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Lamont's citation at MobileSyrup

Does the following statement represent the WP:BIASED citation fairly and without editorial bias? (Special:Diff/1096776490)

In his initial impressions post a week prior, Lamont said after an easy install there were issues with permissions for Google's Messages app, and difficulty importing contacts; Lamont then concluded, "Anyone looking for a straightforward experience may want to avoid GrapheneOS or other privacy-oriented Android experiences since the privacy gains often come at the expense of convenience and ease of use."

A proposed revision of this statement was (diff):

In his initial impressions post a week prior, Lamont said after an easy install there were issues with permissions for Google's Messages app, and difficulty importing contacts; Lamont then concluded, "Anyone looking for a straightforward experience may want to avoid GrapheneOS or other privacy-oriented Android experiences since the privacy gains often come at the expense of convenience and ease of use", but "GrapheneOS has so far been one of the easiest privacy experiences I've tried".

According to Special:Diff/1096788266 which undid said revision: Ease of installation has been over-emphasized enough already. Deleting added over-emphasis. The current full statement in the article is:

In 2022, Jonathan Lamont of MobileSyrup, in a review of GrapheneOS installed on a Pixel 3, after a week of use opined GrapheneOS demonstrated Android's reliance on Google. He called GrapheneOS install process "straightforward" and concluded to like GrapheneOS overall, but criticized the post-install as "often not a seamless experience like using an unmodified Pixel or an iPhone", attributing his experience to his "over-reliance on Google apps" and the absence of some "smart" features in GrapheneOS default keyboard and camera apps, in comparison to software from Google. In his initial impressions post a week prior, Lamont said after an easy install there were issues with permissions for Google's Messages app, and difficulty importing contacts; Lamont then concluded, "Anyone looking for a straightforward experience may want to avoid GrapheneOS or other privacy-oriented Android experiences since the privacy gains often come at the expense of convenience and ease of use."

The proposed full statement was:

In 2022, Jonathan Lamont of MobileSyrup, in a review of GrapheneOS installed on a Pixel 3, after a week of use opined GrapheneOS demonstrated Android's reliance on Google. He called GrapheneOS install process "straightforward" and concluded to like GrapheneOS overall, but criticized the post-install as "often not a seamless experience like using an unmodified Pixel or an iPhone", attributing his experience to his "over-reliance on Google apps" and the absence of some "smart" features in GrapheneOS default keyboard and camera apps, in comparison to software from Google. In his initial impressions post a week prior, Lamont said after an easy install there were issues with permissions for Google's Messages app, and difficulty importing contacts; Lamont then concluded, "Anyone looking for a straightforward experience may want to avoid GrapheneOS or other privacy-oriented Android experiences since the privacy gains often come at the expense of convenience and ease of use", but "GrapheneOS has so far been one of the easiest privacy experiences I've tried".

I doubt it's fruitful to discuss this at Talk:GrapheneOS, so I'm bringing this to attention of NPOVN and the editors. (Legal attribution: Statement from the GrapheneOS article, authors Special:Contributions/84.250.14.116 and User:Yae4.) 84.250.14.116 (talk) 17:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Took the liberty of highlighting repetitions of similar phrases on "ease" of install, which the OP wants to add again. Also noting lack of consensus on reliability of this source, which the author's own words called a "post", and appearance of "advert infested click bait" group blog quality. The OP here is insisting on keeping their preferred questionable quality sources, while preventing the usage of WP:PRIMARY sources almost entirely, which is a related issue. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

For the latter statements: See Talk:GrapheneOS#Jonathan Lamont's review at MobileSyrup for my review of the source. The place to discuss reliability of sources is WP:RSN, editors should focus on neutral point of view here. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Discussing how to neutrally present information from an unreliable source is a waste of time, and as you know, there has been little uninvolved editors interested at WP:RSN recently for other similar discussions. -- Yae4 (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

None of this seems like information of enduring interest that belongs in an encyclopedia. Sennalen (talk) 03:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Sennalen; certainly In his initial impressions post a week prior, Lamont said ... use." is unnecessary. Why are we putting so much weight on one reviewer's opinion of an OS? Ovinus (talk) 04:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Lamont, Jonathan (13 March 2022). "I replaced Android on a Pixel 3 with an Android-based privacy OS". MobileSyrup. Blue Ant Media. Retrieved 6 July 2022.
2. ^ Lamont, Jonathan (20 March 2022). "A week with GrapheneOS exposed my over-reliance on Google". MobileSyrup. Blue Ant Media. Retrieved 6 July 2022.

NPOV issues in some sections at Space Race

There seems to be an NPOV issue in Space Race in which there are concerns that some or all of that article may be unjustifiably skewed towards pro-USSR/Russian viewpoints. Attempts to rectify the issue had been made by me and others, such as the addition of this edit out of the belief that they are of pertinence to the presentation of the information within this article.

Unfortunately, around two editors had reverted those under the very vague reasons of "unencyclopedic", "trivia" or "not suited here", and as it reached 3RR I first attempted to reach one of the reverters at talk page to discuss the issue, but found out that it was semi-protected. Thus I'd had initially brought the issue to the article talk page for discussion or solicit third opinions from subject matter experts.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Space_Race&diff=1096178509&oldid=1096115562

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Space_Race&diff=1096429619&oldid=1096427505

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Space_Race&diff=1096430709&oldid=1096430480

As the discussion went on, I proofread the article once again and found out more issues:

• The "Origins" section gives more coverage to Soviet rocket development whereas American ones like Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT were left out, the latter makes the statement This left the United States as the only one of the major three World War II powers not to have its own rocket program, until Von Braun and his engineers were expatriated in 1945. inaccurate.

• Within the Robotic lunar probes section, the Soviet's Luna mission were given relatively meticulous attention (such as failure attempts) and America's early Thor-Able probes in the Pioneer program were ignored. At a glance readers would take that US has less failure rate that the USSR, but deep down it gave another wrong impression that US has a late footing than Russia and "didn't try hard enough" in terms of lunar probes launching attempts whether successful or not.

• The Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine in the "See also" section, which should just be in namesake satellite page as it's a bit out of scope in this article, appears to be something that "spikes the football" for Russia, in spite of original editor's intentions when adding the link to here. Fixed

• By standards which the editors in that discussion had used in this case, the following passage in the article is conceivably "trivia" or "irrelevant" as well:

Valentina Tereshkova, was launched into space on Vostok 6 on June 16, 1963, as (possibly) a medical experiment. She was the only one to fly of a small group of female parachutist factory workers (unlike the male cosmonauts who were military test pilots), chosen by the head of cosmonaut training because he read a tabloid article about the "Mercury 13" group of women wanting to become astronauts, and got the mistaken idea that NASA was actually entertaining this. Procedurally dropped due to WP:BURNOUT related to Chronic Covid Syndrome.

At least for me, it fails Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial#Space_and_balance as it is skewed towards pro Russian viewpoint, no matter how subtle it is. In a larger way, it could invite animosity among WP:READERS in the context of 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

They could get an impression that USSR/Russia's achievements were overrated or bloated to the detriment of the US, even though there is a dictum in the FAQ at the article talk page header stating that the race resulted in a tie and no one "won" the race. As a result some of them would go dig deeper and find out that there are nuances or caveats behind those achievements and proceed to either edit the page or just make a fuss about it. If it's reverted or so on then they could easily switch to the latter, where it could very well become something like the Streisand effect and produce a perception that Misplaced Pages violated WP:NPOV conventions by "secretly loving Russia" in here which I fear could produce net harm to the project in the long term.

As the discussion there had headed into a deadlock, with no input from subject matter experts as of yet, I have decided to raise this issue at this noticeboard. Any help would be appreciated in resolving this NPOV issue. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 10:30, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Deadlock is certainly one way to describe all other editors agreeing your edits were poor. Andyjsmith gave a particularly well-worded explanation here, which I suggest reading again given your repeated assertion that explanations have been vague. CMD (talk) 13:41, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

In light of your helpful advice to read his statement again while checking the sections where the proposed edits about the Ranger probe and Ham the chimp is at, I've found out that the use of the word "first" was less prevalent than expected, thus I'll be happy to drop the two proposed edits, for now.

However, as for the third proposed edit regarding Alan Shepard, I think it should be okay if we slip in a brief statement that he landed while inside his spacecraft while leaving the extraneous lines into articles that which are "in-depth", such as the adjacent Timeline of the Space Race, where a longstanding consensus including even subject matter experts exist to uphold and preserve the passage which in turn helps maintain WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Example.

It remains to be seen how the newfound other NPOV issues listed in the bulleted points above will be handled. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 17:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Just made a strike on a bullet point due to this edit.204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Switching to other marking options. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

At best, the assertion that one organization might not have recognized Gargarin's flight as a valid spaceflight at the time is a minor aspect that should not be given undue weight. Whether that historical-definitional issue warrants any degree of passing mention on one or more articles can be discussed on the relevant talkpage(s). It certainly does not need to be discussed in every article where Gagarin's or Shepard's flights are mentioned. The consensus here and on other related discussions is sufficiently clear that I see no need for an RfC as had been proposed.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First human spaceflight

The dispute has by now extended to Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race where after a short RR, me and User:TompaDompa had temporarily restored the following passage while marking it up for discussion.

First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft and thus the first complete human spaceflight by then FAI definitions.

Relevant references:

• http://www.techrepublic.com/article/geek-trivia-a-leap-of-fakes
• https://www.seeker.com/gagarins-falsified-flight-record-1765739082.html
• https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/why-yuri-gagarin-remains-first-man-space-even-though-he-did-not-land-inside-his

The side advocating the removal claimed their rationale on the grounds of WP:MINORASPECT, although there was long and implicit consensus to preserve the passage before today. Conversely, me and perhaps some others like subject matter expert User:JustinTime55 who had upheld the passage because FAI rules at 1960s required takeoff and landing inside spacecraft. In this case, distinction matters and it would violate WP:DUE and WP:NPOV and become a case of WP:POVDELETION if the fact was left out.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&diff=753862145&oldid=753803108

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timeline_of_space_exploration&diff=787659288&oldid=787604255

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&diff=prev&oldid=787604332

Taking account of other editors' concerns about WP:MINORASPECT while mindful of Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial#Space_and_balance where suppression of information risk making more problems rather than resolution, I had attempted to relegate the passage into a Template:NoteTag which can be seen here. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Do sources on the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race (respectively) give significant weight to the distinction of being the first astronaut to land inside the spacecraft? I took a quick look at some such sources ( and , respectively) and they did not, but that could of course have been a non-representative sample. However, if they do not, this is a WP:MINORASPECT that should not be included because An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject.I'll also note that https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/why-yuri-gagarin-remains-first-man-space-even-though-he-did-not-land-inside-his (cited above) says The conclusion of the delegates was to rework the parameters of human spaceflight to recognize that the great technological accomplishment of spaceflight was the launch, orbiting and safe return of the human, not the manner in which he or she landed. Gagarin and Titov's records remained on the FAI books. and as is true with any sports organization, the FAI reserved the right to reexamine and reinterpret its rules in light of new knowledge and circumstances. Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight. So going by that source, the assertion that Shepard's was the first "proper" spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view that must not be included. TompaDompa (talk) 20:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Taking reliability issue aside, Russian state media agency TASS had described that the view was even held by NASA which then attempted to get FAI to not recognize Yuri Gagarin as a cosmonaut and instead be referred as a parachute jumper.

• https://tass.com/science/868892

In this respect it is not really a fringe view, but rather something that had made it to mainstream but underreported, due to the falsification and suppression of information on this aspect by the former Soviet Union.204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I removed "First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft and thus the first complete human spaceflight by then FAI definitions." and its associated references from both Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race as per WP:FALSEBALANCE. This is definitely a minority / fringe view and should not be included in either timeline. The only reason this requirement was on the initial Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules is that it was a carry-over from aviation, the FAI subsequently amended these rules that make it clear this issue was irrelevant to Yuri Gagarin's achievements, refer to this reference for the complete explanation. This issue is already explaned on the Yuri Gagarin, however it would create a WP:FALSEBALANCE to included it in an other article, particularly the "Timeline" articles.Ilenart626 (talk)

The sidebar in the often-invoked WP:FALSEBALANCE contains a passage from BBC Trust's policy stating that This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinized. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.

In fact, as said before the view was the direct product of 1960s FAI rules, rather than some hodge podgey theories drawn up by some tin foilers like flat Earth believers. Implications or conclusions by virtue of classical textualism had been drawn from the interpretation of the FAI rules through reliable sources like the Tech Republic and Discovery Channel's Seeker (media company), although at that time as you mentioned, FAI gave in and retroactively mark him as the first man to fly in space out of pure practicality, mostly because many other spaceflights had already occurred by the time the scandal was uncovered. If TASS is to be believed, NASA had at one point attempt to use the grounds to persuade FAI to refer Gagarin as a parachutist. Even today, the view still appears in discussions related to Yuri Gagarin.

Because of these, the information that was embodied in the passage clearly falls into the quoted BBC Trust's policy as above. However, for now within the list articles I think it would be more appropriate to make it into Template:NoteTag, with an option of revisiting this to see whether to restore to a full blown text after half a year. This is because, from an eventualist lens, the ever increasing unpopularity against Russia due to the invasion of Ukraine can plausibly cause views expressing skepticism against Russian achievements in general, such as the one being discussed here, to be re-popularised and ending up on mainstream opinion, just like WP:CCC. This is not helped by the recent fact that Russian cosmonauts had displayed separatist flags on the International Space Station. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 09:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The ability to perform a soft and safe landing of the descent capsule was quite an important technological distinction at that time, as well. It's why there was a longstanding and implicit consensus to preserve the passage for more than five years until now. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 10:07, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Just think about this perspective; it is the equivalent of Charles Lindbergh deadhanding his plane to Paris while bailing out onto a ship somewhere near the Irish coast. There was even an investigation by FAI itself on whether to disqualify Gagarin before budging out of practicality. In the grand scheme of things when covering events in the era where technological achievements and feats are showcased by either side of the Atlantic, that passage goes right into something we call a MacGuffin at least. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 10:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Astronautica, despite some inaccuracies since it was not really up to date, had a footnote directly in Gagarin's entry of its manned spaceflight list page mentioning the caveat that he bailed out of flight with the implication that the record would be rejected by the FAI in normal circumstances. Keep note that the almanac was endorsed by the American Astronautical Society's History Committee in terms of credibility while NASA regularly refers its readers to it. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 13:19, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

NASA website describes Gagarin's flight as the first human spaceflight. TASS is not reliable to state that NASA actually considers his flight a parachute jump.

The story about FAI rules technicality is classified by TechRepublic as 'geek trivia', which it probably is.

On the substance of the matter, neither Shephard's Mercury-Redstone 3 or most of the modern spacecraft such as Soyuz and Crew Dragon are capable of performing a controlled landing in the sense old FAI rules required: the last phase of the flight is parachuting followed by an impact. PaulT2022 (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Except that, unlike the other examples you've brought up, Gagarin ejected himself out of the spacecraft before touchdown. As said before, this is an equivalent of Charles Lindbergh deadhanding Spirit of St. Louis to Paris while bailing out onto a ship somewhere near the Irish coast. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 13:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The NASA link which you've posted here said that This material is being kept online for historical purposes. Though accurate at the time of publication, it is no longer being updated. The page may contain broken links or outdated information, and parts may not function in current web browsers. Visit NASA.gov for current information, just as a note. According to the page, textually speaking, they merely state that Gagarin was the first to orbit the Earth.204.15.72.92 (talk) 13:32, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

From a quick Google books search, I was able to uncover the following:

• The Race: The Complete True Story of How America Beat Russia to the Moon by TIME correspondent James L. Schefter. Page unknown.

The problem was, under FAI rules, a pilot must stay with his ship from takeoff to landing. ail out and it doesn't count.

• Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo. Page 24.

Years later, when Russian officials admitted that Gagarin had ejected from the Vostok 1 spacecraft during descent and did not land in the same craft in which he started his journey, some FAI officials raised a technicality that questioned the official status of his “first-in-spaceflight” record. Founded in 1905, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) is the world organization responsible for setting standards and keeping records within the fields of aeronautics and astronautics. In 1961, the FAI rules required that a pilot (that is, an astronaut or cosmonaut) must land with the spacecraft to be considered as having achieved an official spaceflight worthy of entry into the FAI book of records.

It was the second source stating that it was FAI officials and not average Joes that raised the technicality of his "first in spaceflight" record. That itself says a lot. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Here's a document by James Oberg which has just been found.204.15.72.92 (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

• http://www.jamesoberg.com/red_star_in_orbit_04_Gagarin_only.pdf

This uncertainty came to a head in Paris three months later, when the International Aeronautical Federation, or FAI (the acronym for the French name), convened a meeting to certify the world records being claimed for the flight. A longstanding FAI rule could have meant an embarrassing propaganda defeat: to qualify for any new world flying records, a pilot must take off and land in his aircraft or spacecraft. The rule book was quite explicit on this point.

As it turned out, the Vostok capsule was equipped with an ejection seat, which served to catapult the pilot clear of the booster in the event of a launch failure. The same system was to be used during the final descent to earth, since the three-ton spherical landing capsule did not pack a parachute large enough to ensure a gentle (or even a survivable) landing. The pilot was supposed to fire the ejection seat at about 10,000 feet and come down separately. Gagarin had almost certainly used this method.

In Paris, the FAI director-general confronted the Soviet delegate with the crucial question: “Where was the pilot on in return in relation to the space vehicle?” Perhaps sensing a plot to deny the Soviet Union its rightful recognition, the Soviet spokesman loudly protested: “Ask the Americans if the U.S.A. believes that these records claimed for Gagarin were actually made. All the people of the world have already endorsed Gagarin’s flight and have accepted it as fact.” The wrangling went on for five hours, with the FAI officials demanding documentation that Gagarin had landed inside the ship and the Soviet delegates denouncing such requirements as obstructionist and insulting.

Finally, as dinnertime approached, the FAI officials gave in and agreed to certify the Soviet version of the flight that Gagarin had been inside the capsule. Subsequently, when foreign newsmen asked for evidence that Gagarin had landed inside the ship, Soviet officials would point to the FAI certification as independent proof of their claims. But as the proverb goes, nobody has a good enough memory to be a successful liar. A year later cosmonaut Popovich was asked how he landed, and without checking he blurted out, “Like Titov and Gagarin, I landed outside the ship”; in 1964 the three-man Voskhod capsule would include a small retrorocket to cushion the final landing, and boastful Soviet space officials would point to it as “the first time that a crew could land in its ship.” Ten years later a book by chief Soviet space correspondent Evgeny Riabchikov would describe how the Vostok came down in a plowed field while Gagarin himself came down in a pasture near a deep ravine.

Still, that isn't 1971 yet, when the full details of his landing came out.204.15.72.92 (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The paragraph from Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo. Page 24 continues with Despite the subsequent FAI record challenge based on a technicality within the rules, Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight.

More importantly, none of the sources you've provided state that Shepard performed the first human spaceflight. They say that based on a technicality, in the opinion of authors (but not FAI), Gagarin's flight should've been disqualified from being recognized as an official record. This is different from the statement made in this edit.

What these sources would support is a footnote stating something along the lines of: Some authors speculate that in the case if FAI were to reject Gagarin's record based on a technicality, Shepard may have been considered to perform the first spaceflight.

We don't have a way to know whether FAI would've accepted Gagarin's record if they knew about bailing out, and neither whether Shepard's landing would've been considered the record by the same rules. Its all pure speculation and should be presented with appropriate wording and weight.

I agree with the opinion of editors who stated that its UNDUE, however, inclusion of a footnote about existing speculation could be useful for readers that share IP address's opinion about expressing skepticism against Russian achievements in general. PaulT2022 (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

That's a great start! Furthermore in page 109 of Nicholas de Monchaux's Spacesuit: Fashioning Apollo, the following passage was shown:

The particulars of this process, and the fact of Gagarin's separate landing, were not revealed until 1978.

A reference tag was marked on the sentence within the book. Since according to the sources so far, the FAI had questioned the veracity of Soviet's record for two times, specifically after Titov's flight and during the 1970s, I was wondering whether it could lead to sources that can confirm that the latter had happened. I'll see if my local bookstore has the book this weekend.

On the articles, the proposed note tag text can also be worded as,

Some sources speculated that per the interpretation of FAI definitions in 1961, Shepard, rather than Gagarin, may have been considered to complete the first human spaceflight mission. This is due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. However, later on FAI eventually recognised Gagarin as the first human to fly into space due to practical reasons.

204.15.72.92 (talk) 16:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

However, later on FAI eventually recognised Gagarin as the first human to fly into space due to practical reasons. - every word here is a misrepresentation:

1. FAI recognised Gagarin's flight from the beginning

2. sources don't doubt the Gagarin was the first human to fly into space; they discuss whether FAI should've recognized this as a specific type of a record

3. 'practical' reasons that made FAI consider Gagarin's flight the first flight is an entirely unfounded speculation

What this sentence probably should say instead is something like FAI later changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished (paraphrasing the penultimate paragraph from here)

PaulT2022 (talk) 17:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

So the text would instead be Some sources speculated that per the interpretation of FAI definitions in 1961, Shepard, rather than Gagarin, may have been considered to complete the first human spaceflight mission. This is due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. However FAI later changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished.

Thanks. I'll wait for comments from others about this proposed solution before putting those onto the Timeline pages while moving on to discuss other issues in Space Race, including the omission of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with 'however': it implies a contradiction, whereas sources say the rules were updated to reflect differences between piloting spaceships and airships.

I think 'the interpretation' is also inappropriate: clearly its not the only one as FAI interpreted them to recognise Gagarin's flight instead of Shepard's. Probably should say 'per formalistic interpretation', 'per alternative interpretation' or something similar.

Ultimately, sources see this as a WP:FRINGE viewpoint and while I see a merit for its inclusion in a footnote, it shouldn't be described as anything different from what it is; definitely not as a some sort of truth kept secret by FAI as implied by the proposed wording. PaulT2022 (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Is there a source to state that the Shepard's flight would've indeed been the one recognised instead? Not being picky, just realised his flight was suborbital, so its not automatically obvious that it would've met the criteria. PaulT2022 (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I think WP:BLUESKY would apply here as Shepard's flight was directly after Gagarin's making the former the second man in space, which has the logical implication of Freedom 7 being the first spaceflight instead had Vostok 1 been disqualified. Temporarily taking aside all these, presently it's a known and well established fact that he landed within his spacecraft whereas Gagarin did not. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Not only its well established, but its been reported by New York Times in "SOVIET CLARIFIES GAGARIN'S FLIGHT" 8 May 1961 p39, two months before FAI acknowledged Gagarin's records. The implication that Shepard was therefore first to fly to space because of landing method used by the Soviets never surfaced at the time. To the best of my understanding, none of the sources linked above makes such connection either. PaulT2022 (talk) 03:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

At about 7,000 metres (23,000 ft), Gagarin ejected from the descending capsule as planned and landed using a parachute. There were concerns Gagarin's spaceflight record would not be certified by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), the world governing body for setting standards and keeping records in the field, which at the time required that the pilot land with the craft. Gagarin and Soviet officials initially refused to admit that he had not landed with his spacecraft, an omission which became apparent after Titov's flight on Vostok 2 four months later. Gagarin's spaceflight records were nonetheless certified and reaffirmed by the FAI, which revised its rules, and acknowledged that the crucial steps of the safe launch, orbit, and return of the pilot had been accomplished. Gagarin is internationally recognised as the first human in space and first to orbit the Earth.

Q: Didn't Alan Shepard technically make the first human spaceflight?
A: No. This idea stems from old Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules carried over from aviation stipulating that the pilot had to land inside the vessel, while Yuri Gagarin parachuted out of Vostok 1. The FAI decided to certify Gagarin's record and amended their rules to not require landing inside the spacecraft as they judged that landing safely was the important part. Gagarin is almost universally recognized as having made the first human spaceflight, and the conception that he did not is a WP:FRINGE view.

@TompaDompa I agree completely with WP:FRINGE / WP:MINORASPECT. Not only its minor, but the implication that if FAI were not to recognise Gagarin's records would imply that he didn't fly to space is unsourced, as far as I understand. (FAI doesn't recognise primacy in the space race or the fact of the space flight; and Gagarin's flight was orbital, far above the required altitude and likely tracked by the US tracking stations. So it would've only affected FAI recognition of the altitude/duration of an orbital flight record.)

Having said that, the problem is not it was controversial because of the bail out decades ago (it wasn't - see this contemporary NYT article from 8 May 1961 for example), but that it became controversial now, because there are people eager to debunk Russian claims and achievements assuming that they're potential lies. (For example: https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2022/03/yuri-gagarin-gets-memory-holed-by-american-space-advocacy-group https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/12/putins-schoolboy-hero-inspiring-invasion-ukraine/)

James Oberg's quote above is alleged to be from the 70s. However, he himself mentions in the PDF that he reworked his article and book, and the part quoted above seems to be plagiarised from The cosmonaut who couldn't stop smiling by Andrew Jenks, pp.148-150, published in 2012. Jenks attributes the entire story about FAI concerns to his 2007 interview with a local teacher from Saratov, who also happens to be an amateur historian interested in the space race. Jenks also references two local untraceable newspapers without naming article authors, so its conceivable that they're written by the same teacher. Seeker article appears to be a rewrite of either James or Oberg (judging by the narrative structure). The rest of the sources who mention FAI being at odds about recognising Gagarin's primacy in space don't reference where the story comes from; it is possible that they're basing it on Jenks, as no pre-2007 sources that would talk about this controversy were presented.

I think that explaining why Gagarin is named/listed as first in space would be useful for readers who come to Misplaced Pages after reading fringe theories. Agree that its best if it would not be phrased as debunking because of legitimisation concerns. And definitely not in the proposed wording that would imply that FAI stole space race victory from Shepard.

Perhaps a contemporaneous source can be found that would say that FAI reaffirmed the Gagarin's flight eligibility after reviewing the landing method? Linking it as a reference for anyone in doubt would be better than a custom footnote. If such source doesn't exist, then its really problematic for adding anything as the only source I was able to trace is the teacher from Saratov mentioned by Jenks, and the rest appear to copy from him. None of them really makes a clear connection that if Gagarin's records wouldn't have been recognised by FAI, primacy of his flight would be somehow invalidated. PaulT2022 (talk) 05:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

James Oberg's book Red star in orbit which was published in 1981, contains the exact long passage regarding the confrontation between FAI officials and Soviet delegates at page 55. The Encyclopedia Astronautica was more explicit that Gagarin would not qualify for all the FAI spaceflight records as the 1961 sporting code mandated every flight, including spaceflight as something which must involve the presence of pilot in their craft during takeoff and landing. It was interpreted by the Tech Republic that:

Thus, he did not "legally" complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body.

Moreover, according to those sources, the records of both Gagarin's and Shepard's were examined at that time, while Smithsonian noted the following:

If nationals from two different countries claim a record, it is the FAI's job to examine the submitted documentation and make a ruling as to who has accomplished the feat first.

With above, the note tag would serve as a Macguffin in those articles. Besides that, landing safely while inside the spacecraft is an impressive feat on its own, particularly given the context of that era and the Charles Lindbergh analogy. "First in space" or "First to fly into space", and "First to complete spaceflight", although similar at a glance, can carry a different meaning. It's not just something like whether Pluto is a planet; rather Gagarin was only a hair breadth from being disqualified before FAI gave in. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 08:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The point you're missing is, as evident from the contemporaneous publications, as well as FAI website, it certified three records for Gagarin's flight: duration of orbital flight, greatest altitude of orbital flight and greatest mass lifted in orbit. It certified two records for Shepard's non-orbital flight, in two different categories, for a sub-orbital flight. FAI never certified the record for who was first to fly to space.

You've supplied sources that say that because FAI recognised Gagarin's records, his primacy in space is unquestionable, and that the Soviets made contradicting statements about his landing to secure FAI records regardless of its ruling. There's no question about it. However, after reading all sources carefully, I can't find anything to support the claim that were his three orbital flight records not to be recognised, Shepard would've been considered the first man in space instead. PaulT2022 (talk) 12:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

What we have is a WP:FRINGE view and a WP:MINORASPECT. Everything else is beside the point. I'm removing the fringe/undue material from article space. TompaDompa (talk) 13:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Prematurely closing this discussion would be akin to saying a given political candidate had won the election when there are uncounted postal votes that could result in a loss or a tie. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 17:10, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Now you're just straight-up WP:WikiLawyering, and poorly at that. I didn't close the discussion and Most conversations do not need to be closed. per WP:WHENCLOSE. Silence is the weakest form of consensus per WP:SILENTCONSENSUS and it has now been challenged—several editors here agree that this is not appropriate to include. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. per WP:ONUS. You are promoting what is per the sources a WP:FRINGE view in article space. TompaDompa (talk) 18:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, it would be more precise to state that it is (or was) a significant minority view rather than a "fringe" opinion, as it was the FAI officials that raise the technicality to the Soviet delegates. This states that Views held by a significant minority should be included, but should not be given as extensive coverage as majority views. To do so would overstate the extent of controversy. Aside from those, one thing which I notice that was overlooked from this discussion so far is that there is subtle yet significant etymological differences between "first man in space", "first human spaceflight mission", and "technically completing the first human spaceflight mission". It is not helpful to move the goalpost within this context, such as conflating the three altogether. I will make a table here to explain it easier.

The sources simply implied Point 3 based on the formalistic interpretation of 1961 FAI rules. Moreover, aside from WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:CHILDPROTECT (due to an unfortunate fact that a thread attempting to do p*do advocacy is just above this Outpost Tavern), there is an interesting caveat in WP:NPOV in the form of WP:NONAZIS prohibiting views that attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany, Nazism and the likes from appearing on Misplaced Pages, presumably broadly construed. It is more than the simplistic discontent among readers.

As time goes on, we may very well see the editing community outlawing any edits or views that promote Russocentric totalitarian beliefs like Rashism or Russkiy Mir (Russian world) in the same fashion as above. When it happens any contents within any topic that is deemed too slanted towards pro-Russian viewpoints will be up for challenge, as with concurrent to the discrediting of Russophilic ideologies, a section in WP:NORACISTS states that racists generally believes in That their culture is superior to others and editors would want to err on the safe side, particularly given the association of Gagarin mythos by Putin with his war and Russia in general, and the display of separatist flags by Russian cosmonauts within the International Space Station.

This is entirely similar to the Midas Curse. In fact as per this Vanity Fair article which is already put here, the beginning had already started. Hence, if we remove the passage in the name of fixing "false balance", more likely than not we'd be ending up reinventing the wheel and end up on the starting point once again which by all means is going to be unnecessarily disruptive to all of us. Considering that the retention of passage in full may be akin to fighting fire with fire and causing undue weight, at this time the rewritting of passage into something as anodyne as possible and subsequent relegation into a note tag may be the least bad solution out, within the situation that is like between rock and a hard place.

I digress, indeed. But the gist is circumstances may wildly change so much that it would be better not to commit the sin of omission of throwing the baby out with the water. In the meantime only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft would remain as main text within the articles, because what's the point of having to eject from spaceships like Soyuz or Dragon every time when there is a room of improvement to eliminate this major discomfort? It's an impressive and significant technological advancement on its own, despite being a "one small step".204.15.72.92 (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Technically completing the first human spaceflight mission by 1961 FAI definitions? - this is unsourced, as there's no reliable source that states FAI ever recognised who made the first human spaceflight (besides the Angelo's childrens' book written by a non-expert), and its trivial to verify that FAI indeed didn't make such judgement.

