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This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.

General Concerns and Questions Q1: John Hanson was actually the first president. A1: John Hanson was the first President of the Continental Congress to serve a term under the Articles of Confederation. This office is different from President of the United States, which was only created after the US Constitution took effect in 1789.
  • Related Talk discussions: , , , ,
Q2: __________ was acting president for a short time, why isn't he on the list? A2: A period during which a vice-president or other person temporarily becomes Acting President under the Twenty-fifth Amendment is not a presidency, because the president remains in office during such a period.
  • Related Talk discussions: , ,
Q3: Grover Cleveland is listed twice, William McKinley was actually the 24th president. A3: Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms, so while McKinley was in fact the 24th person to serve as president, Cleveland was both the 22nd and 24th president. Or another way: the next president after Benjamin Harrison was the 24th president. It should also be noted that almost all reference materials enumerate Cleveland in this way.
  • Related Talk discussions: , , ,
Q4: Harry Truman's middle name was "S". Since it's not an initial, it should not have the period after it. A4: Harry Truman's middle name was in fact S; however, most reference materials still use the period. Truman himself signed his own name as "Harry S. Truman". Both with or without the period may be regarded as correct.
  • Related Talk discussions: , , ,
Q5: Democratic is an adjective. Presidents of this party should be listed as the noun, "Democrat". A5: The correct name of the political party is the Democratic Party. In this case, the adjective is used to describe the party, which is what the list is showing. Note that Democrat Party can be seen as an epithet - see Democrat Party (epithet).
  • Related Talk discussions:
Q6: Please add another column to the list for ___________. A6: Every effort was made to show the most sought-after information in a concise table. Those interested in president lists based on other criteria should see Template:Lists of US Presidents and Vice Presidents.
  • Related Talk discussions: , , , , , ,
Q7: I have an issue with one of the pictures used. A7: It is recommended that the same picture from the president's individual article infobox be used on this list by default. However, any clear view of the face will work since the pictures are so small. Keep in mind that some images on external sites may be subject to copyright, and therefore difficult to bring into Misplaced Pages. If you have a specific concern about an image, feel free to discuss it here.
  • Related Talk discussions: , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Former featured listList of presidents of the United States is a former featured list. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page and why it was removed. If it has improved again to featured list standard, you may renominate the article to become a featured list.
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March 3, 2021Peer reviewReviewed
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Lead image

