opinion_02.shtml "Focus on Schiavo," by Mike Hixenbaugh, March 22, 2005 Issue, buchtelite.com, clearly an ANTI feed Terri piece. "Is sucking food through a tube living? Schiavo has been forced to suffer as he watched this shadow of his former wife lay helplessly in a hospital bed for too long."

Argh...!! I am having trouble finding article that support starving Terri anywhere! LOADS of "feed Terri" commentary are floating around the net, proof that our side has support. Just a second; I will keep looking, "just to be fair."

• http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/03/22/exploiting_terri_schiavo

"Exploiting Terri Schiavo," Boston Globe, March 22, 2005 "THE US Congress has no place at Terri Schiavo's bedside. Neither does the president of the United States." This is also an "ANTI" piece. I have brought "balance to the force." Let's do it! We can now safely post links that are not POV. If you post both of those, we will need one more "PRO" link, but I think I am up to the task.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:44, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• Ghost, I got your message and responded on your page, explaining what I'm doing. I added the additional links to eliminate POV and am copying the "format" used in the Intelligent Design links section: .--GordonWattsDotCom 07:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm questioning if this article should have an advocacy section at all. And I was concerned that the "equal numbers of Pro vs Anti" would be distracting. Which it is. Instead, what about an expanded legal ref section? I'm hoping that this article could be the quality that a law student could lean on for both links to case law and debatable topics. You're better at legal research than I am, so I need your help. And maybe Mia-Cle as well. But let emphasize: (1) I want to avoid Pro- & Anti- altogether. Why create a POV problem if we don't have too? (2) We could and should touch on the underlying legal issues on the State and Federal levels. I know you're more involved in Terri's Law, but I'm more focused on the Palm Sunday Compromise. There's a middle ground here, someplace...and that middle ground may assist the next people to argue similar cases. It's my prayer that a well written article can minimize the grief on all sides.--ghost 17:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The controversial Intelligent Design page in WIKI, see link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Intelligent_design#External_links has this format, and it seems to work. There is no such thing as a NPOV, whether the "N" stands for "Neutral" or "No" as in "No point of view." There will always be some point of view, but the way to balance it is by equal representation, and have faith in the Intelligent Design editors, and trust their methods. Also, I am in favor of an expanded legal documents section. We can borrow from other WIKI pages -or look on the web. Let me suggest that the legal documents on these pages would be helpful:

• From Terri's official family site
• Many court docs you won't find anywhere else, including petition to UN
• mirror
• Find Law's compilation (also listed below --oops, I duplicated)
• Docs on a Hospice Patients Alliance site
• One Video of Terri which had not been released; some links bad, site not maintained, but first link is good, and has a mirror site to this formerly unreleased video, now floating all around the internet
• mirror
• A compilation on one of Gov Bush's official websites
• See also that links for court documents which are already on the main Schiavo page, copied and pasted here:

Compilations

• Findlaw's compilation (http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo) (legal documents relating to the Schiavo case)

Tampa Bay Online's compilation (http://reports.tbo.com/reports/schiavo/)

• Abstract Appeal's compilation (web log) (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) (by Matt Conigliaro)

The University of Miami Ethics Programs' compilation (http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo_project.htm) Information sites

• Amicus National, Inc. (2005). LIVING WILL / STATE SPECIFIC (https://www.legaldocs.com/htmdocs/livin_st.htm). Site providing free living will forms on a state-by-state basis. Retrieved April 16, 2005

• Zorn, Eric (2005). FOR YOUR REFERENCE - THE SCHIAVO CASE (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/03/for_your_refere_1.html). Chicago Tribune. Retrieved March 31, 2005

I hope this helps.--GordonWattsDotCom 11:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Intellectual Honesty: In case you didn't notice, ghost (and friends), some of the links I'm suggesting above are my own. Two of them are not maintained well, and have bad links, but I included them just to be on the safe side. As a matter of "intellectual honesty," when I promote links, and I run into a few of my own pages, in a routine Internet search (or memory search), I ask myself if this information is useful for the reader. Usually (but not always) it is. So, while I am caught between the ethical dilemma of not promoting my own websites -or, in cheating the reader, sometimes I come down on the side of providing the reader with all the information he or she needs to get the full picture. However, in order to be "intellectually honest," I must also say and admit that I just wanted to be honest and let you know of my disposition here about not hiding selected links, just because they happen to be my own. But, I am not an island unto myself. Right of wrong, my views and actions are still subject to the community review and analysis. Since I have shown by my actions that I have the interests of the reader at heart, I would ask that others would have the same goal, and put politics and personal biases aside, and merely look at the quality of the material: The web pages in question (mine included) will not be here forever! And, neither will the readers, so we must "strike while the iron is hot." In fact, I may be here less than I would like, as I have to prepare for a job search, and I am ill equipped at the moment, my personal belongings having been allowed to grow very disorganized whilst I was in court, on the web, and at protests. (In other words, my room is as messy as H-ll!) I hope my points are clear and not offensive. Take care,--GordonWattsDotCom 11:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• ::::: * Update: I fixed the section, per above; The only two pages I left out above were two of mine, but they were not maintained well and got the boot. All the rest meet my high-standard seal of approval and should stay, I think.--GordonWattsDotCom 13:30, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Much better. Thank you. Although I continue to disagree on an Advocacy section being appropriate in this article, I sincerly appreciate the work on the legal section. I also appreciate the removal of your links. I know you feel that they add value, but they create the appearence of a conflict of interest.