I retract my previous statements about merit existing to include this speculation, which indeed could've been there because of Russocentric concerns. As it stands now, its a speculation by two editors, not supported by a known reliable source. PaulT2022 (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The mentioned Tech Republic source stated that Gagarin Thus, he did not “legally” complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body". But at this stage, I'd be happy to rewrite the proposed notetag into a more anodyne manner.204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

How about nixing the explanatory footnote and instead using the {{FAQ}} template in the manner I suggested above? TompaDompa (talk) 18:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@TompaDompa: Thanks for the creation of the FAQ pages; don't forget Timeline of space exploration and also Space age. We're still in the process on whether to go a little bit WP:IGNOREALLRULES to move the Tech Republic and/or Smithsonian citations to the respective Gagarin's sections, given that most readers don't really bother to click the link to the talk page and the wider context which I think I had repeated ad infinitum here.204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:39, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

This is getting rather tiresome. No, we're obviously not going to WP:Ignore all rules to go out of our way to get people to read WP:FRINGE views. If people don't read the FAQ debunking a WP:FRINGE theory unless they are looking for it because most readers don't really bother to click the link to the talk page, that would in fact be a feature rather than a bug. By trying to get people to read about a WP:FRINGE view, you are promoting a WP:FALSEBALANCE—surely you must realize this? TompaDompa (talk) 20:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea, for now. Besides that, it might be helpful to put the Tech Republic and Smithsonian links into the Yuri Gagarin sections of both the Timeline articles where they would just be a "further reading" directing users to outside resources that contains the view while simultaneously affirming Gagarin's "first in space" record. That would be anodyne enough to allay concerns of "pro-Russian whitewashing", while adhering to WP:DUEWEIGHT. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 19:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm against as these articles don't say what records FAI was involved with, effectively spreading disinformation by omission. For anyone interested, contemporaneous NYT article specifies, some digging on FAI website allows to find answer as well.

It happened just about the exact time the events in Oberg's long passage happened. Note that there was still only circumstantial evidences that Gagarin jumped. According to Stephen Walker's book Beyond: The Astonishing Story of the First Human to Leave Our Planet and Journey into Space, there were even initial newspaper reports in Saratov that Gagarin jumped, only to be destroyed by the KGB. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Correction: The information somehow leaked out through the Iron Curtain and picked up by some Italian newspapers mere days after Vostok 1. RadioTV Svizzera's journalist Paolo Attivissimo has a Twitter thread of it with translations. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 14:56, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention that inclusion of these links is against WP:EL guideline. PaulT2022 (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Categorically disagree with Not to mention that inclusion of these links is against WP:EL guideline. WP:ELYES states that Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons. The Smithsonian article in particular could be an ad hoc FAQ for readers, not unlike as proposed by Tompa.204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with PaulT2022 here. Don't link to sites hosting WP:FRINGE views as "further reading", obviously. TompaDompa (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The Smithsonian citation which in addition of being far more reliable than Tech Republic, is more anodyne than the latter. It has mentions of the controversy, but ultimately affirmed the fact that Gagarin was the first in space. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

No, this source doesn't have mentions of the controversy, but ultimately affirmed the fact that Gagarin was the first in space. Rather, it clarifies that there is no controversy—that the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. We shouldn't try to inform readers about WP:FRINGE views they are not already aware of. I added the link to the FAQ, because that's the appropriate place to put it in this context. TompaDompa (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Regarding you are promoting a WP:FALSEBALANCE—surely you must realize this?, maybe. However the WP:FRINGE invocation that's now being thrown around like a shibboleth also contains the BBC Trust policy that This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinized. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.

The bad thing is it is going to be in the eye of the beholder. In most times editorial disputes such as this can be affected by Misplaced Pages:GEOBIAS too. No offense, for example in America they would feel that the edit must be present in any form to maintain NPOV, while in Russia more might think it's extraneous or unnecessary "revisionism", and all of the rest could be a tossup, including apathetic attitudes like "meh, I don't care".

For the moment, I think we can soft close this discussion and move to the next topic of the inclusion of Qian Xuesen and GALCIT into Space Race, with the possibility of a re-opening at any time in case of changed circumstances; examples being the decision of Justin or other subject matter experts to weigh in, change of authoritative spaceflight timelines info (i.e. Britannica) to include the technicality amidst the rising anti-Russian sentiment, access to sources such as records from FAI or NASA that are not initially covered here which support the inclusion of the passage, or the expansion of WP:NONAZIS to prohibit the pushin pro-Russian ideologies of all spectrums. This is not to mention the possible concerns of "minority rule" on the Timeline and the space age large-traffic articles.

Move to the next? 204.15.72.92 (talk) 21:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Per the sources, the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. "Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight." and "Despite the subsequent FAI record challenge based on a technicality within the rules, Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight."—mind you that these are your sources that you brought up. Whether there was some controversy several decades ago doesn't matter—the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view now.With regard to Shepard being the first astronaut to land inside the spacecraft, sources on the topic of the articles at hand—the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race, respectively—generally do not cover this aspect. It's a WP:MINORASPECT which is not to be mentioned in these articles. If you disagree with that, demonstrate that this is incorrect by citing sources on the topic of the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race which demonstrates that this is in fact something the sources consider to be a significant aspect of these topics. TompaDompa (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

By the same logic as you had put forth, First interplanetary escape without undercarriage cutoff. would be FRINGE-y as well. However obviously that would be not germane in the discussion here due to it being in different era. Besides, WP:NOTPAPER may be of relevance while Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial#Space and balance detoured that Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers.

Otherwise, I'm more than inclined to put in the mentions of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT into Space Race, assuming that there's a go from all of you.204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Please note that the scope of this discussion isn't really limited to Gagarin and Shepard alone; the topic include other pro-Russian POV issues such as the omission of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT. However as recently COVID hit me and I'm still grappling with neurological issues, I may leave this all entirely to the community to run on its own after the issues regarding Gagarin and Qian Xuesen were resolved.

Fine. I rewrote the proposed tag ground up into the following:

Some sources reported that Vostok 1 did not meet the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale's requirements of establishing records due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. FAI changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished.

Otherwise, taking PaulT2022's suggestion, for this time I will put the Tech Republic link and some of the rest into the Timeline articles, this time as a citation on Gagarin's "first human spaceflight mission" or so, while removing the text from Alan Shepard's section which according to page history has been there for about five years. 19:10, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I kindly request not to attribute to me what I haven't said.

My opinion is the entire FAI rules argument cannot be used to speculate who could've been considered first in space unless a WP:RS presented to establish the relevance of FAI rules to Gagarin being recognised as the first human to fly in space (TechRepublic author doesn't make such judgement), at which point an informed discussion on WP:FRINGE viewpoint inclusion can be held. As of now, the proposed edit is an unsourced speculation and I'm against it per WP:VERIFIABILITY. PaulT2022 (talk) 19:34, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I kindly request not to attribute to me what I haven't said? Sure, however as the old saying goes, you can't unring a bell. Please keep that in mind next time.204.15.72.92 (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The "citation" option would not really involve the (re) addition of information per se onto the two articles per se; rather it would just be a "further reading" which directs users to outside resources that contains the view while simultaneously affirming Gagarin's "first in space" record. That would be anodyne enough to allay concerns of "pro-Russian whitewashing", while adhering to WP:DUEWEIGHT.204.15.72.92 (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Hang on! The Seeker article implied that If Gagarin and Titov both ejected before landing, the Soviet Union would lose its spot in history as the first nation to launch a man into space. But I guess it's late now. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 21:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The article then goes on to say the FAI held a special meeting of delegates to reexamine Titov's records and reconsider Gagarin's. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed. That Gagarin had orbited the Earth was the real achievement, and both his and Titov's records remain in the FAI's books. and After the decision to keep Gagarin's record intact, the early Vostok landing system went from a controversial issue to a historical oddity of the transition from flight in aircraft to spaceflight in capsules. In other words, there is no controversy and there hasn't been for decades. The idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. It's time to WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa (talk) 21:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

FTFY: there is no controversy and there hasn't been for decades yet. But fine, I'll move on to the next section for now.204.15.72.92 (talk) 21:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Seeker article has factual inaccuracies: if two nations were going to vie for the record of first in space, the FAI should have clear rules to determine a winner. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed.

These parameters were the ones claimed by the Soviets from the beginning and certified by FAI before the Titov's flight; FAI never made a determination of who was first in space.

Given the contradictions with secondary coverage in NYT and primary documents from FAI, I don't think this Seeker article can be considered to be a WP:RS per WP:REDFLAG PaulT2022 (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have an NYT subscription, can you please quote the relevant passage from it? 204.15.72.92 (talk) 22:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Its a very short note, says that FAI certified three orbital flight records for Gagarin (added here) and two for the sub-orbital Shepard's flight. Published on 23 Jul 1961.

I suppose FAI website should have the details about what records and when they've certified in open access. PaulT2022 (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Although the atmosphere was so tense because of the charged nature of the underlying issues, I feel grateful to learn about a quirk that Gagarin's record of attaining highest altitude in elliptical orbit through a one-man spacecraft remains unsurpassed. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

204.15.72.92 endlessly arguing with walls of green text does not change the fact that you are pushing WP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE issues. Suggest you get a life and stop wasting editors time with your nonsense. Ilenart626 (talk) 01:24, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you to refresh yourself with WP:CIVILITY as get a life can often be construed as appearing to ridicule another editor's comment.204.15.72.92 (talk) 09:01, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the text below as their is no consensus for adding this Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories to the talk pages of Talk:Space Age, Talk:Timeline of the Space Race

and Talk:Timeline of space exploration. Two editors is not a consensus.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q: Didn't Alan Shepard technically make the first human spaceflight? A: No. This idea stems from old Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules carried over from aviation stipulating that the pilot had to land inside the vessel, while Yuri Gagarin parachuted out of Vostok 1. The FAI decided to amend their rules to not require landing inside the spacecraft as they judged that landing safely was the important part. Gagarin is almost universally recognized as having made the first human spaceflight, and the conception that he did not is a WP:FRINGE view. See here for a more detailed explanation from the National Air and Space Museum.

Ilenart626 (talk) 09:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

1 2 3

I'm not sure how that would be different from disruptive editing.204.15.72.92 (talk) 09:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you review Misplaced Pages:Consensus Ilenart626 (talk)

Again you are introducing irrelevant information. I also note that you have reverted my edits and as per WP:STATUSQUO these should be removed until we have Misplaced Pages:Consensus Ilenart626 (talk) 10:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Once more WP:STATUSQUO states that "During a dispute discussion, you should not revert away from the status quo ante bellum until a consensus is established. Instead of reverting, insert an appropriate tag indicating the text is under discussion. If a dispute arises regarding which version is the status quo ante bellum then be the adult in the room and don't revert. Tag instead". This means that the affected pages are restored to versions like this on an interim basis, pending the outcome of this discussion.

Don't throw stones inside glass houses, next time. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 10:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmmm, English not your first language? The term status quo ante bellum is a Latin phrase meaning "the situation as it existed before the war". This means we go back to what the articles say before you added your fringe theories

Ilenart626 (talk) 11:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

According to page histories, the text had been present there for about six years by virtue of silent consensuses, along with subject matter experts such as this. At this stage, to pretend otherwise reeks of WP:JDLI.204.15.72.92 (talk) 11:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I am not terribly attached to the FAQ—it was mainly an attempt at a compromise to get the WP:FRINGE view out of article space. I don't mind the FAQ being removed. I do however very much mind 204.15.72.92 reintroducing the WP:FRINGE view to article space. You know this is a WP:FRINGE view. You agree that this is a WP:FRINGE view. There is no disagreement here about removing the WP:FRINGE view from article space—the disagreement that remains is whether the FAQ should be on the talk pages. Re-adding the WP:FRINGE view to article space at this point is purely WP:Disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. TompaDompa (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

At this point I'm okay with the text omitted from the article space of those three, simply because the time is not right yet. However the WP:POVDELETION state that Especially contentious text can be removed to the talk page if necessary, but only as a last resort, and never just deleted, which is very likely behind the rationale of putting up the FAQ templates. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 12:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, the rationale behind the FAQ is that there is an editor who promotes WP:FRINGE views who also engages in WP:BLUDGEON and WP:IDHT behaviour that makes discussing the issue extremely time-consuming and patience-trying, and the hope was that the FAQ would function as a compromise that would bring that to an end. I don't think you fully appreciate just how disruptive you are being. As Chipmunkdavis said in the section above: Deadlock is certainly one way to describe all other editors agreeing your edits were poor. Please WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa (talk) 12:37, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I was actually in acceptance the FAQ compromise when I restored the template after he barged in to remove it under the grounds of WP:STATUSQUO. In fact, prior to that I was going to move on to discuss GALCIT and the lunar probes passages on Space Race.204.15.72.92 (talk) 12:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

For the rest, the status quo ante bellum of Timeline of the Space Race and Space Age appear to be this and this respectively.204.15.72.92 (talk) 12:58, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

And the consensus here—which includes you—is that the material under discussion is WP:FRINGE and should not be included. Stop it with your disruptive WP:WikiLawyering, WP:I didn't hear that, and WP:Bludgeoning behaviour and instead WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa (talk) 13:03, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I accept my responsibility, despite presently having Chronic Covid Syndrome at the moment. However, I think that Ilenart626 should not be acting too rash either by removing the FAQ template and instead offer his comments on the discussion first.

In fact because of the charged nature of the issue I had at one point considered asking uninvolved administrator to start an WP:RFC to solicit opinions across editors who're familiar with the subject. But fine, I'll head toward the FAQ compromise as originally agreed upon then. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 13:07, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The FAQ compromise was not originally agreed upon. I proposed it, but as I said I don't mind the FAQ being removed. You are in favour of including it. Ilenart626 is opposed. I'm not entirely sure what PaulT2022 thinks. TompaDompa (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with him that it's probably better off at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group, although the WikiProject looks a little bit stale, with a defunct link in its resources section that now leads to something that's probably infested with malwares. Unfortunately I'll have to wait for others as IP address editors do not have page creation or move rights.204.15.72.92 (talk) 18:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Definitely agree that this edit that  204.15.72.92 reintroduced in the Space Age article is Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories and should be removed. I also believe the FAQ above should also be removed, but happy to wait for input from other editors Ilenart626 (talk) 12:34, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The old FAI rule, despite being perceivably pedantic, made sense in context though. They keep aviation records. If a person was the first to attempt flying across an ocean, say the Atlantic or the Pacific and crashed upon landing, the attempt is considered as a failure, even if he/she technically went from an end to another. Context matters and that's why the "asterisk" should be here to stay, even as a FAQ template relegated into talk page. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 14:47, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The edit should be removed as unsourced due to lack of WP:RS.

Where FAI is referenced (such as proposed FAQ or wording of Yuri Gagarin#Vostok 1), the vague "Gagarin's record" must never be used, as it might refer to a logbook entry or to the Soviet claim of Gagarin's three world records filed to FAI for example. It should be clear what records the concerns voiced in the sources affect.

If an FAQ is made, it probably should be maintained under Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group rather than one of the pages.

A possible way to resolve IP addresses's concerns about confused readers not understanding why Misplaced Pages claims that Gagarin was first in space, is to add a reference to a neutral source that clearly establishes Gagarin's primacy as the first person to fly to space by focusing on what was achieved, such as https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56718196 PaulT2022 (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. That would be a much more appropriate solution. The WikiProject Television's FAQ page looks set to be a useful example. While for the moment it would look very much like a stub page since there is only one question, it can be used as part of a standard operating procedure to clarify for the readers on any discrepancies in records or so on that may arise in the future, especially with the present revival of interest in space exploration. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 16:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The controversy was not mentioned in the BBC article, although BBC itself has other language reports briefly mentioning it while closing it with "the FAI approved Gagarin's spaceflight records" and "first to travel to space", not to mention the title itself.204.15.72.92 (talk) 12:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

• https://www.bbc.com/turkce/haberler-dunya-56716051
• https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/trad/science-56717342

Speaking about the controversy itself and just to explain more of the context, this would be akin to the case of Ferdinand Magellan. Despite dying in the Philippines in the middle of the circumnavigational expedition, he was widely reported in textbooks as being the first to circumnavigate the globe for many years. Now the National Geographic and History Channel had came out to ask people to think again and that someone else may deserve the true credit for being the first person to circumnavigate globe.

• https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/magellan-first-sail-around-world-think-again

• https://www.history.com/news/was-magellan-the-first-person-to-circumnavigate-the-globe

A more precise analogy can be found in Claims to the first powered flight. For example, it is arguable that Hiram Maxim had achieved a first powered heavier than air flight simply because during trials in 1894, the machine lifted and was prevented from rising by the outriggers. During its test run, all the outriggers were engaged, showing that it had developed enough lift to take off, but in so doing, it pulled up the track; the tethered "flight" was aborted in time to prevent disaster, with exactly the same vein used to justify Gagarin's claim. To put it simply, it left the rail, flew a little ways only to crash. But is he remembered as the first man to fly a heavier-than-air?

Moreover, Alberto Santos-Dumont rather than Wright Brothers was recognised in Brazil as the first person to make a flight simply because it's the first of their kind recognised by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. There were differing views of criteria in order to gain recognition as first heavier than air flight too and within such backdrops no doubt there's a point to be nitpicky by law and by fact records, just like the list of firsts in aviation with First confirmed manned powered flight made by Clément Ader in particular, coupled with the present wider turbulent context, not helped with this Newsweek article from two months ago alleging Gagarin of touching the Queen's leg. There'd still be the argument on whether to classify John Glenn's Friendship 7 as technically the first to complete the first human orbital spaceflight by the strict interpretation, had Shepard beat Gagarin into space. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 19:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

By now the rough consensus appeared to favor the restoration of the FAQ templates, so I had proceeded to edit the according articles' talk pages. However, those templates may be superseded if it's decided to move the information to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group/FAQ pursuant to PaulT2022's suggestions. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 11:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

"Rough" is certainly one way to describe the consensus with adding the FAQ. You support, I oppose but happy to see other Editors opinions, @TompaDompa: does not mind it being removed and @PaulT2022: stated "If an FAQ is made, it probably should be maintained under Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group rather than one of the pages." In other words, their is no consensus to add the FAQ to Talk:Space Age, Talk:Timeline of space exploration or Talk:Timeline of the Space Race. Therefore I am reverting your "Rough consensus" edits as their is no consensus.

PaulT2022 also made a very useful proposal to "...add a reference to a neutral source that clearly establishes Gagarin's primacy as the first person to fly to space by focusing on what was achieved, such as https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56718196". I agree that this is worthwhile and will add this reference.

As TompaDompa has already suggested, IP address WP:drop the stick. Ilenart626 (talk)

There is an implicit consensus which would be best indicated in this improvement edit made by @TompaDompa: made immediately after Paul's feedback. Aside from that, your reversion had also orphaned the page; you'd be better off not acting too rash next time.

WP:KOOLAID said that However, speaking out against consensus and policy is not disruptive if it is done with civility, while we had already circled the wagon so many times regarding the problems that would arise if the passage was completely left out, even as a template in talk page. I'm pretty sure you have noticed the guideline stating that especially contentious content should be relegated to the talk page rather than deleted.

In fact, I was in agreement with @PaulT2022: that it is best moved to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group, most certainly as a subpage. By then the move and the inclusion of templates in affected pages would not be mutually exclusive since editing those templates individually across multiple pages is set to be exhaustive without that "centralization", and likely not be as "odd" in terms of styles as it is under the subpage of the Timeline of the Space Race talkspace. To put it simply, if there is something to add to the template, they can simply edit the centralized page over at the WikiProject conveniently.

This is not to mention that despite the heated discussion between me and Ilenart626, I have to agree with the latter that this thread is not to be hard closed and instead left open of further comments from other editors and readers. This is due to the fact that there is no participation from members, particularly subject matter experts like JustinTime55 who're actually listed in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. In most times this can be quite problematic as this can be construed as WP:SHAMCONSENSUS or precisely unrepresentative consensus, although to avoid filibustering it's better if we can settle on something first, in this case the move of the information to the Wikiproject FAQs, like a "checkpoint" in a game. Unfortunately I may need further assistance to perform the move as IP editors do not have move permissions 204.15.72.92 (talk) 11:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Otherwise, it might be possible to simply merge the FAQ onto the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group front page itself, as a "FAQ for readers". Not to mention that foreign language BBC articles like this made mentions of the controversy but ultimately closing it out with "the FAI approved Gagarin's spaceflight records" and "first to travel to space". 204.15.72.92 (talk) 12:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is no implicit consensus to include the FAQ, and adjusting its phrasing doesn't create one. Stop misrepresenting the discussion as you have repeatedly done. TompaDompa (talk) 14:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding implicit consensus and stop misrepresentating the discussion, like it or not due to the improvement edit, by the views of WP:COMMONSENSE it can be broadly interpreted as being "hmm, okay" with it. As for the very latter, no, quite the opposite and not the first time. Instead, aside from the "implicit consensus", I see that you had mistaken my brief restoration edits of interim nature pursuant to WP:STATUSQUO and WP:PROCESSFIRST as disruptive, while giving no condemnation to edits made by Ilenart626. Please note that at worst it reeks of double standards and even be construed as gaslighting, which of course would not be taken kindly by the editing community. (Disclaimer: The original computer network was down not unlike the 2022 Rogers Communications outage so I have to use another network at another place, hence the address difference).

In light of an insight made by a very experienced editor and GA reviewer, turns out that we are not really arguing about scientific questions and instead over the semantics of a few words. Hence we have to consider the possibility of returning to the very starting point after going through a large circle, although with few modifications such as more citations in the affected pages along with the addition of FAQ in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. The only solace would be the learning of an interesting fact where Gagarin's record of attaining highest altitude in elliptical orbit through a one-man spacecraft remains unsurpassed.

After all, I have to strongly agree with his insight as per Dictionary of lexicography By R. R. K. Hartmann, Gregory James, an encyclopedic definition is more concerned with encyclopedic knowledge (facts) than linguistic concerns. Within the pages like Timeline of space exploration, the passage instead would be just like those that distinguised both successful and failed Mars probes in terms of firsts specifically Mars 1 and Mariner 4, alongside New Horizons' Last original encounter with one of the nine major planets recognized in 1981. These were allowed to stand without much fuss, making this more akin to unnecessarily make a mountain out of a molehill from that perspective alone. If this debacle occurs on Simple English Misplaced Pages, then you might have a point as that Misplaced Pages is described by Tim Dowling of The Guardian newspaper that "the Simple English version tends to stick to commonly accepted facts". 193.233.171.17 (talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

like it or not due to the improvement edit, by the views of WP:COMMONSENSE it can be broadly interpreted as being "hmm, okay" with it – I'm the one who made the improvement edit. I'm telling you that I don't agree that it means that the FAQ should be included. You could have asked me what I thought rather than assuming that I would be in favour of including the FAQ, and it's not like my approval would instantly create consensus in favour of including the FAQ anyway. The reason I called your edits disruptive is that you agree that the material is WP:FRINGE, that there is no controversy, and that the material does not belong in article space—and yet you added the material to article space to make a WP:POINT. I already told you this. You are being disruptive by promoting WP:FRINGE views that you acknowledge are fringe views, by WP:Bludgeoning the discussion, and by refusing to WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa (talk) 05:45, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

IMO this isn't a scientific question, it is a question on the mere definition of a mere word in the English language "spaceflight" and other synonyms. In most areas it goes by the common meaning of the term and IMO what Yuri did is included within that. But the article can and should cover "who was first" under other prominent definitions. North8000 (talk) 12:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the insight which I had neglected in this discussion so far.204.15.72.92 (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: Although considering your insight, returning to the starting point where the passage remains on Alan Shepard's entry within the timelines looks set to be the way out, there are other legitimate concerns by the editors I've discussed with above that it would possibly confuse readers, or become a POV issue for readers living in Russia or other CIS countries. In this case I think it's also better to preserve other modifications made by TompaDompa and Ilenart626 namely the addition of more link citations from BBC and anywhere into the timeline boxes, and the so-called FAQ templates which according to PaulT2022, would be placed under Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. I'd be happy if you are able to give advice on this too.

Moreover, should serious disagreements still occur after this point then I am proposing a compromise counteroffer which will involve Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Project-level_forking forking of only summarized contents which are undisputably common facts (i.e. Sputnik, Alexei Leonov's first spacewalk, Apollo 11) into Simple English Misplaced Pages, as a last resort, while leaving out intricacies like Mars 1M and the Alan Shepard passage. This would be a best of both worlds as the Simple version sticks to commons facts while the ordinary English Misplaced Pages favors more to the raw presentation of information. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Gargarin made the first human spaceflight, the full trip. If he felt safer or had a reason to parachute down (I haven't read the full discussion) he carried the most important object which defined his mission as a human spaceflight: himself. Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it (although Albert II would have something to clear his throat about). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

True, and at the same time we need to avoid unnecessary WP:POVFUNNEL given that this is essentially a semantic debate rather than scientific question, and particularly the fact that the information distinguishing failed and successful Mars probe are allowed to uncontroversially stand. Notetags will be needed, as does those clarifying link references from BBC and otherwise that were added in the meantime. An ultimate last resort would be the forking of undisputedly common facts from those pages into Simple English Misplaced Pages. As a hypothetical and theoretical exercise I suppose that had Shepard beat Gagarin into space then we'd all be still arguing and discussing on John Glenn's "first orbital spaceflight without jumping out of spacecraft during landing" instead. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I totaly agree with TompaDmpa, “You are being disruptive by promoting WP:FRINGE views that you acknowledge are fringe views, by WP:Bludgeoning the discussion, and by refusing to WP:Drop the stick.” You need to move on from this discussion as NO ONE agrees with you. Ilenart626 (talk) 06:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Due to the unfortunate fact that some of us may be entering the WP:ASPERSIONS territory, alongside problems in my original computer network, it's better to do a temporary mutual withdrawal and take a break for a few days now.

Next, since this is a semantical debacle, I'd have to retract my earlier statements that agrees with Tompa's ad nauseum assertion regarding WP:FRINGE whether tacit or not, on the grounds it was a product of mischaracterization as, to quote a comment, "scientific question".

In the meantime an administrator from Simple English Misplaced Pages had been invited to comment on this discussion, in order to advice on the suitability of forking contents from Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race into Simple English Misplaced Pages. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

some of us may be entering the WP:ASPERSIONS territory – yes, you made accusations of gaslighting. Now stop moving the goalposts. It doesn't matter if the question is one of science or semantics—per the sources, the position that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE one. It makes no difference if that's because it's a WP:FRINGE interpretation of "(human) spaceflight" semantically or because of some scientific reason. It's still WP:FRINGE, per the sources. TompaDompa (talk) 17:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the accusations of gaslighting, it was made in the context of your misintepretation of procedural interim edits pursuant to WP:STATUSQUO and WP:PROCESSFIRST. For all the rest here, I would therefore share the page histories of Timeline of the Space Race, Timeline of space exploration and Space Age so that what were the "status quo ante bellum" would be clear enough in the air.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&offset=&limit=500&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Timeline_of_space_exploration&offset=&limit=500&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Space_Age&offset=&limit=500&action=history

Within the page histories, the facts will speak for themselves. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 18:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the page histories demonstrate that you wittingly restored WP:FRINGE material to article space to make a WP:POINT about WP:STATUSQUO. TompaDompa (talk) 18:45, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

In fact, the standard operating procedures for WP:STATUSQUO edits involves the insert an appropriate tag indicating the text is under discussion.

• 1
• 2

At this point, to pretend otherwise would be more akin to the POV railroading. This is getting near the red line of WP:CIVILITY so I'd refrain from making further comments for a few days unless absolutely necessary, and instead passively awaiting further comments and advices from other subject matter experts whose fields are relevant to the topic of the discussion; can you do that in the spirit of WP:MUTUAL?193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Standard operating procedure is by no means inserting WP:FRINGE material that has already been removed for being WP:FRINGE material, that everyone in the discussion agrees is WP:FRINGE material, so it can be accompanied by a maintenance tag stating that it is WP:FRINGE material. Standard operating procedure for WP:FRINGE material is to remove the WP:FRINGE material. You added material that you knew and agreed wasn't compliant with the non-negotiable WP:Core content policy WP:NPOV because it's WP:FRINGE and tried to justify it by invoking the essay WP:STATUSQUO. Why do you want to include the WP:FRINGE material, knowing that it is WP:FRINGE material? TompaDompa (talk) 19:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi,folks - just stepping in the middle here, following an invitation from 193.233.171.17 yesterday. I'm surprised to see so many bits spilled over this bit of esoterica. If the USSR had been vying for a cash prize and they didn't meet the conditions as verified by some outside observer, then they wouldn't have gotten it. Absent the cash prize and observer at the landing, and considering the FAI has since recognized Gagarin's flight as the first human spaceflight (because he did, after all, go to space and come back alive), Gagarin was the first. Any reader is free to research these matters more thoroughly and come to a different personal conclusion, but the conclusion throughout the corpus of literature on space exploration is unamibguous: the USSR was leading the space race. -- ke4roh (talk) 13:56, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

For the record the passage had actually stayed in the articles for six years or so, and in practice to arouse readers' interest in learning info from Misplaced Pages itself, including these kind of facts is also encouraged and even mandated, provided they are verifiable and given the proper weight, the latter again vulnerable to differing subjective judgement. This is not to mention that given the current international situation where readers are much more enthusiastic to challenge the veracity or extent of achievements made by Russia or USSR akin to lustration.

