Talk:Republic of Ireland - Misplaced Pages

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Q: Why isn't this article titled Ireland?

A: Many discussions have been had on this matter, and current consensus is to use Ireland to describe the island (which includes Northern Ireland) and the Republic of Ireland to describe the state. By order of the Arbitration Committee, all discussions from June 2009 to December 2023 of this article's title had to take place at a special project set up to deal with this issue. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles for the manual of style for Ireland-related issues. From December 2023 discussions could take place on the article talk page as normal.

This page is written in Hiberno-English, which uses the same spelling as British English: colour, realise, travelled. Some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Please fact check official documents for correct name of the country in English (Ireland) rather than pushing a political agenda

The name of a sovereign state is not a matter of opinion and debate. Misplaced Pages should use the correct and official name, as per all official Irish and international bodies. Ireland is the official name of the state, as per Irish government, UN list of countries, etc. Even, the UK government list of official country names specifically excludes Republic of Ireland as acceptable use (unlike for France). It is extremely politically contentious and offensive to use Republic of Ireland, this was the name used by the UK government until the Good Friday Agreement, because the UK (alone) refused to recognise the name of the sovereign state (albeit former colony) until that point. How difficult is it for editors to read the easily available official government lists for Ireland, UN (and even the UK! official country naming pages and recent government COVID pages !) to fact check the correct and official name of a country? 88.98.92.27 (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does use the name of the state, it just uses Republic of Ireland as a natural disambiguator as there is already a primary topic with the name Ireland which is the island. It is also used when there may be confusion as to whether we're talking Ireland the state or Ireland the island. Additionally it's not politically contentious or offensive, in fact it's in the Irish Republic of Ireland Act as the official description of the state. Additionally the phrase Republic of Ireland is used by the government, and as mentioned is in law, and is in use in Ireland, just look at the national football team for that one. I would suggest that you read the documents and government items before coming to a conclusion on this, there is no political agenda here and it comes across as more that you're the one that isn't aware of what's in the official documents. Also please read the talk page archives, all is explained in there. Canterbury Tail talk 14:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

As per Article 4 of the Irish Constitution, in the English language the name of the state is Ireland.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2

Surely the natural way for Misplaced Pages to disambiguate between Ireland the country and Ireland the island would be by using round brackets e.g. Ireland (country) 2A02:8084:4E41:D80:ED80:C306:BC42:9718 (talk) 14:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Any discussions on the name of the article should take place at WP:IECOLL as per the large red box at the top of the page, and in the edit window. This is not something that can be handled here. Canterbury Tail talk 14:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

On wikipedia, natural disambiguation is using an alternate name that is found in reliable sources. See WP:QUALIFIER. DrKay (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Official sources specifying the current correct usage of the country name for Ireland (to update the Misplaced Pages country page currently displaying incorrect title)

European Union correct usage details by country, with specific footnote on the usage of Ireland:

https://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-370100.htm

United Nations references for official names of member states:

https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/content/ireland https://en.unesco.org/countries/i

Link to pdf listing official names of UN member states in multiple languages: https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/26th-gegn-docs/wp/wp54_ungegn%20wg%20country%20names%20document%202011.pdf

UK Government official usage for country names:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/country-names/country-names-the-permanent-committee-on-geographical-names-for-british-official-use

UK Government travel page on the country Ireland:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland

Irish Department of Foreign Affairs:

https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/ (Irish Department of Foreign Affairs website) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:1046:9A02:F2DF:B987:A220:2D20 (talk) 15:23, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh we know the name of the country, that's not in any doubt. Please read the talk pages archives and over here as well. And please read the red box at the top of the page for the correct location for any discussions on the name of the article. Canterbury Tail talk 15:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Querying 'Southern Ireland'

At Section '1 Name', at the last line, the article reads: 'As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South". The reference for this is 'Acciano, Reuben (2005). Western Europe. Lonely Planet. p. 616. ISBN 1740599276. Retrieved 12 February 2015.' 'Ireland', 'Éire', the 'Republic of Ireland' and 'the Republic' are all ways in which the Republic of Ireland either refers to itself officially or unofficially. 'Southern Ireland' or 'The South' are not names for the country, but merely a way of looking at the country from the perspective of Northern Ireland and can only be understood through that lens. To be described as 'Southern Ireland' also infers that the country is half 'Republic of Ireland' and half 'Northern Ireland', which it clearly is not. Ireland has never been referred to as 'Southern Ireland' by Irish people, whether that is officially or unofficially. Instead, it is a term most commonly used by some people from Northern Ireland and some British people, purely through their understanding of Northern Ireland or their lack of understanding of how the island of Ireland is composed. You would not include statements on a country's official Misplaced Pages page, by how other countries refer to it. In fact, many people who are from or live in the Republic of Ireland consider the term 'The South' as dismissive and pejorative.137.191.234.130 (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the Irish government does occasionally use the term Southern Ireland in internal reports, but always when also talking about Northern Ireland. When they're talking about things that impact both sides of the border they do sometimes use "Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland". "Northern Ireland" to refer to Northern Ireland, (this is different to their careful use of "northern Ireland" as something else), and "Southern Ireland" to refer to the state of Ireland.

For instance "Rigorous pre-planning screening exercises established this proposal as EIA Development within both Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland;" when discussing a ferry across Carlingford Lough.

"The MAs in both Northern and Southern Ireland will provide particular support for those projects that relate to North-South co-operation with a view to improving the outcomes for those projects going forward."

They are careful however to only use it in this specific instance where Northern Ireland is also being mentioned. They appear to have the same issues we have on Misplaced Pages of ensuring a lack of confusion between Ireland and Ireland. Why they don't just use "Republic of Ireland" since that's their own official description enshrined in law and a good natural disambiguator rather instead of the potentially problematic originally imposed by Britain "Southern Ireland" I do not know. I would agree that a better reference could be found. Canterbury Tail talk 16:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

If quoting these occasional internal reports that are in reference to cross border projects, then that should be highlighted in the Misplaced Pages article, i.e.-'instances when...'. The instances are surely too infrequent to list 'Southern Ireland' as on a par with the other names mentioned. If the term is never used without the context of Northern Ireland, then how it can be regarded as a stand alone term for the Republic of Ireland? There is another Misplaced Pages page, 'Names of the Irish State' which says: 'The term Southern Ireland does not have any official status today. However, it is sometimes used colloquially particularly in the United Kingdom.' For this, they reference 'John Furlong (2006). Ireland – the Name of the State. Legal Information Management, 6, pp 297–301. Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/S1472669606000934'. A more reliable source surely on the use of 'Southern 'Ireland' as a name for the state then a Lonely Planet guidebook as is quoted here?137.191.234.130 (talk) 15:08, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Furlong doesn't actually say that. He says it was the term that was to come into use as a result of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 but it never actually came about because the 1920 act was repealed by the Irish Free State (Constitution) Act 1922. DrKay (talk) 15:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The other problem is my research above that shows that Southern Ireland is occasionally used when also referring to Northern Ireland is original research. The stuff I turned up can be used to say it's used, but not how commonly it's used or that it's always with Northern Ireland. I do agree whatever way it blows that Southern Ireland is most definitely not on par with Ireland or Republic of Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 16:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

What about listing "Southern Ireland", "the South" alongside "the Free State" and "the 26 Counties" alongside the context of their use relative to Northern Ireland? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

That's not an equivalence. Canterbury Tail talk 21:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not, they are all colloquial terms used mainly in the UK and Northern Ireland? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland isn't simply a colloquial term, but the official description of the country and a term used by the country in question. Canterbury Tail talk 23:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if it wasn't clear, I'm only suggesting that "Southern Ireland", "the South", "the Free State" and "the 26 Counties" be listed together as colloquial terms. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Edits needed to the introduction - particularly the third paragraph

The focus in the third introductory paragraph on tax inversion, modified GNI etc seems a little excessive. This does not seem to be in line with the introductions of other country pages. A previous edit had for example included reference to Ireland's Human Development Index ranking (currently 2nd in the world.) In the fourth paragraph, it is mentioned that Ireland "performs well" when it comes to economic freedom and freedom of the press. In both rankings, Ireland is 6th in the world - surely "performs well" is not a fair description? Seamasjim (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

On the first, I'd agree. The broad point does need to be present, as few economies are so much distorted by these flows, but 1.5 out of 3 sentences in one lede paragraph may be OTT. I'd also suggest we change the order of the elements in this paragraph, and tweak the wording.

Now: One of Europe's major financial hubs is centred on Dublin. Ireland ranks among the top ten wealthiest countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita, although this has been partially ascribed to distortions caused by the tax inversion practices of various multinationals operating in Ireland. From 2017, a modified gross national income (GNI*) was enacted by the Central Bank of Ireland, as the standard deviation was considered too materially distorted to accurately measure or represent the Irish economy. After joining the EC, the country's government enacted a series of liberal economic policies that resulted in economic growth between 1995 and 2007 now known as the Celtic Tiger period, before its subsequent reversal during the Great Recession.

Possible approach #1: Ireland ranks among the ten wealthiest countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita, although this has been partially ascribed to distortions caused by the revenue attribution and tax inversion practices of various multinationals operating in Ireland (in response, from 2017, a modified gross national income (GNI*) measure was enacted by the Ireland's Central Bank). After joining the EC, the country's government enacted a series of liberal economic policies that resulted in economic growth between 1995 and 2007 now known as the Celtic Tiger period, before its subsequent reversal during the Great Recession. Ireland has also for some years held one of the highest Human Development Index ratings in the world.

On the second, yes, a wording like "Ireland is ranked among the top ten countries in the world for economic freedom and freedom of the press." Mind you, the press freedom point is a stretch, given the chilling effect of defamation laws, but as long as the indexes and citations support, it should be presented properly. SeoR (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Ireland - NOT Republic of Ireland

According to the office of the President of Ireland the country is no longer called "Republic of Ireland". To the notice of some newspapers, invitations addressed to the President of the Republic of Ireland are utterly ignored. --2A02:908:890:EFC0:B62E:99FF:FE5B:4C9D (talk) 03:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Noted. Nonetheless, Irish law defines RoI as a valid description of the state. We’re all clear the name is Ireland (but it is also the name of the island…). Per the red box at the top, and notice that pops up when editing, debate about this has a home on a special page. SeoR (talk) 07:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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