See #Request for comments: table structure and the lead image below (to avoid split discussions/duplication/missed posts/general confusion, etc.) - wolf 00:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The infobox from the lead was (correctly) removed by Drdpw. Any suggestions what should be the lead image, or should we have one? I suggested a collage of 3 "important" presidents (Washington, Lincoln, and FDR), along with the current president (example pictured). What else? Just the current president? The White House? Mount Rushmore? – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I would support the image collage, which provides a widely agreed view of the most important presidents and has both political-party diversity and historical diversity. This would follow the practice of many similar lists at FL, showing a clear precedent for some an approach. I would distantly support Mount Rushmore for similar reasons, but the choices of presidents there is imo not as historically objective in importance, most blatantly by the inclusion of T Roosevelt over FDR (though to be fair to the sculptor FDR had not been president at that point). Aza24 (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I think the example from List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom (a featured list) can be adapted here, although I'm not sure whether four is the right number. Possibly six makes more sense, adding Cleveland as the only president to appear twice and Obama as the first African-American president? See the mock-up I made. Regards SoWhy 17:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I will support which ever (4 or 6) gets a consensus, though I am concerned that including Obama as also a recent Democrat over recent Republications might result in objections from others. Aza24 (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Either may work, but my preference would be 4, not just because of the above mentioned reason by Aza24, but also because the 4 images collage has presidents from 4 difference centuries (18th, 19th, 20th, 21st) representing the officeholders in different periods of time. The 6 one has 2 presidents from 19th century, and 2 presidents from the last 10 years, which might be a bit recentism. Still, either may work if it gets consensus. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:47, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I didn't really consider those things, I just thought it might be good to have more examples of presidents who are especially notable. We could replace Obama with Nixon who was the only one to resign in office? Unlike in the UK, both serving non-consecutive terms and resigning are unique occurrences (so far). I'm open to other suggestions as well. Regards SoWhy 19:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
NO LEAD IMAGE, please. We've enough images on this & its corresponding veep list article. Biden's lead image at the President of the United States article, is enough. GoodDay (talk) 22:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
South lawn
Mt. Rushmore
Magic Kingdom
How about The White House? Or Mount Rushmore? Or the full POTUS line-up at the Hall of Presidents from Disney World? Or... just leave it at is. There is already an image of every single president, why would the page need any more? - wolf 00:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Because the lead image is the first thing a reader sees. It makes visual appeal, and it is common for articles to have a lead image (per WP:LEADIMAGE). As mentioned above, similar lists for other countries have a collage in the lead; it gives a broad outline of the list to the reader. I can't think of any possible disadvantage to a reader if this list has a lead image. Can you specify a few? – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 07:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Were the lead section brief, I would be fine with no lead image, as images abound in the article. (I am not moved much by the argument: "similar lists for other countries have a collage in the lead.") In this instance, however, a list article with a large lead section, some sort of lead image or image collage would visual appeal. So, how best to give a natural and appropriate representation of the topic? For comparison, List of burial places ... uses a picture of Washington's Tomb at the U.S. Capitol; List of ... died in office has an image collage of the eight who died in office plus the (contemporary) presidential seal, but then no portraits in the body. Historical rankings of ... uses Mt. Rushmore. Of the two image collages suggested above, I like the 4-person set which highlights the nation's three historically most highly regarded presidents plus the current president. More than this number and the gallery could appear more like a trivia collage rather than a lead image. Regarding single images, Mt. Rushmore could work here, as could the White House. Another option (drawing upon the Hall of Presidents image) is to use a "most living presidents" group photo. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I would vote in favor of the White House. I'm not a big fan of collages like this because it duplicates the same images in the lead and table, but there should be some image. Reywas92 01:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
There are numerous group photos of various presidents in the Commons. A photo of, for example, George H. W. Bush, George W. Bush, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama could work. Drdpw (talk) 03:42, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
We already have images of 45 people in this article. Why clutter it by adding duplicates of some of them, at the top? GoodDay (talk) 09:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citations for life years

Surely you don't need citations for life years (eg for 1732-1799) in the table itself? It just makes the white space in the cell bigger. Rousillon (talk) 00:06, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

It is the best practice to have a citation for everything on WP, and the only thing affecting the white space of the cell is the size of the portraits. If anything, those citations are reducing the whitespace by filling it with a reference. Aza24 (talk) 00:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Not every single fact needs to be individually cited. If we can cite all this information to a single or few references, we should do so, in the column header. --Golbez (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
If have life years in the table, they need to be cited, whether individually or in the column header. And I don't see how the individual citations are increasing the white space. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:19, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Agree with the OP and Golbez. This is a list article, and there has been a long-standing, widely accepted practice across the project on such articles that when list entries with basic facts are linked to a parent article, then additional refs aren't usually required. For example, the Washington entry has the dates 1732-1799, and the entry is linked to the bio on Washington, which also has those dates and supports them with refs there, which is usually accepted as sufficient. That said, if there is a way to help fill up needless whitespace, then why not use it. But refs are not absolutely required. (JMHO) - wolf 05:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
I respect your viewpoint but I have to humbly disagree. A long standing, widely accepted practice does not mean it is a correct practice. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability states: "All content must be verifiable" . The same policy also states not to use "articles from Misplaced Pages ... as sources since Misplaced Pages is considered as a user-generated source ... Content from a Misplaced Pages article is not considered reliable unless it is backed up by citing reliable sources. Confirm that these sources support the content, then use them directly." So this makes me believe that references are absolutely required, whether individual citations or a single source supporting all of that. Regardless, the citations are reducing the whitespace. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Doesn't mean it's incorrect either. Wp:v is satisfied by the linked article as long as the specific content in that article is supported. The linked article itself is not being used as ref (even though that is permitted per wp:cw), it's being used as a wikilink to support a table entry which, as I said, is a widely used practice , and one interpretation of a guideline doesn't necessarily negate all that. But that said, I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree. - wolf 21:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
No, we certainly don't need to have a source for the birth/death dates. The entries are linked to their respective bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
It is worth noting that the election years are supported by the ANB refs, and nothing else, so we do in fact need them. Aza24 (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, ANB supports election years, the birth years and the death years. And I think similar kind of citations exist in the List of vice presidents of the United States as well (that was before I added citations in the article.) – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