Summing these up, a number of middle way solutions have been proposed, such as the FAQ templates in the talk page of these articles and/or on relevant WikiProjects, alongside addition of footnotes. If (re-)inclusion of the passage is judged to be more preferable, then it certainly have to be rewritten so that it, to paraphrase a comment does not diminish Gagarin's flight in any way. Within the affected articles, a possible example would be the paring down the passage on Alan Shepard to just First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft. and leaving the rest into footnotes. I'd be thankful too if you can advise on how to proceed from here. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not the opinion of some editors that this is WP:FRINGE, it's what the sources say. You know this, because it has been explained to you repeatedly. It has also been repeatedly explained to you that if you want to include Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft, you have to demonstrate that it is not a WP:MINORASPECT by showing that it is WP:PROPORTIONAL to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject (i.e. the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race, respectively). TompaDompa (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft, the Praxis Manned Spaceflight Log 1961-2006 by Tim Furniss and David J. Shayler describes Freedom 7 as 1st flight to end with the crew aboard on page 25. It's near the section "The Quest for Space". 193.233.171.17 (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

A roughly-800-page tome giving this a single-sentence mention after having listed the same mission as "2nd manned space flight", "1st US manned space flight", "1st to make orientation manoueuvres", and "1st flight to splashdown in the sea" doesn't exactly scream that this is a significant aspect that should be included in our timelines. I'm sure you wouldn't think including that Lev Dyomin became the first grandfather in space with Soyuz 15 in our timelines would be WP:PROPORTIONAL based on this source alone, and that gets the same level of coverage by the source (if anything, slightly higher since it's the fourth milestone out of four listed rather than the fifth out of five). The same source credits Gagarin with "1st manned space flight", by the way. The source is also neither on history of space exploration or the history of the Space Race specifically but on the history of human spaceflight. Anyway, if we look at Appendix D: A Selected Timeline (which is way more similar in level of detail to our articles than the book as a whole is), it mentions of the respective missions that Yuri Gagarin becomes the first person fly into space and completes one orbit and Alan Shepard becomes the first American in space on a sub-orbital flight. TompaDompa (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, Shepard's first to land inside the spacecraft goes more to technical achievements while Dyumin's first grandfather in space goes more to "personal achievements", which the former would undoubtedly fit into the criteria in Timeline of the Space Race's lead sections specifically that of technical innovation. After all it's bound to be a sheer absurdity in the (aero)space field if pilots and by extension passengers cannot make their way home safely without jumping out of their craft in the midst of their landing to this day, though presently I have no strong feelings against including Dyumin's fact in those articles and/or elsewhere in Misplaced Pages since I actually spend more time reading than editing. Regarding that the source is also neither on history of space exploration or the history of the Space Race specifically but on the history of human spaceflight, concurrently they are interwoven or overlapping to each other as far as I can see regarding the standard perception of those fields. NASA has this stating Unlike the early U.S. human spaceflight programs, Gagarin did not land inside of capsule. Instead, he ejected from the spacecraft and landed by parachute. Different from Praxis logs and just like most other citations, they reported on the fact that Gagarin did not remain inside the spacecraft, although all it takes to reach to the conclusion as explicitly stated by Praxis is an immediate inference probably in the veins of disjunctive syllogism. Taking account of the logical aspects, I'd say that they meets the bar for "other prominent definitions".

On the footnotes, for the rest who're uninitiated, I start to get the feeling that this is reminiscent of those record disputes or discrepancies in Olympic sports so I went to check and found that in All-time Olympic Games medal table, there are Disputed participation notes near the bottom; the "some sources" wordings could be useful in this context as suggested earlier to cover that bit of info regarding the discrepancy of the Vostok 1 landing. The footnote methodology would also be useful if future disputes or discrepancies arise, in the ongoing advent of space exploration. After all despite our feelings and whatever is written, the Space Race sections of those timelines are bound to be looked as a scoreboard for most readers, given the obvious context of that era. Let's see what the experts have to say at this point; the reason why I invited Ke4roh and others to this discussion is due in part of Justin's surprising absence in here where significant inputs and advices from subject matter experts are needed in order to reach an amicable resolution; in this case WP:ALLARGUMENTS apply. I regret that I haven't thought about WP:RFC earlier, though it's too late by now. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 11:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

To my complete surprise, the present FAI Sporting Code on Section 8 (spaceflight) contains the following at 2.15:

UNCOMPLETED FLIGHT

A flight is deemed to be uncompleted if:

a) an accident occurs during the flight resulting in the death of any member of the crew within 48 hours or,

b) any member of the crew definitively leaves the spaceship during the flight.

Note: In the case of space stations which qualify as spaceships under 2.16 below, 2.15 (b) above shall not apply.

At this point it is definitely in the "other prominent definitions" territory. I rest my case for now.193.233.171.17 (talk) 13:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough about Dyomin, but I could have just as well used "1st in-flight public TV" from Vostok 3 and 4 as my example. And none of this changes the fact that Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft is per the sources a WP:MINORASPECT. Your assertions about "other prominent definitions" is your personal opinion (and WP:Original research, to boot). Your comparison with record disputes or discrepancies in Olympic sports misses the mark because according to the sources, there is no controversy about Gagarin making the first human spaceflight. You even acknowledged yourself that there is no controversy. Per the sources, your position is a WP:FRINGE view. You're entitled to your opinion, but Misplaced Pages is not in the business of promoting WP:FRINGE views. So I'll ask you this outright, and I expect an answer: why are you promoting WP:FRINGE views on Misplaced Pages? TompaDompa (talk) 13:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

In light of discovery of the wording in the present FAI definition, the matter then becomes that Gagarin and Shepard did indeed made spaceflight, except the former is "uncompleted spaceflight" while the latter is "completed spaceflight". Had FAI sporting codes remained textually same from the 1960s until now, the former wouldn't be called a "spaceflight" at all. Ultimately the Tech Republic article had the following:

Thus, he did not “legally” complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body. For years, the Soviet Union hid this information from the world at large, omitting the pilot-egress portion of the Vostok flight plan and contending that Gagarin returned to Earth in his craft, therefore qualifying for FAI records and avoiding any political naysaying or second-guessing by Western powers looking to discredit Gagarin’s achievements. A similar space flight soon validated the rationale behind this subterfuge. On May 5, 1961—less than a month after Gagarin’s flight—U.S. astronaut Alan Shepard journeyed into and returned from outer space without leaving his Freedom 7 capsule (which could land safely in part because of its ability to splash down over the ocean). The Soviet Union’s deception went undiscovered for decades, well after others had surpassed both Gagarin’s and Shepard’s FAI records.

With that passage and combining with the present FAI sporting code and all the sources put in here so far, it goes right into one of the WP:OR exemptions, specifically that SYNTH is not the word "thus". Regarding my earlier agreement with your statement on WP:FRINGE, I had since retracted it after it was made clear that this was a semantical debacle. I'm not going, and have no obligation to answer regarding your personally-pointed question on WP:FRINGE under the grounds that it is very likely a loaded question which can only make heated discussions to end up badly, be it on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. Instead, we should do a WP:MUTUAL and pass the stage once more to subject matter experts.193.233.171.17 (talk) 14:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Gagarin and Shepard did indeed made spaceflight, except the former is "uncompleted spaceflight" is WP:Original research, specifically WP:SYNTH. It's a textbook example: you combined different sources to arrive at a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. TechRepublic—"an online trade publication and social community for IT professionals, providing advice on best practices and tools for the needs of IT decision" per our article on them—is hardly the most WP:Reliable source for what the mainstream view is on which the first human spaceflight was. And even then, they felt the need to qualify it with "legally" ("scare quotes" in original). The National Air and Space Museum however says: The conclusion of the delegates was to rework the parameters of human spaceflight to recognize that the great technological accomplishment of spaceflight was the launch, orbiting and safe return of the human, not the manner in which he or she landed. Gagarin and Titov's records remained on the FAI books. and as is true with any sports organization, the FAI reserved the right to reexamine and reinterpret its rules in light of new knowledge and circumstances. Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight. The FAI itself says the FAI duly amended the rules to encompass this new form of aviation and so the awards were ratified. The book Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo (a source you brought up—and quote mined, as noted by PaulT2022) says Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight. And the Seeker article (not exactly a great source on this, but again one you brought up and quoted selectively) says the FAI held a special meeting of delegates to reexamine Titov's records and reconsider Gagarin's. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed. That Gagarin had orbited the Earth was the real achievement, and both his and Titov's records remain in the FAI's books. and After the decision to keep Gagarin's record intact, the early Vostok landing system went from a controversial issue to a historical oddity of the transition from flight in aircraft to spaceflight in capsules. You do understand that almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight means that the notion that it wasn't is a WP:FRINGE view, right? Your whole "it's about semantics" argument is a complete red herring. It doesn't matter if you're promoting a WP:FRINGE interpretation of events or a WP:FRINGE interpretation of words—it's still WP:FRINGE. So answer the question: why are you so insistent on including this? TompaDompa (talk) 15:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I actually missed more of SYNTH exceptions, namely that SYNTH is not a rigid rule, SYNTH is not obvious II saying that If something is obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources that are supposed to support it, then it's not SYNTH. An example of a perfectly valid citation is given in the guideline on citations, at WP:Bundling: "The sun is pretty big, but the moon is not so big." The bundled citation uses one source for the size of the sun, and another for the size of the moon. Neither says that the sun is bigger than the moon, but the article is making that comparison. Given the two sources, the conclusion is obvious. So a typical reader can use the sources to check the accuracy of the comparison, and SYNTH is not just any synthesis which is significant because in 2004, Jimbo Wales actually contrasted synthesis with original research: "In many cases, the distinction between original research and synthesis of published work will require thoughtful editorial judgment." It seems clear that "synthesis of published work" was assumed to be part of the legitimate role of Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, considering the wording of the 2.15 of present FAI sporting code, calling Vostok 1 as an "uncompleted flight" doesn't necessarily makes it not a spaceflight; it's simply a precisionist categorization based on the nature of the flight which is a little bit like how suborbital and orbital flights are distinguished. Again and sadly, that is also vulnerable to the eyes of the beholders as well. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 16:30, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Again with the terrible WP:WikiLawyering. You are expressing your opinion that, given this definition of "uncompleted spaceflight", that's what Gagarin did. Surely you see that you're doing the same thing as the hypothetical editor in the canonical "plagiarism" example of WP:SYNTH (The second paragraph is original research because it expresses a Misplaced Pages editor's opinion that, given the Harvard manual's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it.)? Anyway, answer the question: why are you so insistent on including this? TompaDompa (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Guess what? We have been reinventing a whole wheel without knowing it. A paragon of virtue for @Randy Kryn:'s Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it can be found in Timeline of space travel by nationality where a footnote stated:

Under Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules, the Vostok missions are not deemed true spaceflights, as cosmonauts did not land with the spacecraft (they ejected from the spacecraft and landed separately). The first Soviet mission that did fulfill this requirement was Voskhod 1. ("FAI Astronautic Records Commission – Sporting Code Section 8" (PDF). Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2006-05-26. Retrieved 2006-04-09.) However, despite this issue, the FAI does recognize Yuri Gagarin as the first person to complete a spaceflight.

The page history indicated a silent yet far more longstanding consensus, than the passage of Alan Shepard as stated above. In order to be lucid about the extent of "status quo" over there, here are a few links:

• 2008
• 2009
• 2010
• 2011
• 2012
• 2013
• 2014
• 2015
• 2016
• 2017
• 2018
• 2019
• 2020
• 2021

What if, we settle on that instead and hence make the remaining passage into only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft? @JustinTime55: @PaulT2022: @Randy Kryn: what's your take on this? 193.233.171.17 (talk) 18:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't this logic imply that Apollo 11 article needs to be amended to state that "although FAI later recognised the Apoolo 11 flight records, Apollo 11 mission isn't deemed a true spaceflight according to FAI requirements, as Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin exited the spacecraft, failing to complete flight to the Moon by FAI regulations" as well?

Sarcasm aside, my position is still the same: as FAI never recognised who was the first person to complete a spaceflight (or fly to the Moon for that matter), a WP:RS should be provided that would establish how FAI rules relevant to such determination, outside of their intended scope for establishing FAI-recognised records. (Where the 'leaving the ship' rule is consistently ignored by FAI both for Vostok 1 and Apollo 1.) I believe no sources (apart from a lengthy synth from FAI rule book) surfaced since this was discussed last time. PaulT2022 (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Per the 2.13 of present FAI Sporting Code, Apollo 11 would qualify as Temporary halts at non-manned space stations or places other than the planet Earth, either with the purpose of refurbishing the spacecraft or making repairs, are not considered termination of flight as long as all work is performed by the original crew, the same original crew resumes the mission, and no other human beings are involved. Regarding Shepard's First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft alone, it is backed up by Praxis Manned Spaceflight Log 1961-2006 by Tim Furniss and David J. Shayler, which describes Freedom 7 as 1st flight to end with the crew aboard on page 25, near the section "The Quest for Space". 193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

And as noted above, Shepard landing inside the spacecraft gets a single-sentence mention in a roughly-800-page tome—the same amount of weight as Vostok 3 and 4 having the "1st in-flight public TV" gets—and is not mentioned in the "Selected Timeline" presented in Appendix D. It is, per the sources, a WP:MINORASPECT. Why is it so important for you to include this? TompaDompa (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The Furniss and Shayler quote above doesn't mention anything about FAI rules or that Gagarin's spaceflight wasn't a spaceflight by some important definition. There's a massive gap between the proposed edit(s) and WP:RS, which is proposed to be filled with a massive amount of editor's opinion. PaulT2022 (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

At this point the proposed edits can into just "First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft" alone on Alan Shepard's section within the timelines backed up by the Praxis citation, while putting a footnote identical to that was on Timeline of space travel by nationality on Yuri Gagarin's section before Tompa removed it, although for the latter a minor rewording is certainly in order. I suspect that by now, a sitewide WP:RFC is the only way in order to garner exact consensus from editors and readers on this and reach an amicable closure. By that stage I pledge to be respectful of the RFC outcome though. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The RFC is currently being proposed at here.05:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

This is plain WP:I didn't hear that behaviour. The Shepard stuff violates WP:MINORASPECTS and the Gagarin stuff violates WP:FRINGE/WP:Original research, as has been repeatedly explained to you. You still haven't answered my question: why are you pushing so hard to include this information? TompaDompa (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, proposing a sitewide WP:RFC just seems like WP:Forum shopping to me. You started at Talk:Space Race, where all other editors agree your edits were poor as CMD put it, then moved here (despite saying that you wouldn't, as Andyjsmith noted) where you have again been told by multiple editors that your suggestions violate Misplaced Pages's WP:Core content policies, and now you're suggesting to take it a step further? TompaDompa (talk) 20:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

It is good that you alert us to the long-standing flagrant WP:Original research at the Timeline of space travel by nationality article so it can be removed. This is again a clear example of expressing a Misplaced Pages editor's opinion that, given the FAI rules, the Vostok missions were not "true spaceflights" (never mind that the FAI specifically amended their rules to address this as they considered this aspect to be outdated/irrelevant when it came to spaceflight) just as in the canonical "plagiarism" example of WP:SYNTH. And again: per the sources, Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft is a WP:MINORASPECT that it would be undue to mention in these articles. Why are you so dead set on including this? TompaDompa (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Rather than request for comment, would suggest a WP:CLOSE of this discussion would be more appropriate. As per WP:WHENCLOSE I believe this discussion has reached the level where "When further contributions are unlikely to be helpful: ...when further responses are likely to result in little more than wasting everyone's time by repeating the same widely held view, then it should be closed sooner rather than later.".

I believe a simple summary of this discussion is 193.233.171.17 is advocating changes that the majority of Editors consider are WP:MINORASPECTS, WP:FRINGE and lately WP:Original research and none of the changes should be included. Thoughts?

Pinging all involved Editors for their input @TompaDompa: @PaulT2022: @North8000: @Randy Kryn: @Ke4roh: Ilenart626 (talk)

In fact, the discussion has also previously headed toward a "protracted stability" too before North's and Randy's comments. To play a bit of devil's advocate, without RFC there is still the loose end likely in form of close challenges, such as the issues unrepresentative consensus. But with RFC, the rationale of the loose ends would be rendered moot.193.233.171.17 (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I initially was leaning towards WP:FRINGE based on a false claim by 193.233.171.17 that FAI recognised that Gagarin was first in space. After verifying this in contemporaneous NYT reporting and primary FAI publications, it became clear that FAI had nothing to do with recognising Gagarin's primacy in space. I believe only two sources were provided that could possibly be used to support the proposed edit without synthesis, one being a children's book written by a non-expert, making the edit unsourced per WP:REDFLAG due to statements about FAI involvement that contradict with coverage in NYT/FAI.

I support the concern raised by 193.233.171.17 about readers possibly coming to Misplaced Pages after hearing conspiracy theories and not understanding why it claims that Gagarin was first in space; I believe a consensus was reached in this discussion to resolve this by including a reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained and my understanding is that this was done.

Support close. PaulT2022 (talk) 07:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not just the mere confusion about the claims; in the event of omission readers would ask why Misplaced Pages neglects to cover it and give rise to the feelings of systematic bias by omission. Regarding reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained, there are BBC sources in other languages like this which are essentially the expanded version of the original report; they actually touched it for a bit before ending with well rounded closure saying that he's ultimately the first man in space or so. To WP:IAR a bit and assuming implicit agreement I gonna put the BBC article alongside the sources at those pages, due in part of the preparing of all possibilities with regards to the looming RFC. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 11:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that JustinTime55 has reverted your addition on Space race on the basis of WP:Citation overkill and I have reverted your additions to Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race as their is no consensus for this addition. Do you really believe that adding this non-English citation which 99% of English Wiki reader cannot read helps in any way? Ilenart626 (talk)

Per WP:NOENG, citations to foreign language reliable sources are allowed. Template:Request quotation can be used to verify the material should dispute arise. This is getting into the WP:JDLI territory considering your remarks of Do you really believe that adding this non-English citation which 99% of English Wiki reader cannot read helps in any way?.193.233.171.17 (talk) 13:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Enough already. The material was already properly sourced meaning the addition was unnecessary, and the addition itself was a transparent attempt to Trojan horse your POV into the articles. If people want to read about the details of Vostok 1 and Yuri Gagarin, they can read those articles. Either come right out and state for the record why you want to include this in the timeline articles or WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa (talk) 13:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I'm neutral on this, I was just trying to help. North8000 (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Following the brief and informal consultations and feedbacks from a particular subject matter expert on spaceflight topics who's also a de-facto lead editor in these fields within Misplaced Pages, it is learned that the following facts are present in historical consensus:

• Gagarin is acknowledged as first human in space and in orbit; as the FAI decided, it's a trivial technicality he didn't land in the craft.
• Shepard is the first American in space; also first to control his spacecraft and land in it (but no cigar as far as "first in space" goes).

Pursuant to the feedback which I hope will be a tiebreaker and thus avert WP:RFC and further WP:DRAMA; the former having the side effect of wasting editors' time, it should be okay to pare the passage at Alan Shepard's in the aforementioned timeline articles down to First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft, or simply smerge with First human-piloted space flight to become first to control his spacecraft and land in it though the latter could fail relevant style guide since the wording is not "professional" enough.

With regards to Yuri Gagarin and again in the pages discussed here, taking account of the suggestions from @Randy Kryn: putting a so-called "asterisk on the entry" in the form of Template:NoteTag with a near carbon copy from Gagarin's biographical article stating the following should be good to go:

Gagarin ejected from the capsule during landing. Due to this there were concerns the spaceflight would not be recognized by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), the world governing body for setting standards and keeping records in the field, which at the time required that the pilot land with the craft. Gagarin's spaceflight records were nonetheless certified and reaffirmed by the FAI, which revised its rules, and acknowledged that the crucial steps of the safe launch, orbit, and return of the pilot had been accomplished. Gagarin is internationally recognised as the first human in space and first to orbit the Earth.

As this looks to be a last turn before RFC is inevitable, everyone here is invited to ponder about this.193.233.171.17 (talk) 12:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

An RfC is in no way inevitable. You can always just WP:Drop the stick. Ilenart626 suggested closing this discussion on the grounds that further discussion is unlikely to be productive. PaulT2022 supported this suggestion. You yourself acknowledged that an RfC would be wasting editors' time. I agree that further discussion on this—here or elsewhere—is unlikely to be productive. This is the second venue (after Talk:Space Race) that has resoundly rejected your suggestions. Closing this discussion seems reasonable considering that you do not appear to be willing to just disengage. I would view you opening any new discussions on this, such as the RfC you mention, as overt WP:Forum shopping (as mentioned at WT:RFC). TompaDompa (talk) 12:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

To digress a bit the central topic of the discussion had itself moved as time goes; the original Talk:Space Race thread was regarding perceived NPOV problems in Space Race, such as The Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine in the "See also" section, which should just be in namesake satellite page as it's a bit out of scope in this article, appears to be something that "spikes the football" for Russia, in spite of original editor's intentions when adding the link to here which was long since fixed, and the omission of GALCIT which is actually a mere section below this discussion about Gagarin.193.233.171.17 (talk) 13:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Keep note that there isn't really a WP:SNOWBALL consensus at the moment to prematurely hard close this discussion on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained on Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race. 204.15.72.92 other changes were considered deficient by all other Editors and should not be included in any articles:

• IMO this isn't a scientific question, it is a question on the mere definition of a mere word in the English language "spaceflight" and other synonyms. In most areas it goes by the common meaning of the term and IMO what Yuri did is included within that. But the article can and should cover "who was first" under other prominent definitions. North8000 (talk) 12:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
• Gargarin made the first human spaceflight, the full trip. If he felt safer or had a reason to parachute down (I haven't read the full discussion) he carried the most important object which defined his mission as a human spaceflight: himself. Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it (although Albert II would have something to clear his throat about). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

193.233.171.17 (talk) 13:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: Quotation text edited to reflect a posted comment. The old version cited a draft comment.193.233.171.17 (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The details of Gagarin's spaceflight can be read, for those who are interested in reading about them, at Yuri Gagarin and Vostok 1. That should be satisfactory to you. Your suggestions about the timeline articles have been resoundly rejected as incompatible with WP:Core content policies. TompaDompa (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that three Editors involved in this discussion have all confirmed that they believe the discussion should be closed. Suggest that it should be closed on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained on Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race. 204.15.72.92 other changes were considered deficient by all other Editors and should not be included in any articles.

I see that 204.15.72.92 has requested JustinTime55 further input to this discussion on his Talk page. Recommend that we leave the discussion open for another 24 hours and, if after that time their is no further useful input, that we request closure. Ilenart626 (talk) 13:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my concerns about reader's animosity towards perceived pro-Russia slants in general within the current international context are vindicated to a degree as of this moment. But nevermind; in the meantime an ad-hoc request had been delivered to the aforementioned subject matter expert requesting feedback and/or assessment of the "last-minute solution", which in this very context will serve as the final say. With that in mind, it is hoped that this can be resolved in 24 hours particularly given that this discussion has been going non-stop for almost two weeks give or take. After all to be fair we, including myself and yourselves aren't spotless and blameless either because ultimately it seems like way too much WP:Wikidrama being made of a dispute which should be easily resolvable by growing the hell up and presenting the verifiable mainstream facts in a NPOV way. This is one thing that is absolutely umambigous. Once this issue is amicably resolved, I hope ya'll have the best of all lucks. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, is that it—you think including this is necessary to combat a perceived pro-Russian slant in the articles? TompaDompa (talk) 14:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

And let's be clear here: the only reason this has dragged on for two weeks is that you have refused to take no for an answer. TompaDompa (talk) 16:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, it's me again. Going into the realms of meta stuff which will be temporarily outside the topic of this discussion, there were cases like that before where the project decided to accede to "reader feelings" or so on, such as the renaming of Kiev to Kyiv; there's even an article specifically on the impacts of the war to Misplaced Pages editing as a whole. Maintaining project stability is all that matters for Misplaced Pages while its administrative processes are actually more akin authoritarian systems; there is even WP:CONEXCEPT stating that Misplaced Pages can hypothetically impose measures to override some standard consensuses and do things like prohibiting "whitewashing of Russian imperialism" if let's say it determined that it may harm project stability in the long run. While it hasn't obviously happened yet, to the best of my understanding Russia's action against Misplaced Pages might be a final straw to trigger a kind of Streisand effect and make the editing community to be fervent to check, minimise and/or fix those so-called pro-Russian slants in every field, be it polar expedition topics, history, and so on. In other words, not just this one. While outright disruptive actions such as vandalism would still be forbidden, legit or gray case actions like addition of verifiable contents to put a nuance (like this case) or removal of unsourced/unsubstantiated pufferies to that end will be the way and the norm.

Going back to this topic, yes I had to switch networks again since the previous two are open anonymising networks, thus vulnerable to misuse by vandals followed by blocks on the infrastructures. Nonetheless at this point I'd take it as a sign and after re-reading Justin's initial comments I think for the moment if the footnotes can be dropped leaving only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft or smerge to become something like first to control his spacecraft and land in it on the aforementioned affected pages, and we can agree on it in principle, then we can skip waiting for Justin and proceed to a swift closure. 194.145.237.79 (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The current geopolitical situation with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is neither here nor there. Misplaced Pages is not a place to WP:Right great wrongs.It's great that you finally agree that the Gagarin stuff should not be included. I trust that you will not bring it up again. Nevertheless, Shepard landing (or more technically accurately splashing down) inside the spacecraft is per the sources a WP:MINORASPECT whose inclusion in these articles would be undue. TompaDompa (talk) 21:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@TompaDompa: You're welcome. Pursuant to Blueboar's advice, this will be my last comment ever on this thread and I'd head out after this. I trust ya'll will abide that as well.

Ultimately I'd have to go back thinking about how to recover from Chronic Covid Syndrome, which due to me not getting Paxlovid sooner is not going to be easy, but is going to be hard.

Godspeed.

194.145.237.79 (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to add, 24 hours is ideal, but the maximum should be until this Sunday to account for his quite-frequent breaks. If he finally weighs in and made the final call, I pledge to accept the judgement no matter what it is; you have my word. Godspeed.193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

193.233.171.17 was wondering where you obtained the following text you posted above: I see that three Editors involved in this discussion have all confirmed that the discussion should be closed on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained: as its funny that it is identical to this text I was in the process of drafting in my Sandbox. However I now see that you now admitt above that you were reading my sandbox before you posted your comments. Do you do that often to try and get advantage in discussions? Ilenart626 (talk)

Looking at the latest proposals from anom I do not see anything useful or worth discussing further. Have requested closure at ], may take a few days depending on availability of an uninvolved Editor. Ilenart626 (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

GALCIT and Pioneer lunar probes

As mentioned, the "Origins" section in Space Race gives more coverage to Soviet rocket development whereas American ones like Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT were left out, the latter makes the statement This left the United States as the only one of the major three World War II powers not to have its own rocket program, until Von Braun and his engineers were expatriated in 1945. inaccurate. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 21:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I have now proceeded to make this edit on the article reflecting the existence of such program to maintain NPOV. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 22:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Passages regarding the Pioneer program had been expanded as well. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. Siddiqi 2000, p. 281 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSiddiqi2000 (help)
2. Angelo 2014, p. 24 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAngelo2014 (help)
3. Jenks 2011, p. 112 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFJenks2011 (help)
4. Lewis, Cathleen (12 April 2010). "Why Yuri Gagarin remains the first man in space, even though he did not land inside his spacecraft". National Air and Space Museum. Archived from the original on 18 June 2019. Retrieved 12 June 2019.

Unfortunately they all had been reverted by User:Ilenart626 under the spurious reasons of being unsourced, despite the fact that the passage pre-edit regarding the lunar probes has no sources either since it was stating the obvious.

The Pioneer program had one successful lunar flyby, Pioneer 4 in March 1959. The Surveyor program had five successful soft landings out of seven attempts from 1966 to 1968. The Lunar Orbiter program had five successes out of five attempts in 1966–1967.

204.15.72.92 (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you review Misplaced Pages:Verifiability Ilenart626 (talk)

That's a vague answer which is not helpful. Where exactly the problems are at? The proposed passages are pretty much a summary of articles such as Pioneer program, while Misplaced Pages:When_to_cite#When_a_source_may_not_be_needed applies in this case and that of GALCIT.204.15.72.92 (talk) 09:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I see you have quoted an essay where Verifiablity is a Policy, suggest you look up the difference. For your proposed changes you need to provide reliable, published sources to ensure that you are not making it up.  In other words, find a source that supports your assertion in bold at the end of this statement "The United States as the only one of the major three World War II powers not to have its own rocket program until Von Braun and his engineers were expatriated in 1945,  'although civilian programs such as GALCIT (the precursor of Jet Propulsion Laboratory) existed”. Ilenart626 (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The details of the early Pioneer program probes are included in the following citations:

• https://web.archive.org/web/20090131181021/http://msl.jpl.nasa.gov/QuickLooks/pioneer0QL.html (archive of http://msl.jpl.nasa.gov/QuickLooks/pioneer0QL.html)
• Hess, Wilmot (1968). The Radiation Belt and Magnetosphere.

Please read Misplaced Pages:When_to_cite#When_a_source_may_not_be_needed again, specifically Subject-specific common knowledge: Material that someone familiar with a topic, including laypersons, recognizes as true. Example (from Processor): "In a computer, the processor is the component that executes instructions. To pretend otherwise would be more akin to a veiled WP:JDLI.204.15.72.92 (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The proposed passages regarding lunar probes has been restored, this time with citations. I'll be awaiting comments regarding GALCIT on whether although civilian programs such as GALCIT (the precursor of Jet Propulsion Laboratory) existed qualifies WP:BLUESKY to see how it goes. 204.15.72.92 (talk) 21:02, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Same editor with different IP here. For now in the event of thread closure, the topic regarding the inclusion of GALCIT can be moved back to Space Race talkspace or to WikiProject Spaceflight to slowly figure it all out.194.145.237.79 (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Take it back to Space race

At this point, everyone here at this noticeboard is aware that there are multiple NPOV disputes at the Space race article. You don’t need to raise every single one of them here. Also, continuing to argue between the same three or four editors is becoming disruptive. Step back, and give others a chance to think about what you have already said repeatedly. Blueboar (talk) 21:52, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Evaluation of rationales, possibly emblematic of common NPOV issues / mechanisms of POV at article

IMO one of the main NPOV forms and POV methods at articles is using wiki rules and guidelines to promulgate a differential standard of what gets into an article and what doesn't. Either tending to keep favorable and mainstream material out and negative material in or vice versa depending on the topic of the article. Somethings the smaller scale cases are more useful because they are simpler without numerous other complicating factors and I think that this is one of those. My concern about the outcome is secondary.

At the Foundation for Economic Education (which is described as a conservative libertarian think tank) article "Editor #1" added this text: "In 2018, the organization hosted its annual Foundation for Economic Education Conference (FEECon) in Atlanta, Georgia, gathering more than 1,000 attendees." and provided two sources for the material. One was a 800+ word article ( https://semo.edu/news/2018/06/eight-students-travel-to-atlanta-for-annual-foundation-for-economic-education-conference-feecon/ ) on the Southeast Missouri State University web site covering the conference and the participation of some of their students in it. The second was a short article in the Atlanta Downtown website ( https://www.atlantadowntown.com/do/feecon-2019 )briefly describing the event. Editor #2 took it out, editor #3 (me) put it back in, and editor #2 took it out again. The rationales for removal were/are:

1. That the sentence s promotional
2. That the sentence is WP:Undue
3. That the sources are "extremely poor". (IMO they are sufficient to establish the veracity / verifiability of that "sky is blue" sentence.) IMO this is an important one to analyze. Presumably it is an invoking of WP:ver in tandem with their assessment that the sources are not suitable, thus giving it the same treatment under WP:Ver as not having any source provided on challenged material.
4. That per WP:ONUS it requires affirmative consensus for inclusion. IMO this one is also worth reviewing in detail. With two editors already seeking to include it and one editor seeking to exclude it, presumably they meant that it would need to go through an additional process and one which would arrive at a consensus for inclusion. By requiring an additional process, (including editors devoting their available wiki-time to the effort) and consensus outcome (which is a sort of supermajority of arguments and opinions or an outcome heavily in favor for inclusion) this sets a two stage higher bar for inclusion.
5. That there in essence a requirement of showing that it was an important event, e.g. "mainstream RS coverage" of notable speakers and participants in order to include the sentence.