There are two issues in dispute. One is the use of an advocacy page. The other is links to some of my research. You are right -they give the appearance of conflict. There are a total of four (4) links in that section to my sites, but I am hesitant to actually remove them myself. I know you may not like my decision, but I am promoting you to "manager." As such, I would like you to click on all the links, to make sure they're good. Then, I want you to offer your opinion on whether or not they should stay. That way, the appearance of a conflict of interest is eliminated. I won't interfere in your decision-making process, since i've already cast my vote. I would hope and ask that you get someone else's input, preferably Viriditas or someone else who is both level-headed and has been involved in these pages here, and ask them about the two points of disagreement here, that is, whether or not to have the Advocacy section (if you still have misgivings), and then, whether or not to include links to my pages. I feel that by challenging the concept of an "Advocacy & Commentary" section itself, you are creating more barriers to an improved links section, and making public access to the "commentary" pages have to jump through extra hoops -in some cases, two. For example, let's say that one of my "commentary" peices on Terri's Law is a good one that is unequalled in merit. If, for example, you ask for feedback on the Advocacy section and then later ask for feedback on one of my websites, you are running the risk of the feedback coming back "well, let's approve the Advocacy section but vote against the Gordon links" and making this seems as a compromise. This is creating "extra hurdles." I would ask that you look at both the main Schiavo page and the "Intelligent Design" page, and note that they both have Commentary sections for the reader. This proposition is "neutral" and would waste our time to consider. Then, you would have a much better chance of getting a "fair hearing" on the few links that I provide. If you can't find my links (all four are on this article page), then that is good proof that they are quality. So, I have let you know how I feel. I don't plan to remove the links, as I feel they should be there, but I will not stop you and your colleague editors from removing them. You are on your honor to be fair and just.--GordonWattsDotCom 16:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question: You also did extensive work on the legal refs on the Palm Sunday Compromise. Why aren't the federal legal refs here as well? It gives the impression that this is the Terri's Law page, dba Gov. involvement... If you want to avoid duplication, we should point the reader more interested in federal issues to the Compromise page. But I prefer to have this as a one-stop-law-student-shop.--ghost 14:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Why aren't the federal legal refs here as well?" This is a state case, not a federal case. The only federal references that should be listed (if we can find them) would be the appeal to any federal courts on this particular case, not the other "Terri's Law" case. There were two Terri's Law cases: One was the Jeb Bush state case, and the other was the Federal "Habeas Corpus" case. By the way, I was the first person to try Habeas Corpus for Terri. Others copied me, and one lawyer for Terri's family, whose name shall remain private, emailed me asking for another copy of that court brief after he/or/she lost the one I had served on their Gibbs law firm. The president to Not Dead Yet also emailed me and congratulated me for my close call. She is crippled, something I didn't know when first trying to enlist their help. (They said "no.") In short, however, let me conclude: The federal and state "Terri's Law" pages (this one, and the other one), may be able to be merged, but in attempting that, you would draw in a lot of biased editors who would delete my pages without checking them out first, and this would be wrong. They could theoretically have been merged, but they just as easily can be linked together. I tell you what -linking them together should not be controversial at all, so I will do that, and that should take care of the problems you envision for any young law students. If they're linked together, then any half-way normal law student should be able to find out what he/she needs to, so your problem should be solved. What do you think?--GordonWattsDotCom 16:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Edit War between me and User:Calton

Here are the 2 links & in question & the diff

Here is the diff in question.

Here are the 2 links: One is an opinion piece, and the other a news piece: Don't we treat news items t oa higher standard than opinion pieces; After all, opposing opinion pieces routinely appear, even even though one of them is bound to be a lie, we include both, don't we?--GordonWatts 20:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Documents, which include a petition to the UN & not found elsewhere, mirror, in case server is busy:

• "Analysis of 'Terri’s Law:' Is constitutional?" The Register, October 31 2003 ,

--GordonWatts 20:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Other comments: Remember, we need to focus on the links, not the edit war

In this edit, an edit war began between me and Calton. He removed links that had been on the page for ages -link which seemed to comply with current Misplaced Pages policy. I reverted his edit as vandalism, because I felt he was trying to take a swipe at me by removing links to web pages I maintained. Note if you would that in that edit, I did not, per se, add any links of my own -or any links at all, for that matter: i merely reverted to the last stable version.

Eventually, Calton was prompted to justify his edit, and in the edit summary of this edit summary, he offers three links.

I shall comment on them. Observe:

• First: He cites point 11 of WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided, which says: "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority."

