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Talk:Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) at 03:41, 8 May 2022 (→Requested move 22 April 2022: As the Kharkiv operations have been moved from Northeastern Ukraine offensive into this article, I no longer support the proposed renaming.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 03:41, 8 May 2022 by LightandDark2000 (talk | contribs) (→Requested move 22 April 2022: As the Kharkiv operations have been moved from Northeastern Ukraine offensive into this article, I no longer support the proposed renaming.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
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On 3 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Northeastern Ukraine offensive. The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nominator.
Horlivka offensive was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 4 April 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Source collection dump

Please add sources to this list so we can build up this article. We created this way too late so a lot of sources have been lost in the furor. Curbon7 (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

  • Chernihiv Oblast (not Chernihiv though):
  • Donetsk Oblast:
  • Kharkiv Oblast:
  • Luhansk Oblast:
  • Sumy Oblast:
Added some content (and sources) to this article (too lazy to put them all here). Seantseng918 (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Thanks! Yeah this is just a list to toss-in source that need to be added in. Obv if the sources are already in the article, then it's fine lol Curbon7 (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Improve image in infobox

The image on the infobox show only from Konotop to Sumy, Kharkiv is not visible, and it is a static image. Can someone replace it with a crop of the map of the whole invasion that shows the whole offensive. Ridanbp (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator. after seven days have passed. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 13:19, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Northeastern Ukraine offensive – To distinguish it from the offensive in Donbass and the Kherson offensive.Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Can you please provide a list of sources that separate it by calling it a northeastern offensive or similar term like axis/campiagn? We shouldn't change it just because of geography. Advances in Donbass are already mentioned here. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Sources? It's an evolving situation. Where were the sources for "Eastern" when ity was created? Let's be practical here. The operation in Donbass is completely different to what is happening near Kharkiv. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
We don't make up names here. What is your proof that it is different? Or has a different objective? AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Where was the proof that it was "Eastern" at the time of creation? Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of Kharkiv

To which theatre of war does this battle belong? To the Eastern Ukraine offensive or the Northeastern Ukraine offensive? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Northeastern Ukraine offensive. —Michael Z. 20:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
Disagree. Being that the offensive in Sumy and Chernihiv (Northeast Ukraine) has ended, its more useful to think of Kharkiv as part of the Eastern Ukraine offenseive now. Wolf359Locutus (talk) 05:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Eastern Ukraine offensive be renamed and moved to Southeastern Ukraine offensive.

result:
No consensus. Closure requested – <permalink>. See no agreement below to rename this article to the proposed title. No prejudice to begin a new RM for the "Donbas" usage. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can discover new arguments, strengthen old ones and try again to garner consensus in a few months for this name change. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed.  18:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Move logs: current title · target title This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}
Result:
No consensus. Closure requested – <permalink>. See no agreement below to rename this article to the proposed title. No prejudice to begin a new RM for the "Donbas" usage. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can discover new arguments, strengthen old ones and try again to garner consensus in a few months for this name change. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed.  18:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Southeastern Ukraine offensive While this article covers only the military operations in the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts in southeastern Ukraine, this article is titled "Eastern Ukraine offensive." This can confuse our readers into thinking that the article covers offensive operations in both the northeastern and southeastern Ukraine regions, when this is clearly not the case. This article used to cover military operations in both northeastern and southeastern Ukraine. However, ever since content in this article pertaining to northeastern Ukraine was split off into Northeastern Ukraine offensive, the title for this article has not been updated accordingly to reflect the changes. Since we already have an article titled Northeastern Ukraine offensive, I propose moving this article to Southeastern Ukraine offensive, per WP:PRECISE. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  • Strongly Support – As the proposer. The current title is too vague and confusing, especially since Northeastern Ukraine offensive also exists. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Comment: I am also fine with supporting a renaming to Donbas offensive (2022), but the current article title is unacceptably vague, as any reader can easily be misled into thinking that the article covers ALL of eastern Ukraine when the fact is that it merely covers the two Donbass oblasts. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 03:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Since the Battle of Kharviv is now in the Northeastern theatre then this theatre is effectively about the war in the Donbas. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:24, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • While I concur that a page move is the best choice of action, I think Donbas offensive would be the preferred target. The Donbas and southeast Ukraine are basically the same thing, and like this it removes any possible confusion regarding the application of southeast Ukraine to other areas. Markedly referring to it as the Donbas makes it clear that this is referring only to action in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. Reliable sources have also been referring to this as the Donbas offensive ( ), so I think it makes more sense. Curbon7 (talk) 12:02, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose  Everyone’s been reading about the Donbas war “in eastern Ukraine” for eight years. I don’t see any confusion at all in “eastern” referring to the east and “northeastern” referring to the northeast. “Donbas” might be acceptable, but is it wise to pick a name restricted to the borders of the two Donbas oblasts? —Michael Z. 21:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
    And, I’m sorry, then do we rename the Southern Ukraine offensive to avoid “vagueness and confusion,” or what? The argument to rename is devoid of logic. —Michael Z. 23:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
    They were reading it this way because there was no war in Kharkiv, which is also eastern Ukraine. And now, as there is also war in Kharkiv, and it is descibed in another article, such a notation became ambiguous. I would rather prefer "Donbas offensive" to "Southeastern Ukraine offensive", but anyway both are much better than "Eastern Ukraine offensive". Wikisaurus (talk) 11:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per Laurel Lodged's comment. Fijipedia (talk) 23:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support to distinguish it from Kharkiv. Donbas offensive (2022) is even better. Wikisaurus (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose as an unnecessary fractionation. Activist (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
Query How is it a fractionation? The entirely of the territory in the current scope will remain, just under a new name. It's not being split. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Crimean Tatars are also in this war, someone please add them