FL?

I looked at the 2021 peer review and implemented some of the edits in it. Now the article seems fairly well structured according to the criteria:

  • Prose: checkY Looks good.
  • Lead: checkY Great!
  • Comprehensiveness: checkY Good for all three.
  • Structure: checkY Yep.
  • Style: checkY Yea.
  • Stability: checkY Yes.

Do you agree that, after 13 years, is good enough to be re-nominated for FL status? interstatefive  16:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I do think that the list is good enough, but it should not be nominated for FL status until we have a consensus for the structure of the list (#Post-post-close discussion) and the lead image (#Lead image). It is usually the editors who have worked on the list nominate it for FL status, drive-by nominations are not appreciated. That being said, I am interested in nominating it for FL status and have worked on the citations. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:14, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I know about drive-by nominations and how they are discouraged, but I asked and the answer was that an editor who has worked little on the article can still nominate for FL if they ask editors who frequent the article. That is what I am doing. interstatefive  21:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't mean to discourage you, but currently, the structure and style criteria are not fulfilled as there is an ongoing discussion regarding it. That even makes stability criteria just partly fulfilled. Also, there are few formatting changes left, which means that it should not be nominated in the current status. That being said, the list definitely has potential to be a FL and I'll keep working on the remaining issues. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Request for comments: table structure and the lead image

Please consider joining the feedback request service.
An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

This request for comments is broadly for two question relating to this list:

  1. the table structure
  2. the lead image.

Both these issues have been previously discussed in above section, § Post-post-close discussion and § Lead image. There is no clear consensus among the talk page watchers for the lead image, and the table structure needs a broad discussion.

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

1: Table structure

In December 2021, a RfC was started for various questions regarding this list, including the issue of table sortability. The discussion was closed in early 2022 with a rough consensus to implement sortability without other modifications in the table. A few editors, however, noted that sortability without other modifications causes the feature to duplicate presidents (as depicted in this image). The last month, an alternative table structure was proposed by me, which is roughly a combination of the three examples proposed in the previous RfC and it does not duplicate presidents. It was suggested that a RfC be started to have a broad discussion on the issue.

Alternative table proposed
Thomas E. Dewey for President
Thomas E. Dewey's campaign logo stating "Dewey in 48".
Campaign1948 Republican primaries
1948 United States presidential election
CandidateThomas E. Dewey
47th Governor of New York
(1943–1954)
Earl Warren
30th Governor of California
(1943–1953)
AffiliationDemocratic Party
StatusAnnounced: January 16, 1948
Official nominee: June 25, 1948
Lost election: November 2, 1948
HeadquartersAlbany, New York
SloganDew it with Dewey
Win with Dewey
In 1948, Thomas E. Dewey and Earl Warren ran an unsuccessful campaign for president and vice president of the United States. They were defeated by Democratic president Harry S. Truman, and his vice presidential nominee Alben W. Barkley. Dewey, a former Republican presidential nominee and the 47th Governor of New York announced his candidacy for election on January 16, 1948. He was challenged in the Republican primaries by Harold Stassen, Robert A. Taft and other minor candidates. Although he won just two contest with 12% of the popular vote in the primaries, he was the widely expected to win the nomination.

