Misplaced Pages

:Featured article review/Restoration literature/archive1 - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Featured article review | Restoration literature

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Geogre (talk | contribs) at 02:20, 27 February 2007 (→FARC commentary). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 02:20, 27 February 2007 by Geogre (talk | contribs) (→FARC commentary)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Restoration literature

Review commentary

Original author et al aware. Messages left at UK notice board and Books. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Lacks inline citations. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T06:04Z

For a lot of the Eng. Lit. period articles and related, I think Harvard has been used. Could that be done here? Marskell 09:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I think inline citations are better since they tell you what reference is citing which sentences, but I guess I can't dissuade others from using Harvard. LuciferMorgan 09:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Harvard does the same thing (Smith, pp. 1-3). Marskell 09:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It has parenthetical references, and footnotes are not an FA requirement. Additionally, even inline citations in general are not required. You're barking up an imaginary tree. See the talk page to the article, as well, for some of how references to outside works were handled in the article. It is an omnibus article. Geogre 11:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
So it has parenthetical references eh? If so, where are the page numbers? All it has is a list of books when I checked. LuciferMorgan 14:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
See the thread where you lambast "the FAR fanatics"? He he.
The page has parenthetical references for the primary material, but none for any of the secondary sources listed as references. I wouldn't expect many are needed for an overview of a non-current topic, but there are places. "...that king's presence and personality permeated literary society to such an extent that, almost uniquely, literature reflects the court." Would a (see, for instance, Smith pp. 1-3) hurt here? Marskell 11:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Greetings from Bishonen, your Guide to the World of Spirits, now channelling Geogre, who can't currently log on to Misplaced Pages. He has asked me to post this reply to Marskell:
Marskell has a valid question. However, Restoration literature,like Augustan literature and the other omnibus articles I wrote, was, I hoped, an example of what a good encyclopedia article should be. It had a thesis and presented it honestly, with multiple discussions to back up that thesis. In other words, like a good article, it set forward a proposition and proved that proposition through the discussion that followed. Additionally, an author who leads on a massive article like that one and who has read all of the references (and, of course, between you and me, a great many more) is, by nature of such reading alone, if none other, an "expert" in terms of composition of the article. He or she should take a position. In other words, finding a single source to back up that statement would be difficult. I cannot cite myself and any work I may have done along these lines, nor would, but, at the same time, it's one of those statements that distills what "everybody" notes, one way or another, from Christopher Hill to E. P. Thompson to Paul Fussell. It's a statement that I think is a bit pithier than what most folks make but says what they say. Bishonen, speaking in the voice of Geogre (scary!), 14:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
This whole section of Misplaced Pages is becoming worrying, first rate pages such as this are being seized on and held to account for not being written in precisely the way someone who probably knows nothing about the subject would have written them. We are not all going to write our pages in the same way, with the same layout or reference in the same way. Restoration literature has a complete list of references and there are "inline citations" in the article, but they're parenthetical reference. It is pointed out quite correctly on the talk page WP:REF only requires that articles be referenced and footnotes are not mandatory unless a source is quoted. We should be judging articles on their quality not the number of footnotes they contain - This article is first rate. Giano 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh, I see I have already missed my chance to be first off the block.
Let me say for starters that this is one of the most complete, best written - in short, most excellent - articles on the whole of Misplaced Pages. If an article like this is not featured, we may as well give up and reconcile ourselves to creating the best encyclopedia on Pokemon and internet slang that the slashdot has ever written. At least this review will introduce it to a wider audience.
We recently had this very same complaint ("lacks inline citations") about the similarly excellent Palladian architecture (Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Palladian architecture), and it seems a bit pointless to plough the same ground a second time. But I suppose we must...
No, this article has no dinky footnotes (shock horror! call the police!) but it does have inline citations where appropriate by way of parenthetical references. That is sufficient. Pace Giano, "footnotes are not even necessary where a source is quoted" (Smith 1999, p.1, emphasis added). -- ALoan (Talk) 12:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree totally with ALoan, Giano, and Geogre's statements, but unfortunately the norm for FAR these days is to require extensive in-line citations in order to retain FA status. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T13:48Z
