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Strayacj

@Strayacj: Both Hanfu and Xianbei clothing influenced Korean clothing. Xianbei influence is not a valid excuse to remove the content here. Esiymbro (talk) 10:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Esiymbro: any sources? The origin of official costumes is not Hanfu, the costume of the Han Chinese. It is clear that Korean royal official costumes in the past were influenced by China, such as the Tang and Ming Dynasty, but Hanbok does not mean official costumes and you have to distinguish between official and casual clothing. In addition, official costumes are not the origins of the Han Chinese, but the Xianbei. Hanfu was only the clothes of the people of the Han Dynasty, or it was to distinguish between the costumes of other ethnic groups and the costumes of the Han Chinese.

  1. No one here is saying that Korean costumes originated from Hanfu, but that they are influenced by it.
  2. Have you actually read the content you reverted? If that is not enough, there are dozens of sourced statements on Hanfu influence on Hanbok at the article Hanbok and other related articles. The burden is on you to find sources to support your own history revisionist claim that Hanfu did not have any influence whatsoever on Hanbok. Esiymbro (talk) 11:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Esiymbro: Please present it based on historical records. And since culture is interacting with each other, it cannot be said that Hanfu necessarily influenced Hanbok. Again, the concept of hanbok is not official clothes, but casual clothes. The concept of Hanfu also means the clothes worn by the people of Han Dynasty, and Hanfu was also influenced by the costumes of various ethnic groups. If so, how would you explain that Goryeo's hanbok influenced Hanfu of the late Yuan Dynasty and the early Ming Dynasty? 可以拿过来历史文献上的记载啊

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- 漢裳蠻，本漢人部種，在鐵橋。惟以朝霞纏頭，餘尚同漢服 《新唐书》 Strayacj (talk) 11:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

It appears that this discussion is origins vs influences. The Xianbei influence and contribution is important in the development of Han Chinese identity and Han Chinese clothing; content should not be removed just because some clothing were initially introduced by other ethnics.

  1. Ethnically speaking, the Xianbei and the Han dynasty Chinese were indeed different. However, the Xianbei and other nomadic groups which entered China during the Sixteen dynasties period became "Han people" after more than 100 years. According to Charles Holcombe, "Many descendants of the Xianbei and of the other non-Chinese groups who had ruled north China from 304 until 581 had lost their separate identities and simply became Chinese during the Tang era. The term 'Han,' which had first begun to be used as an ethnic label to distinguish the conquered subject population ruled by the Xianbei elites during the Northern Wei Dynasty, came to refer to all of the people of the Tang dynasty."

The royal courts in Korea introduced Chinese court clothing, which may explain why some Koreans do not seem to perceive those clothing as Hanbok but rather dubbed them as Gwanbok. However, some clothing which was originally (or hypothesized to have been) of Chinese origins are still considered as Hanbok nowadays.

For Hanfu, this is different because court, official, casual and commoner clothing can be considered Han Chinese. The Court official clothing of the Han Chinese ruled dynasties can be considered as Hanfu because it diverted from its initial Xianbei origins.

  1. The court official clothing (i.e. the one with round collars) designed by the Imperial court of Han Chinese ruled dynasties has both the influences of the Xianbei and the Chinese.
  2. The Xianbei contributed by introducing the round collared robe with tight sleeves as an outerwear in the Central plains; this in turn provided the court official's robe basic shape (i.e. round collar).
  3. The Han Chinese contributed by turning a round-collared robe into an official robe which adheres to a strict hierarchichal system and societal norms: developing the clothing systems for officials through imperial edicts, regulating the colours based on social ranking (品色服), adding social ranking badges in some dynasties. The round collared robes evolved with time in China to the point that they are structurally different from those initially introduced by the Xianbei (e.g. loose sleeves, wide and large sleeves, pipa sleeves depending on the time period; decorations and colour system to indicate ranks). Those structural changes and the implementation of a clothing system are Chinese innovations, designed by the Han Chinese.