Background

Main article: Thomas E. Dewey
Thomas Dewey in 1944
Dewey in 1944

Thomas E. Dewey was born in Owosso, Michigan, in 1902. He studied Law at the University of Michigan Law School in Ann Arbor, Michigan. He arrived in New York in 1923, and started his professional career in 1925, as a clerk in the Law office of Larkin, Rathbone & Perry. After being a Federal Prosecutor and a Special prosecutor at a relatively young age, he gained popularity In January 1937, Dewey successfully prosecuted Tootsie Herbert, the leader of New York's poultry racket, and held him guilty for embezzlement. Following Dewey's success in conviction of Herbert, The Montgomery Advertiser labelled him as "a man of destiny", and he became a potential candidate for Attorney General of New York. In 1937, Dewey was nominated as the Republican candidate for Manhattan District Attorney, and defeated his Democratic opponent—Harold Hastings, by a margin of over 100,000 votes. During his tenure as the Manhattan District Attorney, Dewey successfully prosecuted and convicted Richard Whitney, former president of the New York Stock Exchange, for embezzlement. A young girl once said that she can sue god and win, if Dewey is her lawyer.

Dewey was nominated as the gubernatorial candidate for the 1938 New York state election. At the age of 36, he was one of the youngest gubernatorial candidate; the Democratic governor Herbert H. Lehman won his re-election, narrowly defeating Dewey by about 1.3% of the popular vote. After his loss in the gubernatorial election, Dewey's popularity as a nation leader surged when the Gallup Poll showed him as a front-runner for the Republican nomination in the 1940 presidential election. He polled 58% in the general election to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's 40%. He contested the Republican primaries, attacking Roosevelt's New Deal policy. He won several statewide contests, and won the overall popular vote. In the Republican National Convention, he was leading the first three ballots, but lost the nomination to Wendell Willkie. He supported Willkie, and humorously said "I led on the wrong three ballots out of six." After leaving the office of District Attorney in 1941, Dewey immediately emerged again as a potential gubernatorial candidate. The Republican State Convention convened at Saratoga, New York, again nominated Dewey as their candidate for the 1942 state election. Dewey won the election, and became the 47th Governor of New York. As governor, he was widely appreciated for enacting laws prohibiting racial or religious discrimination in employment.

Dewey contested the 1944 Republican primaries for the presidency, and won three states. Entering the convention, Dewey was the most likely candidate to win the nomination. He received 1,056 delegates on the first ballot and was nominated the Republican presidential nominee. He selected John W. Bricker as his running mate. The Republican Dewey–Bricker ticked was defeated by the Democratic Roosevelt–Truman ticket. Just 82 days after Roosevelt's fourth inauguration, Roosevelt died, making his vice president, Harry S. Truman, the president.

Gaining the nomination

Preparing for a run

During Truman's presidency, his approval ratings had dropped significantly from 80% in early 1945 to 30% in early 1947. In the 1946 midterm election, Republicans won control of both the houses of Congress for the first time since the 1920s. The same year, Dewey was decisively re-elected the governor of New York, easily defeating his Democratic opponent James M. Mead. At his victory rally, various people from the crowd shouted "Dewey for President!". Dewey had decided initially not to run; but after his strong showing in 1944 presidential election, and his re-election as the governor, he appeared as a "winner", who could make the Republicans win the presidency after 16 years. In mid-December, when asked by the press whether he is going to announce his candidacy for the 1948 presidential election, he replied "Certainly not". After 14 years of Democratic government, the Republicans were beginning to gain momentum. Richard Nixon, a young Congressman from California said "The greatest advantage I had in 1946 was that the national trend that year was Republican." The Gallup poll proclaimed Dewey as the front-runner for the Republican nomination. With 52%, he was far ahead of any competitor; with his only major opponent being Minnesota Governor Harold Stassen and Senator Robert A. Taft.

