This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sdrqaz (talk | contribs) at 21:41, 1 June 2022 (→Clarification request: Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.: Addition of statement). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Clarification request: Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.

Initiated by Ypatch at 03:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Ypatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Ypatch

Vanamonde93 (courtesy ping) sanctioned me with a topic ban for my involvement on the People’s Mujahedin of Iran page. I think Vanamonde is a good admin, and I do take responsibility for my flaws as an editor: I could have tried harder to put myself in the other’s shoes, could have tried harder to debate from a more objective perspective instead of nickpicking fallacies or flaws from counter arguments. I have since taken time off from Iranian politics, and really don’t plan to get involved with debating with anyone again or editing on this topic. I would just like to, from time to time, be able to comment on some talk page discussions. I do know a lot about this subject, and think I could help clarify some points citing the literature I’m familiar with, etc. That is what this request is about.

Copied statement by Vanamonde93

@Barkeep49: Apologies: as RP said, I've been travelling, with infrequent internet and little time. I sanctioned Ypatch essentially for displaying a battleground attitude. Before granting an appeal I would want to see evidence that going forward they will be able to engage constructively with users they disagree with within this contentious area. I haven't the time to evaluate whether that's the case, and am happy to leave that to ARBCOM's discretion. I do apologize for not filing the right forms logging the sanction; I do recognize the need for it. Best, Vanamonde (Talk) 20:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Sdrqaz

Worm That Turned, appeals at AE and at AN have occurred. As I noted on my talk page in March, my reading of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions § sanctions.appeals is that further consideration is only allowed here, at ARCA. A strict reading of the text seems to imply that Vanamonde93 is unable to lift the sanction even if they wished, given that it has moved beyond the first stage ("ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision"), and, for that matter, the second. Sdrqaz (talk) 21:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.: Arbitrator views and discussion

• It has not even been three months since this sanction was levied, and the current convention is to wait at least six months before appealing indefinite topic bans; I am not seeing any compelling reason in the request to overrule or otherwise fast-track this. Primefac (talk) 08:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• I agree with Primefac. --BDD (talk) 21:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• What is our precedent about when a sanction has not been logged? Because that's the situation where in here - the sanction was clearly labeled as AE and the editor it applied to clearly understood it, but it wasn't put in the AELOG and I find the policy language confusing on the matter. My guess is that we just fix the missing log and proceed apace in this situation but want to ask that broader question first. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

  Since both the admin and affected user clearly understood, I'm fine fixing the log and reminding the admin. I'd like to think WP:NOTBURO can apply even to DS enforcement. (If either were party were not clear, however, this would be more than a bureaucratic matter.) -- BDD (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah BDD I think you have this right. I have been holding off further comment awaiting comment from Vandamonde. It looks like they were never formally notified, and the ping from Maxim below might be the first they're hearing of it though also their activity has been light recently. I am leaving them a talk page notice as that might generate some attention a ping did not. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  I've been advised that Vanamonde is likely to be unable to reply to this and we should move forward without him. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• I do want to note that Vanamonde93's original note did mention three months as a sort of cool-off period (for lack of a better term). In addition, as Ypatch's edits elsewhere seem productive and considerable, and the appeal is not bad, I'm willing to entertain this appeal, that is, not simply dismiss as too early. @Vanamonde93: I'm interested in any thoughts you may have on the appeal. Maxim_(talk) 19:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
• I'm of the opinion that admins have the discretion to make such calls and absent a good reason, we shouldn't be looking at it. I agree with above that review shouldn't happen in less than 6 months, and I'd rather it was considered at AE, or by the original admin, though I do accept ARCA is a option. Worm(talk) 09:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Clarification request: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts

Initiated by Jayron32 at 13:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Jayron32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• There are no involved parties, but this should be sufficient to notify anyone who was involved in the prior discussion.