Crimean Tatars are also in this war, someone please add them Nizamcı (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Nizamcı, please provide a reliable source. Curbon7 (talk) 09:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Merger Kharkiv with Eastern Ukraine Offensive?

Looking at the Ukraine war map (areas of focus), it makes more sense to connect Kharkiv (currently part of the Northeastern Ukraine offensive article) to the Eastern Ukraine offensive. Also some units, for example the 20th Guards Combined Arms Army, are active in both Kharkiv and the Donbass. As of now, nothing with the Kharkiv battles has anything to do with main focus areas in Northeastern Ukraine (Sumy and Chernihiv). Thoughts? KajMetz (talk) 21:25, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, true, they should merge the battles in the Kharkiv oblast with the Eastern Ukraine offensive. SavageBWiki (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Merge parts of Northeastern offensive into this?

I raised on Northeastern offensive talk page a question whether parts of it should be merged with this article: Talk:Northeastern Ukraine offensive#Merge Northeastern offensive into Kyiv and Eastern offensives?.--Staberinde (talk) 08:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 22 April 2022

It has been proposed in this section that Eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine be renamed and moved to Donbas offensive (2022).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Eastern Ukraine offensive → Donbas offensive (2022) – The offensive occured in Donbas only so it is more precise. Panam2014 (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Question/oppose Apart from the comment that there may be some overflow (per Applodion), what evidence is there as to WP:COMMONNAME for either proposition? We are only free to make up a name if no common name exists. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:17, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cinderella157 and Applodion: we should update the infobox because it covers only Luhansk and Donetsk. Panam2014 (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Since the Kharkiv Oblast operations have been moved out of Northeastern Ukraine offensive and merged into this article, I no longer support the proposed renaming. Changing my vote to Oppose. I'm Neutral on merging Battle of Donbas (2022) into this article, and I would suggest that users consider the length of each article when considering a potential merger of the two. Nonetheless, the major developments and the ultimate outcome of the Battle of Donbas (2022) do need to be covered in this article. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 03:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
      • Oppose Rename ± Fork - the new localisation of the renewed offensive does not change the geographical coverage of the past months as per the last requested move above, which covered an area far beyond the two oblasts; the overall theater of operations since February should not be renamed just on the basis of developments since April. However, the present wave of operations is concentrated in and around the Donbas region and could easily constitute a sub-offensive of its own with its own page. Battle of Donbas (2022) already fulfills this purpose very well, but should other operations occur which very clearly occur for strategic control of the Donbas region, even if not located within Donbas proper, a Donbas offensive (2022) page would be appropriate, which in itself would still be nested under the wider Eastern Ukraine offensive. Edit to clarify: per Applodion below and the rename proposal above, there was already a strong argument that the Kharkiv operations were included in the present understanding of Eastern Ukraine offensive. That debate can be rehashed separately, but as it currently stands "Eastern Ukraine" effectively means "Donbas Region and Kharkiv Oblast". Benjitheijneb (talk) 14:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
    We already include the Kharkiv operations here because our main sources state that the Kharkiv Oblast clashes support the Russian & Ukrainian attacks in the Donbas. It is factually false to call this the "Donbas offensive". Applodion (talk) 11:13, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
    This article does include the fighting in Kharkiv Oblast. Where else could it be included? And geographically speaking, Kharkiv Oblast and the Donbas comprise a single region in Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine. Super Ψ Dro 08:32, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Let me understand... not only do we have a fork article already of this offensive covering most of the fighting happening on its front lines (Battle of Donbas (2022), but there are editors who also want to cut off the only region which sets apart this offensive's and the Battle of Donbas' articles. I would like to know how can the editors supporting this move justify having two separate articles with exactly the same scope and where are we supposed to include the fighting in the Kharkiv Oblast. Fighting in the latter is anyway interrelated with Donbas, the recent fighting in Izium is said to have as an objective to surround Ukrainian forces in the Luhansk and part of Donetsk Oblasts . Super Ψ Dro 08:32, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Allies vs proxies vs regulars