• My reply: User:MartinGugino aptly pointed out here that indeed I have "special standing," which I believe would probably qualify me a "recognized authority."

• Second: Calton cites WP:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest, which states, in succinct part, that "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked."

• My reply: This, on the face, makes sense, but my "rvv" revert of his edit, did not, per se, make an edit to add my links; it merely reverted what I felt was vandalism on his part. (He does make the good argument here in "Terri Schiavo" TALK that links are not necessarily good just because they've been on a page for a while.) However, this policy doesn't apply: I am not adding links; I was reverting his vandalism.

• Lastly: He cites Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Using_online_and_self-published_sources, which is a lengthy section on general policy here.

• My reply: Calton fails to specify what exactly the problem here is. One of the links he removed was to an opinion piece on Terri's Law, which should not be construed as news. Opinion is not news. The other links he removed was to a petition before the United Nations, which qualifies as news.

So, the question arises: Is the news source credible? We turn to the Misplaced Pages on that link above, which states: "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications."

Indeed, even as Martin pointed out, the Florida Supreme Court commented on my case, and gave me three "support" votes, three more than Governor Jeb Bush on the same subject. Also, I have been published in other, lesser known, journals on the subject of Terri Schiavo.

• These would see to indicate that he is wrong on the point; I feel uncomfortable making an edit to revert his vandalism -because while this is permitted even under the more stringent policy (that edit did not explicitly add links: It merely reverted to a previous, stable version), the end result is that it does re-add the links back, and I certainly have a conflict of interest: I am the manager of those sites.

• I am not sure what I will do - I think I will solicit input from other editors: Indeed, I am a Christian and follow the example of Jesus, as John 13:15 asks me to do, and Jesus would not push his own agenda, but that of God; however, in the end, maybe I need to act to bring attention to this matter, and maybe I do need to revert Calton. I will try to polite approach first, as a hatt-tip to Jesus.--GordonWatts 14:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, label that edit as 'vandalism' one more time when it is not, and you will be in risk of losing your edit privileges. That goes for labelling any edit, not just that one.

To be very clear: you have created your own Geocities opinion site, and are linking to it. This is directly and explicitly ruled out in Misplaced Pages policy, as you mention above. You are not a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise". Even if you were, and you are not, this falls afoul of our guidelines on conflict of interest. The link stays out. Proto::► 16:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your obsessive focus on my news paper indicates you did not read my arguments, so I will ask the obvious: If you say that I am "not a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise"," then this begs the question: What about the links to sites such as Terri's Fight and Terri's Blogs? Government_involvement_in_the_Terri_Schiavo_case#Advocacy_and_commentary Are these people "experts" in their field? Not only are they not experts, they are "Johnny One Note" websites, dedicated to one purpose, not more general, and objective news papers, such as my paper. Also, most of them were not involved in the Terri Schiavo ordeal (maybe Terri's immediate family, but certainly not most of those who write for Terri's Blogs and certainly not the "The Buchtelite, Independent voice of the University of Akron." Yet we approve all three of these links, both pro-Terri's Law and anti-Terri's Law. I submit to you that the only reason we are making such a big deal about this is because I am an editor, and picking on someone is all the vogue in Misplaced Pages. If I were not an editor here, but the editor for the Akron paper -or one of the Terri's Blogs writers, we'd find THEM being attacked with these same arguments. I was more involved as an "expert," and my paper is just as much (or more) of a paper than such as the Terri's Blogs, yet we chose to keep them and pull out the link to my paper? Are you not biased? If not, then please explain why all those links are OK, and the one to my paper isn't? I will patiently wait for an explanation (I could be wrong), but if you or no one else proffer one in due time, I shall revert. Thanks in advance for your feedback.--GordonWatts 00:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I have stated my response above, and I shall not repeat myself; Did you not read my response here?--GordonWatts 16:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To be very clear: you have created your own Geocities opinion site, and are linking to it. The links had been on these pages for ages, and I only reverted Calton's edit; That is not the same as "linking" to a page. Big difference: Reverting an edit (which is what was done here) and adding a link to a page are 2 different things--GordonWatts 16:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Proto and, for the record, I did read through the description above in its entirety. The link, which is inappropriate as outlined at WP:External links, should not be included in the article, and GordonWatts should refrain from editing the article as he has made his conflict of interest apparent. Removal of the link is not vandalism, and it is incivil to repeatedly label an edit which follows policy as vandalism. Leebo 16:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully dissent, but I have outlined my replies to all 3 arguments raised by Calton, and the only one that somewhat convinces me is the conflict of interest argument. Although I technically did not add any links just now, I did make a revert which "effectively" added them, and so, I agree that I violate the "spirit" of "conflict of interest" even if not the letter of the law.