Oh, gee, late to the party. Is there anyone left to notify? Mattb, without having looked at this article, I'll point out that disagreement over inline citations shouldn't be confused with sourcing an article to "oral history and tradition from groundskeepers"; the latter isn't about a lack of inline citations, rather a lack of reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest this is removed from FAR unless there are any concrete objections to it keeping its FA status other than the lack of inline citations. From mattb's comments on the talk page this review looks decidedly pointy. Yomangani 14:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Untrue, I'm merely trying to help hold FAs to the standards that I perceive to be norm now. I obviously don't agree with this norm, but I can accept it if there's no support for changing it. Please don't assume that this is a result of my being upset about my own FARs (a ridiculous suggestion; I was the one who nominated them). Am I wrong in saying that inline citations are a requirement for FAs now? If so, by all means remove this FAR. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T14:32Z
      • Mattb, since your userpage says "he would have probably been better off as a history or English literature major", please give us specific examples of statements you want cited (note, I haven't yet read the article, but since you're the expert, your help would be appreciated). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Criterion 1. c. is concrete last time I checked WP:WIAFA. I 110% disagree with Yomangani on that point, and would heavily protest its FAR removal.
The Palladian architecture FAR was a pathetic farce, and one of the most unfunny jokes on Misplaced Pages. It's by no means excellent, nor is this. I'm frankly disgusted of the kind of joke that specific FAR was, and this one will seem to be. I hope Marskell isn't bullied this time into closing this one; by the way, and when people ask this time for specific statements that need citations I'm perfectly willing to give them - even though I'll be falsely accused of WP:POINT. 1. c. isn't met here, it's in black and white. Don't think I'll be bullied into keeping quiet like last time.
Oh, and before anyone goes on about Harvard citations, blah blah blah, there isn't any whatsoever in the article. The "References" section has just a list of books - no page numbers, no nothing, and even Harvard citations list page numbers. Finally, before anyone suggests I read WP:CIVIL (like is their two-faced, hypocritical trend), I recommend them look further into themselves before hypocritically accusing me. This is all I have to say on the subject - this isn't round two of the bullshit debate on inline citations, this is a review of whether this article meets criterion 1. c. This doesn't. LuciferMorgan 14:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this is a lovely party you guys have going on here. I was going to contribute some two-faced bullshit or other, blah blah blah, but never mind, the to-do list is too long anyway. Bishonen | talk 15:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
Lucifer, I don't recommend adding fact tags; it's Mattb's nomination, and his userpage says he's proficient in the topic—let him do it. The problem with the Palladian FAR was that the nominator himself didn't back up the request for citations; let Mattb back it up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Aye, and the last time with the Palladian FAR a bunch of people were bullied around, and Marskell ended up wrongly closing the FAR. It seems the same suspects from that FAR are now trying to get this one closed also, and if I have to point out specific statements that need citation to avoid that happening, I will. This article fails 1. c., and I don't see why this FAR should be closed when a ton of other articles have had to strive their backsides off to meet 1. c. LuciferMorgan 14:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, WP:DICK has been mentioned; it would have been less of an issue if the original nominator had backed up the request for citations. Mattb wants citations, Mattb knows the topic; Mattb, please provide examples where citations are needed. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Well long as this one doesn't end up being wrongly closed; I'll keep an eye on the page. I hope Mattb doesn't end up getting pushed around - it's something I disagree with and don't tolerate. LuciferMorgan 14:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Lucifer, I see no-one abusing you, hypocritically or otherwise. I see you arriving on this page full of hostility. Please tone it down and try and argue your point with some logic. Regarding your allegations Marskell was not bullied, The Palladian architecture FAR was not a pathetic farce, it was merely an argument that you lost. You say Palladian architecture and Restoration literature are " by no means excellent, nor is this" while I'm not going to comment on the quality of Palladian Arch in my view this is excellent. I don't come down hear to the basement of Misplaced Pages very often, but when I do all I seem to see is you shouting. Please try to improve your debating skills. Giano 18:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It would be untrue for me to claim significant proficiency in this area (my user page doesn't indicate WHY I would've been better off as an English lit major, and this isn't about me). However, per your reasonable request, here are a few that might be cited:

