Misplaced Pages

Talk:Blue Police

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dr. Dan (talk | contribs) at 23:11, 22 February 2007 (→How Many is Many?: no answers, but more nastiness.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 23:11, 22 February 2007 by Dr. Dan (talk | contribs) (→How Many is Many?: no answers, but more nastiness.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
WikiProject iconMilitary history: World War II Start‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.
B checklist
This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: not checked
  2. Coverage and accuracy: not checked
  3. Structure: not checked
  4. Grammar and style: not checked
  5. Supporting materials: not checked
To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call:
  • | b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no>
  • | b2<!--Coverage and accuracy   --> = <yes/no>
  • | b3<!--Structure               --> = <yes/no>
  • | b4<!--Grammar and style       --> = <yes/no>
  • | b5<!--Supporting materials    --> = <yes/no>
assessing the article against each criterion.
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
World War II task force
WikiProject iconPoland Start‑class Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

While navy-blue might be the most correct translation of the Polish word "granatowa", most of the historical works in English just call this formation "Blue Police". Google Book Search shows that "Blue Police" is a much more prevalent form. Hence, I am moving the article. Balcer 22:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Relevance?

Since the article is about the collaborationist Polish Police force in the General Government, I removed a completly irrelevant paragraph to the subject matter. Dr. Dan 17:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Please try to provide the references together with their corresponding page numbers. --Lysy 16:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


Ukrainian Inclusion

I was under the impression that the Blue Police represented Polish-Nazi collaboration with their German overlords, and that the Blue Police "primarily" consisted of Poles. Although I'm sure their were other nationalities employed in the force, it almost seems that the inclusion of Ukrainians is somehow trying to dilute its Polishness. Perhaps I'm wrong. Would anyone care to present the percentages of the various nationalities compromising the Blue Police. Rather than completely deleting the reference to Ukrainians, I chose to soften the impression of its significance. As a result of this being disputed, I will ask that unless a reference showing a "significant" percentage of the Blue Police was Ukrainian, that the entire accusation be removed as POV and irrelevant. Dr. Dan 18:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Blue Police was predominantly Polish or Ukrainian, depending on the region. Ukrainian units were created in 1940 in Kraków and Lublin district and later in Lviv. Other nationalities were less significant then Poles and Ukrainians, and had not their separate units. Would you be able to rephrase the sentence in the article in a way that addresses your concerns about "diluting the Polishness" but also maintains the information that the police consisted primarily of Poles and Ukrainians ? --Lysy 11:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you tell us what the percentage of the 10,000 to 15,000, Blue Policemen, were Polish and what percentage were Ukrainian? Does anyone else know the facts concerning these percentages? Dr. Dan 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know the percentage. What I meant was that this depended on the time and the area, so a "flat" number would be meaningless anyway. What is important is that the majority of the personnel were Polish or Ukrainian and the number of other nationalities were not significant. This is not because Poles or Ukrainians were particularly "bad" but this is because of the way how these units were recruited. --Lysy 17:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not judging "bad" or "good". I'm asking for a percentage to gauge if the inclusion of Ukrainians as a "primary part"of its membership along with the Poles, is appropriate. As for it depending on the time and the area, lets make the area, the General Government, and the time 1939-1944, if it helps. For example, if the Blue Police was 95% Polish, and 4% Ukrainian and 1% everything else, Ukrainian would be inappropriate in the "primarily" context. Perhaps someone else can better elaborate on the numbers. Dr. Dan 05:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Dan, limiting the scope to "General Government 1939-1944" does not make sense, as BP did not exist outside GG. As I explained above, its composition varied with time and depended on the region. This in fact is also explained in the article, as the Ukrainian units operated in SE parts of the GG. --Lysy 06:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

History of Poland by Czesław Brzoza, Andrzej Leon Sowa "Historia Polski 1918 - 1945" informs there existed

  • the Polish police (10 000, later 12.500+) and
  • the Ukrainian one (hundreds till 1941, 4.500 later).