However, you are entitled to your opinion; So noted that the current opinion on this matter is 3-2, with my supporting the links and MartinGugino supporting some of my main arguments -even if not explicitly commenting on the links in question; and, you and Calton and Proto are in opposition. Thank you for weighing in. Even if the article loses these valuable recourse links, the wiki is able to function open and in the light with input from editors. That's what it's all about in wiki-land.--GordonWatts 17:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"The link, which is inappropriate..." Hold on a sec, Leebo86: There were TWO links deleted by Calton. Are you sure you read through the edit history too?--GordonWatts 17:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Before you fall for Gordon's latest snow job, note that BOTH of the sites are his. --Calton | Talk 17:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I do realize that, and phrased it singularly because I considered it to be one site despite 2 links. Both links were inappropriate. Leebo 17:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was using the plural you (as in "y'all"), not you specifically, Leebo. --Calton | Talk 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No offense taken; I wanted to make my response to GordonWatts at the same time. Leebo 17:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have not been following this situation as I have been having my own problems with Calton

Sorry, I don't have much to add to this conversation other than a little information on Calton. - SVRTVDude 18:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Gordon. I've looked at the links, and I've looked at the policy pages here, and I cannot see any way in which it would be appropriate under Misplaced Pages policy to link to your site. I think you need to step back and forget that they're your sites, and just think of the normal Misplaced Pages guidelines, which would accept links to The Times, but not to a geocities homepage of some private individual. And I hate saying this, but you are not more notable than Governor Bush. I really wish, though, that everyone would stop sneering and/or bickering. ElinorD 21:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon's career as a legal beagle

...the Florida Supreme Court commented on my case, and gave me three "support" votes, three more than Governor Jeb Bush on the same subject

To learn how empty that boast is, see the legal history outlined at User talk:Duckecho. --Calton | Talk 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

How... enlightening. So, does this essentially mean that Gordon's conflict of interest isn't even that tangible, considering the fact that his attempts to file were dismissed? Is that his only claim to being a "recognized authority" on the matter? Leebo 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Ask Google or Yahoo about me if you want to know. It is not right that I comment on myself here, so I shant do so.--GordonWatts 18:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Here, let me help you:

Google.com Results 1 - 10 of about 951 for "Gordon Watts" "Terri Schiavo". (0.36 seconds)

and

Yahoo! 1 - 10 of about 195 for "Gordon Watts" "Terri Schiavo" - 0.40 sec.

--GordonWatts 18:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Through searching, I found your site and some trivial blog and news posts that seemed as unaware about what really happened as I was when I first read your description. I didn't see anything that would substantiate your claim to being a recognized authority in light of Duckecho's talk page. Leebo 18:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Count the votes: I did better than the Governor -before the same panel of judges -on the same topic matters. Observe:

The Governor lost 7-0.

I (Gordon) lost 4-3.

If the governor is notable, I am more so. The court was an objective, 3rd-party, voice. Re-read the Misplaced Pages guidelines about sources and notability.--GordonWatts 18:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, I just read Duckecho's talk page, which Calton linked in the first post of this thread. Why are you trying to convince me that the two rulings are on the same thing when yours was dismissed without hearing any facts? They weren't the same issue. Leebo 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To answer your question, both the governor and I lost our initial petitions to save Terri; Yes, I lost 1-0 the 1st time, since I did not get a hearing before the judges themselves, but I asked for a rehearing. I almost got a grant of rehearing, whereas the Gov lost by a shutout. Also, I add that the University of Miami here considers me an expert. Observe the 3rd to the last link. This, in addition, to the Supreme court's ruling on my case, established that I have standing as described by MartinGugino in this edit.--GordonWatts 18:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

interjecting You have special knowledge as to your own motions. and you have the standard knowledge of one who has been interested in the case for a long time. That's what I felt I meant. Martin | talk • contribs 19:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Elaborating: "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources The U of Miami and the Fla Supreme Court would qualify as 3rd party.--GordonWatts 18:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I already referred to your "special standing" in this case in my first post in the thread. It doesn't seem like you actually got anywhere in your effort to file your papers. What are the standards that must be met for the University of Miami to add a link to your site? Is it just the personal addition of a member of their Ethics department staff? There's no designation on their site that they regard you as anything more than a webmaster, not as an expert on the case based on your failed filing. Leebo 19:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"It doesn't seem like you actually got anywhere in your effort to file your papers." Fair enough: Half the people in any given case lose, so the fact I lost is not a fatal blow. Three of the Justices felt my case had enough merit to grant me a rehearing. Although I have already made the argument that "I did better than the Gov," and I shall not dwell on that, let me emphasize that NONE of the judges wanted to rehear his case, yet he is so notable that he is often mentioned by name in articles; heck, he even has his own page: Jeb_Bush. Now, to those who would say that "Gordon is not the Governor," let me remind you this article is not about the Governor, but rather about Terri. If you look HARD enough at any link, you can find faults with it, and yes, I'm not God, nor am I the New York Times, but when I write a story about my petition to the UN on my newspaper, it should be taken as true -I don't lie. The other link was to an opinion piece about Terri's Law, and it should have not been removed, since it was not a news item, but rather an opinion piece; You always have two opposing views in opinion pieces, necessitating that one side is a lie, but you still don't disqualify one side or the other. Regarding the U of Miami, you have to ask them their standards. I don't know. We're getting nit picky here. If you think the links to the papers I manage are bad, you could probably find something wrong with half the links on Misplaced Pages. If you don't believe me, just look at a few pages, OK?--GordonWatts 20:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

QUESTION FOR Leebo:

In opposing the inclusion of my links, by citing Misplaced Pages policy, you are effectively saying that you don't trust that what I have posted to my online news paper is true.

