Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stone of Tears

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Stone of Tears

This page violates WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE section seven - the page contains nothing more than a plot summary, which is specifically prohibited. It fails to make any establishment of historical significance, any impact, real-world context or analysis. Furthermore, I fail to see any potential for development here that could not go into the Sword of Truth series page, or Terry Goodkind's personal page. I therefore nominate this page for deletion.

For the same reason, I am also nominating the following books from the same series:

MPoint 05:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Weak Keep Despite lacking sources it is clear the plot over views are to big to fit on the series page because of the number of books. Nomination should be nominating all of the books not just this one.--155.144.251.120 05:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Good point, I'll add the rest to the nomination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MPoint (talk • contribs) 05:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
Keep. Can definitely be improved on. Several of these books have been on best-seller lists, and I fail to see how historical significance or real-world context is a criteria for notability. bibliomaniac 1 5 05:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I am not nominating the series on a lack of notability; I am nominating them for violating WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE section seven. To put it in plain english, the pages are plot summaries, which are prohibited.MPoint
Keep Book is clearly notable as part of a best-selling series. If the content bothers you, tag it for clean-up or merge. Mister.Manticore 05:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- As above, the problem isn't notability; it is that the pages are of an inherently unencyclopedic nature. Anything of value can safely be put on the series page - the only content the individual book pages add is a series of plot summaries, which are forbidden by WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE section seven. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MPoint (talk • contribs) 05:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
  - And that is not a deletion problem, that's a clean-up problem. The problem here is the content needs improvement, not the subject. Tag it for clean-up, take it to the talk pages. Deletion? That's just the wrong response. It's neither necessary or desirable. You've posted this response several times, but you haven't yet said much about cleaning up the pages. Why not add the appropriate clean-up tags instead of deleting? Mister.Manticore 06:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  - BTW, you've added the other pages, but even if I accepted your argument as grounds for deletion, it seems to me that you didn't look at the pages themselves before adding them. Wizard's First Rule though not what I would consider a high-quality article is slightly more than a plot summary. Again, I would suggest cleanup not deletion. Mister.Manticore 06:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    - But, as stated and bolded below, it must be part of a larger topic. As it stands, the overwhelming portion of the article is summary; the focus must be on the surrounding material, either by shrinking the summary to uselessness or increasing the size of the other segments. What, though, are we to include in the article? Sales figures, awards, the wizards rules list and such? All of those will easily fit on the serie's main page and the author's page, leaving nothing but the summaries for the book pages, which would be a violation of policy. Thus, the need for individual book pages is eliminated. Thus, my recommendation that they be deleted and redirected to the Sword of Truth series page, with all non-summary information moved to the other page, and perhaps a SHORT summary of what the series is about. Having just checked, however, I now note that there IS no main page for the Sword of Truth series, neccessitating its creation. I, being currently busy, will make such a page for it tomorrow.MPoint
      - Actually, you're wrong, there is The Sword of Truth which does cover the series as a whole. The fact is, your problem is not a deletion issue, it's a clean-up problem. If you don't feel the individual books in the series would need a page of their own, try the {{merge}} tag. Go to the Sword of Truth Wikiproject. Convince people of what you feel is appropriate. Deletion, however, is not the proper route to go here. Not as a first step. As it stands, I just see this as the wrong approach. Mister.Manticore 07:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        Ah, I had missed it, as it is not linked from the Sword of Truth project page, or the individual book pages. I would support a merger if there was something to be merged, but as it stands, there isn't. All that is in the book pages that is not in the main page is a plot summary and list of characters, which is the problem - there is nothing usable or encyclopedic in the pages. We don't have any sense of why they're important, or what impact they're having on the world at large - no information as to how well it sold, or who recognizes it as important, no examination into its hidden meanings or who looks to it for inspiration. A lot of work went into these articles, and it's a shame to see it wasted, but the fact stands that it's not proper Misplaced Pages material, and would be better placed on a fansite. The main article, now that I have read it, says everything that needs to be said. MPoint