The actual points as made are in the edit summaries and at Foundation for Economic Education#NPOV Issues

For me the outcome is secondary but I would request a review of the 5 rationales whether any or all of them are grounds for exclusion at this point. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• I think #2 (UNDUE) might be a valid complaint. The organization has been in existence since the late 1940s, and I would assume that they have held an annual conference every year since their founding. So, what makes this particular conference worth highlighting? Was this the first time attendance broke 1000? If so, is that really noteworthy? Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• The 2<->5 + 4 is a favored argument. The sources are not "mainstream" but I think they need not be for this purpose. Have the annual conferences been reported for other years as well? Is it the >1000 attendees that made it worthy for 2018? Idk anything about this org but if I was editing there, I might be tempted to put it back in possibly with slightly different wording depending on the answer to the question I just posed. Selfstudier (talk) 12:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• That's a useful test case, as you say, but I don't think it shows any need to modify any Misplaced Pages policies such as WP:PROMO, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, or WP:ONUS. In response to your 5 questions:

1. The end of the sentence does seem promotional, because it suggests in wikivoice that the organization was very successful in attracting public interest in its annual conference.

2. The sentence would not be undue if there's evidence from disinterested RS (not the two sources given) that the meeting was notable in that it attracted a surprisingly high attendance.

3. The sentence is not in the "sky is blue" category because the figure of "more than 1,000 attendees" was most likely based on an estimate by the organizers or other promoters of the event, and crowd estimates by organizers are often inflated.

4. As you write, the standard procedure in WP:ONUS and WP:BRD when an editor reverts recently added text is to open a discussion on the article's talk-page. If the article is fairly obscure without many editors watching it, as in this case, then announcements on noticeboards or wikiproject pages might attract broader participation. It should not be enough just to have one editor (editor #3) who's watching the page and agrees with the added text. Often the overwhelming majority of editors who edit or watchlist an article about an organization are supporters of the organization and agree with its advocacy role.

5. I don't see why the RS needs to cover notable speakers and participants if the point of the sentence is that attendance was unusually high, not that the participants or speakers were notable people. If, for example, the NY Times ran an article citing high attendance at FEECon as an indication of the popularity of economic viewpoints that were formerly considered to be somewhat fringe (such as opposing social security and minimum wages), then the sentence would be amply supported and not undue. NightHeron (talk) 12:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• @North8000 My personal overview
  • A) Mainly issue seems to be related to WP:Due or not
  • B) Your first paragraph: I do agree. IMHO besides policies Wikipedians need to develop analytical guiding tools or reference points.
  • C) "Editor #1" seems 4 plus years experience so less chance of COI so I consider it most likely goodfaith edit unless some one can prove otherwise.
  • 1) If we see over all paragraph about organizational activities it sounds like natural addition and not promotional
  • 2) If it passes other criteria, does not seem to be undue. I wish we have better criteria or tools for regular evaluation of such issues
  • 3) The second source is of partial verification-al value to say an event was planned but insufficient on it's own; The first source is almost complete only what remains is of confirmation editorial evaluation policy. 'An event was organized' is easy to accept the first source in good faith; to confirm 1,000 attendees attended needs confirmation of editorial monitoring mechanism or one more secondary source to confirm the same.
  • 4) There is more to write about WP:ONUS. WP:ONUS seems like setting unnecessary higher bar for inclusion. a) Many content inclusion policies are originated from sciences, religion and politics related content conflict raising bar for inclusion unnecessary higher for other articles, endures systemic biases against small communities not having control over media and publishing. b) In humanities articles what Misplaced Pages should have had is color coding to reference numbers according to reliability scale of the references c) Stonewalling is an easy and enjoyable one way job sans due responsibilities, What Misplaced Pages lacks is policy asking ONUS asking editors to have added substantial content in previous three months (One does not understand other's pain properly without going through similar situation).
  • Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:56, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I was thinking the same thing about the "1,000" number but it was not specifically brought up and so I didn't bring it up here. Also FYI there is a substantial discussion going on about wp:onus including that if taken as stand alone and literally it conflicts with another policy. North8000 (talk) 13:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• Opt 2 - All that needs to be said is that they host an annual conference, and if it's always in the same month & location, provide that info. If the conference itself fails N, there's no need to elaborate or include each annual conference. Atsme 💬 📧 22:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• I can see issues with some of the points above even though I think removal might be the correct choice overall.

A) Don't agree. It seems reasonably factual.

B) Agree. It may be relevant to say they have a yearly conference but it's not clear why that one conference would be highlighted.

C) They are sufficient for the claims in question in terms of establishing the facts, less so the weight.

D) True but that is a procedural issue rather than a factual one. I do generally feel that 2 for/1 against new content = leave it out but only after both sides have argued their case. If only the for side has argued their case then I think we can presume the against side was persuaded. (example: Text added. Text removed with claim source doesn't support quote. Text restored with information supporting that source does support quote.)

E) Disagree. The problem is "mainstream" won't cover everything. When we are covering lesser topics and aspects that aren't particularly controversial we don't have to rely on mainstream sources. Almost no sources I would cite for, say, the Formula Ford article would be "mainstream".

Springee (talk) 11:39, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

It seems that 1, 2, 4 and 5 are basically about DUE. Undue positive news is promotional, editors should not agree to its inclusion and major media will not mention it. The types of sources however are RS, and are used frequently for articles of local significance. When an editor provides five reasons for exclusion, especially when one is very questionable, it can lead to excessive discussion. And yes, I think mentioning the meeting is undue. TFD (talk) 21:51, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

In this case it was only discussed on the artilcle talk by the solitary Mr. North. In general, it's pretty hard to rebut 5 for 5. SPECIFICO talk 22:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! North8000 (talk) 12:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

And thank you, too, for using established processes instead of endless talk-page rehashing. I hope this will clarify the issue for you in related AP content issues, should they arise. SPECIFICO talk 15:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Kyle Rittenhouse article and weight

I would like to get some eyes on the recently created Kyle Rittenhous BLP. I'm concerned this article has a number of issues and may be not much more than a FORK from the original Kenosha unrest shooting (here after KUS) article. The issues start in the opening sentence where Rittenhouse is described as a "conservative celebrity". Most of the sources used to support that claim don't actually support it. Typically they will say something like his trial was a cause celebre or he was a celebrity among some "far-right" or "militia" groups. Most sources discussing Rittenhouse don't mention anything about celebrity in any form. Thus there is a NPOV question, how many sources need to make a claim before it can be the opening claim in a BLP. I'm also concerned that, based on the content of the article, Rittenhouse's media appearances etc are given far more weight vs his actions related to the shootings and the trial. I think the best action here would be an AfD with a merger of a reduced versions of some content back into the KUS article as some level of aftermath. The rest of the content seems more trivia than substance. Thanks. Springee (talk) 02:51, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I looked at it and the sources to that lede sentence look A-OK to me. I think the best way to provide proper weight would be to put 2-3 more sentences about the shootings/trial in the lede, not removing anything. It's not like it's a very long lede. GordonGlottal (talk) 03:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I reviewed the sources and commented on their issues here and in a few other spots. Almost none support the specific claim and as phrased the sentence suggests that Rittenhouse is primarily known as a type of celebrity rather than for shooting people. Springee (talk) 03:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, @Springee, the first sentence of the article that calls him a celebrity also mentions his trial and him shooting three people. It would be disingenuous if the article said the subject was a celebrity without any description of why. Instead, the sentence continues and describes how he initially achieved his celebrity status. And when you say "Almost none support the specific claim", there are eight RS in the cite bundle specifically describing him as a celebrity. --Kbabej (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Springee Notify the other editors involved in that discussion that you have brought it here please. Template is at the top of this page.GordonGlottal (talk) 03:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

As the editor who created the article, I'm perhaps biased but thought I'd throw my two cents in. Many, many RS refer to the subject as a "celebrity" or a very close variation thereof. It isn't one or two blogs or YouTube reactions; it's green-level RS at RSP, including: The Guardian, NBC (x2), the Boston Globe, the Washington Post, NPR, The National, and The Conversation. And those are just the sources that currently appear in the lead. I cite bundled them to not overcite, but I think eight high-quality sources are enough to "prove" a short description. If needed, I can add many more, but I think that would absolutely be overkill. I'm not sure where @Springee is finding "Most of the sources used to support that claim don't actually support it." I actually bolded the use of "celebrity" in the cite bundle so it could be easily found, and every single one of them describes him as a celebrity.

As an aside, I'm not sure Springee's concern is actually due weight; it sounds like they think this should be AfD'd, which is a completely separate issue that doesn't need hashing out here. --Kbabej (talk) 03:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

As I noted in my link, most of the sources (specifically the ones you reference) use either the term "celebrity" or a similar term but almost none of the presented sources (much less even a simple majority of sources that talk about Rittenhouse) claim he is a conservative celebrity. Note that even the article's short description says he is "American conservative celebrity" rather than the teen who shoot three people. Springee (talk) 04:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

As examples of the misuse of sources, The Globe only uses the term celebrity in their headline. Per WP:HEADLINE that makes it not usable. The WP article is an OpEd. A person interviewed by Slate said, "He’s a celebrity for many of these right-wing militia groups". Unless you are claiming "right-wing militia groups"=conservative that one doesn't support the claim either. These are examples of the sort of issues with the sources used to support this claim. Springee (talk) 04:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm happy to provide more sources with that description; there are many out there. Is your contention with the short description those three specific sources (leaving five other RS as the page currently stands), or is it the short description overall? If you have an alternative, what would you suggest? --Kbabej (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Here are some examples of additional coverage: There's the City Journal that wrote the subject "has recently entered the conservative celebrity circuit" here; The Washington Post wrote "The celebrity treatment that conservatives are giving Kyle Rittenhouse..." here; the San Antonio Current described him as "far-right celebrity Kyle Rittenhouse" here; PJ Media that wrote an entire article on him becoming a celebrity under the title "Why Is the Right Making Kyle Rittenhouse a Celebrity?" here; Mother Jones wrote "Rittenhouse quickly became the perfect young, right-wing celebrity.." here; Arizona Central said he was "caught up in his celebrity" here; etc, etc, etc.

Please note I have not read all these sources in depth, and I'm sure some don't appear as green-level at RSP (lookin' at you, PJ Media). I'm using these to demonstrate I just quickly pulled them off Google with a cursory search. Mainstream sources regularly refer to the subject this way. --Kbabej (talk) 04:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• What occupation would be better to list in the lead than something like "conservative celebrity"? That seems to basically be his job -- doing media appearances in conservative conferences, podcasts, etc. There are sources cited in the article which say "right-wing celebrity" in direct, exact terms, e.g. the first one cited ("He has since emerged as a rightwing celebrity"), but also ones that discuss it in less direct/more drown out terms, e.g. the Boston Globe article, which only mentions the exact word "celebrity" in the headline/subheader, but is generally talking about that throughout the rest of the article. I don't think listing his occupation as "celebrity" in line those articles is particularly problematic. Regarding little weight on the trial itself, that's what the article on the trial is for, no? The reason a Kyle Rittenhouse biography exists is because it doesn't make sense to discuss his media appearances in the article that is primarily discussing the shootings and subsequent trial. Endwise (talk) 04:41, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I see two issues. The first is that almost none of the presented sources actually establish that he is a "conservative celebrity" thus stating it in Wikivoice is undue. As I said, most of the sources that note the celebrity aspect either say he is a celebrity to a narrower group (militia, far-right etc) or say that his position/cause/criminal defense was seen as a cause celebre presumably for people who view is actions as legal self defense or similar. It is not at all clear that "conservatives" as a group view Rittenhouse as a celebrity nor that any of the source who make that claim would view that claim as true. The second issue is if we are going to cite the thing he is most known for, the shooting is it, hands down. It's not at all clear his post trial interviews etc will survive the 10YEAR test but his roll in the shooting will. Springee (talk) 04:51, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Springee, did you review the sources in the cite bundle as well as the additional ones I added in this thread? Just from the ones I added on this page, they almost all mention him being a conservative celebrity. City Journal: "conservative celebrity circuit"; Washington Post: "The celebrity treatment that conservatives"; PJ Media: "Why Is the Right Making Kyle Rittenhouse a Celebrity?"; Mother Jones: "the perfect young, right-wing celebrity"; and San Antonio Current: "far-right celebrity". They literally use "conservative", or a very close variation thereof (the Right; far-right). I'd argue "the Right" is basically synonymous to "conservative" in this instance. Even if we don't agree on that point, there are still the verbatim results.

Secondly, I've asked you this on the subject's talk page at least once, and up above in this thread as well: What do you suggest as a short description if you do not agree with "conservative celebrity"? --Kbabej (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

The second issue is if we are going to cite the thing he is most known for, the shooting is it, hands down -- I guess I can understand this point. Maybe we could have two sentences in the opening paragraph, one for the shootings/trial and one for his subsequent fame and media appearances? I.e. a division like "Rittenhouse is known for the Kenosha unrest shooting and subsequent trial. He now has fame/celebrity status and does media appearances."? (Obviously not in those words). Endwise (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Kbabej, I only reviewed the source in the article lead. I did see the previous discussion and it doesn't appear that sources have a consensus description when discussing his status as a "celebrity"/cause celebre etc. If they don't agree we shouldn't favor one vs the other nor put such a claim in Wiki-voice. Also, while some source will use "right-wing" and conservative interchangeably, few would agree that "far-right"=conservative. You reverted my attempt to provide a better intro where I described him as the teenager known for the shooting. Endwise, I think mentioning that his case made him a cause celebre is DUE. Many sources note that he got a lot of support from people who felt he was acting in self defense and they felt his prosecution was an attack on a right of self defense (many others felt the opposite). It would be better to say he was a cause celebre for many on the gun rights side and seen as deserving prosecution by many on the other side. It is way to early to know if his fame is going to be fleeting. Springee (talk) 05:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Endwise, my understanding of MOS:LEADBIO states the information for the first sentence in BLPs follows this order:

• 1. Name
• 2. DOB
• 3. Nationality/citizenship
• 4. "One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person held, avoiding subjective or contentious terms." (What I take to be the short description)
• 5. "The main reason the person is notable"

To me, it seems clear cut that the short description goes before a description of why the person is initially notable. --Kbabej (talk) 05:14, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I just did a Google news search for Rittenhouse. These are the first 4 hits and how the summarize him.

• Newsweek , "the teenager acquitted in November 2021 of first-degree intentional homicide and four other felony charges,"
• WP , " who shot and killed two people and wounded a third during a protest in Kenosha, Wis., in 2020, "
• The Root , "The acquitted Vigilante of Kenosha"
• USA Today , "Rittenhouse gained national attention in August 2020 after he went to a police brutality protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and fatally shot two men while wounding another – actions he argued were in self defense"
• Fox News , no specific summary description of Rittenhouse.

Basically, "conservative celebrity" is a very poor high level summary of Rittenhouse. Springee (talk) 05:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

So, again, @Springee, what is your suggestion? You have taken specific umbrage with the description. What is your suggestion to replace it? --Kbabej (talk) 05:14, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I made my suggestion. You reverted it. " is an American teenager who became known for his trial and acquittal after he shot three men in the Kenosha unrest shooting on August 26, 2020, in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The circumstances of that shooting made him a cause célèbre with some right-wing and gun rights groups. " (slightly edited from it's original form) Springee (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

"American teenager" is not an appropriate short description. While he initially became known for the shooting and trial, MOS:LEADBIO states the "main reason the person is notable" comes after the short description. The reason the BLP on the subject exists is because Rittenhouse is known for more than the shooting and trial, or else it would be covered under the parent article. The BLP is for coverage of the subjects life through today, not stopping at the point of the trial and verdict. Rittenhouse is notable today for parlaying his notoriety into a conservative celebrity status.

I've made my points and don't want to bludgeon the process; I'll take a step back so others have space to respond. Please ping me if needed! Cheers. --Kbabej (talk) 05:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

IMO Springee's text is much more informative, gets to the point of why he is wp:notable and why people will come to the article. (the "teenager" could be decided separately.) This is also supported by the presented review of the sources and review of what the first sentence should contain. Finally, defining him primarily as a celebrity sounds like "famous for being famous" which is definitely not the case here. North8000 (talk) 11:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree in general with Springee's main point re: "celebrity", but the bigger issue isn't the lead but the article in general reading like a fan bio of said celebrity. Lots of quoted praise, lots of detail about Rittenhouse's activities, perspectives, etc., without the context RS typically provide. So we have The Guardian's "Outcry as Kyle Rittenhouse sits down for Tucker Carlson Fox News interview" used just to say that "Carlson interviewed Rittenhouse about a wide range of subjects" and that Rittenhouse said he wants to be a lawyer or nurse. And this cnn op ed which is clearly critical of the interview used just to extract a long quote of Carlson's praise sans context. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:49, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• My take is as follows:

1. The lead paragraph is poorly written, and noncompliant with BLP, especially considering the subject was only 17 yo at the time.
2. Rittenhouse is not a celebrity. Civil unrest neither creates celebrity nor should it be celebrated.
3. Why does the section about his early life specifically state, "He is a white American." Does he somehow change color as he gets older? What is that about? Are we now including race and religion in all WP:BLPs?
4. FACT - found not guilty of even one of the 5 charges, and that must be made clear in the lead. He shot out of fear for his life; i.e., self-defense. That should not be omitted from the lead. Per NPR: Rittenhouse had a strong self-defense case and was found ...not guilty on the five charges he faced after fatally shooting two people and wounding a third during a night of unrest in Kenosha, Wis.
5. That article needs work to get it accurate and compliant with NPOV. Skirting around and avoiding mention of what that trial determined in its verdict is an embarrassment to this project; especially one that boasts NPOV and claims accuracy.
6. When it comes to BLPs, editors need to strictly adhere to policy, and present the facts in a dispassionate tone. Ask CNN+ what they'd do differently if they could do it over - see The Daily Beast article. And the

My post was on a pretty narrow question. A broader one is to echo the same points that Atsme just made. North8000 (talk) 11:35, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm on the fence about whether a separate BLP is warranted, or whether this falls under WP:BLP1E and should be covered under Kenosha unrest shooting. Rittenhouse is notable for that incident, in which he took an assault rifle to an anti-racism protest and used it to kill two people. His subsequent buddying around with white supremacists, his trial, acquittal, and embrace by the political right are potentially enough to justify a standalone article, although they're arguably extensions of the single incident for which he's notable.The strongest claim to notability for an independent article is Rittenhouse's celebrity on the political right. A decent number of reliable sources highlight him as a symbol of the Republican Party's fetishization and glorification of political violence against its ideological opponents. But again, that might be best handled in an "Aftermath" or "Legacy" section in the Kenosha shooting article, rather than a standalone BLP, since the themes have less to do with Rittenhouse himself and more to do with the mainstreaming of right-wing extremism and violence. MastCell  15:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

  I second that, and also would emphasize that there is no rush or time limit. We should respect his privacy and go to a standalone if his current stature and presence within the Republican right gets ongoing coverage or analysis in the mainstream. SPECIFICO talk 21:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I would add "two of them fatally" after mentioning that he shot three men. I would also place more emphasis on the shooting than on appearances before right-wing audiences, since that is his main claim to notability and the only reason he has an audience. And of course it received far greater attention in the media than his current career. The tone of the article could be less promotional. Although he was acquitted, it's questionable how he found himself in that situation. Also, as someone who chose to be a celebrity, he forfeits his right to privacy, at least to the extent that it is provided to otherwise unknown people in Misplaced Pages. TFD (talk) 00:49, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Glancing at the article talk page, why is it contentious to include that all the people who were shot had pursued or chased Rittenhouse? --Kyohyi (talk) 02:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Based in part on concerns raised in this discussion I have opened an AFD for the Rittenhouse BLP here . Springee (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The AfD failed to gain consensus. Some additional eyes on the article would be helpful. Springee (talk) 12:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Springee's statement is incorrect. There was overwhelming consensus the subject was notable and the article was summarily kept. What Springee meant is their opinion failed to gain consensus. --Kbabej (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• An RfC has been opened on the subject's talk page here about the short description. Any input appreciated. Thank you. --Kbabej (talk) 20:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Help needed for a long running dispute

There has been a dispute that has been going on for quite some time now on the 2022 Laguna Woods shooting article and the talks to resolve it have been going nowhere. Some help to break the deadlock would be great Thundercloss (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

You need to stop accusing other editors of not reading what you're writing, and either accept there is a 2-to-1 consensus against you, or start an RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:12, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I am accusing them of that because that’s the truth as evidenced by the things they are saying. Did you actually read the dispute? Thundercloss (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Good response, accuse an uninvolved editor of also not reading discussions. Perhaps, just maybe, you should accept that others disagree with you, and that possibly your position is not the correct one, and move on? No, it's the children who are wrong. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

since you’ve commented on the ani case against me, I’ll respond to your remarks here over there Thundercloss (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I concur with ScottishFinnishRadish. Gotta AGF. Andrevan@ 17:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Launch an RFC over there then. Slatersteven (talk) 13:34, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Further to the above, there are multiple issues that are being discussed on the talk page. Community input would be helpful as it would facilitate the dispute resolution process by increasing the probability that each one of them do not need to be resolved by a RFC Thundercloss (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

You still need to stop accusing other editors of not reading what you're writing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

can you provide your input to some of the discussions there? If you did maybe the other editors will pay more attention to the things that I’m saying Thundercloss (talk) 20:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Oakhill, UK

The user Adakiko is repeatedly deleting clear information - that no British homeless people were offered sponsorship from the vilage of Oakhill despit this being obvious from their own very cited article. Via 78 70 161 206 (talk) 10:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

 Administrator note: OP has been blocked for disruptive editing. --Kinu /_c 10:18, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Is the word “claim” OK to use in a statement when “stated” is neutral and accurate ?

Would like to get consensus one way or the other on the appropriateness of using the word "claim" (as opposed to the Misplaced Pages-recommended use of more neutral terms such as "said" or "stated") in this edit where, following WP's guidelines here, I replaced "claim" with "stated" in this article but Horse Eye's Back objects to my edit. I am coming to this forum because failure to satisfy WP:CLAIM is failure to satisfy WP:NPOV because of the bias it introduces, as noted in the WP:NPOV policy here.

I made several attempts at reaching agreement, including 3 clear edit summaries pointing to the policies being broken, namely, this edit (fails WP:CLAIM), this one (fails WP:SECONDARY), and this one (fails WP:BURDEN). After Horse Eye’s restored the illegitimate word "claim" twice, I also held 3 rounds of discussions with him here, but they were not successful.

In addition to the 3 policy violations above, the entire statement with the word "claim" in it is also in a violation of WP:COPYVIO, for it was copied verbatim from the newspaper article cited but without providing the required quotation marks. For comparison, the original newspaper article cited at the end of that statement reads,

• He claims...that the F.B.I. hounded Marina for years because it suspected she was a former K.G.B., and the WP article reads,
• Ritter claims the F.B.I. hounded Marina for years because it suspected she was former K.G.B.

Not including the quotation marks has the additional effect of giving the false impression that the statement is a generally-accepted fact (which it is not) and not someone’s opinion (which it is). The statement is the opinion of the article’s writer; it is not fact. I wrote the other editor here that the statement, as it stood with the "claim" word there, was presenting an opinion as a fact. But, still, the editor went off on a tangent here and questioned me when the burden of proof was on him, for he is the editor restoring material in conflict with WP:CLAIM.

IAE, after 3 rounds of discussion here, the editor still failed here to provide a convincing reason for overriding WP policy to permit his use of "claim" in place of WP’s suggested neutral term "stated" (WP:NPOV). Misplaced Pages's policy here is clear, that we shouldn't edit in such a way as to "call the credibility of an individual's statement (here, Scott Ritter’s statement) into question". That is, we don't know (and, for that matter, neither does the author) if the FBI did or did not hound Ms. Marina, so we should not present Scott Ritter’s statement as a "claim" but simply leave it as a statement, and this is accomplished by the use of the replacement word "stated".

In an attempt to help him keep his statement there with his preferred "claim" word intact, I went as far as suggesting to Horse's Eye here 4 different ways how he could bring his statement into compliance, but he refused all of them here. For example, I proposed to Horse Eye's Back that one way we could keep the statement with the word "claim" in it, was if he could provide cites from other sources that also used the word "claim", but once again he came back empty-handed here. He could not find one single additional source that made the same "claim" allegation, and his only "leg to stand on" was the one single source by the one single author in the one single article given in the cite.

Given Horse's Eye failure to find even a single other source, but still attempting to reach a compromise, I even proposed to him here that perhaps the statement could be rephrased from

• Ritter claims the F.B.I. hounded Marina for years because it suspected she was former K.G.B, to
• According to Matt Bai, writing for the New York Times Magazine, Ritter claims "the F.B.I. hounded Marina for years because it suspected she was former K.G.B

This rewording would have made it clear that the "claim" part was the opinion of the author and not a consensus of journalists or historians at large. However, he still refused to compromise here.

So, I ask the community to provide your thoughts on the justification as to whether or not the statement should be (a) kept in its current form, should be (b) adjusted to instead read "stated", or (c) should be eliminated entirely for lacking additional validating secondary sources.

BTW, Kleinpecan was also involved in the very first restoring of that questionable content and he, too, failed to comply with WP:BURDEN when replied to here.

Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 07:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

As MOS:CLAIM says, To say that someone asserted or claimed something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying disregard for evidence. We might say that for fringe (or even false) claims, e.g. "astrologers claim to divine personality traits from the movements of stars", but without reason to think that claim is fringe, I think you're correct to say that it is better to go with stated.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with all this opinion vs. fact stuff though. Swapping out the word "claim" for "state" is largely an editorial decision (and it's okay for the NYT to differ from an encyclopedia like Misplaced Pages on that); it doesn't change anything substantive about the fact of the matter. When you read in the NYT that "so and so claimed X", that doesn't mean "so and so said X and they were probably wrong about it". It's largely an editorial difference, which Misplaced Pages, as an encyclopedia, has decided to fall down one way on. Endwise (talk) 08:56, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm impressed by the amount of WP:PA you managed to fit in there... WP:COPYVIO hasn't even been mentioned on the talk page, if talk page discussion was not exhausted why go to a noticeboard? I still contend that you are incorrect that "The fact here is that Matt Bai wrote that; the fact is not that Mr. Ritter made that claim" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I think "claimed" should generally only be used where there is a dispute, especially over factual matters, that the article covers both sides of, explaining why the uncertainty is indicated. Johnbod (talk) 16:50, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that "states" is better per the guideline. The sentence is a recent insertion in a BLP and removing it entirely is an option. Another source says "Ritter's answers were referred to the FBI, which began a counterintelligence investigation. Among the concerns was his August 1991 marriage to Marina Khatiashvili ..." -- i.e. to others some degree of FBI concern is not a matter that's doubtful. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:15, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

When is listing how a politician voted DUE in an article, what level of sourcing is needed?

If a RS discusses a vote for a bill (or similar) and then lists either supporters or opposition, when is that DUE in a BLP about the politician? I asked a similar question earlier this year . Recently a sentence to the effect of " was one of # who voted against NATO expansion" was added to several politician's BLPs .

My question/concern is regards to what is needed to establish weight for inclusion in such a case. What sort of sourcing is needed for such vote listing to become DUE? Personally I think any addition like this needs two things. First, it needs sourcing that says why the BLP's vote was significant. That shouldn't be just "they voted against the Obviously Good Bill". Rather the addition to the Wiki article needs to explain why that vote is significant in context of the politician. "Senator X has consistently supported programs for including these ." Second, it needs a RS that supports not only that they voted for X (that could be confirmed by government records). It needs a RS to say why this vote is significant to the senator. Else we are engaged in OR by using our own opinions rather than RSs to say the vote is DUE in context of the BLP.

In the case of the MTG article the talk page seems mixed on inclusion with some saying this supports existing themes in the article (to what extent is that OR?) while others disagree. In the case of the Miller BLP a large swath of the article is little more than statements that she voted for/against various things. This seems to be a general issue with political BLPs. I will add a project politics notice. Springee (talk) 20:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

A random list of random votes that no sources care about, or issues that are pro forma or very minor, like so-and-so voted for the post office to be named after Ben Franklin, I agree, is undue and unimportant. When it's a significant vote on a significant issue that the politician has spoken on, and given previous press releases or interviews on, or is attacked/praised in the press for taking a certain stance or a position, and the vote goes toward other related content in the article about that issue, it should be kept. That is not original research or inappropriate synthesis, it's simply grouping related issues and content together to accurately reference the politicians' stances, positions, issues, and votes on a related topic. It isn't OR to say that John Smith voted against government funding for dog catching, and he also has spoken at the ASPCA about his views on stray dogs. That's a reasonable assumption, assuming we can source both statements separately, that they are related. WP:SYNTH tells us that the paragraph in which which "each of the sentences is carefully sourced, using a source that refers to the same dispute" is OK. WP:NOTOBVIOUSSYNTH tells us that it's OK to connect sources so long as we aren't drawing conclusions or making inferences beyond what would be obvious. It's obvious that Marjorie Taylor Greene voting for or against NATO, relates to her statements on that topic. ""The sun is pretty big, but the moon is not so big." The bundled citation uses one source for the size of the sun, and another for the size of the moon. Neither says that the sun is bigger than the moon, but the article is making that comparison. Given the two sources, the conclusion is obvious. So a typical reader can use the sources to check the accuracy of the comparison. " See also: Misplaced Pages:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not just any synthesis. See also: WP:MNA "When writing articles, there may be cases where making some assumptions is necessary to get through a topic. For example, in writing about evolution, it is not helpful to hash out the creation-evolution controversy on every page. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc." We don't need to explain that taking a stance and voting on a bill are related. We don't need to explain that views on NATO are of geopolitical importance in the context of the conflict between the US and Russia. Regardless, both are easily sourced if they are being challenged, and that is not OR. Andrevan@ 21:11, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Aside from your personal concern about having such information recorded in any particular BLP, why should this be a difficult question? It simply depends on the WEIGHT of RS reporting and whether such sources portray the vote as having been significant. SPECIFICO talk 21:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

In the example given, I think it should be clarified that WEIGHT has to do with viewpoints. So if there are a number of sources that John Smith has spoken at the ASPCA, John Smith once gave Rover a poison biscuit, John Smith funded an investigation into the chew toy industry, and then an editor is adding a new well-referenced, reliable source for a new statement: "John Smith voted against government funding for dog catching." Then, an editor came along and removed the new statement, saying it is UNDUE because we are not a vote list. My argument is that, provided this new statement is adequate in other ways, it may be DUE weight since we are covering the overall stance of Smith toward canines in general over time, and so we don't consider it UNDUE weight for a single vote in that case, even if it only has a few reliable references. And maybe this is not clear in the policy and should be addressed more as a recommendation/guideline from WikiProjects and specific topic areas, with a case by case basis. I'm a little concerned about editors going around and removing any mention of a 1-time vote and claiming there's a consensus that adding votes is OR or UNDUE all the time. Andrevan@ 21:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Such removals, inasofar as I've observed them, are almost always done to push a POV or whitewash a well-established pattern of speech or behavior by the BLP subject. SPECIFICO talk 21:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Ideally, there should be RSed that say that a politican focuses efforts on areas x, y and z. Such that how they vote on bills associated with x, y and z should be included, but even then using discretion to focus on major bills. We should not force a lawmakers interest in a topic by simply combining multiple vote results documented by RSes, it should be found as an issue they specifically deal with. For example, pointing out a GOP lawmaker has voted against wider health care bills when otherwise the lawmaker doesn't specifically have that interest would be inappropriate. This is how this NATO vote feels like, its being added to shame the lawmakers. Masem (t) 21:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Well of course we are only relying on secondary RS for starters. But in this case the vote itself is widely interpreted as a form of virtue signalling by isolationist foreign policy advocates. So a signalling vote is kind of open to secondary interpretation and commentary on what view is being signalled. SPECIFICO talk 21:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I want to generally disagree that we can only write reliable information on lawmakers' votes if there are RS that say they focus efforts on a specific issue. As to the NATO vote I will say that it was added to lawmakers' pages indiscriminately, but I only reverted its removal on 2 out of the handful or so it was added to: Marjorie Taylor Greene and Jeff Van Drew, specifically because we already had content in the article or that there is available RS content out there that specifically addresses these congresspersons' statements and actions on the topic of NATO and Russian foreign policy. Andrevan@ 21:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

They way to view this is that lawmakers see every bill that comes by, so we could easily argue that we can make sections on standard issues/topics and document the lawmaker that way. But it is better to be more refined here and avoid BLP situations as well as IINFO and possible SYNTH by focusing on the lawmaker's known topics of interest. We don't need to make special allocation in a GOP lawmakers article for, say, health care, if they have no specisl interest in it and that they follow the GOP party line in voting. Masem (t) 22:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, if a lawmaker routinely votes party line, we can best summarize by saying exactly that. No need to highlight their votes on particular bills. Blueboar (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I cannot agree with the idea that votes on an issue like whether to withdraw from NATO, are SYNTH if we follow them with properly referenced content about possible amplification of Russian propaganda. Those topics are related, per WP:MNA, it is not IINFO if done surgically and in a cohesive way, or SYNTH to add that vote to a series of text or in a section about Russian foreign policy. I agree that this does not apply in every case, it depends on the situation, and the relevance, and weight. People keep throwing around BLP as though BLP would somehow prevent what votes a Congressperson has made. I really don't understand how the BLP policy would make a Congressperson's votes somehow not able to be included. Could you elaborate more how you see BLP restricting the inclusion of Congressional votes? Andrevan@ 22:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

For example hypothetically a GOP votes against an abortion rights bill but their position on abortion has never been clear before. Including their vote without any other position is a form of shaming and coatracking (given that abortion rights is generally seen in the eyes of the media as a good thing). Maybe the lawmaker had a reason to vote against a bill, such as if it also had added pork, so it would not be appropriate to make that callout knowing they had other reasons. Of course we'd hope those reasons would be documented too. Masem (t) 22:53, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

That is not analogous to the situation because in this situation, their position was previously clear and there are already sources discussing that and closely related positions and issues. I will for the sake of argument, agree with you that just adding a vote on a bill with absolutely nothing else about that position is not part of what I'm defending. Andrevan@ 22:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

There is synthesis/OR, and there is weight. Properly cited information on how a person voted is, of course, not OR by itself, and essentially never a BLP violation. I'm not sure about the point of talking about these hypotheticals, but I will say that it's unlikely for an individual vote to be worth noting, even if it bucks the party line. General statements on voting patterns, sure. But legislators vote on hundreds of bills each year, many of which are wholly anodyne, and so this is an easy vehicle to push a POV. Ovinus (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Nobody is saying every vote is worthy of inclusion, but neither is it true that a single vote could never be included if that vote got enough coverage and was relevant or important enough. E.g. John McCain's vote on Obamacare repeal. Andrevan@ 23:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan, how do you know that MTG's vote is related to votes on Russia? Maybe she opposes NATO as a "globalist" institution. The Republican Right has opposed NATO since before Putin was born. TFD (talk) 23:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

1) Elsewhere you've denied the existence of the Republican Right pre-1964. 2) In the case of MTG, I've not seen any source write that she was acting on the basis of policy or principle. Ever. SPECIFICO talk 00:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It's related because it's about the same topic, which is foreign policy, and she's made a number of statements on Russia/Ukraine. She has prior context. For example, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) on Tuesday suggested Ukraine bears responsibility for provoking a Russian invasion, breaking with the views of Republican leaders in her latest comments that more closely mirror Russian talking points than Western views of the conflict. Here's her own words in which she tied withdrawing from NATO to Russia and Ukraine. US should pull out of NATO instead of waging a proxy war with Russia, United States' Georgian Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene stated (source may not be good, I'm looking for a better one besides Newsweek and RT) Andrevan@ 00:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan: Nobody is saying every vote is worthy of inclusion, neither is it true that a single vote could never be included if that vote got enough coverage and was relevant or important enough This seems like a bit of a non sequitur; I didn't say anyone was saying the first thing, and I was not asserting the second. I do think immediately juxtaposing a politician's stated opinions with how they vote--when that connection is not made in the source--is inappropriate synthesis. But it's likely that a secondary source on how a politician voted will say something about their history. Ovinus (talk) 00:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It is not a non-sequitur: You stated " it's unlikely for an individual vote to be worth noting, even if it bucks the party line," I offered a notable counterexample. Andrevan@ 01:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, where did I deny the existance of the Republican right pre-1964? I might have said that both parties contained right-wing elements and that between 1964 and 1980 they migrated to the Republican Party. TFD (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Weight is established by coverage in reliable sources, not by what editors find obvious. In fact, it's not obvious that she voted this way because of support of Russia. The Republican isolationist right has long opposed NATO and other "globalist" institutions. Their patron senator, Robert A. Taft, although he supported the UN, said that NATO was more likely to lead to war than to prevent it. TFD (talk) 22:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

No one argued that weight was determined by opinion. Weight is determined by prominence in sources. But it does not make sense that a Congressperson's vote on an issue would be UNDUE if we have weight for other stances and activities that are related. I am arguing that it is obvious that her vote on NATO is related to her other positions and votes on Russian foreign policy, given that those positions are well-documented. "Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested." WP:WIKIVOICE Andrevan@ 22:44, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Let experts decide there is an "obvious" connection and then we can include it. You must be aware that what is obvious to one person may not be obvious to another. Individuals relate new information to their pre-existing world views. MTG for example connected news about fires in Florida to her belief in a conspiracy theory. No amount of evidence or argument could dissuade her. Your arguments sound a lot like what I would expect from MTG. TFD (talk) 23:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

TFD, the WP:MNA refers to the obviousness of basic table stakes in a field. Everyone in politics understands that if MTG says US should drop out of NATO, and also doesn't want Scandinavian states to join NATO, and then explicitly ties her view on NATO to Ukraine-Russia, those 3 facts are all related to her position on U.S.-Russian foreign policy. We don't have to find a source that says what NATO is or why it pertains to foreign policy. That stretches the bounds of WP:NOR, which has clear space for simple grouping of information. Misplaced Pages:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not a rigid rule, Misplaced Pages:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not obvious II, Misplaced Pages:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not just any synthesis, Misplaced Pages:These are not original research#Compiling facts and information. Let the readers draw their own conclusions after seeing related facts in juxtaposition. Compiling related facts and information from independent sources is part of writing an encyclopedia. For example, multiple secondary sources are usually required before the notability of a subject is established. Those sources must then be combined to produce a cohesive, comprehensive, and coherent article. Neutral point of view requires presenting all significant viewpoints on an issue, and may include collecting opinions from multiple, possibly biased and/or conflicting, sources. Organizing published facts and opinions that are based on sources that are directly related to the article topic—without introducing your opinion or fabricating new facts, or presenting an unpublished conclusion—is not original research. Comparing and contrasting conflicting facts and opinion is not original research, as long as any characterization of the conflict is sourced to reliable sources. Identifying synonymous terms, and collecting related information under a common heading is also part of writing an encyclopedia. Reliable sources do not always use consistent terminology, and it is sometimes necessary to determine when two sources are calling the same thing by different names. This does not require a third source to state this explicitly, as long as the conclusion is obvious from the context of the sources. And accusing me of sounding like MTG is verging into an unproductive territory of inflammatory commenting-on-the-contributor which is contravened by policy. Andrevan@ 23:58, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I think theres a severe misreading of WEIGHT here, in that people think that if they can find five or ten sources on something that means it has the due weight to be included. The real question is how much weight is given to this one vote in proportion to say their entire career, or term of office, or even year. If something is a footnote in the overall coverage of the person it lacks the weight to be included here. If it is something that a biography of the person would give some space to then it may be appropriate to include. But just because you can find a dozen news articles saying so and so voted against some bill does not mean that it has due weight to be included. nableezy - 23:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

That is a misread of the policy. If it shows up in sources, weight is proportional to the weight in reliable sources. Fringe theories that are not notable can be excluded, or they may be included if it is a significant minority view. It does not need to register sufficient to show up in their biography. Please cite where the policy says that. There will be plenty things in Misplaced Pages that a politician might not get in their biographical book. Andrevan@ 23:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

No, it is not, weight is determined by its proportionality. If there are 20 sources talking about one vote some politician made, and of course there are because there are 20 newspapers that cover these things, but 2 million sources that discuss that person then no that is not sufficient to say I have 20 sources that means I get a paragraph to talk about this one vote. You dont get to decide which votes are important, thats the secondary sources that determine that. And they do that by giving it a proportionate amount of coverage to its importance. We follow that. Your view that oh I feel that this NATO vote is related to these other topics and I have a handful of sources that discuss it so I get to put it in their biography, that is the misread of policy. nableezy - 00:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

re: the same argument I've been making at User talk:Jimbo Wales#Use of term "conspiracy theorist".

We really have a problem on WP with editors wanting to rush in to include information that could be taken as critical of the BLP or topic, just because RSes report on it. There's a reason RECENTISM is necessary and to think about how the article should read 10 years from now, instead of trying to capture the court of public opinion (the media) "now". This type of discussion is just an extension of that. We need editors to be thinking far more impartially and dispassionately about these "hot" topics. Masem (t) 00:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It is entirely your spin and a novel, incorrect take that citing a Congressperson's votes is shaming them or is somehow critical of them. Andrevan@ 00:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Without any other context, outside of knowing where the media stands on matters, focusing on when the media points out that a lawmaker votes against things like NATO membership, abortion rights, health care, and the like without any more significant context is equivalent to coatracking on the part of the WP editor including the information. Now if the sources explain what the problem is with them voting in that fashion or have more context, then that's less a problem. Masem (t) 00:46, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

But there is context for the NATO position, and it's a single sentence about the NATO vote that is being challenged. Nobody said voting that way was a problem. It's just a fact of what happened. It's not bad or good. It's a political position, we are just reporting on it. I don't know where you're getting that it's a problem to vote against NATO. Andrevan@ 00:49, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

That is a misread of how WP:PROPORTION and WP:WEIGHT work. It is a proportion that the viewpoint is accorded in reliable published sources. If some sources don't mention it at all, that doesn't make it a minority viewpoint. It would still be accorded a limited amount of real estate if it did not get significant coverage. Uncontested claims should be stated in WP:WIKIVOICE. It's not my feeling that determines the weight, but it is also not the case that you determine weight by "importance," the term is "prominence." A well-referenced situation may be merited to have a sentence (which is all we're talking about here) even if it's 20 sources out of millions that discuss them. It is a rough proportion that we judge for weight, and not a percentage of total sources, but a rough proportion that a viewpoint is accorded in reliable material. A simple fact that nobody contests or disputes is not a fringe view. Andrevan@ 00:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Just repeating something doesnt make it true. I didnt say every source needs to discuss it, but yes proportionality means you dont take some minor detail about a widely covered person and give it more weight in their biography than the universe of sources about that person gives it. Almost every vote will be found in sources. The Hill, Politico, local papers, they'll all cover a vote. That is a matter of routine reporting. But if sources do not give it weight relative to every other thing they give weight to then it doesnt belong. I dont know why youre throwing FRINGE in here, nobody is contesting that such and such vote took place. What matters is whether or not it is given enough weight, relative to the rest of the material about that person, in secondary sources. And kindly stop acting like you are the arbiter of policy and how it applies. nableezy - 00:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

But if sources do not give it weight relative to every other thing they give weight to then it doesnt belong. I think Andrevan was just trying to keep on track with policy. The green words from your post above sound like you have got the policy wrong, which is all Andre said. SPECIFICO talk 00:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

And how is that not what policy says? Just saying it is a misreading does not make it so. See below for basically the same argument. A particular vote may have long term relevance or significance … but we often won’t know that until until journalists stop writing about it and historians start to do so. nableezy - 00:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

That is an argument to reduce weight but not to entirely eliminate well-sourced factual information that has sufficient coverage. Andrevan@ 01:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• As often is the case with articles related to politics and politicians, we have to be very wary of RECENTISM. News media tend to be very poor sources for determining long term relevance and significance. But as an encyclopedia, long term relevance and significance is precisely what we want/need to determine. A particular vote may have long term relevance or significance … but we often won’t know that until until journalists stop writing about it and historians start to do so. Blueboar (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  But simple statements of fact may be supported by primary sources. Andrevan@ 00:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Nobody is challenging the factual accuracy of the statement. That is a complete red herring. nableezy - 01:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

What we're talking about here is adding a Congressional vote in a single sentence, which can be sourced by simple factual primary and secondary sources. Andrevan@ 01:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

And why this vote and not the vote to repeal the Iraq War authorization? What gives this one vote the prominence or weight to be elevated over all the other votes any of these people have made? That is the issue, not the accuracy of the statement did somebody vote yea or nay. nableezy - 01:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Depending on the argument, I would likely be OK with adding the vote to repeal the Iraq War authorization as well? Has MTG made statements on her views on this that appear in RS? Is she somehow unique or significant for her stance on that? Because remember, I said that I did not think this applied to everyone or every vote, despite the goalpost-shifting and slippery-sloping that is going on here. Andrevan@ 01:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

If you are unable to articulate what metric would determine which vote merits inclusion then it is definitionally arbitrary and based on your own personal opinion. We dont decide what votes are defining or have any relevance or significance, the sources do that, and just waving ten sources about one vote does not demonstrate that proportional weight to be given to that one vote. nableezy - 02:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I think I just did articulate the test - votes with meaningful reliable source coverage and a relationship to the subject's positions or statements or actions, should merit inclusion. Or did you mean a mathematical formula? It's not a formula, these are case-by-case. MTG has a well-established view of Russia-Ukraine and NATO, then she votes against NATO. There are other examples surely, but it depends. It's not a measurable thing, it's a question for editors to evaluate, weigh, discuss, thoughtfully, and in accordance with the policy and guidelines that apply. Andrevan@ 02:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It actually is measurable, but that depends on RECENTISM. It is far easier to determine the weight of any individual vote if we have sources 10 years out that explain why the vote was significant, rather than depending on immediate news.

There are limited cases, such as Manchin's known obstruction, but that's a case of clear extensive coverage of Manchin's past voting coverage. Masem (t) 02:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

That would turn nearly every legislative politician's article in to a tally of their votes. nableezy - 02:50, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Certainly not, as mentioned there are hundreds of votes, and politicians don't go and make public statements about everything. I do expect that for the major issues of the day that get significant coverage, each significant politician would have information on how they voted, as it should, since the sources do. MTG gets a lot of coverage and makes a lot of public statements. Someone like Nita Lowey I don't think you're going to have too many controversial statements about NATO or abortion that need to be covered. It is an effect of our RS/V policy that louder, more prominent, voices will necessarily get more coverage for their activities since sources write more about them. Andrevan@ 02:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Springee: I'm afraid you'll find that bringing American political bios (particularly BLPs) to NPoV status, is extremely difficult. GoodDay (talk) 03:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• This is a complex question, which to some extent has to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

• The easy part is that some secondary sourcing is needed, at a bare minimum; using primary sources for how someone voted is a bad idea because politicians will often vote against bills for procedural reasons (eg. voting against the "give everyone a puppy" bill because they support the "give everyone a puppy and a pony" bill instead.) So we need secondary sourcing to provide context. Don't cite votes directly to the congressional records, except maybe in the most trivial and uncontroversial cases.
• When significant secondary sourcing exists, I think it's hard to argue for complete exclusion - a single sentence noting a vote, in the section of the article devoted to that particular issue, is usually reasonable. Sure, it could possibly be WP:UNDUE, but for a politician, their actions in office are the key to their notability, making it an uphill climb to argue that any vote that has received significant secondary coverage is undue for even a brief mention in a larger section devoted to that aspect of their views or term in office. Biographical stuff like their kids' ages or where they grew up or their jobs prior to getting elected might be undue; but votes that received significant secondary coverage are central, just like roles for an actor or works for an author, because it's directly part of their notability
• Now, in situations where they have an extremely lengthy record on that issue the importance of any individual vote might be low, especially if it's a vote that is in-line with all their other votes and which received only passing coverage; but it can still be obliquely part of a larger summary of their voting record. That is to say, if one vote is insignificant I would expect that to be because they have a lengthy history of voting in this way on this issue and we can just find a source stating that and cite that instead.
• If the vote goes against their previously stated positions or principles and is WP:EXCEPTIONAL in that way, it requires slightly better sourcing to demonstrate that - this is where the "we have to be careful the vote wasn't for procedural reasons, which means we need secondary sources analyzing it" bit comes in - but is also probably more notable if that sourcing can be found.
• Aside from that specific case, I would generally avoid arguments along the lines of "this vote is inherently exceptional" or the like. It usually isn't in any doubt how they actually voted; beyond that point, saying that a vote is exceptional starts become a value judgment on our part. Also, some people above are talking about including or excluding votes based on whether it makes the subject look bad - for votes in particular I would generally argue against using that as a criterion. High-quality unbiased secondary sources will tell us what the vote means and how it was significant; if people think the source is WP:BIASED, they can bring it up on WP:NPOVN or wherever and it can be settled with an RFC, but we have to accept the reality that in the present-day US political environment there are going to be people who will just say the entire mainstream media is biased and at that point it's not going to really be possible (or necessary) WP:SATISFY them - if people continue to argue that eg. the AP and the NYT are all significantly biased, start an RFC and move on, don't get bogged down forever. Saying eg. "we can't say this politician, who consistently opposed gay rights throughout their career, voted against gay rights in this specific situation, that makes them look bad" is... basically an argument to misrepresent them based on an editor's personal view of what a "good" politician looks like. It isn't a WP:BLP issue to say that someone holds or adheres to the views they stridently say they do; and it's effectively POV to omit or downplay a politician's clearly-stated views because we think they make them look bad.

Ultimately, though, our purpose is to summarize the highest-quality sources, with weight and focus reflective of theirs. If the sources treat a vote as significant then it's significant, or at least significant enough to mention or to be encompassed in a summary somewhere; if they don't treat it as significant, then it isn't. It's fine to demand high-quality sources, but not to continuously the second-guess high-quality ones we do have; as noted on WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH, continuously doubting high-quality sources is a sign of tendentious editing. When there's a basic disagreement like that, hold an RFC and move on. --Aquillion (talk) 03:24, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Endorse Andrevan@ 03:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Even if there exists lots of sources for a single vote, what we want these articles to look like in the long run is something akin to records like that of John Glenn, where the highlights of what his political positions were and what he was known to support or oppose are broadly covered in a handful of paragraphs, with no specific vote actually discussed. And that's all something that takes time in latter sources (biographies, academic works, etc.) to develop. That's not to say that there are some current lawmakers whose position on certain topics can be readily documented without necessarily focusing on any specific vote (eg Manchin), but as others have said, even if RSes covered how some lawmakers voted on a specific bill, it is usually not at the summary-level that we want WP to write for. By focusing on the larger issues the lawmaker champions or fights against, we avoid a lot of any potential problems with BLP, SYNTH, and all that. Masem (t) 05:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. There is no desire to eliminate specific votes from articles if they are well-referenced, I don't see this imperative in policy anywhere. There is no BLP problem with voting, I don't understand where this idea came from that we should remove votes because of BLP. BLP tells us to be careful that allegations or potentially negative or libelous statements and those sorts of things need extra vigilance. It does not say that specific votes are too detailed or somehow damaging to the reputation of the person, votes are not bias, and they are not negative, they are just activities. It is likely that John Glenn doesn't include specific votes because of the lack of coverage for these votes since Glenn is not a modern politician but one from a slightly earlier media coverage era. A better example is John McCain: "In the lame duck session of the 111th Congress, McCain voted for the compromise Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010, but against the DREAM Act (which he had once sponsored) and the New START Treaty. Most prominently, he continued to lead the eventually losing fight against "Don't ask, don't tell" repeal." Andrevan@ 12:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• I don't see how it could possibly be SYNTH or a BLP issue to neutrally report noteworthy individual votes a lawmaker has taken, based on what high-quality neutral sources treat as noteworthy, and reflecting the tone and focus those sources t ake. We need those secondary sources, but once we have them it becomes an uphill climb to argue for complete omission - WP:DUE weight is based on sources, not our personal opinions or preferences, and the sources indicate that this was an important enough vote to warrant at least a one-sentence mention somewhere in the body. It could definitely benefit from being expanded into a paragraph or section on her larger views on NATO, sure, and eventually such a section might encompass all her votes on NATO without enumerating them, but that's the opposite of arguing for complete removal - the way we write such subjects is to start with the available coverage according to the weight and focus it gives us, and expand from there over time per WP:EVENTUALISM. Arguing that her article can completely omit her views on NATO (which is what removal would mean) seems like a nonstarter to me given the sourcing. And you've mentioned BLP several times now - you will have to lay out, specifically, how you feel this is a BLP issue, because I don't see any hint of an argument that it could fall under that. Opposing NATO is not like being a white supremacist or a fascist, which require stronger sources due to their exceptional nature; saying that someone opposes expanding NATO (when that fact clearly passes WP:V) implies no value judgment. --Aquillion (talk) 23:20, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

  Let's put the case that started this thread: the simple addition of those 18 GOP representatives that voted against the NATO resolution without any other context. That the editor didn't add to those that voted in favor of it (nor those that did not vote on it) is a selective POV stance implicitly stating that WP supports the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO and those Representatives that voted against that should be called out. That's both a NOR, NPOV, and BLP problem. And since we do not routinely include the full vote roster for any bill (this is something we can link to on the Fed. Reg.) then simply adding cases of lawmakers voting against the popular opinion (as reported by the media) without any additional context is effectively placing blame on these lawmakers. This is regardless of how many RSes are discussing the vote, but on the assumption that nothing more to provide context can be added.

  When there is context, like there is already for MTG and her stance on NATO in general, then that's far less an issue since this can be used to expand that section, particularly if the RSes reporting on this vote connect it to her stance. Then that's definitely outside being a BLP issue. But, and this is more towards thinking the long term, it is better to not try to focus on individual votes but on the larger issues. You mention that my example of John Glenn above was before the age of modern reporting, but at the same time, we have far too many news sources trying to report on every miniscle detail which is beyond the depth of what WP should be covering. That we could potentially document every vote with context made by a lawmaker, it is better to aim for coverage that is better attuned for an encyclopedia, which also helps to remove potential further BLP and NPOV issues. Masem (t) 00:15, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  "That the editor didn't add to those that voted in favor of it (nor those that did not vote on it) is a selective POV stance implicitly stating that WP supports the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO" Whaaa???? This argument is really illogical. And is not compliant with policy whatsoever. Andrevan@ 00:16, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Follows WP:IMPARTIAL. We do not take sides, so whether Sweden and Finland join NATO is not in Wikivoice's interest. But by only mentioning lawmakers that voted against that position (absent further context), that is implicitly taking a position on the matter. Masem (t) 00:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  We are not taking sides, that's NPOV. It's not a POV violation that the vote was only added to the page of people who voted against it. Because, everyone else who voted for it, or didn't vote at all, didn't get covered in reliable source material for doing so because it was not interesting or notable. That an individual editor only edited the pages of people who voted against it, does NOT, imply WP wants Finland to join NATO, that is really quite a bizarre assertion. Andrevan@ 00:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  It 100% is a problem. I mean, we as editors know that the popular opinion (as reported through RSes) is for these countries joining NATO, that's got to be taken as a given. So pointing out those and only those that voted against it without further context is a badge of shame and thus against BLP, one that is going against the popular opinion. Masem (t) 00:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  I have not commented on the popular opinion on NATO in the US or in Finland or anywhere, it is not a given, and it is not relevant at all. "Badge of shame" is not an accurate description of the vote, we are simply covering factual information on MTG's position. Nobody ever said it was a bad thing. She is, based on her statements and votes, anti-US-in-NATO, anti-Finland-in-NATO, anti-Sweden-in-NATO. She's been accused of aping Putin propaganda (attributed, NOT wikivoice, by critics). We are not making a value judgment on whether that is a good or bad position. We are REPORTING FACTS. Further I want to say I am very concerned that an admin on wikipedia thinks that adding things that are unpopular to a page violates BLP. See WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Andrevan@ 00:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Again, on MTG's page, there's context. The issue was what started this thread, only reporting on those that voted against it. And if you're talking about this matter (MTG + NATO), I would expect you to be reasonably well versed where public opinion is to understand when the vote was added to those lawmakers that voted against it without context, that was a badge of shame.

  There is no NPOV issue with readding it to MTG's page given there's plenty of context with her and NATO, which at least should be expressed in simply reiterating her view w/o implicitly stating in wikivoice any right or wrong about the NATO issue. Though I am saying from an encyclopedic view, we should not be focused on indiviual votes but on a larger narrative, but that's not an NPOV issue. Masem (t) 01:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Well, I'm glad we agree it is proper and not an NPOV or WEIGHT or BLP issue on MTG's page when placed in proper context. I certainly understand and take your point that if a user were existing only to add unpopular votes with no context or significance to articles about certain people, that user is probably POV pushing. However, that isn't the present case, and per WP:AGF, it is legitimate as pertaining to our present circumstances, unless you believe otherwise? I believe a good faith user tried to add good faith information on this NATO vote. He might have added it a bit out of context on some of the other pages, I haven't done the research as yet on the full list, I reverted it on this article and Jeff Van Drew knowing that they have taken a public view of NATO. I actually do not know if NATO is polling well right now or if it would be a popular view to MTG's base or voters that are likely to vote for MTG's opponent, but it is not relevant as I said. I have long since learned that many things I like are unpopular and there are many popular things I don't like, so it's pointless to speculate.

  It sounds like we landed on a rough agreement, which is always good in these conversations. However, at the risk of reopening the surface of the dispute, I still want to delve the idea that BLP or WEIGHT means we cannot talk about individual votes. Individual votes can sometimes be significant punctuating events in a narrative about the politician's position evolving over time. Andrevan@ 02:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the sourcing or the bias in any sourcing. That is again a red herring. The problem is that WP editors are elevating the importance of any one vote when they include that vote and not the tens or hundreds or thousands of other votes the person has made. To take, for example, MJT voting no on expanding NATO, a vote of absolutely no consequence for expanding NATO, (it was a freaking House Resolution expressing support, the House doesnt get a vote on expanding NATO, that ends with ratification by the Senate of an ascension treaty), there is similar coverage to her vote on Access to Baby Formula Act, Honoring our Pact Act and so on. What you should be including are articles that discuss how her votes show her views and provide some analysis, like this or this. Write about how she has opposed aid to Ukraine and has consistently voted against it, not she voted no on this one vote that she doesnt even get an actual vote in. nableezy - 16:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

A single sentence on those votes would not be a problem, though I'll note that the latter one is a local news source and not as strong as the multiple sources for this one. I wouldn't object to developing this into a section on her larger views on NATO, but the possibility of expanding it in that direction isn't really an argument for removal. --Aquillion (talk) 23:20, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan, I'll start by saying I am sympathetic to your position that if a BLP already discusses a lot of related content (MTG and Ukraine) then it's easier to say her vote here is DUE based on being part of a pattern. In reviewing The Hill I see it mentions how these people voted on several bills but I don't see that it makes any point beyond that. Basically the source article is a list in text format. So my question is how would we decide this content is DUE in MTG's article but not in say Dan Bishop's article? I'm asking for a generalized guideline rather than something specific for this instance since this is something that happens quite a bit. I also appreciate the thoughtful engagement you've been offering. Springee (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not proposing anything new other than the standard Misplaced Pages policy on this. As I said, if there are sufficient reliable sources, and it relates to a position, activity, or notable aspect of the person, it can be included. The sources tell it. I'm not proposing to include all of this, maybe a couple sentences worth: Gaetz, Greene, and Boebert are among GOP members who repeatedly voted against US military and humanitarian support to Ukraine. In May, Massie and Greene voted “no” on three bills connected to the invasion. One compelled foreign entities and individuals under U.S. authority to comply with sanctions on Russia and Belarus. Another called for making it U.S. policy to bar Russian officials from participating in meetings and activities in the Group of 20 and other financial institutions. The third would forbid the Treasury secretary from taking part in transactions related to the exchange of special drawing rights that Russia or Belarus possesses. Marjorie Taylor Greene told to stop ‘repeating Putin’s propaganda’ after she speaks out against Ukraine aid. Only two Democrats did not vote for the legislation at all but 57 Republicans, including Ms Greene, voted against it. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Northwest Georgia was among 10 Republicans this past week who voted against a House bill calling on the Biden administration to speed up supplies of military equipment to Ukraine as the nation continues to defend itself against Russia's invasion. Proponents of the measure spoke out on the House floor against Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion. Greene posted on Twitter last month that it was "Nazi militias" in Ukraine that were engaging in torture and that a U.S. aid package would further that. "We should not spend billions of Americans' hard-earned tax dollars on lethal aid to be given to possible Nazi militias that are torturing innocent people, especially children and women. It's not pro-Putin to be against this. It's pro-torture and evil to stay silent/censor it." In another tweet on March 15, Greene said, "Congress voted to fund Ukraine with $13.6 billion in lethal aid. How much U.S. taxpayer cash will end up in the hands of the neo-Nazis in Ukraine? "And to top it all off, NATO has been supplying the neo-Nazis in Ukraine with powerful weapons and extensive training in how to use them. What the hell is going with these #NATONAZIS?" This one is a WSJ op-ed WP:RSOPINION that could be attributed to the editorial board of WSJ, hardly a liberal bastion She speaks to a group cheering white identity and Vladimir Putin. Andrevan@ 23:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

As a general group question, if an example like this comes up where an article says "This is a bill and here is what the bill is about. Here are the people who voted for/against" how would we decide if this content is DUE (or BALANCEASPECTS which is what we normally mean when we say DUE)? The discussion above is long but I'm not sure we have any better guidance than when we started and this discussion seems far less clear vs the one from earlier this year. Springee (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

What seems to be missed in this discussion of DUE/UNDUE and BALANCEASPECTS is that significant minority information, provided it appears in a number of sources, may still be included just with reduced WEIGHT. I don't understand the BLP basis for completely excluding votes. There is no BLP argument that I have heard. BALANCEASPECTS is just that: include them in proportion, really FRINGEy FRINGE not at all, but things that appear in a minority of sources will still appear with proper attribution a minority of the time. It seems that some editors really want to trim down these articles so that anything that would possibly hurt the subjects' feelings should be removed. That is not what BLP is for. BLP is for a bunch of things, including incendiary name-calling or libel or allegations of crimes or stuff like that. These are just the politicians' VOTES. Andrevan@ 00:08, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Remember that UNDUE is about viewpoints, not factual information. Vote tallies are factual and thus not subject to UNDUE, but do fall under NOT (specifically IINFO -we have routinely never include the full vote lists for any bill). When it comes to viewpoints though - discussions about how a lawmaker voted, then we can consider what number of sources go into that specific aspect. Masem (t) 00:16, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:IINFO does NOT refer to in-context description of the VOTES of the UNITED STATES CONGRESS. It's about adding stuff like song lyrics. There is nothing indiscriminate about this info. As you pointed out, it was very discriminate. It was only added to people who voted against it. Then it was reverted, and I reverted back on only 2 pages. MTG, and JVD. Andrevan@ 00:20, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Don't read the examples at NOT#IINFO as the only types of material that are considered indiscriminate. Full Congressional vote records can be said to fall under NOTSTATS. And I'm not saying the readdition to two pages was a problem. Just that we do not add full voting records on articles, period. Masem (t) 00:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Nobody is proposing to add full voting records, as in a pile of tabular data about voting, nobody has added that or proposed adding it. Reposting my original comment to the thread: A random list of random votes that no sources care about, or issues that are pro forma or very minor, like so-and-so voted for the post office to be named after Ben Franklin, I agree, is undue and unimportant. When it's a significant vote on a significant issue that the politician has spoken on, and given previous press releases or interviews on, or is attacked/praised in the press for taking a certain stance or a position, and the vote goes toward other related content in the article about that issue, it should be kept. Andrevan@ 00:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I think to somewhat answer my earlier question I would propose a two part question to establish if this material should be included. Basically, does the BLP have logical context and does the source provide mating content to fit that context beyond just "X voted this way". After reading your various comments I think the other material in the article matters. Is this something that generally fits in or does it come across as out of the blue. In the MTG article a vote related to NATO (even though this vote was symbolic vs functional) can be seen in context of her other NATO comments. That isn't true for some of the other BLPs where this same material was added. Those were out of the blue. My second part looks at the RS itself. Does it say anything about the person and the vote other than the one cast a particular vote in the other? The RS (The Hill ) in this case didn't tie these votes to MTG's stance on NATO, Ukraine etc. Thus I would say The Hill is not sufficient to add this content to any BLP because it only says how the person voted not why a vote for or against would be notable. However, if The Hill said, members opposed due to the aparent support of Ukraine then we would have that context within the RS that would connect with the context in the MTG article and the context should be carried over from The Hill. However, in the case of the BLPs that have no other context then we shouldn't add it even though the RS may have some level of context. Of course, if the RS has strong linkage (statements and evidence that MTG consistently votes one way on a big issue) then both the how they voted and why the votes can come from a single article. Masem mentioned a BLP concern as this may be targeted shaming by only mentioning "those who didn't support the Obvious Good is Obviously Good Act (OGOGA)". I have seen examples of that. However, I'm not sure that's a BLP issue since how a person voted on the record is a public record. The shame part only comes about when we collect those people into a group. I can see an argument that "One of # who voted against the OGOGA" suggests they are part of an outlier group. Removing the "one of #" would avoid that. Springee (talk) 02:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The Hill does not have to establish MTG's position on NATO or Russia-Ukraine policy if another source has established that information. If she states a position on something, then adding her related votes is proper and encylopedic. The source citing the vote, does not need to also explain the vote, if another source explains her position that preceded or followed the vote itself, provided the vote and the position are closely related, i.e. pertain to the same-named issue or topic. Andrevan@ 02:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• From WP:VNOT: While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.

so… the next question is: Does mentioning the vote “improve the BLP article” or not? Personally, I don’t think it does, so I would ask those who want to mention the vote to explain how and why it improves the article. What is the point of mentioning it? Blueboar (talk) 12:17, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

This is the NPOV noticeboard. If we all agree there's no issue on NPOV here, we can discuss how to improve the article on the article talk page. Andrevan@ 13:34, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

This discussion feels like it's been going around in circles. The edit is problematic on both NPOV and SYNTH fronts: the former, because the edit places undue emphasis on a single vote that—in light of her stated positions—isn't particularly remarkable, even if morally egregious; the latter, because it makes a novel connection between her stated positions and her votes. I don't think BLP really matters here, besides that it asks for us to exercise extra caution with NPOV. I'd suggest a simple RfC on the subject, if this discussion + talk page discussion doesn't end up with a clear consensus after a couple weeks. Ovinus (talk) 17:17, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree on your SYNTH and NPOV argument as stated above. "Morally egregious" is entirely irrelevant, nobody has commented on the morality. It is not novel to have a connection, through juxtaposition, not a conclusion, between a stated position and a vote. Andrevan@ 17:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Ovinus, I agree with your points. I'm not sure a RfC is the right answer here. While I personally don't agree with the MTG addition, I don't see it as egregious or some sort of BLP concern thus the need to revert is weak. Instead, I'm looking for something people can refer to when we see similar mass edits in the future. Springee (talk) 18:46, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Ye, this one edit is not a big deal and reasonable people will disagree (as we see). That makes more sense; sorry for focusing on the MTG article so much. It's a good broader question and I don't really know until I look at some more examples. And with regards to the morality, I should have said controversiality, because controversial/contentious stuff is certainly more of a concern for NPOV. For example, idk, "Representative John Doe expressed early support for and voted aye on the Civil Rights Act of 1964." Not as big of a concern in terms of NPOV, while SYNTH is still a reasonable question if applicable (ofc historical sources would likely combine them and do the synthesis for us). Ovinus (talk) 20:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• Just tossing this out… I’m thinking that highlighting the things a politician voted “for” will strike the reader as being more “neutral” than highlighting the things that same politician voted “against” will. Blueboar (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  There's no reason why it should be that way. If covered in appropriate sources, a vote for, against, or an abstention/present vote, could be notable. For example I think Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins voted present or abstained on a few Supreme Court nominations and it was unusual, and written about. Andrevan@ 21:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:Pseudoscience and Astrology

Editors are invited to comment at the following RfC: Talk:Astrology#RfC about short description.DolyaIskrina (talk) 01:15, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It's a Bad RFC as it was apparently a repeat/re-litigation of an earlier RFC. 193.233.171.17 (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The previous RFC was wrongly decided anyway, should have been closes as no consensus. 5.151.22.143 (talk) 10:24, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Article titled Female (gender)

Comments are requested at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Female (gender). Crossroads 01:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

RfC on the "Implications for polygamy legalization" section of the Respect for Marriage Act article

There is currently an RfC on the "Implications for polygamy legalization" section at Talk:Respect for Marriage Act#RfC concerning polygamy.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

RFC closed. Doug Weller talk 17:25, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Does inclusion or exclusion of wikilink make sentence non-neutral?

At Talk:2021 United States Capitol attack, there’s discussion about this proposed sentence: “It was the most violent of the attacks on the U.S. Capitol since the Burning of Washington in 1814." The question is whether/how the first wikilink affects the neutrality of the sentence, and whether that first wikilink should therefore be included or excluded.

I’d prefer to keep the discussion centralized there, but would appreciate if editors here would please assess the situation and comment over there at article talk. Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:46, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

P.S. User:SPECIFICO objected to starting a discussion here, because it would “fragment” our discussion at article talk. That’s why I requested that editors at this noticeboard come visit article talk, instead of discussing it here (unfortunately no one has done so). Generally speaking, do I need consensus at article talk to get a discussion going here? Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Grooming conspiracy theory

Hello all, I have a concern about the article by Horse Eye's Back that I came across on NPP: Grooming conspiracy theory. I tagged it with POV and posted a message on the editor's talk page. The editor came back to the article and removed the tag without addressing the issues raised - edit summary "condition #3". I reapplied the tag and attempted to start discussion. For those who do not want to read the links this was my concern: Hello, I reviewed the article and I have some thoughts. The article uses the word conspiracy 15 times including in the title. 2 sources of the 7 you provided use the word conspiracy in direct relation to grooming. 2 others use the word to describe q-anon and other right wing groups. One reference to use the word in relation to grooming is Global News, another is the Intelligencer. It seems like a WP:POVPUSH to use the word both in the title and 14 other times in the article. It is entirely possible that I am incorrect in my assessment so I am bringing this here. Thanks in advance. Bruxton (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

See Template:POV: "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor." If you don't follow the template usage notes, expect it to be removed. TFD (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

"Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page", as you did not start any discussion, ther is no reason to have a tag, that is supposed to be linked to it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces and Slatersteven: Hello and thank you for the message. I did not do this as a "drive-by". I tagged this while on NPP after reviewing the article. I also started a talk page discussion on the editor's talk page. Bruxton (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Great, the discussion is meant to be on the articles talk page. Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Apologies. I apologize for bringing this here and for not following the correct steps to voice my concern. Slatersteven has removed the tag which means I must have been incorrect in my assessment so I will move on. Bruxton (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

NO, I removed it as you did not follow the correct procedure, the conversation has to be (as it is where the link takes you) on the articles talk page, make your case there. Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: If I place a tag there I am edit warring - I placed the tag there twice in 24 hours. I have to move on now. You have far more experience on the project than I do - it was my first time using the tag with the curation tool. I will leave this to another reviewer. Bruxton (talk) 15:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Edit waring is 3 reverts. You reverted once. Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

You can still outline your POV concerns on the article talk page without adding a template. TFD (talk) 15:35, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Regardless of the notification issues, the article likely would be better if placed on the Anti-LGBT rhetoric page, under a section called "Grooming accusations". I do think it seems to early to call it a conspiracy theorh on its own but when tied to the so-called "Gay agenda" (which is well covered on that page), it can be discussed in depth with having to call it a conspiracy theory. Masem (t) 15:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Ovinus (talk) 16:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• Template:POV removal condition #3: "In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

wp:npov and wp:n are not the same thing. If it is notable it has a stand-alone article, if it is not then NPOV is irrelevant wp:afd it or ask for merge. Slatersteven (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:N as a guideline lets policy override when a standalone article is appropriate. Eg: this is the reason we try to avoid "Criticism of..." pages unless that itself is notable. Here, an article that can only present a biased take on what may be notable would be better as part if a larger article that is more comprehensive to cover that broader topic neutrally, so that the implicit bias in this topic is minimized.--Masem (t) 18:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

What bias? I wrote a beautifully neutral article and just to be clear my bias is American conservative. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Part of the bias is inherit in the topic: the major sources simply aren't going to give this a shred of credence so all the coverage appears to be attacking the idea instead of debating it (and proving it wrong via that debate. But also as the OP said, pushing that thus is a conspiracy theory from only a few sources that day that is cherry picking. It absolutely is an anti LGBT rhetoric, conspiracy theory or nit, so better in that other arti ke, where there is the debate and prove against the broader anti LGBT stance. Masem (t) 18:35, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Vox, Slate, The Independent, ABC, Global News (Canada) etc are all major sources. We don't care whether a source attacks, defends, or debates a subject, all we care about is that they give it in-depth coverage. Even if we cut it down to only those sources which explicitly call it a conspiracy theory it would still be WP:GNG. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The GNG does not require an article to be created on a notable topic, only creates the allowance for that. I am just saying that the Anti LGBT rhetoric page is a much more comprehensive article to include this and avoid the too soon presumption it is a conspiracy theory. Masem (t) 19:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

An article *has* been created on the topic, this is a NPOV discussion not a N or AfD discussion. Unless you have a source which says that its "too soon" to call it a conspiracy theory (as multiple WP:RS do) then NPOV is clearly to call it a conspiracy theory. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

RECENTISM says its too soon to call this conspiracy theory. And the NPOV aspect is that as standalone from the rhetoric page, it fails to give a comprehensive and neutral overview of the past history of LGBT and claimed indoctrination. Putting the content in the rhetoric article helps to "dilute" the issues since the bulk of that article is a neutral approach to the overall topic. Masem (t) 19:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

So if its not a conspiracy theory what is it and what sources can you provide which support that characterization? Surely you aren't saying that these accusations leveled against the lGBTQ community and its allies are true or possibly true? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

As Masem states above, this would be better merged with the Anti-LGBT rhetoric page. It is nonsensical to suggest that there is a single coherent 'conspiracy theory' to build an article around. Such prejudices have been central to anti-gay rhetoric for centuries. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

We have mainstream WP:RS like Vox being "nonsensical" then, are you suggesting that we re-evaluate their reliability? Vox: "The second irony is that the notion of “grooming” — slowly conditioning someone over time to accept a belief or a state of being that could harm them — arguably applies to the grooming conspiracy theory itself." Now that doesn't mean we can't cover it on the Anti-LGBT rhetoric page, but its not nonsensical. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

From Vox: Framing homosexuality as a wicked specter and queer people as pedophiles is one of the oldest narratives in the homophobic playbook.... Same old same old. Not new. Doesn't need a new article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Vox does appear to treat them as separate (old and new), "The new pedophile conspiracy rhetoric is essentially the same as all the old pedophile conspiracy rhetoric, but with an added layer of wrongness." acknowledging that there is a unique "groomer" conspiracy that emerged in 2020-2021 does not invalidate previous homophobic conspiracies. Much the opposite in fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Invalidate what? I never said anything about invalidation. If I could make head or tail of what you have just written, I'd try to respond. Meanwhile, can someone please explain why the new article uses the term 'conspiracy theory' in the singular? Is it about one specific theory? And if it is, what specifically marks it out as needing a separate article? And why doesn't the title tell readers which of the many such theories it is, rather than implying that it is the only one? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

If thats what WP:RS said we would do that, I made the page because the topic received substantial in-depth coverage in WP:RS. I am not aware of previous Grooming conspiracy theories (similar ones yes, but none that used the "groomer" rhetoric), if theres significant coverage of course they should have their own pages! When those pages exist we can talk about changing the name so as not to confuse readers, to do so now when they don't exist feels like putting the cart before the horse. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The New grooming rhetoric, as I read from the sources, is another spin on the claim that LGBT are indictoring kids. It users to be riding on the coattails of new legislation like Florida's "don't say gay" law in which parents are to have full control of how their kid learns to avoid this. It is not a wholly new idea but just spun a different way. It thus is better at that other page. Masem (t) 18:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:RS actually frame it as the opposite of that, they frame it as legislation riding on the coattails of the conspiracy theory. If you have sources that frame the realtionship the other way I'd love to read them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Also yes it is about one specific theory, the one that emerged in 2020-2021 cheer-led by Libs of TikTok and the rest of the American alt-right (unfortunately like QAnon before it its going mainstream). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

If that is what it is about, it needs a title that says so. Explicitly. Right now. Misplaced Pages shouldn't be implying that such prejudice is new, or that it is confined to US political discourse - that is just plain offensive. The US is not the centre of the universe... AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

What in the article implies that this prejudice is new or confined to US political discourse? Have you actually looked at Grooming conspiracy theory? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I've looked at it. The article is crap. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:52, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Crap? Yep thats the one, guess you have looked at it. Now what in the article implies that this prejudice is new or confined to US political discourse and what sources do you know of that we could use to alleviate these supposed implication? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The new article is entirely unnecessary. 'Alleviation' merely requires that any relevant content be added instead to the Anti-LGBT rhetoric page where it belongs, putting it in its proper context. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Merging wouldn't appear to address either of the issues you raised. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The new article is entirely unnecessary, then wouldn't an AfD be more worthwhile than line after line of you complaining about the article being "unnecessary", "crap", and so on? ValarianB (talk) 19:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

AFD is not for merge which is clearly the desired result. Masem (t) 19:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

There isn't actually much to merge, when you eliminate the unsourced claims, and the obvious WP:OR. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced claims and obvious OR? Do tell! Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

In my experience Merge is a very common outcome of AfD. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

An AFD can result in a merge, but as per the PEREN proposal, AFD is only when the nominator seeks deletion. Nominatibg a merge at AFD is an improper use of that. Masem (t) 19:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I though PEREN was only for proposals which have been repeatedly *rejected* by the community? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Plus there is not even an allegation of a "conspiracy". North8000 (talk) 18:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

There isn't?

• NPR says "The "grooming" smear often expands to include accusations of pedophilia and sex trafficking — conspiracy theories spawned by far-right extremists such as QAnon supporters, propagated widely through social media and right-wing channels and spreading through mainstream conservative thought.
• FiveThirtyEight says "“Grooming” is a term that neatly draws together both modern conspiracy theories and old homophobic stereotypes, while comfortably shielding itself under the guise of protecting children. Who, after all, can argue against the safety of kids? But by adopting this language to bolster their latest political pursuits, the right is both giving a nod to fringe conspiracy theorists and using an age-old tactic to dismantle LGBTQ rights."
• Salon says "So in the past month, there's been a rapid escalation of conspiracy theories falsely accusing Democrats of being somehow pro-pedophilia. ... Soon, a generalized accusation that Democrats and even companies that are mildly pro-LGBTQ want to "groom" children spread across Fox News." EvergreenFir (talk) 19:17, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Those do not explicitly call grooming a conspiracy theory, only that it is associated with othe theories. Masem (t) 19:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This is sufficient to call it a "conspiracy theory." Andrevan@ 19:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

'Theories', plural. Not a single theory - just more homophobic rhetoric. We already have an article on such matters. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Are you proposing a name change to "Grooming conspiracy theories"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

No. I am proposing that what little properly-sourced and relevant content there is goes into the article on the topic we already have. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

We have an article on grooming conspiracy theories or anti-LGBTQ conspiracy theories? I thought we just had an article on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric. We have Category: LGBT-related conspiracy theories, but I'm not seeing an article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not taking a position on whether there is largely 1 cohesive conspiracy theory, or many related theories, or several unrelated theories that are distinct, either way though I think there's sufficient sourcing here to talk about the idea of "grooming conspiracy theory/ies" in general, I am not well-versed enough to say how many there are. Andrevan@ 20:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The main sources, by journalists Aja Romano and James Kirchick, probably fall under News organizations: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Romano has a BA in voice and opera, while Kirchick has a BA from Yale. Their determination about what is or is not conspiracy theory is no better than the average Misplaced Pages editor. TFD (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thy don't appear to be marked as "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces" so the relevant part of WP:NEWSORG is "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors)" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

We have to keep in mind that many web-based news sites like Vox do not clearly distinguish between fact and opinion, they use a loose combination of opinion mixed with facts, so one has to be careful to assume all such material stated is facts. For Vox, it is better to attribute any statements to them - not that this can't be used to source the grooming stuff, just that it can't be taken as pure fact. Masem (t) 14:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Consensus is that Vox is generally reliable, why are you suggesting that they be treated as if consensus is additional considerations apply without there being such a consensus? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:YESPOV, we have to be fully aware of commentary and analysis that may be intermixed with simple factual reporting, and make sure we present that information with attribution. Vox's journalism style is nearly always this mix of facts and commentary. It doesn't make them unreliable, but we just have to be fully aware when they switch from facts to analysis. (Eg I have used Vox articles on discussions of Supreme Court decisions and they are usually "straight-faced" in reporting on the facts of the case and then make at least a clear inter-article switch to analysis which I then use with attribution).

What policy does not say is that we must accept what RSes publish as "news reporting" as always being objective, non-subjective treatment of facts. Masem (t) 15:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It's analysis rather than news reporting. First, all the facts in Romano's article are sourced to other articles. There is no original news reporting. Instead, she analyzes facts to come to a conclusion, as suggested in the article's title, "The right’s moral panic over “grooming” invokes age-old homophobia: “Groomer” accusations against liberals and the LGBTQ community are recycled Satanic Panic."

She provides a thesis statement in the first paragraph: "The term — which describes the actions an adult takes to make a child vulnerable to sexual abuse — is taking on a conspiracy-theory tone as conservatives use it to imply that the LGBTQ community, their allies, and liberals more generally are pedophiles or pedophile-enablers." That's not sourced to experts, but is her own personal opinion.

Because Romano is not an expert - she has a BA in voice and opera and is an "internet culture reporter" - we cannot treat her conclusions as facts and cannot say they have weight for inclusion. That's why analysis articles by non-experts are not considered reliable sources.

TFD (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Reliability is a very low bar. It is generally met just by being "published". Outside of BLP, MEDRS, "exceptional claims", and self-published sources, there is no author expertise litmus test. What expertise does effect is due weight. Given that the topic is presumed notable, what are the sources on the topic most deserving of due weight? Sennalen (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

There is a policy, which I mentioned, News organizations, which is about the reliability of articles published in news media: "analysis rarely reliable for statements of fact." The only exception I have found is where it is written by an expert, which is allowed per Self-published sources.

Expertise incidentally does not effect due weight, because weight requires the representation of all significant viewpoints "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." That an expert believes something is only significant if it has attracted the attention in the body of reliable sources, not just an isolated paper.

TFD (talk) 18:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you are reading NEWSORG correctly. The passage in question reads:

Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.

I believe that "editorial" is the key words there - commentary and opinion published by news organizations may all kn fact be "editorial" (whether by editors or in op-eds), but it is certainly not the case that all "analysis" published by a newsorg is "rarely reliable for statements of fact". Investigative reporting, for example, will often combine primary reporting with secondary analysis, and I have seen no consensus on wiki that such reporting is generally unreliable. In my experience, editors only make that argument when they are striving to exclude a specific source. Newimpartial (talk) 19:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The salient feature is not the writer's credentials, but whether or not the publisher vets and stands behind the work. If the publisher has a hands-off attitude, the work becomes more like a self-published source, and the author's expertise comes into play. Sennalen (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

How do you fact check the conclusions reached in an analysis? We already agree that the actual facts in Romano's essay are sourced to (presumably rs) news media, but the analysis is not. TFD (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

If they did not mean to include analysis, then it would not be included. News analysis is a clear concept, it is defined as "An article written to inform readers about recent events. The author reports and attempts to deepen understanding of recent events—for example, by providing background information and other kinds of additional context." (CSUSM Library) It is not original reporting and includes the writer's opinions or "analysis." That's why it fails rs unless written by an expert. The facts have already been reported and the analysis is by a non-expert. That btw is why opinion pieces are also non-rs unless written by an expert. Or forget policy and think about common sense. Why would anyone rely on the analysis of an amateur when writing an article? TFD (talk) 00:35, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

"Grooming" has become kind of a far-right meme over the last few years. It's not very different from the old narratives, but it's more politics-via-morality than morality-via-politics (at least that's my read). It's not really a "conspiracy theory" as much as a bigoted fictional scaremongering narrative that makes its way into many conspiracy theories as well straightforward (as opposed to conspiratorial) hate speech. You could say that "LGBT+ democrats are using their power over school systems to groom our children" is a conspiracy theory, but "grooming" in general isn't, by itself. My $0.02 would be that while this isn't a conspiracy theory, it could be reframed to spin out the very real, and ever-expanding subject of, as the current anti-LGBT rhetoric page puts it, "Conflation with child abuse". I'd say that with the current "grooming" meme, it would certainly meet GNG and merits more coverage than the short section it gets at the rhetoric page. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Wrong doing usually does not involve a conspiracy, and so claims of a conspiracy are generally considered to be implausible. And so a common pejorative for claims of wrong doing is imply that the claimant is also making a claim of a conspiracy behind the alleged wrong doing, I.E changing it to a implausible straw-man variant of what they actually alleged. In short, in most cases, "conspiracy" is a false pejorative. So unless there are actual claims of a conspiracy, we should not be repeating a false pejorative in the title (which in this case is a statement in the voice of Misplaced Pages), even if others said it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The term "conspiracy theory" doesn't always have to be an actual conspiracy, it's a general term for many fringe theories that might not have an actual conspiracy, but involve some big secret that is a counterfactual from our consensus reality. Some conspiracy theories have turned out later to be true, like the info revealed by Edward Snowden, Reality Winner, Chelsea Manning, or the Watergate conspiracy as revealed by W. Mark Felt to Woodstein. So it's not always pejorative although it can be. It also isn't always a conspiracy, just a crazy theory that is commonly called that, similar to how every scandal gets a -gate suffix despite not being related to the Watergate at all. So if enough WP:RS call it a conspiracy theory/theorist (like Marjorie Taylor Greene), we can too. Andrevan@ 20:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not up to us to decide when or how to use "conspiracy" per se. Rather, it's RS that do that and we need to make sure our content matches those RS. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, those who raged over Barack Obama's birth certificate did not believe and did not allege that a global-Marxist conglomerate conspired to smuggle a black child out of Kenya and into Hawaii in 1961 to establish residency in hopes he would someday be President. and yet we have Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. "Conspiracy theory" is really just shorthand for "what you believe is actually batshit insane", it does not have to mean that people literally gathered and conspired to form a false narrative. 21:13, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

In general, you should never take the wording of a Misplaced Pages title, or Misplaced Pages itself, as a complete view of reality. Misplaced Pages should not shape culture, or language, it should only reflect it. Wikipedians collectively do seem to be somewhat more fond of the word 'conspiracy' than the general public. Oh well. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

This is true of all things, one who was too literally minded and sat down to read "Hairy Potter" might be shocked to find that the subject of the novel is not in fact a maker of ceramic wares with a bear-like physique. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Respect for Marriage Act / Polygamy, & WP:AN

There is currently a discussion which you might want to participate in at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Epiphyllumlover additions of polygamist information, which especially concerns the Respect for Marriage Act and articles relating to it.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Use of PFM-1 mines in Russo-Ukrainian War

PFM-1 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Should this article, about a controversial land mine, mention allegations of use in the ongoing war in Ukraine? Ukraine has alleged use by Russia and vice versa. There's some question about the reliability of some sources involved, but I see this mainly as an NPOV matter. More eyes would be appreciated. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Is an unsubstantiated commentary article WP:DUE for History section

Is that commentary article WP:DUE ? Saikia isn't known to have done any serious research on Boro history and culture. Can his commentary article without deeper insight be used to write the Boro_people#History section?

• (Edit) The article is suitable for the colonial era but i believe unsubstantiated claims related to pre-colonial history is WP:UNDUE. So I asked the question.
• (Edit) To be specific, I believe that unsubstantiated claims like "The Bodos were continuously, albeit slowly, on the move for a long period. This practice was fairly true for most communities who resisted any entry into the formal state-led fiscal system whether it was the Mughal, Koch and Ahom rulers or the British colonial government." (Saikia 2012:17) is very much undue because it imposes an imaginary history for a period of almost 600 years.

Northeast heritage (talk) 11:04, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

How do you know he did not do "serious research on Boro history and culture"? Slatersteven (talk) 11:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Slatersteven: , This is his profile where i couldn't find any publication related to Boro history and culture. This commentary article simply tries to understand regional violence on the basis of agrarian practices with unsubstantiated historical narrative. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Also Sarma(2014:70) pointed out - A concerted effort to knowing the individual histories of the various groups of the Bodo-Kachari communities have not come into sight, at least to the knowledge of the present author. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Arupjyoti Saikia is a well known and much published historian, who is a professor in Indian Institute of Technology, Guwahati. He has worked extensively on peasants and ecology, and has published extensively on the in the subject, that includes a book too, published by Routledge India. The reason Northeast heritage is objecting to him here is because he has challenged the use of this author in Boro_people#History. His objections there have been addressed by Austronesier (e.g. ). The source in question is The Historical Geography of Assam Violence, EPW 47(41). This topic is probably more/also appropriate in WP:RS. Chaipau (talk) 12:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

No, I didn't challenge the use of this author and my early objection/edit has nothing to do with this post. This post is a question if the EPW commentary article is WP:DUE because that article is nothing more than 4-page essay without substantiating the pre-colonial historical narrative. Article is very simple but its claims direct a very simplistic and imaginary history. So, I am seeking attention from the WP community. Northeast heritage (talk) 13:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You are aware that people can do intensive study, and still only publish one book? What evidence (not your own wp:or do you have he has not studied this topic? Slatersteven (talk) 13:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Even if He did intensive study but He didn't substantiate his claims so i said Saikia isn't known to have done any serious research on Boro history and culture. So, Does his essay-type article fall under WP:DUE? Northeast heritage (talk) 13:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

There are many good sources but these only slightly touch Boros history. From these sources i can add many facts which will conflict the imaginary history given in that EPW article. Northeast heritage (talk) 14:10, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The claims made by Saikia are all widely accepted in scholarship since they are non-sectarian, non-nationalistic types. Sure, those pushing nationalistic narratives are uncomfortable with historians such as Saikia, as you have yourself demonstrated with this thread. The only problem with these nationalistic narratives are cross claims that lead to each narrative trying to negate the others. We have seen the effort in articles such as Rajbanshi, Koch dynasty, Dimasa kingdom, and others where these nationalistic narratives were being foisted. This is not what Misplaced Pages should be doing---promoting nationalistic narratives. There should be no such criterion as made out here---that Saikia should have worked on the history of Boro culture---for his work to be considered relevant. We are dealing with history here before the term "Bodo" was coined by a colonial officer (19th century) and before the Boro identity emerged as a political entity (early 20th century). The Boro nationalistic narratives are from even later times, and they do what most nationalistic narratives do---project themselves into the past. These narratives are a bane of Misplaced Pages since they lead to unending edit warring, POV pushing and such as we have witnessed. Pinging Fylindfotberserk, Abecedare, Bbb23 for visibility. Chaipau (talk) 15:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The article is suitable for colonial era but you've used to push its claim upto Kamarupa kingdom. So, I doubt if this article can be used the way you are using. Northeast heritage (talk) 17:01, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be questioning both the author and reviewers here. Saikia mentions Nathan (1936) here (cited) which is an account from "1936): Baharistan-I-Ghaybi (A Histor of the Mughal Wars in Assam, Cooch Behar, Ben- gal, Bihar and Orissa during the Reign of Jahangir and Shah Jahan". The author says, and it is noted in the citation "Over the second millennium of our common era, the process for consolidation of these habitats began." which is after the fall of Kamarupa. We also know that the first mention of ethnic groups come from Tabaqat-i-Nasiri, by Mihraj us-Siraj, composed and compiled c. 1250. Chaipau (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

This claim "The Bodos were continuously, albeit slowly, on the move for a long period. This practice was fairly true for most communities who resisted any entry into the formal state-led fiscal system whether it was the Mughal, Koch and Ahom rulers or the British colonial government." is unsubstantiated historical claims related to almost 600 years. This claim is undoubtedly not WP:DUE. This claim impose a imaginary history for period of 600 years. Northeast heritage (talk) 17:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Why is it "undoubtedly not WP:DUE"? Chaipau (talk) 18:37, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

@Chaipau: I wrote multiple times that the claim is unsubstantiated and it impose an imaginary history. If Boro history can't be pushed beyond colonial-era with current understanding of the History of Assam, Keep it simple, No need to add Saikia's unsubstantiated claims. If you agree, No more discussion is required and thread can be closed. Northeast heritage (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

And please don't mix up nationalistic issues everywhere. This is a simple question about unsubstantiated claims. As far as i can remember, I don't start editing controversial topics with weak source. If you have seen problem in my editing, please do report me at WP:ANI, i will accept my mistakes. And please don't call me nationalistic POV-pusher. Your comment on the community and your edits actually say something. Northeast heritage (talk) 17:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You should be specific about what text is proposed that is sourced to this article. Also, what is being questioned as due: are they the facts that the author presents or his opinions? TFD (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Opinions about cause of conflicts in modern times. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:23, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Which specific comments are those in the article? Chaipau (talk) 16:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

This article should be used for colonial era. But it is used to claim pre-colonial history which is problematic. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

@Northeast heritage: You're putting the cart before the horse, you never established that the article in question is actually commentary which needed to be the very first thing you did. Please do so now. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

EPW has different categories of articles. The article is commentary-type which is written on top of every page. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:34, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The "commentary" section is not just a commentary in the literal sense of the term. It is a regular article that undergoes the regular review process. And it is 2000-3000 words long on "Short, analytical articles on topical and contemporary, social, economic and political developments will be considered for this section." (https://www.epw.in/notes-contributors.html). Chaipau (talk) 16:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere, that sounds like what we'd call analysis more than commentary but we treat them similarly. With that in mind I'd say its due, but it should be attributed. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Very well. Thank you. I will be very busy for next few months. So, This thread can be closed. Northeast heritage (talk) 20:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Thank you! It is cited here. Chaipau (talk) 01:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Christianization of the Roman Empire as diffusion of innovation

There is no dispute here, but I am looking for some help. This is a sub-article. The parent article is broad, and includes this topic as one of several short sections, but as a sub-article, this one is quite detailed. It is a complicated joint-topic, yet it is all about a single POV. That might be okay going by this: which says articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, and the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally.... This is definitely a subject that represents a point of view. I have a commitment to neutrality on WP, so I am feeling the need for input from others. Please comment on the neutrality of this presentation of an acknowledged POV, and please, if you can, make concrete suggestions for improvement. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Todd Mason

Todd Mason (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I'm in a bit of an editing dispute with a new editor around the Todd Mason page. Their original series of edits here added a fair number of very poor sources and what to me was pretty clear promotional text - "Todd is a sought-after live broadcast director for a wide range of programming" as an easy example. Rather than revert everything, I did a quick cleanup pass and added an {{advert}} tag. We've gone back and forth over the past couple of days over sources, material and the advert tag. I'd like for some outside eyes to do a review on this. The article is not in the best of shape, with the new Career section basically duplicating existing sections, but that's a copy-edit thing. The article in my last reverted version still feels promotional with some questionable sourced strong claims, name-dropping, and a promotional tone in the new career section. I put some of my concerns at Talk:Todd_Mason#Advertising_tag. The other editor has denied a WP:PAID relationship, but it feels like a WP:COI at best. More eyes and thoughts would be appreciated. Ravensfire (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I noticed this when the advert tag was removed the other day. I reinstated it as the article contains lots of examples of WP:PEACOCK, such as stating that Todd Mason first worked "where the longest-running Christian program in America is produced" or listing a long list of companies his company has worked with. I've attempted to clean up a few egregious examples of this but there's still more to fix. Jns4eva (talk) 07:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

There's clear evidence of paid creation and further paid contributions. I've tagged it as such. I'm also going through the sourcing, and so far it's extremely weak. Valereee (talk) 13:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Did a source assessment: Talk:Todd Mason#Notability and now have AfD'd. Valereee (talk) 18:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Advertisement

Heavily promotional verbiage for an electric vehicle is here in case anyone is interested in cleaning it up. I should attend to other things instead. Biosthmors (talk) 00:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

It's also very close paraphrasing, which should be looked at. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Splitting the Wall Street Journal editorial board content off from the parent article

I think this is something that could use some more eyes. Horse Eye's Back has made a BOLD choice to split the section of the Wall Street Journal article related to it's editorial board off from the parent article. I'm not sure I agree with this move and I don't recall any prior discussion. I think it would be helpful to have a few more eyes on the topic (discussion here ). Springee (talk) 01:23, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I think you got WP:N and WP:NPOV confused, this isn't the place to discuss notability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not really a notability issue since the WSJ is clearly notable. I wasn't sure of the best place to ask for input but since there is a possibility for a POVFork this is a good place for that concern. Note that this is a concern of mine. Currently the new article is largely a copy from the parent. Springee (talk) 01:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Whats the POVfork concern? The new article contains thousands of bytes of unique content. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

It does feel like a purposely done split to add POV stances related to the editorial board, which is against NPOV policy. Its piecemealing multiple smaller complaints to created a larger criticism section, which we're not supposed to be doing. There's a few para in the history section that do describe the editorial board's problems, but beyond that, the rest seems like throwing any bit of criticism about the board at it, which we should not be doing per NPOV. --Masem (t) 02:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

There is no criticism section on either Editorial Board at The Wall Street Journal or Wall Street Journal. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The "Position and views" Section in the Editorial Board is written as if it were criticism, since nearly every point raised is against normal public opinion. WP shouldn't be making a point in pointing this out, and because you've taking from multiple seperate sources to create that, rather than one single source that may outline the issues with the board, it looks like OR and NPOV in wikivoice. --Masem (t) 02:07, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Thats mostly longstanding content from Wall Street Journal, I didn't "create that" and you'd be wise to mind WP:NPA. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

There's no NPA in expressing concern about an article split on POV grounds. That said, yes I see that content was mostly present in the original article, but it still has the same problems, and now that you've split it own, this now lookins more like "Criticism of the Editorial Board of the WSJ" page. Most of those seem excessive or cherry picking, particularly given the comparable section on The New York Times#Editorial stance (though the other example, The Washington Post, has a rather hefty political position section too, though given how many stories the Post broke over its time, that actually seems somewhat due). But still, those papers don't have a separate article for the editorial board. Cut out the nitpicky position sections or trim that down (eg keeping its stance that is against climate change) and that would be better to merge back into the main paper article and avoid the NPOV-like split. --Masem (t) 02:18, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The NYT and WaPo's editorial boards don't get the same level of coverage that the WSJ Editorial Board does. If you have coverage that would address the "excessive or cherry picking" issue you claim exists please provide them, if not then it seems like what we have now is an accurate reflection of the coverage the subject receives in WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

WP:CRIT covers the issues when crafting sections that appear to be mostly critical of a topic; this is the type of content that - perhaps outside the WSJ's stance on climate change - is better reduced or integrated into other parts of the article. --Masem (t) 02:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

WP:CRIT is an essay and what we have is already completely integrated into the article. Note that its not the WSJ's stance which is at issue, its the WSJ Editorial Board's stance which is separate from the paper's. Its errors like that we're trying to prevent. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the idea of splitting the Editorial Board views, though I have a few concerns: the political stance section contains several examples of individual reactions to news events, rather than an overview of the board's rightward shift during Trump years, and this may raise reasonable concerns of cherrypicking. The "other science coverage" describes opinions WSJ no longer holds. In general it would be good to see more than simply the most controversial and criticised parts of WSJ's opinions (what about in vitro? abortion? LGBT? budget issues - big govt/small govt? balanced budget? some other president than Obama?)

That's a good try, but this needs work. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm working to flesh it out but this will take time and I can't do it all today. The "overview of the board's rightward shift during Trump years" is actually the next on my list (although it seems to have been more a see-saw than a persistent rightward shift) sources I have open but haven't yet sat down to compose from are if you want to take a crack at it. You are correct that the science section describes opinions WSJ no longer holds but the editorial board still does, the WSJ news side has reported on anthropogenic climate change as a fact for decades but the editorial board has still not accepted that fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm worried you may be taking minor aspects and turning them into something more significant than they really are as a way to justify this split. Springee (talk) 18:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

If they were minor there wouldn't be so much coverage, we let the coverage in WP:RS guide us not our pre-conceived notions of what is and is not important or significant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Bits of criticism that only appear in one or two sources is cherry picking, and definitely does not meet DUE considerations of what is important. That doesn't mean things like the board's stance on climate change, which has been covered in multiple sources, can't stay, but you shouldn't be writing to include "one-off" criticisms, as one source is not indicative of being significant or important. Masem (t) 19:12, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Am I "writing to include "one-off" criticisms" ? Thats news to me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Though I suspect some of the stuff in there was before the split too. Masem (t) 19:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

That was covered in multiple sources etc. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

It would likely be better to wrap that about the Board's stance on abortion, which without doing a lot of extra searching, has been discussed by RSes before or atop that situation eg so that it doesn't appear to be a one-off aspect. You can then still go into depth on the specifics of that recent story but it attaches to more sources related to criticism of the board's stance on abortion. Masem (t) 19:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, you should do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

There are several issues in this discussion: should the Editorial Board be split off, and are the resulting two articles written from a neutral point of view. I don't think that the last two issues should affect the decision to split. They should be addressed individually beginning on the article talk pages, if anyone sees an issue.

The editorial page meets notability standards and probably receives more attention in rs than any similar publication. It's also more distinct from news coverage than one would see in other publications. Historically, Wall St. Journal reporting was seen as more liberal than the other major papers, while its editorial page was seen as far to the right.

Splitting articles is recommended when they get long, which appears to be the case here.

TFD (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Hindu American Foundation

The reason I’m starting this discussion here is because I felt threatened after some of the editors attacked me once I only suggested to improve the article on the Talk’s page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hindu_American_Foundation#Unbalanced_article

Once I suggested to balance the article on the Talk page, I got this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Evilfreethinker#Important_Notice

That means my account could be sanctioned based on discretionary opinion of an administrator. My first though was to complain on the NoticeBoard of Incidents but for now I assume a good faith that the editors attacking me were simply overreacting because of the multiple attempts to change the articles. However, I do feel safe even discussing with them the issues, so I’d like to request a second opinion from other editors.

There seem to be a NPOV issue in Hindu American Foundation related to the name of the section, which was also raised by other editors on the Talk page. I also have a few updates with the sources — I’d like to ask other editors to evaluate them.

• 1. I propose to rename the section ‘’Attacks on Academic Freedom’’ to ‘’Controversies’’. The current name seems to reflect only one side of the story. Here is the suggestion of another editor who opposed the title, with whom I agree:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hindu_American_Foundation#Attacks_on_Academic_Freedom_vs_Controversies

«we are beholden to reliable sources, not opinions, and none of the sources in the section even appear to explicitly call these 'attacks on academic freedom' thiough some cite opinions which come close. The title of the section as it stands is not sufficiently neutral. Clearly the HAF undertake some very problematic activities, but this presentation is not in line with policy.» ‘’’I propose to check and incorporate this information based on the sources:’’’

• 2.. In 2016, HAF released its first report on bullying on Hindu students in US schools. Based on preliminary data collected the previous year, Classroom Subjected: Bullying and Bias Against Hindu Students in American Schools found that half of the students surveyed felt awkward and socially isolated due to their religious identity, with one-third of students having experienced bullying due to religious identity.

Source: https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/clery/1_in_3_u-s-_hindu_students_bullied_for_their_religious_beliefs/

Section: ‘’’Hindu rights in USA’’’

• 3. In 2020, HAF filed a motion to intervene in the case of California Department of Fair Employment and Housing v. Cisco Systems. The organization’s motion alleged that the way in which the State of California defined caste, as a Hindu theological and social hierarchy, was unconstitutional, on the grounds that the State was defining Hindu beliefs for Hindus. As of March 2022, the case is still pending.

Section: Controversies (to be named instead of «Attacks on Academic Freedom»)

Source: https://indicanews.com/2021/01/13/cisco-caste-case-haf-says-hindus-wronged/

https://indicanews.com/2020/07/02/caste-bias-in-us-cisco-sued-tech-insiders-cite-deep-rot/

• New Subsection: «Climate change»

In 2015, the Foundation partnered with The Bhumi Project, a Hindu environmental project of the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies, and multi-faith environmental organization GreenFaith, to create the Hindu Declaration on Climate Change 2015. The Declaration was signed by many Hindu spiritual and social leaders and organizations from around the world, prior to the COP21 Paris climate talks. In 2019, HAF partnered with Yale University and other Hindu environmental and community organizations for the “Hindu Earth Ethics and Climate Action” conference.

Sources:

https://news.yale.edu/2019/02/15/hindu-climate-activists-take-lead-combating-climate-change

https://brill.com/view/book/9783657760367/BP000017.xml?language=en

https://unfccc.int/news/hindu-declaration-on-climate-change

https://hinduclimatedeclaration2015.org/english Evilfreethinker (talk) 07:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

None of your sources (except the Brill chapter) are reliable sources. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:18, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you explain why the United Nations website and Yale website are not reliable sources? Evilfreethinker (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The author of the news article on the Yale website is Murali Balaji, who is the director of Education and Curriculum Reform at the Hindu American Foundation. COI etc. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 06:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I can't find sufficient coverage in reliable sources to have more than a stub article.

The first source in the article for the statement, "According to critics, HAF has repackaged the Hindu nationalist agenda in the language of "Hindu rights" to suit mainstream American politics" is the Coalition Against Genocide," which is even less covered in rs, but whose membership is mostly Muslim.

While the HAF is nominally nonpartisan, the Trump campaign said a questionnaire they sent to him and Biden was "heavily biased against Trump." They are alleged to support Modi, who was falsely accused of directing a genocide in India and banned from the EU, UK and U.S., but after he was cleared was invited to the White House by Barack Obama and Donald Trump. The allegations against HAF for being "far right" are largely based on their alleged support of Modi.

The SPLC, which tracks hate and other extremist groups in the U.S., does not mention them.

I do not have an opinion on HAS because there is insufficient information about them to form one. Unless more can be found, I would suggest reducing the article to a stub.

TFD (talk) 01:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Requesting inputs, how situation of leads in Tourism in X country articles can be improved ?

Greetings, Requesting inputs @ Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Travel and Tourism#Requesting inputs, how situation of leads in Tourism in X country articles can be improved ?

Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

requesting input at Crime in New York City

There's a discussion on the talk page about whether it is fair to have stats about NYC crime stats spiking in the lede section and some disputed language about how bad it is. Andre🚐 18:34, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson's ethnic cleansing

There is an ongoing dispute in Talk:Andrew Jackson, and @Oncamera suggested that I post here about @Display name 99's ownership behavior as the "self-appointed guardian" of the article. There are actually a few issues, but they're all related to systemic bias; the article as it is written now is focused on Jackson's impact and legacy as seen by white men, and I have been trying to adapt the content to adequately cover Jackson's (very notable) role in the ethnic cleansing of the United States, but I have been met with significant resistance.

For example, after a bit of back-and-forth, I proposed the following change to the introductory paragraph:

Andrew Jackson (March 15, 1767 – June 8, 1845) was an American lawyer, general, and statesman who served as the seventh president of the United States from 1829 to 1837. Before being elected to the presidency, Jackson gained fame as a general in the United States Army and served in both houses of the U.S. Congress. While he was championed in his time for his efforts to preserve the Union and advance the rights of working-class white men, his legacy is complicated by his role overseeing the ethnic cleansing of Indigenous populations through the Indian Removal Act.

All of the information here is prominently supported by reliable sources, and none of it is contested. The current text (written by Display name 99) looks like this:

Andrew Jackson (March 15, 1767 – June 8, 1845) was an American lawyer, general, and statesman who served as the seventh president of the United States from 1829 to 1837. Before being elected to the presidency, Jackson gained fame as a general in the United States Army and served in both houses of the U.S. Congress. An expansionist president, Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union.

This misleading (using "common" to mean white, for one) and focuses on what Jackson used to be notable for among white men rather than what he is notable for today from a global perspective.

I've gone to great lengths to try to understand Display name 99's reason for excluding ethnic cleansing, but they have not offered much explanation, describing it as a "red line," "biased," and "loaded language," with no explanation other than a book from the '80s that describes an "ongoing debate" about whether ethnic cleansing was the "correct" decision. I believe my introduction is more notable, descriptive, reliable, and neutral than anything they have proposed, but they have been persistently rejecting any change to their text without an explanation that I've been able to understand, so it seems relevant to bring the issue here and get outside opinions. FinnV3 (talk) 14:17, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

There's almost nothing in the article that discusses the complications of his legacy related to the Indian Removal Act or ethnic cleaning. The article does note he was involved with the Indian Removal Act (and this is mentioned later in the lede), but there's no commentary as to the impact on his long-term legacy. As such, it seems correct to not include this in the opening lede paragraph since it is absent in the article itself. --Masem (t) 14:23, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have time to do an in-depth response to FinnV3's post (I will do so later). However, I would like to note that the complications about his legacy are mentioned in what I see to be sufficient detail in the final paragraph of the lead. They are also mentioned in the "Historical reputation" section. However, I find that the Historical reputation section would benefit with more detail about his legacy on racial matters, and I have suggested to some editors on the talk page ways to do that. I will make a full response later. Display name 99 (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that ethnic cleansing should be discussed more throughout the article. @Display name 99 has also been removing these references. The bit about his "legacy" was an attempt at compromise with Display name 99, who felt that legacy was especially important, but I'd also be happy to mention Jackson's ethnic cleansing outside the context of his legacy. FinnV3 (talk) 14:43, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I will begin with a response to the allegation of ownership behavior before diving into specifics. I don't consider it ownership but WP:Stewardship. I wrote much of the article, brought it to featured article status, and care about insuring that it remains a high-quality work. But I don't revert edits that other people make just because I'm not the one making them. I alter or remove changes which violate Misplaced Pages policy and detract from the quality of the article, but I don't stop others from making improvements.

Now onto the specific issues. The sentence in the opening paragraph describing Jackson's presidency reads, as FinnV3 quoted it: "An expansionist president, Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union." FinnV3 objected very strongly to a number of aspects of this paragraph. He was adamant that it needed specific mention of Indian removal. I disagreed. The opening paragraph of any article is supposed to be very brief. The opening paragraph of the Jackson article, therefore, should focus in broad terms on Jackson's philosophy, not delving into the details of specific policy. Therefore, in my mind, that sentence is completely fine. It covers the essence of the principles of Jacksonian democracy, which were expanding America's borders, fighting on behalf of ordinary citizens against what was alleged to be a corrupt system in the federal government, and seeking to overcome sectional differences and keep the Union together through opposition to both nullification and abolitionism. By describing Jackson supporting the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy," we implicitly cover his purges of corruption, opposition to expensive federal programs, and the Bank War. By mentioning his work for the preservation of the Union, nullification and opposition to abolitionism are also covered. In the same way, describing him as an "expansionist president" covers his Indian removal policies. I have never seen a need to specifically mention Indian removal when crucial episodes like the Nullification Crisis and the Bank War are also not individually addressed. Indian removal, like these issues, is discussed in detail further down in the lead and in the body of the article. However, FinnV3 had the support of another editor, and in the interest of compromise, I proposed this version:

Andrew Jackson (March 15, 1767 – June 8, 1845) was an American lawyer, general, and statesman who served as the seventh president of the United States from 1829 to 1837. Before being elected to the presidency, Jackson gained fame as a general in the United States Army and served in both houses of the U.S. Congress. An expansionist president who oversaw the forced removal of thousands of Native Americans, Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against what he saw as a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union.

This already went further than I thought proper by specifically mentioning Indian removal while not specifically mentioning other issues of great relevance in Jackson's life. FinnV3 rejected it, insisting that "forced removal" be replaced with his preferred term, "ethnic cleansing." Both myself and another editor, Antiok 1pie, are opposed to this language. I readily concede one of Finnv3's key points: several reliable sources on Indian removal describe it as ethnic cleansing, and although many other sources do not use that language, I have not been able to find any which argue that it was not ethnic cleansing. However, I still do not believe that it is best to use that language in the manner in which it has been proposed, and I will repeat some of the arguments that I have made on the talk page to explain why.

Although there isn't a single scholar on the Jackson era from the late 20th century until now that I'm aware of who does not recognize the removal of Indians as orchestrated by Jackson as a humanitarian catastrophe, there is still considerable debate as to Jackson's personal responsibility in the matter. There's evidence that he wanted the Indians to be treated well, and it's not proven that he was aware of mistreatment carried out by soldiers during the relocation process. Additionally, it has been seriously argued in recent studies that as terrible as removal was, Jackson's decision to carry it out really was the best option available, and that had Jackson not undertaken it, encroaching white settlements would have led to a protracted and bloody war between whites and Native Americans which the whites eventually would have won, leading to more Native American deaths than took place during the removal. Therefore, removal, as terrible as it was, was simply the best option that Jackson had. Robert V. Remini is a major historian who published numerous works on Jackson in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, argues that. His studies of Jackson have formed a foundation for all scholarship of him that has taken place since. He largely defends Jackson's removal policies as tragic but necessary. Several other historians have adopted that view, one of whom, Francis Paul Prucha, is mentioned in the "Historical reputation" section of the article. Personally, I agree that Jackson's Indian removal policies most likely did conform to the literal definition of ethnic cleansing. However, the term has an extremely negative connotation. In my mind, it implies that Jackson hated the Indians, wanted them gone, and perhaps even wished to exterminate them. Because of its implication, I do not think that is appropriate to use that language without further context when the necessity and justification of Jackson's actions is not a settled matter and is still debated. My preferred language, "forced removal," is neutral and accurate, and has no implications beyond what is simple fact that everyone can agree on. FinnV3 disputed my claim that "ethnic cleansing" implies hatred, but when I asked him why whether, if both terms are neutral and accurate and don't imply any particular motivations, he wouldn't simply accept my preferred version when I so strongly opposed the other, he did not give an answer that I could understand.

To summarize, I don't think that Indian removal needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph. But if it is going to be mentioned, it should at least be in a way that does not imply something which some reliable sources oppose.

I also don't think that it's appropriate or necessary to say in the opening paragraph that his legacy was complicated by Indian removal. Jackson was extremely controversial during and after his lifetime. But the most intense political issues of his day, and the positions for which Jackson was most heavily criticized in sources written in the 120* years after his death, was not Indian removal. This did not became the thing that he was most criticized for until the 1970s.

FinnV3 has objected to the use of the term "common man" in both the opening and concluding paragraphs of the lead, the former of which summarizes his philosophy and the latter his legacy. Language like "common man" is a critical part of the idea of Jacksonian democracy. Jackson's supporters, both in his time and through scholarly works long after his death, have not described him as an advocate of the "white working class" but for the "common man" or "ordinary Americans." However flawed, inaccurate, or incomplete this may be, that's what they have said, and it's essential to note when assessing his legacy. When describing things for which Jackson has been praised, it is most accurate to use the language in which he has been praised. It is not biased to do so when the article also notes his racial policies and mentions the criticism that he has received for them. Additionally, "common man" is in quotes in the first paragraph. The quotes demonstrate that this was the language of Jackson's supporters, and that their definition of "common man," which was generally limited to white men, should not be taken as the absolute and final meaning of the term. A secondary point is that Native Americans who chose to adopt white habits and live like whites, as well as freed blacks in the North, were also effected in many ways by Jackson's economic policies that he engaged in on behalf of the "common man," and so to replace "common man" with "white working class," or something similar, makes it seem like these people don't exist.

FinnV3 also removed a sentence saying that Jackson was ranked favorably compared to other U.S. presidents. Antiok 1pie reverted him. When shown indisputable evidence that most presidential ranking surveys did place Jackson near the top, and he allowed a proposed compromise version of the sentence to go into the article without complaining, but is now trying to end altogether the practice of including presidential rankings in the leads of articles.

The reference that I removed was a Vox article written by a non-historian. Internet articles are cited in the article, but they aren't in the Bibliography, especially when they are nothing more than popular opinion pieces written by non-historians, as was the case with that article.

I know that was a lot of writing, but the opposition to so many points in the article necessitated it. I am not trying to own the article and erase the history of Native Americans. There's plenty about them in the article. When two editors voiced concerns on the talk page that the "Historical reputation" section lacked sufficient critical assessments of Jackson, I welcomed them to add some. When one of them wanted a pro-Jackson assessment removed because it came from a source that they found unreliable, I consented. However, what FinnV3's revisions would do to the article would result it inflated coverage of racial issues while diminishing everything else, while discussing these racial issues in a biased way that would imply conclusions contrary to many important sources. Display name 99 (talk) 19:40, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• "I don't stop others from making improvements." I disagree, as do other frustrated editors in the history and talk pages.
• "In my mind, it implies that Jackson hated the Indians, wanted them gone, and perhaps even wished to exterminate them." Why? As I pointed out before, the term "ethnic cleansing" is used in the context of coercive child adoption, and adoptive parents guilty do not generally hate their children. Andrew Jackson committed ethnic cleansing, as supported by reliable sources more recent than Display name 99's, and there are no unfair connotations or implications behind this terminology. I do not like your pro-ethnic-cleansing argument, and I don't see why it has any bearing on whether we should describe Jackson's (prominently notable) ethnic cleansing.
• "When I asked him why whether, if both terms are neutral and accurate and don't imply any particular motivations, he wouldn't simply accept my preferred version when I so strongly opposed the other, he did not give an answer that I could understand." A few reasons:

1. "Ethnic cleansing" is more descriptive than "forced removal." It describes an additional dimension to the violence, namely the racial one, and it adds this extra description without adding any extra words. It is also a term commonly used in modern writing that will be familiar to the casual Misplaced Pages reader, with a more precise definition than simple "forced removal."
2. It's the language used in the sources I read, and all of my sources are more recent than yours. It's also the language used for other similarly controversial political figures on Misplaced Pages, and I would like Misplaced Pages articles to be written with a consistent style. I see no reason to use different language for Jackson.
3. I suspect that you have fallen victim to systemic bias. We should not use different language for Jackson than other ethnic cleansers just because he was a U.S. president.

• "Jackson's supporters, both in his time and through scholarly books and articles long after his death, have not described him as an advocate of the 'white working class' but for the 'common man' or 'ordinary Americans.'" That's true of any populist. Why do you want to use the language of Jackson's supporters? I don't think we should use the word "common" to mean white, as Misplaced Pages articles should be written with a global perspective.
• "Native Americans who chose to adopt white habits and live like whites, as well as freed blacks in the North..." These were relatively uncommon, and I find the word "common" extremely inappropriate here.
• "Most presidential ranking surveys did place Jackson near the top." Keyword: "did". They do not anymore, and Misplaced Pages articles should reflect current academic consensus.
• "What FinnV3's revisions would do to the article would result it inflated coverage of racial issues while diminishing everything else." What am I diminishing? Why is it more notable than ethnic cleansing?
• "...discussing these racial issues in a biased way that would imply conclusions contrary to many important sources." What is the "bias"? What are the unfairly "implied conclusions"? I still have not gotten a satisfactory response. FinnV3 (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

  TL;DR.

  Historian / expert ratings are important. I see no reason not to include them. Whether or not they should go in the lead is debatable. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

  Right, that's what I've been debating separately, as it seemed like less of a NPOV issue. FinnV3 (talk) 22:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

It is a good idea to expand coverage of Andrew Jackson's impact on Native Americans. That's a process that should finish with the lede, not start at the lede. The phrase "ethnic cleansing" can be used if prominent sources use it. Sennalen (talk) 22:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I reading through this discussion and looking at the article page I see little to support FinnV3's proposed changes. It very much looks like a POV edit and tries to view historical events through modern eyes. It does not appear that the large volume of RSs on Jackson would choose such a summary for Jackson's biography. Springee (talk) 02:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

FinnV3, I'm not going to respond to most of your points here. We've already battled each other for pages on the talk page. We're not going to cover any new ground here, so I think this space should be used mainly to get outside opinions. I will however point out that your statement that historians no longer rank Jackson highly compared to other presidents is false. Yes, there has been a substantial drop in his placement on the rankings, but on the talk page, Antiok 1pie linked to survey which was conducted in 2015 and ranked him 9th. Muboshgu, I trimmed my original post a little bit. I know that there were already replies to it, but I didn't change the meaning of anything, so hopefully it is not thought improper. The post is still very long, but I can't really shorten it much more. Aside from accusing me personally of wrongdoing, FinnV3 challenged three separate parts of the lead. That is a lot to respond to, so I hope that you will understand and try to be patient. Regarding the presidential rankings, I'm not adamant about whether they need to go in the lead or not, but almost every U.S. presidential biography has them there. Millard Fillmore's doesn't for some reason but I think that every single other one does. This article is just following the standard convention. FinnV3 just doesn't like how it says that most rankings of Jackson have been favorable, even though it's 100% true. Sennalen, as I mentioned above, I have invited two other editors who expressed concerns with coverage of Native American issues in the body of the article to make edits there. One of them already has. The term "ethnic cleansing" is used by multiple scholars to describe Indian removal. As such, I would have no problem with a sentence in the section on "Indian removal" or "Historical reputation" in something like "Many scholars have labelled Jackson's removal policies ethnic cleansing. However, I do not think that it belongs in the lead, and certainly not in the opening paragraph. For my reasons, I respectfully refer you to my above post. Display name 99 (talk) 03:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

It's natural that the Andrew Jackson article might run into an issue of balancing weight between older scholarship, which probably doesn't refer to Indian Removal Act, etc, using the term ethnic cleansing, and newer, one might say more progressive scholarship. Some might call this revisionist scholarship, undoubtedly some more conservative scholars might not agree with the "woke" takes on Jackson. Nonetheless, if they are a substantial minority view, they should be included, and there's a good chance something about the modern controversy or reevaluation of Jackson is suitable for the lede section. That being said, you all need to discuss this productively, and come to a constructive consensus. Display name 99, you are WP:TEXTWALLing, but this is a good starting point for the constructiveness: I would have no problem with a sentence in the section on "Indian removal" or "Historical reputation" in something like "Many scholars have labelled Jackson's removal policies ethnic cleansing. You do need to not WP:OWN the article and work constructively. That being said, to FinnV3, you will need to balance and reflect the older, more conservative sources with the newer scholarship. Recent academic consensus doesn't mean that all the old sources go away - they just become reweighted and recontextualized over time. So you'll need some balance, I haven't studied all the work on Jackson in depth, but "ethnic cleanser" I'm guessing is not going to be the first sentence of the lede section. It would probably have to be closer to qualified and contextualized as a controversy shifting over time about what some have called ethnic cleansing. That's my guess, not having reviewed the sources at all. Andre🚐 03:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan, Thank you for your thoughts. The modern controversy and reevaluations of Jackson are already in the lead section. I quote from the end of the final paragraph of the lead:

Jackson has been widely revered in the United States as an advocate for democracy and the common man. Many of his actions proved divisive, garnering both fervent support and strong opposition from many in the country. His reputation has suffered since the 1970s, largely due to his anti-abolitionist views and policy of the forcible removal of Native Americans from their ancestral homelands. However, surveys of historians and scholars have usually ranked Jackson favorably among U.S. presidents. FinnV3 was displeased that Indian removal was not explicitly mentioned in the opening paragraph. Despite not thinking it necessary, I offered him a version that did explicitly mention it (I quoted it in green in my original post), but he rejected it because he insisted on including the language "ethnic cleansing," which I did not think was appropriate for the opening paragraph. The dispute isn't about whether modern critical evaluations should be mentioned in the lead. They already are and I agree that they ought to be. It's about whether "ethnic cleansing" is appropriate for the opening paragraph, how to describe Jackson's legacy as an advocate for democracy in light of his racial policies, and the issue of presidential rankings. Display name 99 (talk) 03:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Springee, I agree. One of the most recent biographies of Jackson was American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White Houae by Jon Meacham. It was released in 2008, sold very widely, and won the Pulitzer Prise. It is the best-selling biography of Jackson ever written, and still fairly recent. I see it on the shelves in Barnes & Noble. I found an Internet version of the book and did a search for "ethnic cleansing" and "ethnic cleanser." I found nothing in the entire book. I did the same thing for another biography of Jackson published in 2005 by reputed historian H.W. Brands. Again, I found no results. While it's true that I have not found any reliable sources that argue that Jackson's actions were not ethnic cleansing, the fact that neither of these two biographers, both of whom are very reputable historians and whose books were published recently, use the term once in their entire books on Jackson shows that it's probably not a good idea for us to use it in the first paragraph of our article on him. Display name 99 (talk) 04:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• I suspect that it is TOO SOON to use the term “ethnic cleansing”… there simply are not enough historians (yet) who use that phrasing. I suspect this will change over the next decade or so… but for NOW, using it gives UNDUE weight to what is still a fringe view. Misplaced Pages follows the scholarship, it does not lead it. Blueboar (talk) 14:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Deathlibrarian made the argument for inclusion of ethnic cleansing on the article Trail of Tears. This is a repost referencing their contribution and they should be given all credit for the hard work and research they did to find these reliable sources which I believe show that it is not, in fact, TOO SOON to call it what it was, ethnic cleansing. You can find the original text here.

"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area" appears to exactly match what was done with the Indian removals on the trail of tears, I wouldn't regard it as an unusual claim at all - it seems to me exactly what happened. But happy to provide some supporting referenced quotes for you, all good - references are in APA style, I hope these are ok. There's 20 here, should be enough for wikipedia:

• "The Indian Removal Act stated that the president could force tribes to relocate in exchange for a “grant” of western territory where white settlers did not yet live. (No matter that the western land might already be occupied by other tribes.) This became carte blanche for the U.S. government to commit ethnic cleansing"
• "The ethnic cleansing of the Cherokee nation by the U.S. Army, 1838."
• "But the economic returns on this massive project of ethnic cleansing and displacement were also considerable. In the 1830s-the decade of removal-the federal government made nearly $80 million selling Native American lands to private individuals"
• "To call their expulsion a removal is to sanitise, to banalise it, to avoid confronting it. For what the citizens of Georgia, Alabama and Missisipi in fact undertook, was nothing less than the complete dismemberment, the ethnic cleansing of the society they inhabited"
• "Andrew Jackson was a slaver, ethnic cleanser, and tyrant. He deserves no place on our money." "Leaving aside whether Jackson's acts of ethnic cleansing against Native Americans technically count as war crimes or just ordinary crimes against humanity, his career as a general included numerous actions which would absolutely warrant criminal action today"
• "At What Cost? The Cherokee Trail of Tears: America's Ethnic Cleansing"
• "In modern popular culture, the best-known episode of Native ethnic cleansing is the Cherokee nation's brutal experience, dubbed The Trail of Tears."
• " In fact, it has become such a powerful symbol for the devastating US program of ethnic cleansing known as Indian removal that it is often forgotten how much more extensive..."
• "Andrew Jackson’s administration (1828–36) implemented a policy of ethnic cleansing with a vengeance and the Cherokee Trail of Tears exemplifies the horrors and atrocities of this"
• "...estimates that because of this forced ethnic cleansing, about 20 percent of the 16,000 expelled Cherokees died of hunger, privation, and disease on the “Trail of Tears,"
• " Especially traumatic were the forced removal (ethnic cleansing) of southeastern US Indians over the Trail of Tears to Indian Territory (present-day Oklahoma) in the 1830s" Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:12, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• " Jackson advocated “removal” or ethnic cleansing, so he sided with Georgia’s settler administration against the Cherokee and the Marshall court." Penikett, T. (2012). A ‘literacy test’for Indigenous government?. Northern Public Affairs, 1, 32-37.
• "Both played central roles in horrible acts of ethnic cleansing , Jackson in the Trail of Tears and Jabotinsky in the 1948 nakba"
• "Members of the nations certainly remembered their forced removal at the hands of the federal government, an American ethnic cleansing of the southeastern states implemented just a generation before— and feared the Lincoln adminis- tration would now seek to open Indian Territory to white settlement"
• "The United States may not have written the book on ethnic cleansing, but it certainly provided several of its most stunning chapters -- particularly in its treatment of the American Indian in the transcontinental drive for territory justified under the quasi-religious notion of "manifest destiny.""
• "Ethnic Cleansing and the Trail of Tears: Cherokee Pasts, Places, and Identities"
• "Today is the 160th anniversary of the beginning of the Trail of Tears, an American form of ethnic cleansing that my great-great-grandparents fell victim to"
• "Now a lightning rod for condemnation of the expropriation of Indian property, Jackson was an agent of demographic pressures and a lust for the resources found on tribal lands. The result of this land grab and ethnic cleansing was the Trail of Tears, a highway of the dispossessed, enroute from their homelands to less favorable situations away from the population centers of the European-Americans
• "For the World Viewed as an event on the stage of world history , the Trail of Tears supplies one example of the international , ongoing phenomenon of ethnic cleansing "
• "Others prefer the term genocide, or ethnic cleansing. The terms genocide, death march, and ethnic cleansing all imply that the US government expected many Native Americans to die along the way—even before the journey began." Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:02, 22 November 2021 (UTC)}}

I provided the exact contributions above for clarity. I wanted to make sure that attribution to @deathlibrarian was noted. As pointed out in the above discussion by @Display name 99, they have not been able to find any modern reliable sources which dispute the ethnic cleansing terminology. The two stated biographies simply do not refer to the forced removal as ethnic cleansing but do not dispute the claim of it being such. The fact it is not mentioned in Andrew Jackson's biographies does not outweigh the overwhelming evidence presented from independent reliable sources, likewise, neither does the fact it was omitted by two historians outweigh the historical viewpoints of other historians despite @Display name 99's calling them "very reputable". Even those sources which stop short of calling it genocide still refer to it as ethnic cleansing. That is the minimum at which it should be referred. --ARoseWolf 15:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I have to concur with ARoseWolf and Deathlibrarian, a lot of sources are using this terminology. Is there any rebuttal? Andre🚐 15:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have time to look through all those sources but they do appear very recent (in context of this event) and how many are strong sources for such a claim. The first one is Teen Vogue. Springee (talk) 15:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

If you don't have time, don't characterize all of them based on a cursory glance. There is at least one from 1995, and a number that appear to be academic sources. Andre🚐 15:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

A long list is presented with a claim that it proves a point. However the first source on the list is Teen Vogue Another source in the list is a book review where the reviewer chooses to use "ethnic cleansing" once, towards the end of the review published by "Southern Spaces" (no idea who they are). If the intent is to say, "each source in this list has used the term", fine. However, if the claim is "this is a list of strong RSs using the term thus we should too" and the list contains crap sources like Teen Vogue, how should we take it? I take it as a keyword search rather than a representative literature search. Springee (talk) 21:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not defending Teen Vogue, but there are at least a handful of decent usable sources in the list that was offered. We could try to be a bit charitable and recognize it as a good faith effort. Instead of picking the one that's easiest to dismiss, you could try a "steelman" and pick the one that looks the meatiest and most appropriate and proceed from a place of constructiveness. Andre🚐 21:28, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

There are so many WP:WALLS in this discussion and on the Talk Page that I'm going to have to take a day off of work to understand all the arguments here. I so wish editors would practice brevity. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 15:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Deathlibrarian, ARoseWolf, Andrevan and Pyrrho the Skipper I will try to restate my arguments for the opening paragraph in brief, bullet point format.

• Yes, many high-quality sources do call it ethnic cleansing. However, the term has a highly negative connotation. Some historians argue that removal was necessary to protect the Indians from encroaching settlers. Basically, it was terrible but it had to happen for the Indians' own good. Even one historian (Richard B. Latner) who criticizes Jackson's removal policies still writes that Jackson had humanitarian concern for the Indians, only that it was misguided. Using the term "ethnic cleansing" without any context implies that Jackson hated the Indians and possibly wished to exterminate them, which runs counter to these sources' arguments and thus violates NPOV.
• The three main biographers of Jackson within the past 50 years-Remini (three volumes published in 1977, 1981, and 1984), Brands (2005), and Meacham-(2008) don't use the term once in their entire works on Jackson. Thus, we shouldn't use it in the opening paragraph of our article about Jackson. Enough reliable sources do use it where it probably could be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article (either in the section on removal or the Historical reputation section), but putting it in the first paragraph is undue weight given that these important sources don't use it at all. Remember, this isn't an article simply about Indian removal. It's an article about Andrew Jackson, and so while sources about Indian removal are very important, we should follow most closely what Jackson biographers have written.
• I don't think that Indian removal needs to be specifically addressed in the first paragraph at all. No other specific events or issues in Jackson's life and presidency are mentioned, and so I think that specifically mentioning it in any way constitutes undue weight. But if it is going to be mentioned, which I am willing to agree to if necessary in the interest of finding a resolution, it should be in language that does not suggest anything contrary to what all reliable sources agree upon. That is why my chosen language, "forced removal," is better.

Hopefully that makes things easier for everyone. Display name 99 (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

So, I have some concerns that your statements are substituting your own POV on Jackson for what the sources say, in your first and third point. Indian removal is definitely a huge part of Jackson's legacy, and many sources do cover that aspect of his life and presidency. I don't think you can keep it out altogether. Andre🚐 16:39, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

We can say exactly the same about the victory at New Orleans, purges of corruption in the government, the Bank War, and the Nullification Crisis, and yet none of these are mentioned in the opening paragraph. Obviously if enough editors disagree, it will have to be mentioned in the first paragraph. However, the manner in which we do so should stick to the bare facts and not imply any conclusions that not all sources agree upon. Display name 99 (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say it should be in the first paragraph. We clearly do have the bank and the crisis stuff covered in the lead section. Andre🚐 17:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Andrevan, okay, but FinnV3 says that it should, and I was saying that it shouldn't be mentioned in the first paragraph, so it seemed to me like you were disagreeing with me. Indian removal and its legacy is already discussed in the third and fourth paragraphs of the lead. Does there need to be more there? I think it's enough already. I've already said that I would be fine with "ethnic cleansing" being mentioned in the body of the article. So if you agree that it doesn't have to be in the lead, it seems that we would not disagree on the issue. Display name 99 (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. The terminology questions and the placement of the Trail of Tears should probably be three different conversations. I don't know where I land on the terminology yet (I will say biographers can have a tendency to venerate their subjects), but I think the Trail of Tears is a big enough part of Jackson's legacy to be in the first, or at least second paragraph, because it was perhaps his biggest legislative accomplishment and essentially put in motion the broader actions that affected the entire native American population in the decades that followed. It's currently buried way down in the lead, but it's an enormous part of his legacy. A U.S. president recently tried removing him from the currency due to the Trail of Tears, which millions of Americans supported. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Display name 99, nowhere in policy does it say we with hold negative information from any biography simply because we feel the information is too negative. We follow reliable secondary sources. While some sources may contain bias and we should scrutinize those sources more heavily to ensure they are not disproportionately targeting subjects, whether current or historical, we still follow the sources. To call it forced removal when sources call it ethnic cleansing is not maintaining a NPOV.

• Yes, ethnic cleansing carries more weight than forced removal because that term is understood by today's culture better, but the article is written for today's reader, not a reader from the mid-1800's. There is nothing saying that articles won't change or that additional information can't be found or produced that might change our understanding of events surrounding this subject. Misplaced Pages allows for the continued alteration of articles as reliable sources dictate, otherwise, once an article was created no one would be allowed to edit that article. Though it may be slow to change, Misplaced Pages is living, it is not static.
• Only allowing for selectively using certain reliable sources because those sources written from the point of view of a biographer while rejecting other reliable sources that might be more critical of their actions is fallacy.
• The ethnic cleansing and forced removal of Native Americans dominated Andrew Jackson's presidency and was a lasting part of his legacy that affects Native cultures even today. Regardless of any of these personal views, we may or may not agree on a lot of things, we reflect what reliable sources say. --ARoseWolf 18:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

ARoseWolf, it's not that it's too negative but that, without context, it suggests that something that not all reliable sources agree on. As for your sentence To call it forced removal when sources call it ethnic cleansing is not maintaining a NPOV., not all reliable sources say that. Please don't just take the sources that you want and imply that they speak for all of them.

Again, you're distorting my arguments. I didn't say that we reject all sources not biographies. I only maintain that when making broad assessments of Jackson's legacy, biographies should receive precedence. Aside from the three biographies already mentioned, a fourth one, written in 2005 by Sean Wilentz, also does not use the term ethnic cleansing. There's another biography of Jackson that came out in 2022 by David S. Brown. It mentions the term "ethnic cleansing," but only in reference to "labels" that have been applied to the policy. It does not call it ethnic cleansing. The fact that none of the five most recent major Jackson biographies (Remini, Brands, Wilentz, Meacham, and Brown) call the removal ethnic cleansing, and that four of them don't even mention the term at all, makes a very strong case that we should not use it in the opening paragraph. Further down in the article, yes, we can. But I strenuously object to it in the opening paragraph.

It is historically inaccurate to say that the removal of Native Americans dominated Andrew Jackson's presidency. It was a major aspect of it, of course, but there were numerous policies which he undertook which had little or nothing to do with it. The Bank War and the nullification issue still would have occurred if not for the Indian Removal Act. Much of the removal didn't even occur under his presidency. The removal of the Cherokee happened in 1838, after he had already left office. I also know that it is a lasting part of his legacy, which is why it is mentioned prominently in the final paragraph of the lead which asseses his legacy, as well as under "Historical reputation." Display name 99 (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

You were shown twenty reliable sources which call the policy enacted under his presidency ethnic cleansing. And you stated yourself that you can not find reliable sources which argue against calling it ethnic cleansing. You say that omission from biographies overrules other reliable sources because they are biographies written by "very reputable" historians. Well, that seems a very narrow and non-neutral point of view. Please provide the Misplaced Pages policy which states that biographical sources about a subject should receive higher weight than other reliable sources. It was and is not just a lasting part of his legacy, it was and is a prominent part of his legacy. It is a huge part of his notability to past and current generations. If there were not overwhelming support for calling it ethnic cleansing in reliable sources I would concur with your assessment, however, your refusal to take into account the reliable sources, or refuse to point to policy which supports your POV, makes it seem that you are pushing a personal POV rather than following the sources and giving them due weight in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy. In order for information to be included in the lead it has to be in the body of the article so of course it is going to be detailed in the article. The lead is a summary hitting the most notable aspects of a subject's life. Finally, it's false equivalence to reason that because the policy enacted under Jackson continued under following presidents and that some historians gave their opinion that it was ultimately a good thing for Native cultures to be removed that those two somehow mean ethnic cleansing is the wrong terminology and shouldn't be in the lead paragraph. Twenty reliable sources disagree and those are just a sampling of the overall sources that can be found. --ARoseWolf 20:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually Jackson was a forceful proponent of Indian removal. Jackson personally faced the Creek on the battlefield. Jackson had a paternalistic view of the Natives similar to the White Man's Burden and Manifest Destiny. This is all stuff from any modern high school American history text. I do not think that biographies have absolute precedence or that they all have to agree on something for it to be in the lede section. You need a balance of biographies, journal articles, history texts, and even some other kinds of media like modern discussions in news or magazines. Academic sources get more weight, primarily journal articles and history books (which are not always or primarily biographies per se). Unanimity is also not a requirement.

I'm not arguing that ethnic cleansing needs to be in the first sentence or the first paragraph necessarily, but I think before we talk about where and how to treat it, @Display name 99 should acknowledge some of the general scope and shape of the facts we should cover in the article.

The view of Jackson has undoubtedly shifted over time. Jackson was a widely highly ranked president until relatively recently. Jackson's popular sovereignty movement and his war on the Second Bank of the United States has been criticized by more modern historians as proto-populist: white working people saw Jackson as their hero, because he opposed the rich man’s bank. Biographies can tend toward hagiography. Jon Meacham is a very safe and moderate type of historian. We need to balance the Meacham views with a modern view that owes more to Howard Zinn, the Indian Removal bill came before Congress and was called, at the time, “the leading measure” of the Jackson administration and “the greatest question that ever came before Congress”, Andre🚐 20:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Most importantly, the article should describe what actually happened that he had a role in and his role in it. Not in trying to fight in (and at best push the envelope on the meaning of the term) an un-informative value-laden term. Second, that is something that the overall US government had been doing since the beginning of it's existence, and also did long after Jackson was gone. Trying to word it like this was a particular initiative of Jackson is misleading at best. North8000 (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, getting the raw facts right is far more important than trying to push the latest descriptor into the article. Springee (talk) 21:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Jackson does, historically, represent a change in policy toward Native Americans and the Trail of Tears, great expansionism, etc., that's a historical fact. Trying to hand-wave this as something that the US gov't has always done is misleading. Jackson has a personal stake in both fighting Native Americans on the battlefield, and helping bring about the policies of their displacement. That doesn't mean the phrase "ethnic cleansing" has sufficient sources to be in the first graf, but let's not whitewash Jackson's presidency on this board. Andre🚐 21:30, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

At its most basic, he (1) removed one race of people from their homeland (2)it was done in less than human conditions, so many of them died in the process (3) another race then moved into that area and used it. This fits all the definitions of ethnic cleansing. IN addition, there are many references (posted above) that refer to it as ethnic cleansing. How anyone could ignore all those references, and come to the conclusion that we shouldn't be using ethnic cleansing as a term in this article, is beyond me. I'm personally not from the US, so I look at this guy neutrally, and I can't work out why this wasn't referred to as ethnic cleansing before now.From an outsiders point of view, Jackson seems to have been given a free pass by historians for positive things he has done, while what he did to the native Americans seems to have swept under the carpet. Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

That logic is the very definition of original research, which we can't do. We need quality sources that describe it as ethnic cleansing. And if no one has called it that, we definitely cannot do that either. --Masem (t) 01:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

We do have sources that describe it as such, the question is not whether there are any. There exist some, the question is how many, and whether that is sufficient, and how we should describe or attribute the information. It's going to be in the article in some capacity but how is yet to be determined. Andre🚐 02:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Let me see if I can more effectively explain part of my position this way. The opening paragraph of the lead describes in brief, very broad terms the main things for which a person or thing is most notable. A study of a specific issue such as Indian removal, no matter how high the quality is, does not serve to provide a general assessment of the main reasons for why Jackson is important. It cannot compare Jackson's achievements in preserving the Union through the Nullification Crisis to his expulsion policies because it doesn't exist to do that. It exists to describe a specific issue, and that only. A biography of Jackson, however, will. Specialized studies of individual issues should absolutely be used in Misplaced Pages. But when looking for help in reliable sources to answer the question of how to summarize a person's achievements and legacy in just a few sentences, we should look first to biographies, because a biography seeks to answer those questions. This means that if no biographies call Jackson's Indian removal policies "ethnic cleansing," it would be best not to use that term in the opening paragraph. No, I don't have a policy that supports this. It just seems like good sense. Making that argument, ARoseWolf, doesn't mean that I'm trying to push my own personal POV. Look at the latest comment by Deathlibrarian: "Jackson seems to have been given a free pass by historians for positive things he has done, while what he did to the native Americans seems to have swept under the carpet." This editor clearly has their own personal agenda and is making no attempt to hide it. Are you going to call them out on it? Display name 99 (talk) 04:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/indian-removal-act-1830-explained
2. https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/trail-of-tears-walk-commemorates-native-americans-forced-removal/
3. Treuer, D. (2020). This Land Is Not Your Land: The Ethnic Cleansing of Native Americans. Foreign Aff., 99, 171.
4. “The Obituary of Nations”: Ethnic Cleansing, Memory, and the Origins of the Old South James Taylor Carson Southern Cultures Vol. 14, No. 4, First Peoples (WINTER 2008), pp. 6-31 (26 pages)
5. "Andrew Jackson was a slaver, ethnic cleanser, and tyrant. He deserves no place on our money." VOX Dylan Matthews Apr 20, 2016, 5:12pm EDT https://www.vox.com/2016/4/20/11469514/andrew-jackson-indian-removal
6. McVickar, M. A., & LeVangie, M. At What Cost? The Cherokee Trail of Tears: America’s Ethnic Cleansing
7. Reinhardt, A. (2018). "Indigenous Adaptations to Settler Colonialism". Middle West Review, 5(1), 151-157.
8. Lakomäki, S. (2017). Land Too Good for Indians: Northern Indian Removal by John P. Bowes. Ohio Valley History, 17(1), 98-100.
9. McGuire, R. H. (2004). Contested pasts: archaeology and Native Americans. A Companion to Social Archaeology, 374-395.
10. Chirot, D., & Edwards, J. (2003). making sense of the senseless: understanding genocide. contexts, 2(2), 12-19.
11. Reyhner, J. A. (2017). Who and What Are American Indians?. Race in America: How a Pseudoscientific Concept Shaped Human Interaction , 181.
12. SALAITA, S. (2016). ETHNIC CLEANSING AS NATIONAL UPLIFT. In Inter/Nationalism: Decolonizing Native America and Palestine (pp. 71–102). University of Minnesota Press. http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5749/j.ctt1ggjkg0.6
13. Cobb-Greetham, A. (2015). Hearth and Home: Cherokee and Creek Women’s Memories of the Civil War in Indian Territory. In B. R. CLAMPITT (Ed.), The Civil War and Reconstruction in Indian Territory (pp. 153–171). University of Nebraska Press. https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctt1d98c51.11
14. Kenneth C. Davis "AMNESIA; Ethnic Cleansing Didn't Start in Bosnia" The New York Times - Sept. 3, 1995 https://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/03/weekinreview/amnesia-ethnic-cleansing-didn-t-start-in-bosnia.html
15. James Taylor Carson. (2017). Ethnic Cleansing and the Trail of Tears: Cherokee Pasts, Places, and Identities. Southern Spaces. https://doi.org/10.18737/M7SD5Q
16. Sandefurt, G. (1998, June 17). Tragic Legacy of the Trail of Tears. St Louis Post-Dispatch (MO).
17. "The New Trail of Tears" Brian Stewart 25 July 2019 https://publicseminar.org/essays/the-new-trail-of-tears/
18. Amy H. Sturgis · 2007 The Trail of Tears and Indian Removal page 3
19. Jennifer Lombardo "The Trail of Tears" - 2020, Page 76

Hunter Biden laptop controversy

• Page: Hunter Biden laptop controversy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Is this a neutral opening sentence for the lead: "The Hunter Biden laptop controversy involves a laptop computer that conservative media outlets claimed (without evidence) had belonged to Hunter Biden."

While initially the laptop's authenticity was questioned, mainstream media appear to treat it as real. See for example, "Analysis of Hunter Biden's hard drive shows he, his firm took in about $11 million from 2013 to 2018, spent it fast." (NBC News May 19, 2022)

TFD (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The lead needs to be updated, but that part is correct... When the story initially broke the claims were being made without evidence. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

We could rewrite the Watergate scandal to say it "involved a claim made by liberals (without evidence) that White House officials were responsible for the Watergate burglary and cover-up." TFD (talk) 20:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Except that didn't happen. What happened was that people asked, "what did the president know, and when did he know it?" And maybe they're asking that again today, and if so, that is entirely valid. What's not valid is a political oppo research conspiracy that can't be verified (unlike Watergate). Watergate had several false starts and moments where the trail had gone cold. But we can't rush to a conclusion that there is any "there" there, except that "there" which reliable sources confirm is there. There's a big gap between what NY Post reported and what other outlets can confirm. Andre🚐 20:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

That would be ahistorical, our personal political POVs are no excuses to write fantasy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest breaking it up to two sentence. "The Hunter Biden laptop controversy involves information leajed from a laptop computer reportedly owned by Hunter Biden, first reported in 2020 ahead of the presidential election. Conservative media outlets initially claimed without evidence that the laptop had belonged to Hunter Biden, leading most other major media outlets to discuss the story. However, new forensic evidence in 2021 revealed the authentic of information from the laptop." Or something like that. Masem (t) 19:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The article does appear to be out of date given these recent articles which consider the laptop at least authentic: Particularly the 3 paragraphs in the Vox piece that begin, "This is a reference.." However, that doesn't mean that the entire story is confirmed and vindicated, or that there isn't disinformation associated with claims that Hunter Biden has criminal tax fraud or whatever is being alleged. April 2022 WaPo quotes the leaker saying: "I do know that there have been multiple attempts over the past year-and-a-half to insert questionable material into the laptop as in, not physically, but passing off this misinformation or disinformation as coming from the laptop". So I think we need to tread with caution and consider what different outlets are saying, and reflect that in the article in appropriate weight while recognizing it is a timely news story that may continue to change and shift. Andre🚐 19:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The without evidence part doesn't make sense. The NY Post researched the laptop and the story was prima facie evidence that the laptop belonged to Hunter Biden. RS do this all the time when reporting on stories advancing claims their research has validated. What's the sourcing for "without evidence?" It's unsourced since it's the lead and it is not followed up on in the body. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:18, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The Post couldn't confirm the story so they had doubts, and other outlets stayed away from it. "Bruce Golding, a reporter at the Rupert Murdoch-owned tabloid since 2007, did not allow his byline to be used because he had concerns over the article’s credibility" Andre🚐 20:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Article could use WP:TNT to be re-written from the ground up. Its a confusing mashup of earlier credibility concerns with current revelations. The relevant information of the laptop being real, having some real emails but also questions about data integrity are currently lost in the middle of the article. Slywriter (talk) 20:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. There's a lot of stale recentism and inside baseball. Sennalen (talk) 21:15, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

If we wanted to put the without evidence thing somewhere, we should put it after the claim made by the Intelligence officials, that the laptop was Russian disinformation. They even admitted they didn’t have any evidence of it, so at least there it would be appropriate (and sourced). Mr Ernie (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Should a NPoV template, be placed on the page-in-question? GoodDay (talk) 21:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

no. SPECIFICO talk 00:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The whole article is a sequence of SYNTH. The article should be AfD'd if anyone has time. SPECIFICO talk 00:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Not sure an AfD would succeed. But a re-write of it, wouldn't hurt. GoodDay (talk) 01:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that lead is neutral. As far as I can make out there was enough evidence to do a story even if it turned out the evidence was rather shakey. The article should concentrate on the topic but it looks like political point scoring. I think also the forensic evidence and intelligence response should be moved near the top so the status of the laptop and its contents is clear before the article goes into the back and forth between the newspapers and others. It coud do with having someone editing who can make it more readable. NadVolum (talk) 09:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Robert Fisk

Robert Fisk (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I have noticed that certain biographical articles on Misplaced Pages tend to be occupied by partisan editors who evidently hold the subject in great esteem. One such example is the Robert Fisk article, which effectively reads as a eulogy, in spite of the considerable criticism Mr. Fisk faced from experts within MENA fields. Any inclusion of such criticism is summarily removed, usually with some disparaging remark about the critic in question . This has been going on for several years, both before and after the subject's death. Some newcomer will land upon the page, wonder why none of the criticism is mentioned, add a properly sourced sentence, only to be reverted within hours (or even minutes). Kindly help us out here. Sincerely, Nutez (talk) 11:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The sentences you refer to were nowhere remotely close to properly referenced. Quite the opposite; they relied on opinion pieces by unknown authors with no academic credentials whatsoever. Your heading for this section is not neutral. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:55, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

QED: more disparaging remarks towards Mr. Fisk's many critics. Oz Katerji is not unknown, on the contrary: he is one of the most respected on-the-ground reporters in the Middle East, with excellent media outreach (he has published in various reputable outlets). If we were to use your criterion for inclusion, we would have to jettison a whole lot of the positive reception as well. Balance, you see. Nutez (talk) 12:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

More evidence-free assertions: "most respected". When they are not published by reliable sources, are published as opinion pieces and express opinions, posts need secondary coverage to indicate they are of any significance. That Katerji lacks any credentials that might position him as any kind of expert is a simple fact: if he is keeping his recognised scholarship hidden, that is unfortunate: the far more likely reality, and what we must assume given no evidence to the contrary, is that he has none.

If you wish to remove reception that is also from opinion pieces by non-experts published by far-from-the-mainstream websites without secondary coverage, that you view as positive, go right ahead. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:24, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Academics aren't the only people whose opinions are inclusion-worthy in biographies. Mr. Katerji is an on-the-ground journalist with huge media outreach in respectable outlets. My point being that Mr. Fisk's article ought not read like a hagiography, with only positive comments, given his reputation for "fisking". Nutez (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

You're right that academics are not the only people whose opinions ought to be included, nor have I suggested as much. But subject-matter experts are almost always academics, and Katerji is not a subject-matter expert. We would only include the opinions of someone who is not an expert if they are published in an RS (i.e. news organisation obituaries, not opinion articles), or referred to by a third party in an RS. That has not occurred in this instance. If it were true that Katerji has "huge media outreach" we would expect some RS to comment on his expressed views. It appears he has little to no media outreach; his views on the topic are not considered significant in secondary reliable sources. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

If it is not written by a subject-matter expert whose publishing record accord him any weight to have his opinions noted, then it needs to show that secondary reliable sources treat the opinion as worthy of consideration. No secondary source covering Fisk has considered Katerji's views as even approaching important enough to merit the briefest mention. So neither does Misplaced Pages. nableezy - 13:56, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It is unfortunate when partisan editors, who evidently wish to attack a figure they dislike, think that the addition of any negative opinion, no matter how obscure the author or website, is deserving of mention on Misplaced Pages. We rely on secondary sources, and occasionally the views of subject-matter experts. Editor Nutez in a section immediately above has made some pretensions about subject-matter experts. None of the sources or authors remotely fit this description. None of the views expressed have any secondary coverage, anywhere. Misplaced Pages is not merely a collection of blog posts and one-man websites dug up on the internet; anyone can buy some server space. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:31, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Oz Katerji is a freelance reporter/activist that has no academic qualifications whatsoever. His Twitter following has no bearing on his expertise, he has no publications in peer-reviewed journals or by well regarded academic focused publishers. Beyond that, the idea that we should take the most reactionary and absurdly hysterical commentary from some random op-ed and use it in a biography in an encyclopedia is asinine. Katerji's opinion of Fisk has been treated seriously by no secondary source covering Fisk. Nobody cares that Katerji thinks Fisk is a "fabricator and a fraudster", and it is an absurd abuse of WP:DUE to stick that opinion in to Fisk's biography. There certainly is a NPOV issue here, and it is an editor attempting to misuse a biography to POV push his poorly sourced views. nableezy - 13:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have a strong view on Katerji's inclusion (although I think that the other deleted material about Syria and Arabic is very much noteworthy). The argument against Katerji's noteworthiness here is the lack of secondary coverage, but we include positive evaluations of Fisk that are have not been cited in secondary sources. My understanding of our neutrality policy is that whether Katerji's comments have due weight should be assessed on the basis of whether the outlets he is commenting in (in this case The Critic) are considered reliable so we can see what the balance of reliable sources say.

I think the issue of academic qualifications is completely a red herring: Fisk has a degree in Latin and a PhD on Ireland during WWII, but nobody would dispute that he is a subject matter expert on late 20th century Lebanon, on which he has no academic qualifications. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:46, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Bobfrombrockley for your thoughtful remark. My thoughts exactly wrt academic qualifications: that's neither here nor there. It also quickly morphs into a type of personal attack on Mr. Katerji , where his motives for writing the article is called into question. The aspertion by User:DeltaSnowQueen that it is somehow a hit piece that could only be written after his death (Mr. Katerji frequently criticized Mr. Fisk during the latter's lifetime) is frivolous, and constitutes an egregious breach of our BLP and edit summary policy (even if Oz Katerji is not yet portrayed in the encyclopedia). Also, @Nableezy: I am a female editor and prefer she/her pronouns. Thank you for respecting this. Nutez (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

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