@EkoGraf: You are confusing the terms here; "proxy" not as in proxy war but as per the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3314 (and Rome Statute) definition i.e. "employment of armed irregulars or mercenaries". The term "allies" implies that these forces are independent and that is WP:POV. Recognition by one UN member, especially the aggressor state, does not make them legitimate or universally recognized states. They are not state actors; they are irregulars or mercenaries, if not a mere extension of Russian regulars by now. Hence it should either be "Russia and proxies" or even just "Russia". --Mindaur (talk) 18:35, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Just to back my point with WP:RS, e.g. BBC writes : "His proxy forces seized more than a third of the area after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014". I have seen other descriptions, such as "self-proclaimed republics", but I haven't seen WP:RS calling them "allies". -- Mindaur (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
The terms used by newspapers are often not a good indicator for anything; for example, Western media likes to call the Houthis in Yemen Iranian "proxies", despite the fact that the Houthis have never allowed themselves to become subordinates of Iran. In regards to your arguments: The DNR and LNR troops are not "armed irregulars or mercenaries", even if many people like to call them that. As per academic research, these groups range from militias to regular military quality and work for quasi-states (before you claim bias on my part: I would not call the main army of the Islamic State "armed irregulars or mercenaries" either). Like it or not, the LNR and DNR are, de facto, states. It does not matter that they are vassals of Russia or not recognized by most countries. They are still functioning states, just like, say, Somaliland. Thus, "proxies" is not the correct word to describe DNR and LNR troops. Anyway, "allies" is a quite neutral term which produces none of the baggage associated with "proxies". Applodion (talk) 19:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
I provided you the UN definition and an WP:RS. You provided your interpretation and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT argument. You might have a point, but you still need to back it by WP:RS (that's one of the pillars). I have not seen ANY reliable sources using the term "allies"; moreover, I find such labeling just echoing the Russian propaganda about LPR/DPR being independent states (strong WP:POV). Mindaur (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
No problem: For example, Mark Galeotti (who specializes in researching Putin's Russia), does not call the DNR and LNR forces "proxies" in Armies of Russia's War in Ukraine, a book written to specifically cover the War in Donbas, i.e. the direct precursor of the invasion. Instead, he prefers "rebels" or "separatists". He also uses "allies", although much less. Applodion (talk) 21:24, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
We could also just use "pro-Russian separatists", a term which, as Curbon7 pointed out, is used by almost everyone. Applodion (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
@Applodion: has said it all. I have almost nothing to add. The BBC refers to them as "proxy forces" during the events of 2014 (a period for which I might agree they could be considered proxies), but not during today's events. Also, as Applodion pointed out, even during the 2014-2022 period "proxy" wasn't the exclusive term to describe them (others were used). If we are sticking to WP guidelines, a check should be made what is currently the most common term with which reliable sources describe the DPR and LPR forces and go with that. And yeah, @Curbon7:'s proposal also sounds good. EkoGraf (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
"Separatist" is a standard alternative. Curbon7 (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
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