A political cartoon by James T. Berryman, depicting Dewey leaving on a train for a tour of western states. Harold Stassen says "He says he wants to see the sights of the west", to which Robert A. Taft replies "And have a few NON-POLITICAL talks with Republican political leaders".
A political cartoon by James T. Berryman, depicting Dewey leaving for a tour of western states.

At a fundraising event on June 12, 1947, Dewey was introduced by J. Russell Sprague as the "next president of the United States". Dewey replied to Sprague by saying "That was a charming and overgenerous introduction, but I would like to assure Mr. Sprague again in public as I have in private, that I am happy where I am." Despite Dewey's refusal to seek the presidency, the next day's New York Times ran the headline "Dewey's Hat Is Tossed into Ring". Soon after, Dewey's friend and former chairman of Republican National Committee Herbert Brownell Jr. set up campaign headquarters in Midtown Manhattan, New York City. Although Dewey was an unannounced candidate, he had made up his mind to contest the presidency. He perceived a threat to his nomination from former Chief of Staff of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower. To increase his chances of winning the nomination, he went on a 6,200 miles (10,000 km) tour of the far-western states in July 1947, coinciding with annual governor's conference in Salt Lake City, Utah. Although he called it a "non-political trip", it allowed him to travel in states with over 300 of the 547 delegates required to secure the presidential nomination. At the governor's conference, he looked for a possible running mate, mostly huddling around Earl Warren, the Republican governor of California.

Although Dewey and Truman agreed on many issues, include civil rights and Marshall plan; Dewey strongly opposed Truman administration's handling of communist offensive in China. On October 24, Robert A. Taft announced his presidential campaign from a press conference. By late 1947, military generals like Eisenhower and Douglas MacArthur were heavily persuade to run for president. Leaders of both the Democratic and Republican party organised draft movement to make a joint appeal to Eisenhower to contest as their nominee. Meanwhile, the Dewey campaign considered Eisenhower as the "Willkie of 1948". Determined to undercut Eisenhower, the Dewey campaign spent $5,000 (equivalent to $68,227 in 2023) campaigning against Eisenhower through magazine articles, air debates, and newspapers. On November 15, 1947, a Republican political operative wrote a memo to Dewey, predicting that Soviets would be attempting to influence the 1948 presidential election. It read "the men in the Kremlin are afraid of the Republicans more than they are of the tested Democrats."

Historian and author Andrew Busch described the political scenario as:

"Americans in 1948 had to render judgment on three major policy innovations. It was the first presidential election since depression, war, and the presence of Franklin D. Roosevelt in which the nation could take stock of the New Deal direction of domestic policy. It was also the first election after the establishment of containment as the foreign policy of the United States and the first since Truman had made civil rights an important part of the federal policy agenda... The presidential nominating system in 1948 was substantially different from the reformed system to which we are accustomed, and the differences were important. Primary elections influenced the nomination but did not control it; it was possible to seriously consider a genuine last-minute draft of a candidate; and the national conventions really mattered."

Republican presidential primaries

In his annual message to the New York legislature, Dewey blamed the Truman Administration for high prices; and shortly after on January 16, 1948, he formally announced his candidacy for president of the United States. Addressing a small group of close advisors in New York's Executive Mansion, Dewey announced his third presidential run. Oswald Heck, the speaker of the New York Assembly told the reporters – "The people have only to look at the record he has made at Albany in the last five years to gain assurance that he is the ideal man to successfully guide the nation through the perilous post-war years." Dewey named his campaign team, consisting of Herbert Brownell, J. Russel Sprague, and Edwin F. Jaeckle. On January 23, Eisenhower declined to run for president, asking the publisher of Union-Leader to quash any suggestions of him contesting the primaries or convention. The Republican National Committee started fundraising, and hired Albert Frank-Guenther Law to publicize the campaign. It commissioned a statistical analysis of the 1946 mid-term election, which showed many traditional Democratic voters voting for Republicans. Strongly anticipating him as the next president, various global leaders including former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Italian Prime Minister Alcide De Gasperi met with Dewey in New York. Excluding Dewey, the major contenders in the Republican primaries were Robert Taft and Harold Stassen. By early 1948, both Taft and Stassen were actively campaigning. Stassen, the 40 year old former governor of Minnesota was even younger than Dewey. He organised a door-to-door campaign, which likely helped him gain popularity.