Statement by Jayron32

There was a recent ANI case that centered around ambiguity of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts. After some acrimony, the case was solved sufficiently, so I am not naming any parties for this request for clarification, though any commentary from anyone involved with that discussion would be welcome. One of the tangential issues that came up related to some ambiguity of the DS awareness and alert system regarding the 12-month time limit, especially in regards to notifying users who are not active in the area-of-dispute they are being alerted for. The user in question had done some editing back in January in the area, but had not touched it in the intervening months, and was blindsided by a DS-alert template which confused and confounded them; this led to an argument over the placement of the template, some considerable WP:WIKILAWYERing, and some unnecessary name-calling. Eventually, things calmed down, but not until there had been a lot of drama. I feel like a lot of this could have been avoided if there were some better clarification on the appropriate use of DS-alert templates; specifically when is the use of the template authorized, and more importantly when not. I had mistakenly thought that there was some parameters on when it could be placed, but I can't find anything in the guidance; is it really intended that any user can be notified of, and placed under, DS-alert at any time, regardless of whether or not they are, or have ever been, actively editing in one of the DS-targeted areas? If not, what are the parameters of when it is appropriate to use such an alert? Which is to say, how recently should a person have been editing in the targeted area? The past week? Past month? Past year? Ever? Thanks for your attention to, and clarification of, this issue. --Jayron32 13:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@nableezy: It actually isn't a non-event. The DS alert system makes it possible to place someone under the more restrictive sanctions authorized by the DS system; as such it is a form of sanction in itself, regardless of wording to the contrary, since if someone is not notified, they cannot be so sanctioned under DS. Telling someone they are being placed under increased scrutiny for their editing is not a neutral act. --Jayron32 14:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@nableezy: And telling people that has the reasonable potential of raising emotions; as such, we need parameters to define when and when not it is appropriate to leave such notices. --Jayron32 14:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@Zero0000: I agree wholeheartedly that if we had a bot system to do so, it would be much preferable. I also agree that people should not be overreacting to having the notice placed on their page, however they clearly do. This is not a personal issue, it is a systems issue, which is to say that no one should be considered to be at fault here. There is a system in place that has problems, and we need changes to the system to fix it. I am not particularly concerned with assigning any blame in the precipitating event that led me to ask for this clarification; I have intentionally not named any party. BOTH of the people involved acted in good faith, but emotions got high and that could have been avoided had the system we are using been better designed. Bot notifications only, or contawise, clearer guidance on parameters for notifying editors, would help so that good faith editors are not encouraged into conflicts in the future. --Jayron32 14:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: re "Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert, and I've never seen anyone alert someone who hasn't been active at all in the prior year." I have no problem if that is the standard, but if so, the guidance at AC/DS would benefit from such a statement. Without parameters, we have no idea what is and is not appropriate; disagreement due to such ambiguity is a locus for good faith disputes, which can be headed off if we have explicit guidance. I am not particularly privy to other problems with the DS system, I only really started this discussion over a narrowly defined problem. --Jayron32 14:31, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Thank you for your lengthy explanation. Contrary to your statement that your response doesn't deal with my issue directly, I rather find that it does; while I was only asking for a tweak to the guidance offered at the DS system, a complete system overhaul may accomplish the same as part of its loftier goals. Since there appears to be some drafting and discussions already in the works on doing so, maybe this recent situation will inform thoughtful implementation of the new system with the problems in mind. Thanks again! --Jayron32 16:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Selfstudier

I would prefer that all editors be presumed aware if they meet a requirement (eg 500 edits + 30 days). Send out a notice to the talk page of such editors once they qualify explaining that. Then it is only necessary to deal with relatively new editors and they can be covered with the same notification sent manually (by anyone). Maybe this is too simplistic but the current system is dreadful. Selfstudier (talk) 13:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

This is very basic, and yes a whole lot of unnecessary drama. The placing of an informational template, which explicitly disclaims any accusation of wrongdoing, is a non-event. A bot should do it, if you have edited in a topic area covered by discretionary sanctions you should be informed of the sanctions, full stop. Calling that harassment, when it is one edit giving a required notification, is asinine and borders on gaslighting when coupled with actually harassing claims and insults. If a user has a history, any history, of activity that would merit a trip to AE, including edit-warring or personal attacks, they should be informed of the sanctions. So that if that occurs in the future it may be reported to AE rather than the circus of ANI. And if you do not want a notification, place the freaking awarness template on your talk page. You can do it in a hidden comment and it won't even display the banner. nableezy - 13:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Jayron32, yes being aware means one can be taken to AE and not ANI and be subject to discretionary sanctions. It is still a non-event, the topic area as a whole is already covered by the sanctions. Ensuring that all participants are aware of those rules that already apply to them is not telling someone they are being placed under increased scrutiny for their editing, it is telling them that when they edit in a specific topic area their editing is already placed under increased scrutiny. It is informational, not threatening. That is why the alert says This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date. It is specifically tailored to not be anything more than informing a user of sanctions that are already in effect. Yes, if you violate them at that point you may be reported to AE. Ok, and? nableezy - 14:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Jayron32, Im fine with some clarity on if or when an alert should be placed, and I appreciate the way you brought this without blaming anybody, but I also dispute that "raised emotions" is anything close to a reasonable reaction to being informed of sanctions already in place. If you dont want the notification on your talk page, revert it. If you dont want to receive another one, place the awareness. nableezy - 15:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000