        Actually, the plot summaries and lists of characters are quite encyclopedic and are valid content for a merger. You seem to have this idea that plot summaries absolutely cannot be on Misplaced Pages. That is not true(and if it were, it'd mean thousands of pages would have to be pruned). the problem is when plot summaries are the only thing in an article. Well, given that these are books, the plots and characters will have to be covered, so the question is detail and context. Can more be added to add real world perspective? Maybe, maybe not, though given that these are best-sellers, I would not take your word on faith about that. But again, as I see it, in this case, your problems are more properly clean-up issues, not deletion ones. There are many templates that can be used to mark an article for clean-up or improvement so that interested parties can act. You should have tried that method, not AfD. Mister.Manticore 08:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        Show me how the plot summaries from each book can be merged into the main series article without losing important detail or bloating it beyond reason, and I will agree merge is the right option. At the moment, I believe that the best option would be to write a completely new (and short) summary for the entire series, as it would be significantly easier to write something like that from scratch. Character lists? Perhaps. The best option for that might be a new list, indicating which characters were in which books, on a single page, as opposed to broken up the way it is now. As stated below, putting up a cleanup tag and talk page notice would have been better form, I agree (which, to avoid putting up a dozen articles on AfD in one night, I have done with other books suffering this problem) - but here we are now, and if nothing else, we'll probably see distinct improvement over the next five days if such is possible. I hope that I'm proven wrong, and the article improves, as I dislike removing any article from Misplaced Pages; but, if it does not improve, then its removal will be in the best interests of the series.MPoint
Keep per WP:BK. It does need some context added to make it more than a plot summary, but easily passes notability guidelines. Resolute 05:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- For the fourth time, notability is not an issue here; it is easily a notable series. However, these pages violate WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. Specifically, it violates section seven - "Plot summaries. Misplaced Pages articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." If the articles were to focus primarily on something that wasn't a summary, there would be no problem. However, as it stands, policy dicates that it is not Misplaced Pages material, and should be deleted. If we reduce the size of the summaries to within wikipedia policy, then the pages become unjustifiably small, and should be merged into the series page or the author's page as appropriate. Hence, the deletion.MPoint
  - Actually, policy dictates improvement. As a general rule, if the topic of an article is notable, the article shouldn't be deleted if the content is not hopelessly unsalvageable (which is the case here). I agree that the articles should be expanded, but that's a matter for {{expand}} or other {{cleanup}} templates. If you think the articles should be merged into a series page, then you may go ahead and do so, but deletion is still not warranted. How are you going to merge them after they're deleted? -- Black Falcon 08:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    - I do believe it to be unsalvagable, however, as there lacks sufficient information to include per book that will be substantially different from the main series page. It will therefore be either redundant or in permanent violation of section seven, meaning that it fails the policy guidelines, and can thus be deleted under the same grounds as any other WP:NOT violation. MPoint
      - I happen to disagree, but that is just my opinion. If you do think they are unsalvageable, then your nomination certainly becomes valid. However (assuming they are unsalvageable), would you support a merge into a "Sword of Truth" series (proposed on the articles or to the articles' primary authors)? I can understand and perhaps even be convinced by arguments that separate articles shouldn't exist, but I don't think the content should just be deleted, when it can be cut down and moved to a more appropriate place. Cheers, Black Falcon 08:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        I really wish that merging was an option for more of the articles, but I don't think that it is. Taking a look at the articles again, the Success section of Wizard's First Rule could and should probably be merged into the Sword of Truth main article, but the other articles don't even list the release dates of the books, and the two articles that give a brief discussion of the philosophy in their respective books do so without citing any sources, leaving them unusable. It is my sincere hope that the articles make a dramatic improvement over the next five days, demonstrating my nomination to have been a horrible mistake, but the articles as they stand now are almost useless, and the series as a whole would be better served by removing the individual book articles. A new summary of the Sword of Truth series would be needed for the main article, however, as a reasonably short summary for the series cannot be made from the summaries for the books. I can be convinced that the articles aren't unsalvagable, mind you - it's entirely possible that there is some dimension of expansion that I hadn't previously considered, and I may have been too judgemental because of the excessive size of the current summaries. MPoint
Keep per all the comments above. The book is notable, and there is too much information for it to be merged. -- Chairman S. Talk 06:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Then Delete the summaries. Misplaced Pages is not the place for plot summaries.MPoint
  - You are mistaken. Summaries of plots is highly appropriate for articles on books, television shows, and other fictional content. Not including them would be very strange. Or do you think Romeo and Juilet should have its section on the play's plot removed? I don't. I think you should adjust your approach to these articles. The problem is not that they contain plot summaries, it's the size of the summary and the lack of other content that is a problem. Again, that's clean-up, not deletion. Mister.Manticore 06:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    - The problem is not the size of the summary and lack of other content; those are symptoms. The problem is the lack of potential for each of these for every book. One page for all of the books would be very reasonable, and I would have no problem with it. As it stands, however, they lack the potential to reasonably fill the space that individual book pages offer them. A summary as a tool to help one understand the series and how it has impacted the world is encyclopedic and necessary. To have the summary be the focus is unencyclopedic, and detracts from the usefulness of the section as a whole.MPoint
      - I don't see any need for the books to "fill the space that individual book pages offer them" as not every article needs to be full of in-depth content. But given that they are best-sellers, I'd say it's at least as possible with them as it is with any other book with its own article. If these articles don't contain that content, that's the article's problem, not the subject's. In any case, your problem is best expressed as a clean-up issue not a deletion one. If you don't feel there is a need for individual articles, try proposing a merger. Mister.Manticore 07:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my nomination, as it is bad form to not give a warning first, but I consdier it a valid one. As for it being possible for them to fill their content, I don't believe it is, at least not without a good deal of overlap with the other book pages - from a strictly organizational perspective, I believe it would be better to keep all of the information on the series on one page. The main Sword of Truth page seems to be exactly what I had in mind, and what I believe to be near the limit of what could be reasonably written on the subject.MPoint
      - BTW, what do you think of The Fellowship of the Ring or even Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone? Not much different from these pages. Mister.Manticore 07:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
        Ah, thank you. I'll tag them for cleanup now, and nominate for deletion if no talk or action is generated from the tag/talk page. The Harry Potter page is borderline, however; the introduction, missing text section, and displays of different covers comes very close to pushing it out of "mainly a plot summary". Perhaps the Fellowship of the Ring page is different from my cursory scan of it (I'll check before I tag it), but it appears to be mainly a summary at the moment. MPoint
Keep When articles for clearly notable subjects aren't very good, the solution may be to fix them instead of deleting them. Maxamegalon2000 06:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep per WP:BK. If the topic is notable (which even the nom has admitted is the case), the article should not be deleted unless hopelessly unsalvageable. That is hardly the case with these articles. They can and should be improved. -- Black Falcon 07:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep Though I see MPoint's point, my gut fails to agree and application of his criteria would require the deletion of virtually every novel on wikipedia that's not a literary masterpiece with multiple reviews and academic analysis. Articles should be expanded with whatever information can be added (sales, best-seller status at minimum, these particular articles could probably be expanded with Goodkind's opinions on what the themes of the novels are (but only the themes, not their impact on literature, the world or people). I agree with Black Falcon, Mister.Manticore and the other keep votes. Fix, add content, don't delete. Given Goodkind's agenda of adding significant philosophical content to the fantasy world and books in general, linking plot points with his overall writing goals should be possible, though sourcing may be problematic.

Also note discussion at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Novels/GeneralForum#.22PROD.22. I think in this case, the point

"should" is the magic word in the passage quoted from "What Misplaced Pages is not". "should" refers to something desirable rather than to a prerequisite. "should" is not synonymous 
with "must". I agree that an article on a novel should contain more than a plot summary. If it doesn't, it should be expanded rather than shortened, let alone deleted

applies in the case of all the novels. As a final note, I think brief plot summaries are appropriate to pages about books (I've also found them useful in the past), so it might be a question of what else, or how much needs to be added to dodge the WP:NOT criteria. I've brought this up at Village Pump and I'm waiting for a reply. WLU 12:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep. WP:NOT includes "plot summaries" for the such when given their own article. WP:BK and notability guidlines both provide for these listed articles. The notability of this article can be verified through reliable sources. Or attibuted. I suspect that this nomination is either in bad faith or in violation of WP:POINT. NeoFreak 13:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep, excessive plot summary is a reason to trim and summarize detail, rather than delete the whole article. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 13:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong keep per above. AFD is a last resort, not a casual weapon. — Deckill er 13:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

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