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Talk:Joseph's Tomb

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The contents of the Arson attack at Joseph's Tomb page were merged into Joseph's Tomb on 26 June 2018. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Sources

In the heart of Nablus, the biblical Shechem located about 40 miles north of Jerusalem, Palestinians took control of Joseph's Tomb after days of fierce fighting. Under the Oslo Accords, the tomb was considered a holy site where Jewish young men were to be allowed to pray and study the Torah. After the takeover last October, Muslims immediately converted Joseph's Tomb into a mosque, complete with a freshly painted green dome.

The Muslim Public Affairs Council, while siding with the Palestinian peoples right to defend their land and Al-Aqsa Mosque, condemns the demolition of Joseph's Tomb that took place on Saturday, October 7. The destruction of any house of worship violates the principle of preserving the sanctity of synagogues, temples, mosques or churches (see Quran 22:40).

Joseph, sheikh yousef & Guy Montags reverts

The article currently states:"Joseph’s Tomb is a shrine in Ancient Shechem in the West Bank. It is traditionally considered to be the burial place of the Biblical patriarch Joseph and is located in Nablus city. Joseph's body was taken from Egypt during the Exodus and later reinterred in Shechem."

The article before Guy Montags reverts stated: "Joseph’s Tomb is a shrine near Nablus city in West Bank, it is traditionally considered to be the burial place of the Biblical patriarch Joseph and is located in the Samarian city of Shechem.Many archeologists believe that the site is a few centuries old and possibly containing the remains of a Muslim sheikh named Yossef. According to the Jewish texts, Joseph's body was taken from Egypt during the Exodus and later reinterred in Shechem (Joshua 24:32)."

In my edits on 4th of september, i changed the following details:

  • "is a shrine near Nablus city" instead of "in Ancient Shechem in the West Bank"
    • i did this because i dispute that it is located _IN_ Ancient Shechem, why? read further.
  • "and is located in the Samarian city of Shechem.Many archeologists believe that the site is a few centuries old and possibly containing the remains of a Muslim sheikh named Yossef" instead of "and is located in Nablus city"
    • i did that because according to the context, being located in samaria is the traditional consederation! (who's tradition, i didn't touch that topic).
    • Yousef is indeed the arabic spelling for joseph, but Sheikh Yousef is defenetly not Joseph the patriarch. in arabic texts, sheikh was never associated with Joseph, since Joseph in Arabic Christian & Islamic texts is a prophet or patriarch, not a sheikh!

So, i belive that the version that was before Guy Montag reverted is a more objective one! AFAIK no one disputes the fact that Joseph's Tomb is near the current location of nablus city! but is it in Ancient Shechem? ie is it a part of the Ancient Shechem? the jewish virtual library says that there exist a subset of archologists who belive the site is only a few centuries old :) ! and thus being the tomb of patriarch joseph and being _IN_ Ancient Shechem is disputed!

The Palestinians' gun-fire

From the entry: "On May, 2007, the Breselov hasidim visited the site for the first time in two years and prayed under gun-fire from the Palestinians." From the source: "A Palestinian gunman opened fire at the escorting troops during the service and soldiers fired back, hitting the gunman."

Miserably poor editing at lead

The 2nd sentence is apparently oversourced (refs 2 throught to 7), but actually not sourced at all. The mess is absolutely incredible, even by I/P standards.

  • The "local medieval sheik Yusef Al-Dwaik" seems to be a name either made up or maybe mistransliterated from Arabic or Hebrew (?), not present in any of the accessible quoted sources.
  • There is however a sourced Yūsuf Dawiqat, an 18th-century sheikh. Is he one and the same with said Al-Dwaik? And is 18th-century "medieval"? The old story: were there any "Middle Ages" in the Levant, other than during the European Crusader states?
  • Ref 2: p. 1239 is actually pp. 1239-40.
  • Ref 3: Lidman (2016) can only be Lidman (2015).
  • Ref 4: "Conder & 2004 (a), p. 74": there is no "Conder & 2004", neither (a) nor otherwise. Conder wrote the one book that can be meant here alone. There is however a "Conder & Kitchener 1882". Or a Conder (2004) , a 2004 reprint which is not accessible online, and the 1891 edition (full view on Google!) says smth else (on page 63, not 74): "both Jews and Samaritans offer burnt-offerings at this shrine", so nothing on Christians or Muslims (see original edition, p. 63, with only 1 occurrence of "venerated" in a Jerusalem context). So where does the precise quotation ("venerated by the members of every religious community in Palestine.") come from? Another 2004 source, lost while copying & pasting? Made up?
There are several refs "Conder & 2004 (a)", indicating "pp. 291–292, 74–75" or no page at all, and there's also a "Conder & 2004 (b), pp. 63–64". The latter is superfluous (see below), probably a repetition of (a) from a different edition. The mess has no end.
Conder & Kitchener is from 1882, and there is nothing on those pages dealing with anything near Nablus.
Searching for the quotes, I finally found them at Conder (1878), Tent Work in Palestine, p. 74 (maybe also 75), with 291-92 dealing with Christmas in Bethlehem...
It's from vol. 1 out of 2, an info that was crucially missing. Any permutation of possible mistakes not actually made?
  • Ref 5: Pummer (1993) is not accessible online (it apparently used to be), so I can't check. Maybe this?
  • Ref 6: "Twain 2008, p. 553" is referenced, but not listed anywhere. Innocents Abroad?
  • Ref 7: The Times of Israel mentions no sheikh.

So either the now non-accessible Pummer (1993) mentions a "local medieval sheik Yusef Al-Dwaik", or this is an untenable name & period.

I can't repeat what I think of whoever messed this thing up, or else I'd be banned from Wiki forever. May he RIP. Arminden (talk) 14:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Arminden: Since you've looked long and hard at all the sources, I say dispense with the material as you see fit if unverified. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
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