In 1948, only few delegates were picked by the primaries. Primaries were a way to test a candidate's strength through direct election, but winning the primaries didn't secured the nomination. It was possible for last-moment serious candidate to win the nomination at the convention, without contesting primaries. Dewey's strategy for the primaries focused on performing well in early primaries, and maintaining close appeal with the voters.

Republican National Convention

Campaign

"I will be president. It is written in the stars."
— Thomas E. Dewey

Initial stages

Whistle-stop tour

Media and polls; the final days

Election day

Results

Electoral results
Presidential candidate Party Home state Popular vote Electoral
vote 		Running mate
Count Percentage Vice-presidential candidate Home state Electoral vote
Harry S. Truman (Incumbent) Democratic Missouri 24,179,347 49.55% 303 Alben W. Barkley Kentucky 303
Thomas E. Dewey Republican New York 21,991,292 45.07% 189 Earl Warren California 189
Strom Thurmond States' Rights Democratic South Carolina 1,175,930 2.41% 39 Fielding L. Wright Mississippi 39
Henry A. Wallace Progressive/American Labor New York 1,157,328 2.37% 0 Glen H. Taylor Idaho 0
Norman Thomas Socialist New York 139,569 0.29% 0 Tucker P. Smith Michigan 0
Claude A. Watson Prohibition California 103,708 0.21% 0 Dale Learn Pennsylvania 0
Edward A. Teichert Socialist Labor Pennsylvania 29,244 0.06% 0 Stephen Emery New York 0
Farrell Dobbs Socialist Workers Minnesota 13,613 0.03% 0 Grace Carlson Minnesota 0
Other 3,504 0.01% — Other —
Total 48,793,535 100% 531 531
Needed to win 266 266
Electoral vote
Truman   57.06%
Dewey   35.59%
Thurmond   7.34%
Popular vote
Truman   49.55%
Dewey   45.07%
Thurmond   2.41%
Wallace   2.37%
Others   0.60%

Source (Electoral Vote): "Electoral College Box Scores 1789–1996". National Archives and Records Administration. Retrieved July 5, 2021.

Source (Popular Vote): Leip, David. "1948 Presidential Election Results". Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections. Retrieved July 5, 2021.

  1. In New York, the Truman vote was a fusion of the Democratic and Liberal slates. There, Truman obtained 2,557,642 votes on the Democratic ticket and 222,562 votes on the Liberal ticket.
  2. In Mississippi, the Dewey vote was a fusion of the Republican and Independent Republican slates. There, Dewey obtained 2,595 votes on the Republican ticket and 2,448 votes on the Independent Republican ticket
  3. A Tennessee faithless elector voted for Thurmond/Wright

Aftermath and legacy

See also

Notes and references

Notes

  1. Lehman's vote total was a fusion of Democratic Party's votes and American Labor Party's votes, while Dewey's vote total was a fusion of Republican Party's votes and Independent progressive Party's votes. Out of total 4,821,631 votes, Lehman received 1,971,307 Democratic votes and 419,979 Labor Party vote, while Dewey received 2,302,505 Republican votes and 24,387 Independent progressive Party's vote. Thus, Lehman received more votes than Dewey.
  2. The author of the memo is unknown, as signature on the memo was illegible.

References

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  48. Baime 2020, p. 85. sfn error: no target: CITEREFBaime2020 (help)
  49. Smith 1982, p. 483. sfn error: no target: CITEREFSmith1982 (help)
  50. Baime 2020, p. 120. sfn error: no target: CITEREFBaime2020 (help)
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  52. Karabell 2001, p. 99. sfn error: no target: CITEREFKarabell2001 (help)
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Works cited

Journals and articles

External links

Should the table structure be switched to the alternative table proposed? (Yes or No)

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion–1

2: Lead image

This table had a series box, {{Politics of the United States}}, in the lead. It was recently (correctly) removed as this list is not a part of that series box. Since, there is no broad consensus whether the lead should have an image, and if so, which one. Which of the following option should the list adopt?

  • A: No lead image (status quo)
  • Should have a lead image (examples pictured below):
Examples of the options
B — collage of 3 presidents considered "important" along with the current officeholder.
C — The White House
White House, the official residence of the president
D — Mount Rushmore
Mount Rushmore with the sculpted heads of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln (left to right)
E — Group picture of presidents
An example of a recent group photo of presidents. Others like this and this also might work.

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Kavyansh.Singh: question re: option "B", are people !voting for those particular 4 guys? Or are they just !voting for the collage with the images to be determined via another discussion, if consensus lands on "B"? (or "F" for a 6-pak instead of a 4-pak?) - wolf 00:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
I think they are primary voting for a collage of 4 presidents will all those presidents shown in the example. If anyone had any issue with those four mentioned, they can clarify in their vote, but I don't think anyone would as those 3 "important" and considered important almost universally. As you say in the general discussion, Historical rankings of presidents of the United States might be a good tool, but I think we should considered just the scholar surveys, as polls seem to have a bit WP:Recentism. Of the various scholar surveys provided there, almost all have Washington, Lincoln, and F. Roosevelt in the top three. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 03:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be made clear that a !vote for "B" is specifically for those 4 four guys. The first 3 are strong candidates, but I don't see why Biden would automatically be included. People should specify which 4 (or 6) they want if they select the collage option. (imo) - wolf 07:36, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion–2

  • To clarify (following minor altercation of question). I'm not necessarily supporting (or opposing) that selection, just support a collage of several presidents. (I would argue that the collage should be first, incumbent and two most famous, and would potentially argue that lincoln and FDR aren't the most famous, but that is something I think is best discussed later, if I can be bothered at all) SSSB (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

General discussion.

While I haven't actually contributed to this discussion, I have been following it closely due fellow user Thewolfchild's active participation. May I confirm, aside from list style and portraits for individual presidents, that there is no real disagreement on the page regarding the actual information? As there are no disputed presidents, the 46 (excluding Cleveland's 2nd term) in the list seems pretty cut and dry. SuperWIKI (talk) 16:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

For goodness sakes, we've got enough images in this article. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

  • This list article, which is full of images, has gone for quite some time without a lead image, so I can see the argument of those against an image. That said, I tend to favor having an image in the lead of articles, but it depends on which image(s). As there are already images of every President, there is a strong case for the The White House, which is a symbol of the Presidency, without highlighting any particular President, (or party). After that, a very good case could be made for Mount Rushmore, again another symbol, with 4 Presidents that are very highly regarded. If we were to do a collage of 4 (or even 6), we could rightfully go with Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and T.Roosevelt. In the case of a 6-pak, the best additonal choices would be F.Roosevelt and say... Obama. He is fairly highly ranked and is certainly more notable for being the first Black President, than say, Cleveland for having the quirk of being #22 and #24 (so he was elected twice... big deal, so has almost half the others), and certainly more worthy of inclusion than Biden, just because he's the incumbent (and could still fail spectacularly). I think that if we were to go with a collage, the Historical rankings of presidents of the United States is a good tool to use for decision making, (except for Truman, I don't like Truman). Good cases could also be made for Eisenhower, Kennedy and Reagan. (JMHO) - wolf 00:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
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