Did the Germans consider them as one organization? Did there exist mixed units? Xx236 14:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Those statistics add up to about 17,000 Blue Policeman. Is that about the right fifure now? Dr. Dan 15:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The book doesn't sum up both numbers. In which way there existed ONE police with Polish and Ukrainian policemen, who -when possible- killed each other?Xx236 16:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

paramilitary?

The Blue Police was a local police plus a number of paramilitary units rather than a paramilitary unit. The police wasn't any unit, but a number of local polices, under local German commanders. Xx236 14:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Similar police organizations existed the all of the occupied countries

But the editors prefer to ignore them. The only information I have found is critics of the French police in Vichy France. Xx236 14:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Smuggling, Black Marketeering, and Polish Patriotism

Not to waste too much time on this, what is the relevance, and more importantly, the necessity, to make this specific distinction of "smuggling" from other criminal activities? And was the Blue Police not used to combat the Black Market? It seems awkward and unusual. Perhaps a complete removal of this point helps put back the focus of the sentence, which would be to state that this nazi-collaborationist entity aided and helped the nazis perpetrate the Holocaust in Poland. Dr. Dan 17:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC) Some US citizens seems to be proud, that people of other nations collaborated. The problem is that the USA did what it did, even without German occupation - expelling St. Louis ship or not issuning visas (eg. for the family of Anna Frank). Yes, there are Overpeople and Underpeople, and everyone knows that Americans under German occupations would have never collaborated. They would have even elect a non-Nazi government, the idea the Underpeople would never had. Oh those Slavic criminals... Xx236 15:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Some references would be nice. Consider that smuggling can also mean smuggling people (and during IIWW that could include for example Jewish refugees...).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Dan apparently forgot that the article mentions both aspects of the Blue Police. Both the fact that the entity aided the nazis perpetrate the Holocaust and that it helped the government fight against the nazis and the Holocaust. Anybody have any problem with that? //Halibutt 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Are either of you saying that the Blue Police were "smuggling" Jewish refugees. If so, a reference for that would be more in order than needing one to explain that smuggling is a criminal activity, rather than a "patriotic" one. Even Rhett Butler did it for the money. And I'm sure that Polish-Nazi Collaborationist Groups, had to have done some good things too. I don't have a problem with that. Does anyone else? Dr. Dan 19:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