With due respect to Jayron32, experienced editors are not "blindsided" by receiving DS-alerts. Whether clarifications to the rules are needed, I'm not sure. Perhaps bringing together the disparate bits into one statement would help. However, DS-alerts exist for a good reason and it must not be the case that delivering them is something a good faith editor only undertakes with trepidation. A objective system would be a bot that delivers an alert to any editor who edits a page with a DS template but hasn't received an alert in the past 12 months and doesn't have the DS-aware template. With that system, I will get one every year and that's just fine. Zero 14:18, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Having thought about this a little more, I would add "and the relevant arbcom ruling has been changed since the last alert notice" to the criteria for a bot-delivered alert. I don't think that would be a good addition for human-delivered alerts though, as it is an unnecessary burden to check. Zero 06:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Firefangledfeathers

The deep background on this is that the DS awareness system is broken. Sending good vibes to whoever is currently working on the reforms. In the meantime, I don't think the timing issue at hand needs explicit clarification. Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert, and I've never seen anyone alert someone who hasn't been active at all in the prior year.

I have a separate request for clarification related to the same dispute. WP:AWARE's criterion #2 says "They have ever been sanctioned within the area of conflict (and at least one of such sanctions has not been successfully appealed)", but it's not clear whether a revoked sanction that wasn't appealed fulfills the criterion or not. I doubt there are many sanctions removed without appeal, but there's been at least one, and confusion over the awareness status was a part of this dispute. Can we tweak the criterion to say "and at least one of such sanctions has not been revoked"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I think Jayron32's point in response to me is a good one. Though I think clarification won't reduce out-of-process alerts, it might lead to quicker resolution of conduct disputes. I'm in favor of a change to the documentation at Template:Ds/alert along the lines of:

"Users editing these pages who have edited these pages within the last year may be alerted that discretionary sanctions are in effect."

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Jip Orlando

First of all, thank you to Jayron32 for bringing this here. I closed the ANI thread as the discussion had moved from being productive to having a strong heat>light ratio as an uninvolved editor. For some personal background, I had notified Levivich of a DS alert in 2020 regarding infoboxes here: as I honestly could not tell if he was aware of the drama that had plagued that topic area. He 'thank'ed me for the notification. The next day, an IP editor with no other few other edits posed a DS-aware template on my talk page: . I took no offense but I think it is reasonable to assume, based on my participation in the topic area that I was aware, even without the template. Maybe the template can be softened? It already says, as Nableezy says above, that wrongdoing is not assumed. I intentionally stay away from the hornets' nest that is AMPOL, IPA, PIA, and the other 'alphabet soup' sanction areas. The challenge lies in the wording that an editor must be notified of DS. And I get why- there is extensive precedent that an area has been problematic. These templates, as noted above, are good for new editors that may not be aware of problems. Most established editors who read the dramah areas will be aware without seeing a DS template with the draconian scales of justice on their talk page. Further clarification is necessary and possible investigation needed on the effectiveness of these templates. Maybe encouraging editors to place the DS-aware template on their talkpage to avoid the drama? The current system is impersonal and sometimes insulting, as seen in the ANI thread. Perhaps loosening the yearly awareness criterion and moving to a one-off? Talk page histories are rarely deleted and it is easy to find the diff of when a notification was sent. We could also have a bot do it, which removes the personal grudges and the HAHA, GOTCHA! nature of these notifications, especially when it comes from one established editor to another. In sum, my thoughts are:

• Change the wording of the DS templates to something softer.
• Change the yearly awareness criterion to a one-time notification being sufficient.
• Have a bot do it. I worry though, that this becomes a bit bureaucratic. Notification for notification's sake without understanding the nuances involved.