On the influence of Goryeo hanbok on Hanfu during late Yuan and early Ming. The term Goryeoyang was dubbed in the late Yuan dynasty, it means "Goryeo style" but it can be a lot of things, including Goryeoyang clothing. This subject however does not seem to be widely studied in English sources (it is very hard to come across some sources). Most research/books talk about the influence of Mongol fashion in Yuan on the Chinese, not Goryeo. Some sources talk vaguely on the popularity of Goryeoyang in the Mongol Court but not much outside the court; they do not discuss the influence on Han Chinese clothing (Mongol were different from the Han; their clothing were also different; in Yuan, Han Chinese could wear Mongol or Han clothing); moreover, there is not much information on the description/ appearance of Goryeoyang-fashion.

  1. There is one study in English by Kim et al (2015); the authors says that the Goryeoyang female clothing was common in the court (i.e. Mongol court) because there were many Goryeo women who served. The Goryeoyang clothing was found in the court dress (i.e. Mongol court) at the end of Yuan court (Empress Gi only became first empresses in 1365 and Yuan ended in 1368). The authors clearly says that it is a square-collared (banryeong) banbi (half-sleeves) (方領過腰半臂) which was short compared to the ones worn by the Mongols which were long and narrow. The authors also added a modern interpretation of Goryeoyang clothing in the paper which can be seen here: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Goryeoyang-and-Mongolpung-in-the-13th%E2%80%9314th-Kim-Lee/00eb328be57a608854ff337aaa2d6a9216584c58/figure/0 (The square collar banbi); this illustration come from the a Korean study by Choi (2007). The illustration appears to be itself based on an old poem from Yuan (no visual artefacts of Goryeoyang fashion in Yuan?).
  2. This is also the only description of Goryeoyang clothing which can be found in the entire study. Based on this study, we do not know how influential Goryeoyang female clothing was throughout the entire country or how influential it was on Han Chinese people.
  3. Not much information is known on the continuity of Goryeoyang clothing influence in the Ming. A direct quote from a book by Park (2021), "Like the Mongolian style, it is possible that this Koryo style continued to influence some Chinese in the Ming period after the Ming dynasty replaced the Yuan dynasty, a topic to investigate further"
  4. In Ming, there was a popular form of skirt called maweiqun (马尾裙, lit. 'horse-tail skirt'), also known as faqun (发裙). The maweiqun was initially introduced from Joseon (Not Goryeo). It was not popular in the early Ming but in the Mid-Ming from the reign of Chenghua to Hongzhi (1465~1505). Therefore it cannot be referred as Goryeoyang clothing by definition. It was also an exotic fashion in Ming rather than Chinese. Therefore, it is not included as Hanfu.

In conclusion, more research should be done to understand the extent of Korean influence on Hanfu whether it is from Goryeo or Joseon. Perhaps more research can be found in Korean or Chinese sources, but in English, it is very limited. On the other hand, most (if not all) English sources cited in this article clearly states than Hanbok was influenced by Chinese clothing. They do not use the term Gwanbok. BTW The term hanfu means Han Chinese clothing, not Han dynasty clothing.

  1. Zhang, Qizhi (2015). An introduction to Chinese history and culture. Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg. p. 131. ISBN 9783662464823.
  2. Holcombe, Charles (2017). A history of East Asia : from the origins of civilization to the twenty-first century (Second ed.). Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. p. 100. ISBN 9781107118737.
  3. Kim, Jinyoung; Lee, Jaeyeong; Lee, Jongoh (2015). ""GORYEOYANG" AND "MONGOLPUNG" in the 13th-14th CENTURIES". Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae. 68 (3): 281–292. ISSN 0001-6446.
  4. Park, Hyunhee (2021). Soju : a global history. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. p. 125. ISBN 9781108842013.
  5. Baghdiantz McCabe, Ina (2015). A history of global consumption : 1500-1800. New York: Taylor & Francis. p. 178. ISBN 9781317652656.
  6. Huang, Y (2021). Contesting Chineseness : ethnicity, identity, and nation in China and Southeast Asia. Singapore: Springer Singapore. p. 298. ISBN 9789813360969.
  7. Ho, Wei (2009). "Modern Meaning of Han Chinese Clothing" (PDF). Journal of the Korea Fashion and Costume Design Association. 11 (1): 99–109.

Gyuligula2 (talk) 04:08, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

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