Is that what you intended to say?

The two links in question are in the edit history, and I posted them above. Also, I would like you to comment on the other links in the Schiavo articles; I feel that if my links are called into question, you should look at the other links and see what they are, and hold them to the same standard. I'm not trying to pick on you by naming you specifically, but rather, you seem to have an opinion on which I would like clarification. Rather, I feel I am being picked on and singled out: By that, I mean that if we took ANY of the various links listed in the mammoth article, you could come to a similar conclusion, yet we aren't. Thanks in advance for clarification on these points.--GordonWatts 21:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of content (be it a section or whole article) is nothing more than adherance to the policy, not a comment on the veracity of your statements. The fact that they may be true does not make your site a reliable source. Leebo 21:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

GORDON'S REPLY: Thanks for the feedback, but look at your own words: "Reliable" and "true" basically mean the same thing here. Why, you might ask? Well, the website is expected to be reliable, for what? For telling the truth. I was there when I filed the petitions to the UN in this matter, and it really, truly happened. (I was reliable for having told the truth - truth in reporting, folks; I don;'t lie as a reporter.) Now, the questions that might be more appropriate are these: Is my opinion on the matter notable? (Remember: One of the links is to my opinion on Terri's Law.) The other would be: Are my filings to the UN notable? (That hinges on my involvement in this case, or my notability.)--GordonWatts 21:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, can you stop referring to Jeb Bush's filing? The comparison is not fair, because the two rulings were for different things. He actually had evidence reviewed, while you never got that far because your papers were not filed properly and in a timely manner. Leebo 21:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

GORDON'S REPLY: Yes, Jeb got his case heard, and I didn't, and he's a big, tall governor, while I'm a small, skinny country boy, but at the end of the day BOTH our cases were dead. When we both went before the Florida Supreme Court to ask for a "rehearing" in our cases, and I almost was granted one; He was run over by the court in a landslide. Thus, although I concede in the matter of the hearing of the case, he did better, in the matter of the rehearing, I did far better. But, hey, all of us are better at some things and worse at others...--GordonWatts 21:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Leebo86 here. In any case, whether you lied or not (and I'm sure you didn't), this policy says that "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth."

By the way, I really don't like the title of this section. ElinorD 21:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

GORDON'S REPLY: Although I would like to change the title of this section AND the other section (to be more polite), I will leave this one alone (Gordon's career as a legal beagle) -out of deference and respect for the one who wrote it; If I am not offended, it should be OK, and I am a bigger person than that. As far as changing the title to the above section (Edit War between me and Calton), it is more neutral than the "behavior" title I once had -plus, I posted invites to this page, using that link, I recall, so I can't change it per se, or else readers will get confused.--GordonWatts 21:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

ANOTHER REPLY to ElinorD:

You wrote: In any case, whether you lied or not (and I'm sure you didn't), this policy says that "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth."

Thank for for giving me the benefit of the doubt, Elinor, but I looked at the actual policy, and it says: "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source.

In that context, it looks like I have been published in many other places (the Fla Supreme Court commented on my case 4-3; The University of Miami published a link to my site; Google and Yahoo! shows many references to my sites and research), and not only that, my news paper, in and of itself, is credible, since it publishes on many topics and never has been sued for slander, libel, or defamation of character. I even made a retraction for a typo, which any good paper will do when it make one. Also, I am not the only writer, only the most prolific one, as editor. So, when you say a reliable source, I can assure you the The Register has a track record of reliability: Would you disagree with any of the articles published? Go look around, and then get back with me:

http://members.aol.com/gww1210/myhomepage/consumer.html MIRROR: http://gordon_watts.tripod.com/consumer.html

http://www.geocities.com/gordon_watts32313/legal.html MIRROR: http://gordonwatts.com/legal.html

http://Members.aol.com/Gww1210 MIRROR: http://www.geocities.com/gordon_watts32313

The Register is not unlike any other news paper - just smaller and less frequent in publishing.

How does this square with policy?--GordonWatts 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I asked earlier about the other links being used, and i never got any response; If indeed you say that my websites are not reliable, what about the numerous other links used in these articles? Many of them are mere news reporters; I am not only a news reporter (albeit with a smaller publication), I am also one of the participants in the Schiavo matter. My news paper is not a "Johnny One Note," like TerrisBlogs and Terri's fight, yet those website ARE listed. Is that not just a little unfair? Thanks in advance. --GordonWatts 22:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. m:Polls are evil. Discuss, don't vote. Poll archived. Period. Yuser31415 01:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Vote Tally

Editors supporting inclusion of The Register links, see talk above:

• Gordon Watts
• MartinGugino has made statements which support some of my arguments but he has not explicitly stated a vote (I will count as half a vote)

Patsw

Editors opposing inclusion of The Register links above:

• Calton
• Proto
• Leebo86
• ElinorD
• Hipocrite
• Fredrick day

• • Tally is:
  • 2.5 Support
  • 6.0 Oppose
  • 0.5 undecided

--GordonWatts 00:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Decisions are made through consensus and discussion, not voting. Leebo 00:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

So noted, but how do we know the consensus if not through voting? Also, I still don't see why you support all the current links and oppose mine? For example, of the 3 I highlighted, two do not have any expertise or experience (The Akron paper and the Terri's Blogs), and two of them are not actual newspapers like my paper: Terri's Fight and Terri's Blogs are not actual newspapers, like The Register, my paper. Whereas they are Johnny One Note publications, The Register publishes on a wide range of hisses, many not related to Terri Schiavo at all -and not all are conservative; I am not the only writer either, so it is not a one-person thing either; I am merely the most prolific writer. So, since links to my paper are superior to those outlined above, I don't see why you are obsessing over the links to my paper. Obsession and myopic focus on one thing alone is not good, but it is this focus by you and others that necessitate my replies, which,m themselves might appear one-tracked. So, why are all those links good and my paper not, when The Register outdoes their links in both objectivity (not Johnny one note-one issue) and in expertise (few of them have involvement like I do)? Thanks in advance!--GordonWatts 00:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussion of your link, which is what I noticed and came to participate in, does not generate vicariously any opinion for myself as to the validity of the other links. I will review them and remove them if they don't meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines for external links, just as you should if you feel they don't. Leebo 00:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention to the matter, but I will tell you this: I approve of all the present links, both those on the "pro-Terri's Law" side and those against; maybe you would interpret this as a lower standard, but when dealing with an opinion piece, verifiability is not applicable: It is not alleging a news item happened, so the lower standards are ok. Regarding those that are news items, they look legit to me, so I would not support their removal, but if you agree with me on this (and I hope you do), then I would submit that you should not hold my paper to a much higher or different standard than the other links. I am glad you are being fair and reviewing the other links too, but don't go and just remove one to "prove" you're fair -and support your case. That would be wrong and deprive Misplaced Pages of its major forte: Diversity. Thanks again for your concern.--GordonWatts 00:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. He knows this, because he's tried this stunt before, arguing vociferously that, to quote Curps at Gordon's unsuccessful Admin bid (see oppose vote #26), "he considers that 4-3 in his favor is a consensus, yet 24-3 or more against him isn't that a 4-3 was a 'consensus'". The links are obvious violations, Gordon, and your spin on your "expertise" isn't the slightest bit convincing. They're staying out.

...maybe you would interpret this as a lower standard I interpret it as a self-serving standard -- part of long-term pattern, really. --Calton | Talk 01:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, since you asked

I don't think that a link to your site which shows that you petitioned the UN is essential to the story, since nothing significant came of it, and no one coming to Misplaced Pages is likely to be coming wondering if anyone petitioned the UN.

Incorrect: The UN was the next logical step, as they indeed handle similar human-rights abuses; I am surprised no one else petitioned the UN, but I suspect that if they did, they were ignored; The UN petition is no less important than any other news item -most especially since we want to include all relevant legal action, and the UN was no less important than, say, the state US supreme court action.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I do find it somewhat amazing that you did that, and the document itself seems to have at least some of the appropriate boilerplate on it.

Thank you; and, for that reason, other readers might also find it interesting to find out what all happened and who did what to seek legal intervention on both sides.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I cant say I am shocked that the UN did not immediately begin to investigate.

I agree: The UN is not very proactive -but you miss another point, which no one addressed; Even if the UN petition news item was not "newsworthy" or "notable," why would not the links to the opinion piece be improper? Links to "less notable" opinion piece writers are present in this article -or related articles. Though I disagree with the UN link dis-inclusion, I shall accept consensus, but since the other link was not even discussed, I shall soon put it back in -if no discussion ensues. Fair is fair: People can't arbitrarily make decisions about a group of things, when only one was discussed; This is inherently un-wiki, thus unfair.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

That being said, I do think that you have overstepped in the following ways:

• voted on my behalf
  • Note, if you would, I was quite clear that I was not speaking for you but rather informally interpreting the evidence and statements, but your comment is duly noted.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• characterize an edit as vandalism that is, on the face of it, not vandalism
  • This is a good point: I don't know Calton's motives, but based on his endless pattern of deleting good links (not just mine), I saw that as a pattern -when he deleted mine shortly after I started editing; I felt that he was exacting revenge against me for the prior disputes we have had about inclusion of other links. I could be wrong: Maybe he really believed he was acting in good faith, so I shall Assume Good Faith here, as you imply.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• link from an article to your own site. You can link from the talk page if you like.
  • The recent edit in question merely reverted Calton's edit, but I do admit that this effectively put links to my newspapers back in -links which had been there for years without complaint. In the spirit of honesty, I do admit that I seem to recall that I put in the links in question many years ago, but this was after much discussion and consensus had been reached, and no one opposed the matter, so it became well-established and unrefuted consensus.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• carry on an endless argument, with a multiplying of words
  • This is a good point, but you miss the larger picture, Martin: Calton has done this with MANY good links. Just deleted them. What, should an encyclopedia be deprived of its references now? Also, I have yet to have a clear answer on why many other links to sites by those with less expertise/involvement are left in -and website that aren't even newspapers -when my paper indeed is a newspaper, even if not on par with thr New York Times. The lack of answers here indicates that there is no valid reason to treat links to The Register any differently, so what's the problem?--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Martin | talk • contribs 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's where to discuss the recent edit -re-instating opinion link

If anyone wants to discuss the recent edit to the article page here, this is the thread.

As I noted in the talk page here, two links were in question, but arguments were bandied about mainly about one link, the news link.

The opinion link need not be "verifiable," since, after all, it is an opinion piece.

I borderline on conflict of interest, which, while not outright prohibited, is highly discouraged, but I accepted consensus on one link, and the other one I put back in was a simple "partial revert," not a direct addition, so I didn't actually "add my link," I merely partly reverted. (I did, however, add it many years ago, after much debate and consensus supported it.)

Thanks in advance, but don't just make a blind edit. Either state your case (like some of you did in the prior issue) or accept the new edit as "new consensus.": Whether I am right or wrong is not even the main issue here: The blind deflationists attitude of editors who simply say "don't add your own link" without actually looking at what the facts are is -not just my paper, but many good resources are deleted because people don't like the view they espouse -and simply hid behind some Misplaced Pages policy to pretend the link is "non-notable" (I don't speak of my page; I speak of MANY good pages and news resources, which any good encyclopedia would have.)

Since Calton has said that I'm a bad editor on numerous occasions, I would like to point out there is an active RfC about his behavior, and while he may have been right on some things he said here, if he says I'm a bad editor, I will simply show evidence of his behaviour, but this page is NOT about personalities or behavior, so let's ignore that, if we could, but if Calton or others want to speak about that, then I will go get the RfC link for the active complaints against him. Is that how we want to be? Let's just leave this argument alone, OK, and just focus on whether links in question fir or not, OK? Thx.

Briefly, if anyone disputes my edit here, please be ready to show why all other advocacy and commentary is acceptable -even when most of those writers had no legal involvement -and some are mere blogs or personal "one issue" sites -in contrast the my paper, which is NOT a one-issue website, but rather just another of many newspapers -albeit smaller than most.--GordonWatts 11:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop it. Inserting blogs and personal webpages as links and sources is not acceptable. Inserting your own is doubly not acceptable. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see you regularly edit regarding blogs and personal pages (I see the notice on your page), so I won't erroneously think you are picking on me; however, that does not make your edits any more correct. "your own is doubly not acceptable." If you didn't notice, this recent edit was not me "adding my own link," but rather a revert to a stable prior version -and a only partial revert at that. "Inserting blogs and personal webpages as links and sources..." Secondly, this link is not a "source," rather, it is an opinion piece. There is a difference. Had I linked to source a news item, I could see your point, but many, many blogs are listed under opinions and advocacy, such as Terri's Fight and Blogs for Terri. If you actually answer my points here, I will not revert you -even if I disagree with you -but I don't like it when a person just willy-nilly deleting something without getting the facts. I will revert in a heartbeat when I see that. Now, this time, Hipocrite, please try to look at the opposing arguments and answer them BEFORE you make an edit. I will keep my word here, but you need to read my post here again just to make sure you see I made such a promise.--GordonWatts 12:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Your revert on this page is here. It merely reinserts external links to geocities.com and hometown.aol.com. Both of those sites are maintained by "Gordon Watts," which I am led to believe is you. Review WP:EL and WP:COI. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Your site may simply be an "opinion" piece, as you put it, but all external links are held to a standard of reliability, no matter what they cover. A personal site isn't reliable, and opinions don't really belong on Misplaced Pages anyway unless they are asserted through neutral reliable sources. Leebo 13:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If those links are put in at all, they would have to be put in by someone other than Gordon, I feel. Gordon, you're coming across as wanting those links too badly. I don't feel that blogs or personal websites from non-notable people are appropriate under WP:EL and WP:RS. Gordon, please don't continue to revert; since nobody supports you, it is just edit warring at this stage. I'm sorry to have to be so direct. I have no doubt that you reported honestly in your website, but really, when you start equating yourself as being as notable as Governor Bush, you lose a lot of support that you might otherwise gain. By the way, you're asking how Terrisfight can be justified if your site isn't. At the time of the case, I was following it on BBC News, and they linked to Terrisfight. They never mentioned, or linked to, anything by Gordon Watts. The fact that Terrisfight was set up by Terri's blood family, in their struggle against her husband, makes it notable, in my view. I don't have any particular opinion on blogsforterri. If people feel it should go or stay, then that's fine. ElinorD 13:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Leaving aside the crimes against webdesign and panpipes that the geocities.com site represents, it seems to be a slightly ranty editorial site - I say NO to it's inclusion, I do not see what it adds to the article - I could not get the AOL site to open but I would guess it's more of the same. --Fredrick day 14:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I was involved in some of the edit wars in creating this article. The current dispute seems to be a personal vendetta that has spilled over into this article rather than an effort to make this article a better article. To say that "nobody" supports Gordon, is now untrue. I support him, or more precisely, I was around when these links entered the article and would have supported their entry and the time among many editors who were active in the article if they were disputed then. I support their inclusion now.

Since the actual events of the article are now nearly two years old, and the facts have not changed, and the Misplaced Pages policies have not significantly changed, it seems that odd new quibbles about "notablity" are concealing some spite against Gordon Watts and they have nitpicked this article as a soft target for that agenda. patsw 05:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I would probably "nitpick" over these same "quibbles" with anyone trying to add a personal site to an article, no less their own personal site. Leebo 05:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

What changed since 2005? Nothing at all -- except that he got caught. These were always inappropriate, and there's no statute of limitations on bad links.

The current dispute seems to be a personal vendetta that has spilled over into this article rather than an effort to make this article a better article That would be a figment of your imagination, but nice attempt at misdirection.

So, any arguments grounded in actual policy? Now would be the time to bring them out. --Calton | Talk 05:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a "misdirection" to call this a dispute over "a personal site". Gordon Watts presented in good faith the reason why these links represent his own significant activity in the Schiavo case and merit inclusion. As an editor I endorse their inclusion and am satisfied they appear in the article in the appropriate section, conform to WP:EL, WP:COI, and WP:RS.

It's my judgment that this is a petty dispute and this old article was selected as a proxy battleground for it opportunistically. It is unfair to characterize Gordon Watts as wanting these links included too badly. He didn't start the recent edit dispute in this article. If you want to play the "examine their motives" game, others want the links deleted too badly.

• So what was the trigger for the de novo review of these links anyway?
• What exactly is being claimed about the linked pages: that they are untruthful, improperly labeled as neutral, or something else? patsw 14:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

can you explain how you feel that the links conform to and by extension Gordon Watt's actions conform to WP:COI and WP:RS as I cannot see how they meet these standards? --Fredrick day 14:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• It is a "misdirection" to call this a dispute over "a personal site". Not even wrong. See, a rebuttal requires more than aping the argument's wording and turning it around, it should have a discernible meaning of its own.

• Gordon Watts presented in good faith the reason why these links represent his own significant activity in the Schiavo case and merit inclusion "Good faith", "bad faith", or "no faith whatsoever" is immaterial, the actual evidence is -- and the evidence is, to say Gordon had "significant activity in the Schiavo case" is flatly false.

• As an editor I endorse their inclusion and am satisfied they appear in the article in the appropriate section, conform to WP:EL, WP:COI, and WP:RS. You'll have to do better than "Because I said so", because your belief is entirely unsupported by anyone else. So, how, exactly, do they dodge these basic policy restrictions? The "recognized authority" rationale won't fly, and the claim of his "significant activity " won't fly, either, since, you'll note, there's not a breath of a hint of a suggestion of Gordon's "significant activity" anywhere in the 69K of material that makes up the article.

• It's my judgment that this is a petty dispute and this old article was selected as a proxy battleground for it opportunistically. Your judgment is entirely fact-free and self-serving -- and again, stop with the attempt to deflect the issue.

• It is unfair to characterize Gordon Watts as wanting these links included "too badly". Nope, completely fair and completely in character with his past edit-warring.

• He didn't start the recent edit dispute in this article. Actually, he did, both when he originally added them against policy, and then again when he -- completely alone -- tried to put them back. Given that it's Gordon -- and only now, you -- trying to do this, characterizing this as an edit dispute, as if there were two equal sides, is false; or, more charitably, spin.

• If you want to play the "examine their motives" game, others want the links deleted too badly Ah, false dichotomies, you gotta love 'em.

* So what was the trigger for the de novo review of these links anyway? de novo? This ain't the 5th Circuit, Mr. Dershowitz. And there's no statute of limitations for bad material, so you can stop trying to imply that as a rationale.

* What exactly is being claimed about the linked pages: that they are untruthful, improperly labeled as neutral, or something else? The answers are, in order, irrelevant, irrelevant, and asked and answered. For the last choice, simply raise your eyes slightly and you should be able to spot them. --Calton | Talk 15:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As someone who happened upon this article in the middle of this dispute, I am confused as to how there is any ambiguity in WP:EL being applied here. No evidence has been presented that the author of the linked sites is recognized as an authority on the subject by any independent entity. The links go. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.--RWR8189 22:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Some arguments by Gordon for link inclusion

I shall, as an example, use three newspapers familair to us all -as examples, OK?