This is tricky and often a sore spot for editors. Thanks, Jip Orlando (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Sideswipe9th

While the bot idea sounds promising in theory, in practice it is less so. Many of our discretionary sanctions pages are only considered so due to "broadly construed". While a human editor can make the determination as to whether or not a specific article is within the scope of one or more relevant sanctions, that isn't feasible for bot. In order for a bot to function, lists of articles would need to be created and maintained, one for each sanction area, with new articles added as they are created or at some point enter the scope of a sanction, and others being removed as they are deleted or leave the scope of a sanction. While an alternative to a public facing list might be for the bot to scan/read for a ds/talk notice on an article's talk page, not all articles that are within the scope of a sanction have been tagged as such. Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Rosguill

Based on my experience at AE and in DS areas, I think that a one-time notification for a given DS, rather than a yearly notification, seems appropriate for any sanction regime that does not have a built-in sunset date and which has not been amended since the last notification. Now, as I type this, I recognize that cases where the regime has been amended since the last notification could present a thorny edge case, but it would at least have allowed us to dodge this instance of Nableezy v. Levivich. _signed, Rosguill 14:57, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Newimpartial

I support Rosgull's proposal for "perma-awareness" once an editor is AWARE of a particular DS area: this would seem to remove the major irritants of the current system, which in my view consist of (i) editors becoming annoyed at new templated reminders after a year has passed (although they are unwilling to template themselves as ds-aware, which would avoid this annoyance, for whatever reason), and (ii) editors evading sanctions thanks to expired awareness templates - the scenario that gives rise to the renewed notifications, which in turn gives rise to (i).

It seems to me that the one possible drawback of this proposal - that arising from changes to the scope of DS areas - could be substantially mitigated by some form of automagical notification when the scope of a sanction area changes. This might not be possible, as things stand, in the case of editors who are deemed to be aware, for example, due to their participation in AE discussion on a certain DS topic. That anomaly might be a reason to change the overall awareness procedure slightly, so that editors who are "deemed aware" have to receive the template on their user Talk after their awareness has been noted: they were already aware as of the date and time of their AE participation in the topic area, but the template is used as a marker so that the systems can detect its presence in the user Talk history and generate a notice of the change of the DS topic's scope, should that happen.

It seems to me that whatever small advantage there might actually be in "reminding" editors of DS areas annually is substantially outweighed by the irritants (i) and (ii) I noted above; the existence of the DS-aware template also already nullifies this supposed advantage for a non-trivial population of editors. Newimpartial (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Peter Gulutzan

Re "Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert ..." I'd hope that would be a minimal justification since I've recently seen what appears to be an administrator's alert after a single climate-change comment on a talk page (I'll point to the discussion and ping the parties if someone thinks that's dubious). It would enhance if the third sentence was "You have shown interest in three or more times in the last twelve months." If it's false that doesn't invalidate the alert, but the recipient (per later in the DS/alert message) can query "What edits? Prove it", which makes it more trouble to issue alerts without prior research. The twelve-month expiry is good for the same reason. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:53, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by isaacl

User:Jayron32, as alluded to by Barkeep49, there has been a review of the discretionary sanctions procedures underway since 2021. I hope that the forthcoming proposal will include something like the one-time alert I suggested, explaining how discretionary sanctions work and telling the editor how to find out for themselves if a page is subject to discretionary sanctions. isaacl (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Aircorn

Not seeing a lot wrong with the situation. If you don't want warnings add the temlpate saying you are aware, if you don't want the template and want to edit controversial areas then getting a warning a year is not a major problem. It would be great if there was an automated way to send out these messages as it invariably ends up being someone who is at odds with the editor who places the notice and often this just inflames the situation. Having a bot do it would take away alot of the personilisation. Aircorn (talk) 06:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

Jayron - I saw this after I posted this response at ANI so it is now posted here. It also triggers a filter that states the user is already aware, and advises not to post another. The remedy for these issues has already been passed by ArbCom. Users simply have to take advantage of it. Atsme 💬 📧 14:18, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Aquillion's comment below, re: new users not knowing about DS, or its complexities. Keep in mind that DS affected articles have notice/warning banners in edit view and on the article TP that are pretty hard to miss. If a new user ignores them, I doubt a UTP notice will have much of an effect. I support rewording the template to reflect a more welcoming, educational approach with a link to instructions about adding the perm awareness notice at the top of their UTP, (and allow it to be designed to fit their page as is DS Aware Notice) which triggers the filter showing all DS topic areas. But, notice or not, the subsequent treatment new users can probably expect if they're on the wrong side of WP's systemic bias can be even scarier, or at least discouraging – I've mentored a few. Unfortunately, baiting & bullying tactics tend to incite new users unfamiliar with community norms, and are effectively used to drive opposition from a topic area. While DS/AE makes the latter a tad easier to accomplish, ArbCom should consider focusing more on that behavior along with expressed concerns about WP:POV creep, POV pushers, and first user advantage. We don't always get the unbiased close we expect from an RfC, it happens, but even worse is when those on the wrong side of WP's systemic bias are subjected to disproportionate AE actions, more so when it's done unilaterally. The issues with DS-AE, especially those involving WP:POV creep, continue without an effective remedy, but I remain cautiously optimistic that the current ArbCom will indeed effect much needed improvements. Atsme 💬 📧 12:45, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

The system of formal DS notices is really, really bad. It encourages hostility and presumptions of bad faith, making conflicts more rancorous rather than encouraging constructive editing. The core problem is that sending someone a formal DS notice is seen as (and, in fact, is) a hostile act. To a new editor, it is a big scary notice, no matter how carefully it says that it doesn't imply wrongdoing. Even to an editor who understands the underlying system, it is often a blunt statement that the person posting it believes that bringing the target to AE will eventually be necessary. Nor do they actually convey anything helpful - a new user will not know our default standards and therefore will have no context for how AE topic areas alter them; an experienced user should have at least a general sense that touchy areas are handled more strictly. And when taking someone to AE is necessary it sometimes leads to people who were obviously aware of what they were doing wrong and the high-scrutiny nature of the articles they were editing getting off on a technicality.

Nothing about it works the way it should. And it is totally, completely unnecessary - should editors get some degree of warning? Sure, but we manage WP:3RR (which generally requires some degree of warning or awareness) just fine without a formal system; administrators are very capable of judging for themselves whether someone was given adequate notice. The prerequisite to bringing anyone anywhere, including AE, is to make some effort to talk it out first; the templates are not a substitute for that. The requirement should be removed, and the relevant templates should be deleted and salted against recreation. They're terrible things that are causing serious damage to no benefit whatsoever.

Regarding the suggestion above that people can opt-out of the templates - that is no use at all to new users (for whom a scary template, usually delivered by someone they are in the middle of a hot dispute with, is going to be the most harmful.) And it does not answer the underlying problem that the templates serve no useful purpose; we manage just fine without such a formal system everywhere else. They were devised years ago when AE was a rare exception, by experienced editors who didn't want to trip over this new set of rules. None of that applies anymore - AE is a longestanding well-established part of our existing rules and should be treated the same way, not with these hostile WP:BITE-y messages. --Aquillion (talk) 08:12, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Newyorkbrad

I'm briefly commenting here because Barkeep49 mentioned me below.

The discretionary sanctions system started to evolve the year before I first joined ArbCom (2008). As noted, I pointed out many times then and thereafter that because topic-areas under DS were subject to different rules from other topic-areas, and some pages in those topic-areas were subject to more specific rules still, it would be unfair to sanction editors for violating rules that they were unaware of. In other words, if an editor was reported to AE or otherwise chided about a DS violation, and credibly responded along the lines of "I never heard of the rule you're telling me I just violated," the proper response would be educational, at most a warning rather than a block—especially where the challenged edits would have been permissible if made in non-DS areas.

"If there's doubt about awareness, warn first" was intended as a principle of fairness rooted in common sense. It has now, however, morphed into what an arbitrator once called "our body of 'awareness law'", and the complexity of the rule-set has long since reached the point of self-parody. The whole superstructure should probably be done away with, and replaced with the simpler original principle that if an editor credibly claims for the first time that he or she was unaware of a given restriction, the appropriate initial response is a notification rather than a sanction. This should cause few problems, because after being advised, the editor will necessary either (1) violate the DS rules again, in which case action could then be taken, or (2) not violate the DS rules again, in which case the problem is solved.

The overcomplexity of the DS regime is an example of a broader Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia-wide problem. That problem is well-discussed in this article from a few years ago. As it happens, the article was written by a current member of the WMF Board of Trustees, which as was recently discussed on a mailing list, is suffering from some governance-process hypertrophy of its own—thereby helping to illustrate how pervasive and intractable this movement-wide type of dysfunction seems to be.

On the specifics of DS awareness, I am sure I am overlooking some fine points: I have admittedly become somewhat jaded after participating in these discussions for 15 years. My ex-colleagues and successors have my best wishes for cleaning up the mess, one which I'm sure I played some part in helping to create. In the meantime, the system should be administered with as much common sense as English Misplaced Pages is capable of ... which I realize, in my old wiki-age, is not always as much as it ought to be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:06, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I have thoughts and admittedly they're going to address what I think should be rather than strictly what is now because I think we need to be making changes here. The next person familiar with awareness (even at a cursory level) who thinks our current rules are working will be the first I know of. Beyond that, this appeal also deals with the reality that our alert templates don't feel good to receive, regardless of what may be the bolded text may say. In the DS reform that L235 and I drafted last year we attempted to deal with both of these issues.For AWARENESS, what I believe should happen is that the current AWARENESS criteria be replaced with an appealable presumption of awareness following an initial alert in a topic area. Often what's happening with DS is that the rules being broken are not special rules of DS but broader Misplaced Pages rules that are being enforced more rigorously (both in what it takes for there to be a sanction and how stringent the sanction is). So it's fair, as Newyorkbrad has eloquently pointed out on more than one occasion, to make sure editors know this system exists before they're subjected to it. But if we're saying some version of "DS are Misplaced Pages rules, just more so", and I believe we should be saying that, I also don't think we need to twist ourselves into knots about a person being aware beforehand. They shouldn't have been doing what they were doing in the first place before getting a DS sanction. There's a reason that things like 1RR are expected to be accompanied by things like page notices but also editors shouldn't be edit warring and having a different brightline (1 vs 3) doesn't change that core expectation, to pick one example. By explicitly noting that lack of AWARENESS is appealable we also provide a safeguard. This is especially true because I support lowering the level of consensus required for a successful appeal from "clear and substantial consensus" to "clear consensus" and in providing clear standards of review for appeals.If we're going to presume AWARENESS we do need to make sure that the alerts we're giving work. So I believe there should be new template language, including standardized section headers and that only an UNINVOLVED editor or administrator may place an alert. There is a tension between scaring off editors and getting them pay attention to a template. I believe the name DS itself should change to be more informative and hopefully less scary and confusing. To further help, I believe we should use a two-template solution. A template the editor gets when they first start editing DS (in any topic), and get their first alert, should be an introduction which truly explains DS. It should have pre-designated section headings rather than whatever name an particular editor decides. They would then get a shorter alert when they first start editing other DS areas reminding them that DS exists and that this new area is also covered by the DS rules. Beyond that there should be some recognition that the alert is always going to feel somewhat like a rebuke, hence the change to only allow subsequent alerts to be placed by an UNINVOLVED editor and by providing a place that editors getting an alert may ask questions of 3rd parties instead of just the person who placed the template.There are a lot more details that go with all this and some more explanations that go with all this. I hope that the current DS drafters, L235, Captain Eek, and Wugapodes, will choose to bring forward something close to what I've outlined above as I think it's responsive to what we heard from a number of editors during our DS consultation. I will again acknowledge that I don't really address what Jayron is asking here because I think providing those answers for a system that needs change is less productive than just doing the changes that should happen. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
• We do need to acknowledge that Misplaced Pages of 2008 when DS was introduced was a different world to today, and has gone through a lot of evolution over that period. I think that the principle that someone should not be sanctioned for something they credibly didn't realise was wrong is a good one, and should be brought forward. However, I do agree that the monolith of DS AWARENESS is overkill in its bureaucracy and complexity. We're in the process of DS reform, and I hope that this will be taken into account. However, I'm not sure that anything needs to be done here, and now, more than letting this ARCA help influence the ongoing reform. Worm(talk) 09:21, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

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