  • Lead: "In general, the term is used to denote roughly homogeneous styles of literature that centre on a celebration of or reaction to the restored court of Charles II." -- Says whom? I agree with this statement, but the unacquainted might not.
    • "Thus, the "Restoration" in drama may last until 1700, while in poetry it may last only until 1666 and the annus mirabilis; and in prose it might end in 1688, with the increasing tensions over succession and the corresponding rise in journalism and periodicals, or not until 1700, when those periodicals grew more stabilised." -- Need some citations for these very particular statements.
  • Under "The restoration and its initial reaction": "When Charles II came to the throne in 1660, the sense of novelty in all forms of literature was tempered by a sense of suddenly participating in European literature in a way that England had not before."
    • "Charles II was a man who prided himself on his wit and his worldliness." -- Should be easy to cite
    • "He was well known as a philanderer as well." -- Known by whom?
  • "The Restoration is an unusual historical period, as its literature is bounded by a specific political event: the restoration of the Stuart monarchy." -- A very important point; deserves a citation
  • "His Gondibert was of epic length, and it was admired by Hobbes." -- Provide a citation sourcing Hobbes' admiration

I can continue if you wish, but I don't want to clutter up this page unless you really want me to find every statement that should be cited. Other than this citation issue, it's a most excellent, thorough, and well written article. A bit of citation work and I'm sure this can retain its FA status. Let's not villify me, I'm only trying to uphold the same standard that is being retroactively applied to many FAs. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T15:03Z

  • No villification intended, Matt - just pointing out that talk is cheap; reasoned action on difficult cases is harder. If you bring an article to FAR for lack of citation only, you should be prepared to back up the citation needs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. If I really need to help point out every statement that might be cited, I'll gladly do so. However, I do think the other authors can extrapolate a bit in figuring out which factual statements should be verified in-line. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T15:16Z
      • Well, I hate English almost as much as I hate architecture (should be evident from my tortured prose); I'm happy to put cite tags on medical, engineering, math, political or bio articles for example, but not here. I suggest you see how those requests go, and then add more as work progresses.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
You know, the traffic in Dubai makes for a bad day. And I just knew I'd log back in and find a fucking mess on this review.
  • I very much hope matt didn't post this as an exercise in point, but I will AGF and not remove the review. Remember, it's four weeks—at the worst nothing happens to the content, at best it improves (there's no perfect article, after all).
  • And this is an excellent article.
  • "...written in precisely the way someone who probably knows nothing about the subject would have written them." Giano (and anybody and everybody), please shelve statements of this sort. It's insulting, obviously, and you'll only ever be able to say "probably" because this is the internet and you could be posting to the Pope or a trained dog. Further, that Misplaced Pages is maximized for readers over editors, and a general audience over specialists, is a long-standing principle; the people who know "nothing about the subject" matter as much as the people who know a great deal (an ideal review would have both types commenting). It's excellent that this was written by someone with expertise in the topic, but it's still fair for someone to ask "can you unpack and/or source this cause I don't get it". To that end:
  • I do think a group of a well-placed "see, for instance" notes would be good for an article covering this much ground at this level of generality. If everybody has said something, point to a spot that has said it well or at length. But perhaps discussing where to do that should wait until we get past the existential questioning of FAR that has (inevitably) come up.
  • Oh, and Marskell, we've also gone over this; I think Palladian architecture getting closed was a joke, and no matter how many times you repeat your reasons for closing that one, I still think they happen to be rubbish. Many people didn't even comment because of people throwing their weight around on that FAR, and it was pathetic. Let's get one thing straight; this article currently fails criterion 1. c., and has time to improve it. If it doesn't end up meeting 1. c., it should get closed. I happen to think all the other closes you've ever made were correct, but that one definitely wasn't. And I clearly, 110% remember picking out specific statements that needed citation, only Giano point blank refused to cite them.
These are my opinions, and I apologize in advance to Marskell for my opinions regarding the Palladian FAR. LuciferMorgan 00:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • As for Giano saying for me arriving on this page full of hostility, perhaps he should remember the bullshit crap he pulled last time with Palladian architecture (but he does remember, only conveniently forgets) - oh, but silly me, I forgot, every time he gets in trouble he actually gets his admin friends to help him out of bother. Silly of me to forget that oversight. In fact, I'm surprised they haven't popped over already to fight his corner - this FAR is early though, so I expect an appearance. Improve my debating skills? That's a laugh - as for FAR being "the basement of Misplaced Pages", you and your circle throwing your weight around are the basement of Misplaced Pages. I've been told via different sources about you, your antics and your Misplaced Pages friends bailing you out of trouble all the time, and I won't let you push me around like you did last time. LuciferMorgan 00:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • LuciferMorgan, so far I have seen you violate NPA and AGF to a degree I have rarely seen except with trolls. You state you "will not tolerate" mattb being "bullied" or "pushed around" - wth is your issue? Disagreement is not "bullying" or "pushing around." Further, your incredibly rude comment to Giano about "bullshit crap" is precisely that - trolling. Finally, you insult every admin who has ever viewed Giano in a positive light by your blanket assessment of "Giano's admin friends" - do you, in fact, have anything to do besides attempt to pee on people's toes here and start a fight? This is FAR, please confine your comments to addressing any concerns you have with the article, and attempt to restrain yourself from attempting to start a fight with your fellow editors. KillerChihuahua 14:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I would hope that nobody is intending to start an altercation here; it would be very unfortunate if anyone were to engage in any sort of inflammatory behavior in the course of this review. I strongly suggest that everyone here keep the fact that we're all working together to create a great encyclopedia in mind, and act in a courteous and dignified manner. Kirill Lokshin 04:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Looking at Lucifer's eloquent comments perhaps it would be a good idea if he was prevented from editing this page for a while. I shall not be responding to Lucifer's baiting here or anywhere else on this occasion. I have made my valid point on this review, so there is nothing more for me to say on the subject. Giano 07:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have nothing else to say on the subject either. Time and time again, the point I made above has been proved right. And if you felt sufficient cause for my blocking, you'd only inform your friend Bishonen to block me, who happens to also unblock you whenever another admin blocks you. I'm not falling for your bait either. LuciferMorgan 07:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

LuciferMorgan has apologised to Bishonen for the remark immediately above here. -- ALoan (Talk) 00:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

ALoan, I find your implication quite misleading. LM has apologized to me, yes. Not AFAIK to Giano, the person he's principally attacking above. Bishonen | talk 14:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
I take your point and have amended my comment above (although I think the main thrust of that comment was to expand the range of his ire, from Giano and Marskell to include you). It would be nice for LuciferMorgan to actually retract the comment that he made about you here, like Paul August requested some time ago.
In case there is any doubt, I agree with Yomangani, KillerChihuahua and Kirill Lokshin that many of LM's comments above ("pathetic farce", "bullshit crap", "rubbish") fall far below the standard of debate that I would expect to see here. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Section break 1

I didn't open this FAR to ignite a powder keg. Can we get back to talking about the citation problem in this article rather than engaging in this arm waving contest? If I understand correctly, an objection to adding citations to this article is that there are several subsidary articles linked that contain additional references. While that's fine, there are still many statements in this article that should be cited in their own rite. As has been mentioned, there's no way to dodge the fact that FAs require in-line citations now. -- mattb @ 2007-02-07T17:38Z

The article is referenced at the end...does every FA on wiki have to look like a college term paper? I don't accuse anyone of bad faith, and I almost universally use cited refs for all my work, but there is no policy demanding I do so, nor is there a policy saying that FA's must use footnotes or inline citations to my knowledge. I would like to see the policy that demands that FA's have inline cites.--MONGO 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "FAs require inline citations now" is true, but misses half the point; FAs require inline citations where appropriate, which is sufficiently vague as to admit a huge range of interpretations. This wording has been fairly consistent over time (the word "appropriate" was added two years ago today, incidentally). If you asked me to evaluate this article in terms of the requirements actually laid out in the featured article requirements, I would say it more or less meets them in its current state. At the same time, however, the standards on inline citation which are practically applied at FAC and FARC have become stricter, especially in the last 6-7 months. This article probably does not meet them simply due to its low density of specific citation.
  • Whether this increased strictness results in better featured articles, and whether it makes sense in light of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, are two questions which don't have conclusive answers. The fact that the standards have historically evolved by creeping upward in the individual FAC rooms, rather than through a broad discussion at the criteria page and explicit amendment of the criteria, means there is no obvious consensus behind any particular interpretation. That "FAs require in-line citations" is evident, but the vagueness of that criterion means it is not obvious whether this article falls afoul of it. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm just concerned that an excellently written article that is referenced will either require the author(s) to have to retrieve all the sources and comb through them to find precise references if fact tags are peppered everywhere. I don't dispute that the cited refs are now "expected", only that since this isn't a scientific treatise with tons of facts and figures, it doesn't seem to me that not having cited refs is sufficent grounds for removing this from the FA ranks.--MONGO 22:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, WP:WIAFA says "Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations ...; this involves the provision of a "References" section in which sources are set out and, where appropriate, complemented by inline citations." It previously required "extensive use of inline citations" - there is discussion in the early talk page archives (here and here). Some of Filiocht's comments from two years ago are pithily relevant ("Is this an encyclopaedia or a set of academic papers? If the former, then inline references are inappropriate, if the latter, lets change the name." ... "Over-referencing gets in the way of most people who use an encyclopaedia"). It is also a perennial topic at WT:FAC (such as this from April 2005).
Nothing, as far as I am aware, tells you when it is "appropriate" to add inline citations. WP:V simply requires that "any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source" but does not say how that should be done. WP:IC does not help very much. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Could we workshop (perhaps off this page) specific places where inline citations are appropriate? Or is this article perfect? Marskell 22:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
To add, as the last was terse: editors above aren't arguing for an academic paper or for an encyclopedia article, exactly. They're arguing for something equivalent to a section introduction in the Norton Anthology. Fair enough--but even the Norton Anthology has explanatory notes. There are specific spots in this article that could use them. Marskell 22:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Marskell asked earlier about a workpage, but no one responded; shall we clear the popcorn from the lobby on the talk page and use it? I don't want to type up my requests, comments, finds and questions about specific citations needed on this page, as it has already become quite long. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to participate in this if the article editors are. So far I'm not buying any of the arguments that this article is exempt from the need for citations, however. -- mattb @ 2007-02-11T00:57Z
I've come up with a list of concerns/questions, and will type them up when work gets underway. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone would argue that it is exempt from the requirements, but it is certainly possible to argue that it meets them. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's wait for Geogre to say more. Marskell 14:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to say that I was very impressed with the quality of this article. As a literary scholar, I am often dismayed by the quality of the literature articles on wikipedia. When I began writing my own articles (I usually end up writing pages all by my lonesome), I was shocked by the citation requirements. In academic writing, one does not cite EVERY claim - certain claims are so well known or accepted that there is no need to cite them. I understand that wikipedia needs to establish its legitimacy in the world, though, and one way to do that is to prove that its articles are verifiable down to the last detail. So, I pushed up my sleeves, piled up my books and put in a staggeringly high number of references. Like many of the commentators above, I believe that this article should be retained as an FA because of its quality, but if wikepedia is going to succeed, it is going to have prove itself. It is still at that stage. Perhaps someday it won't have to anymore. One can only hope. In the meantime, whoever wrote the article (I take it, it is primarily one person), should indeed dust off his Christopher Hill and add in the references (tiresome as it may be). Awadewit 11:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would say that having to add a lot of citations and references is a pleasant thing, but that's simply the benchmark for featuring an article nowadays. It's a good thing in some ways, even if it does make writing a bit more annoying. -- mattb @ 2007-02-19T14:39Z
  • Move to FARC — the article still lacks inline citations; no work has been done on the article (despite the fact that there's been plenty of bickering here, which frankly, I couldn't care less about). There are also some very minor prose issues, such as vauge terms of size and perhaps some misplaced formality. Those parentheticals should be turned into notes, and two copy-editors should take this opportunity to give it a quick tune-up if needed. It's a very nice article, and a lot has gone into it, but it still needs to be modernized. I understand a lot of people prefer parenthetical references, and I was taught in high school that they were superior, but the overwhelming majority of articles do not use that system. If there is not going to be consensus to parentheticals, then at least give this article a quick fixing as aforementioned. Either way, let's face the fact that the citation system is not a big deal, and shouldn't have resulted in all this bickering. — Deckiller 11:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Move to FARC per Deckiller's reasoning. LuciferMorgan 03:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern is citations (1c). Marskell 10:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove FA status. Sadly no work has been done to address the concerns. -- mattb @ 2007-02-24T17:20Z
  • Unfotunate Remove — 1c. — Deckiller 13:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Nothing wrong with this page whatsoever. Giano 13:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: The concerns were rejected, but the article is a Featured Article. Geogre 14:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove per criterion 1c, which is part of the featured article criteria the last time I checked. Standards have evolved and improved since this was nominated. As for the concerns being rejected, yes they were - nobody did the work and the concerns are still there. LuciferMorgan 23:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. A first rate article. Paul August ☎ 03:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This isn't an appropriate use of FAR as far as I'm concerned. To me me this is like chopping down entire forests because a few deviant (and rather insignificant) trees fail to please everyone. / Peter 10:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I think this is exaggeration. Honestly consider whether this article in its current state would pass through FAC again. Without some kind of inline references to verify many of the factual statements, it would not receive support to pass. It's not our practice to allow old articles to be grandfathered in to their FA status. -- mattb @ 2007-02-26T13:32Z
How can you possibly know that? I would certainly vote for it, as would, I suspect, many others. Giano 13:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, I'm not sure this is the right question to ask. It assumes that the interpretation of standards applied at FAC is 100% correct, which might not be the case. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove - Yes, it is a first rate article, I like it when reading it, but unfortunately this article does not satisfy WP:WIAFA (1.c) to retain FA status, as has been concerned in the FAR review above. To be more specific, and just for examples, I like to know at least one pointer to the source of the Historical context and content section. It's a compeling story, but is it verifiable? In the Top-down history section, it sounds an observation asserted by the editor to me by reading the following sentences: "Therefore, a top-down view of the literary history of the Restoration has more validity than that of most literary epochs. "The Restoration" as a critical concept covers the duration of the effect of Charles and Charles's manner. This effect extended beyond his death, in some instances, and not as long as his life, in others.", if there are no inline citations. — Indon (reply) — 11:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Thank you for explaining what I've been unable to say; inline citations improve verifiability, and FAs need to show Misplaced Pages's top quality in all aspects, including verifiability. — Deckiller 11:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
      • And they also alienate non-academics and needlessly distract the reader from the text when applied gratuitously, which now almost has the status of hard policy thanks to all those general "not enough inlines"-objections in FAC:s and FAR:s. Usually by people who wouldn't be caught dead actually looking up any of those sources. How often does anyone really object on account of excessive use of footnotes? And don't tell us we don't have those kinds of articles all over the place. Those are prime examples of highly inappropriate use of footnotes. Peter 12:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Peter, I don't ask editors to litter the article with footnotes for every statements. Am I "inappropriate" by asking only one pointer to the source of the History section? — Indon (reply) — 12:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I look up sources on some articles actually, and I echo what Deckiller and Indon feel. LuciferMorgan 15:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Re the two related threads above: not to bias the closure with many days left, but my opinion is that it should be removed if nothing happens to it and then immediately returned to FAC. This article fails the interpretation of 1c that has been imposed on apx. the last 200 FAR/C closures, and to keep it would mean a re-interpretation of the criteria through this process. If that is to happen, it should happen at FAC, the main FA page, not here. Marskell 14:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. If the criteria that we have been using for FAR needs to be revised, it should be tested on FAC per your comments. -- mattb @ 2007-02-26T15:09Z
Comment This is not a support for keeping, but it's a strong oppose to the opposers. I love that passive voice! It "has been applied" for 200 articles. By whom? Anyone ever heard of the appeal to tradition? You might want to look in logical fallacies for it. Facts are fact, and 1c doesn't say what you folks think it does. However, FARC doesn't have the power to resubmit a FAC. Some people think 1c means "footnotes," and some people read it and see that it doesn't mean "footnotes." Seems like consensus would need to be determined in order to remove this article. There isn't a consensus on "1c means footnotes," so this can't be removed from FA status. Work on convincing people or going through the policy process, but don't try to proclaim by fiat. Utgard Loki 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about, TBH. No one opposing has mentioned "footnotes". Marskell 21:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Nobody here has tried to claim that 1c requires footnotes. That's just a straw man that has been brought up several times. If you scroll up and read a bit, you'll see that parenthetical references (ala Harvard) are fine as well. The issue is that this article lacks inline citations for many of its assertions, not that it lacks footnotes. Please save your trivializing our concerns as a narrow interpretation until you've read what we're actually asking for. -- mattb @ 2007-02-26T19:23Z
How would you characterize that interpretation of 1(c)? It would be useful, if we intend to implement that interpretation universally, to actually put it into the criteria and see if there is consensus for it as a general proposition. If there is, it would then be trivial to bring this article back to FARC and remove it. This would seem preferable to your suggested course of action. Contrary to your statement, IMO, a keep result here would not be redefining the criteria. On the contrary, a remove result would redefine the criteria since it would imply that the "appropriate" level of citation is subject to some particular external standard, above the discussion among the participants in the FAC/FARC. A keep result would simply affirm the existing notion that the appropriate level is subject to discussion. (Of course, this assumes that the sentiment here is indeed that the citation level is appropriate. I myself have not had the chance to take a very detailed read of the article.) Christopher Parham (talk) 22:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, that would be ideal and very much appreciated Indon. As we (should) all know "Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge." This page is, in large part, only descriptive and the primary works are cited in-line. But the analysis needs citing—forget FA, the content policies say so. The history section has been noted thrice, and there are other spots: "If "Restoration literature" is the literature that reflects and reflects upon the court of Charles II, Restoration drama arguably ends... " and subsequent, for instance. Marskell 17:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
If those arguing against 1c feel I and others are wrong, I welcome them to resubmit this to FAC and see how it fares... LuciferMorgan 18:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
  • You will be releived to know Lucifer, that there seems little chance of that happening . I think the chances of you being able to turn your attentions to pages of this calibre again are very slim indeed. Giano 22:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
How is that relevant to this discussion? Loudly lamenting won't help anybody. May I suggest you folks try my approach: don't worry about the FA process any more. I no longer aim to write FAs because of the level of citation required, but that doesn't mean I can't still write good articles. Don't think you're the only folks who have had FA badges removed from their hard work because the standards now include inline references. -- mattb @ 2007-02-26T23:45Z
  • Keep inline citations are not a compulsory requirement for FA's, the article is one of wikipedias best. While we're here - who judged consensus from the FAR? Reading the above, it hardly seems that there was a significant majority in favour of moving this to FARC. --Mcginnly | Natter 00:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I didn't make that decision, but if I had to venture a guess, it would be because the author of the article basically stated his intention to do nothing to address the concerns. -- mattb @ 2007-02-27T00:05Z
    • And I would respond to Mattb with, "So?" Is that what FAR is about? I have to be contrite? I have to please everyone who has anything to say? I wasn't aware that that was part of things. I disagree with the concerns. I regard them as wholly invalid. Those things that could be improved I probably will improve, but on the timetable that my work and volunteering allows. Is the big, scary FAR going to make me bend a knee and wheedle? Nah. So, if all it takes is any unhappy person to de-list a featured article, I have some serious unhappiness with the FA's of the last "200." I would happily object to useless footnotes, to clutter, to ungrammatical sentences passing by the "copyeditors" who live at FAC, etc.
    • Now, where things can be improved, I will improve them, but these do not include if/then causality statements that are simple matters of logic and not of citation. It's stunning to see people afraid of a conclusion, and I can only rejoice that I do not have to deal with such timorousness. On the other hand, the people who are unhappy with this article are straining and struggling to come up with something/anything with which they can batter it. Why? Is it my "ego" or theirs? Why should they care? Do they know of any errors in the article (there is one)? Do they know of any conclusions not widely reported in the secondary literature? Do they have any reason to suspect that there are false claims being made? Do we need to put a footnote up to prove that Ohm's Law is V/I/R? Do we need a footnote to say that the Restoration is the reaction to Charles II's restoration to the British throne? These are the same level of absurdity.
    • I do not object to having review by people who do not know the field, of course. I do object to being ordered about and told how I should write, how I should speak, and what I may say by people so unaware of the area that they do not even understand what is meant by top-down history, much less have the capacity to assess whether or not that is a controversial subject. Why have I announced that I'm not interested in making wholesale changes in dressing on the article to keep them happy? Guess.
    • When one does not know the score entirely, it's good to confer. Look at this article's translation history. Has it been translated into other wiki's? How have they responded to it? Are we the only ones blessed and enlightened enough to know that this isn't an FA because there are no footnotes? Are those other wiki's cursed with ignorance for honoring it? Again, could the hubris perhaps, just perhaps, reside nearer to your home than all that? Regardless of how you answer these questions for yourselves, my answer is unambiguous. You don't like it. So? You don't like my response. So? No one has to like things. We just have to act properly and dispassionately. Geogre 02:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep of course. "A featured article exemplifies our very best work..." - enough said. -- ALoan (Talk) 01:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment — I am extremely offended, surprised, and worried by the lack of professionalism being displayed with some of our better article writers, some of whom I looked up to for inspiration when I started becoming interested in the FA process in January 2006. FAR reviewers have been called "moronic" and "lunatic", yet we have not name-called any of you; all we have done is provided peer review for the articles that you have worked on, among numerous others. Getting the work reviewed and compared with current standards is part of being a Misplaced Pages editor, and it should not detract from the article writing. Heck, if I had been like that, I would've stopped contributing in August 2005; I quickly learned that FA status does provide an incentive to get your name known, contribute to the project's creditbility as a whole, and get the right to brag on the userpage (which is in some way the driving force behind humanity), but that's where it stops. Do not hold back on this project if you are purposely holding back; it only pointlessly hurts the project, the community, and yourself. It only serves as a speedy defense mechanism for the ego. Heck, when I have time later in the year, I plan on putting several FAs I've worked on through the review process to give them the modernized treatment they deserve to prevent such arguments like these from happening at an inconvienent time.

The key is to suspend egos and work on the articles (note the absence of the word "my" or "your"). Approach all articles because they belong to the project and the community as a whole, not the individual. Please consider these words and realize that we are not intending to destroy "your" work; we are intending to bring up one of Misplaced Pages's articles to generally accepted standards (that is, standards outside just one group of established editors). If you want to write articles on personal standards alone, then you have picked the wrong project and medium, although I truly hope an awakening occurs in several editors that this project as a whole is worth more than the article ownership.

Misplaced Pages parallels business in many ways, and in business, one cannot dwell in the past. One has to move along with the currents and accept change as it comes; only then will someone realize the full benefits. Not a single edit was made to this article during this review (except one by Marskell). How will you know how much the article will be improved if you have not actually bothered to work on it? This review has not been used to improve the article; instead, it's turned into a political slugfest, and all of us should be ashamed with ourselves for letting it not only get this far, but nobody stepping up to the plate and at least making this article better even the slightest while on review. However, heads are in nostalgia or stubbornland, and efforts to take advantage of this review even in the slightest have not been seen. Several FARCers have offered a compromise; add more inlines, but not necessarily footnotes. It's a very reasonable request and something that should be taken with honor, knowing that people care enough about this work to want to see it be attributed properly!

You see, people get it wrong when they say that the "FARC lunatics" want to destroy Misplaced Pages's featured content. I've been on both sides of the fence; I know both perspectives. The reviewers have become able to put their egos aside when working on an article from a community accepted standard; this allows them to feel even better once the work is done, knowing that they have satisfied the whole, which may actually be better than satisfying the personal wishes. In essense, the reviewers in general know both sides (the writer and the reviewer), and so they might have reached such a level that they sound too harsh or rude, although it is not their intention (they just misjudge others reaching that level of ego suspension).

Misplaced Pages helps people realize that life is about making compromises and going with the accepted principles, or starting a large motion to change those. It is indeed a reflection of real life (or what used to be called real life; the internet is indeed real life now), and it is not just a distant outpost now. Perhaps Misplaced Pages has become too much of a wide community for some to handle, which is understandable and regrettable. I don't want to sound like a "conform of be cast out" kind of person, but in a sense, that is a true statement; we must learn to conform while injecting our ideas to forward the norm. Good norms change over time; they don't stay the same, as we've seen with Misplaced Pages referencing. So it is pointless to hold articles back when you may have to face the fact that if you've done that work, you might as well place it; then, the decision becomes to stay or not. Please think this through. — Deckiller 01:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)