What I meant is that the Nazis attempted to degrade the Polish population of General Government amongst others by economic means. This included food limitation and rationing, and smuggling food from the Reich to GG was one of the countermeasures of the Poles. To call it a criminal activity is similar to calling the Home Army Polnische Banditen. --Lysy 21:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Lot's of confusing info in your comment. Polnische Banditen, where have I heard that before? Everyone knows that there used to be a great emnity between the Germans and the Poles, otherwise we wouldn't have the gem, Heute gestolen. Morgen in Polen, in the vernacular. Just as the eminity between the French and the Germans has died down, so has it slightly died down between Poles and Germans. I hope the Misplaced Pages format doesn't start fanning these flames again. I know from personal experience it hasn't improved Polish-Lithuanian relations terribly much lately.
So then, was "smuggling" as written in the article limited to smuggling food from the Reich to GG, or any kind of smuggling? And my real question or confusion regarding the matter is why the specific distinction between "smuggling", "other criminal activities", and specifically the Blue Police's role in combating this "crime"? And one more thing, ...attempted to degrade the Polish population of GG amongst others by economic means (sic). This included food limitation and rationing... Were the nazis trying to degrade their own population with food limitation and rationing too? They were also implemented in Germany, I'm sure you know. Dr. Dan 17:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Dan, this is a longer topic. German occupation of Poland was not as nice as the occupation of e.g. France. There's been a lot of policies explicitly targeted to exterminate the nation by various means. The food and other restrictions for Poles in GG and for Germans in the Reich are incomparable things, I even cannot believe you would not know this. --Lysy 17:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Of course I know they are not comparable. Just the same, why can't we focus on the term smuggling as it is rendered in the article? Why can't we address what the need to distinguish it from other criminal activities is? I can't believe that you believe, smuggling to be a "patriotic" activity, that was perpetrated to spite the Germans and to bolster the national pride of Poland. My issue is very simple, the activities of this collaborationist entity against the Jews needs to be clearly given a single spotlight, without a watering down of this tragedy with some blather about smuggling. Perhaps you can come up with a solution. Dr. Dan 05:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I only object to assuming the Nazi POV in the article and calling smuggling in the GG a "criminal activity". I bet you would not similarly call hiding Jewish people a criminal activity. As for highlighting the BP actions against the Jews, I don't know - how frequent they were ? what was the character of these actions ? I'm not trying to whitewash the BP, I know they were hated by Poles. But also I'd be reluctant to generalize too easily, we better find some references first. --Lysy 07:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
If we can agree not to call smuggling in the reality of Nazi occupation in GG a "criminal activity", we can go on to see if and how to highlight the anti-Jewish activities. --Lysy 07:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I would rather divide the policemen into two groups (and a whole rainbow among them) - those who cooperated with the underground and did only that, what they were oredered to, and those who lost any moral limits, like the real Franciszek Kłos (maybe the name is fictional). Only children believe they could have acted like James Bond or persons in Halo, halo. The pre-war policemen had little choice, those who joined the police later without any underground initiative, were guilty, like any policemen under Germans, never punished and sometimes distuingished after the war like the ones in the Channel Islands. Xx236 16:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Which police wasn't collaborationist?

Which of many police formations under Germans wasn't collaborationist? Why only the Polish one is branded this way and obtained a separate article?

What is the meaning of the paramilitary word here? Which other police article describes local police as a paramilitary unit? It wasn't any unit, because any local police was commanded by a local German commander.

People, do your job correctly or do something different. Noone is obliged to write POV texts. Xx236 16:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Xx236, the (See: also) link at the bottom of this article gives a couple of examples you can read up on. The Vichy France article gives some more examples. There are others too. Dr. Dan 01:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Which others? I have found the Vichy France myself. The Jewish police acted in extremal situation and the Lithuanian Security Police was a small qualified group, not a common police.Xx236 08:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

How Many is Many?

One of the most prolific contributors to Misplaced Pages (as I have been told frequently), recently added that "many" officers in the Blue Police were given the Righteous Among the Nations award. I have changed this to "some". Hopefully I won't be reverted for missinformation. How many in the "many" that you mentioned, were so honored out of this 15,000 plus collaborationist entity? Dr. Dan 02:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I know only Bronisław Marchlewicz.Xx236 08:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, you are a hate monger. Would you please look for an another victim than Poland and Poles? Is there any edior around to limit him?

In which way are Poles responsible for Ukrainians you 15 000 plus mathematician? You repeat your stories many times, do you believe you make them true this way? Xx236 08:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Lysy, for bringing us the link to Blue Police Officer, Nowinski. Do you have a figure as to how many is many?
Xx236, thank you for your kind words (what, no administrator to admonish or warn you about WP:Civil?) Regarding, Is there any edior around to limit him? (sic), do you mean censor me, silence me, or something else? Dr. Dan 13:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Find an another victim to play your games, not me, not Poland. I wonder why some Poles accept your behaviour. Xx236 13:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It would give me great pleasure to not play games with you, and to ignore you completely. Just don't mention my name or concern yourself with me. You're incapable of answering simple questions, and are discourteous as well. It won't be hard for me to not be involved with you any longer. And don't equate yourself with Poland either. It's a great country, with great people. Dr. Dan 23:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainians

What source confirms the prezence of Ukrainian policemen in the Polnische Polizei? There existed Ukrainische Hilfpolizei. Xx236 13:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Categories: