Talk:Zbigniew Brzezinski - Misplaced Pages

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Possible article to use as a reference

This was sent via email as a possible source to expand the article:

The Brzezinski Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur (1998)

I make no claims as the reliability or veracity of the article. I'm simply passing it along. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:48, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Mr Brzezinski's religion?

I remember, in an interview, Brzezinski talking about his Roman Catholicism. I can only find limited info re this online, most of it from unreliable sources. I suggest info may be important enough to merit being added. Daedalus 96 (talk) 21:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Explanation

How could his father Tadeusz Brzezinski help Jews escape from the Nazis if he and his the family left Europe in 1938? The war started in 1939. Must be explained.

According to the source: "While in Leipzig, Germany, before World War II, Brzezinski became involved in efforts to rescue European Jews from Nazi concentration camps.". But yeah this could be clarified. Volunteer Marek 06:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Chronology and semi-overlapping sections in the article

There is a bit of overlapping chronology within the article with different subheadings. The subheader of "Government" under "Biography" is a partial overlap with "National Security Advisor". Meanwhile, "After power" in "Biography" is a partial overlap of "Later years".

However, the subheadings in "Major policies" are good, they should just also be in the "Government" section. Really the whole article is Brzezinski's biography so there doesn't need to be a biography section header. Merging this out would add to the flow of the article. Rauisuchian (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Polish-American vs Polish-born American

On other Misplaced Pages editions such as in French or Russian, he is described as an American of Polish origin. Which I believe is more fitting, while he was born in Poland, he studied in Canada and the US and made his career in the US, and is remembered for that. As far as I know he did not work in Poland, although I could be wrong. --Spafky (talk) 10:37, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

This is English Misplaced Pages, which should not draw conclusions from other language-Wikipedias, especially Russian under current circumstances. Bit nonsensical really. I believe that the Polish-American identity was based on citizenship rules under Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Biography. Personally, I find 'Polish-born' and 'Polish-American' quite synonymous so I do not mind. Merangs (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Afghan Trap Theory NPOV

The "'Afghan Trap' theory" section reads more like an apologia of Brzezinski than a serious discussion of the motives behind supporting the mujahideen. Poorly formatted, only one citation (specifically a defense of Brzezinski) in over 300 words (I think)? I feel like this was added to deflect criticism rather than sincerely address the matter. Feels like a poor addition and violating NPOV. Brokenwit (talk) 02:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Here's an alternative view https://monthlyreview.org/2022/04/01/mr-073-11-2022-04_0/ Not necessarily any more reliable, but at least a basis for a careful comparison of versions. I'd be willing to do some work on this, but it seems like a big job, especially as it's so controversial. I wonder who else would be interested? Jalfro (talk) 09:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, apologists for American Hegemony. I added the following (expanded):

Quote:

In a December 26, 1979 declassified memo to President Jimmy Carter Brzezinski stated:

We should concert with Islamic countries both in a propaganda campaign and in a covert action campaign to help the rebels.

In a 1998 Brzezinski Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, he stated:

"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention."

Tulsipres (talk) 05:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

See Wikiquote on this apparently mistranslated/apocryphal, if not downright fabricated, statement. No such note to President Carter has ever been found. In fact, Brzezinski's December 26, 1979 memo to the president says nearly the opposite of what is claimed above: "Accordingly, the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan poses for us an extremely grave challenge, both internationally and domestically. ... we should not be too sanguine about Afghanistan becoming a Soviet Vietnam ... "TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

WIKIQUOTE
https://en.wikiquote.org/Zbigniew_Brzezinski#Disputed

"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention."

Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris (15-21 January 1998) : Brzezinski has http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-04252012-175722/unrestricted/WHITE_THESIS.pdf repeatedly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjAsQJh7OM denied] having said this, and

https://books.google.com/books?id=ToYxFL5wmBIC&q=deep+skepticism#v=snippet&q=deep%20skepticism&f=false no such memo exists.

According to Tobin, Conor (April 2020). "The Myth of the 'Afghan Trap': Zbigniew Brzezinski and Afghanistan, 1978–1979". Diplomatic History. 44 (2). Oxford University Press: 238–239. doi:10.1093/dh/dhz065.:

"The French interview has had a major impact on the historiography, being used as the almost sole basis to prove the existence of a concerted effort to lure Moscow into the 'Afghan trap.'

Title

First, the title is deceptive. It reads (in translation): 'The revelations of a former adviser to Carter: "Yes, the CIA came into Afghanistan before the Russians ..."' Quotation marks and ellipsis indicate that this is a direct quote from Brzezinski and implies CIA operations inside Afghanistan before December 1979, which does not fit with the historical record.

Although insisting on the accuracy of the interview, the journalist has since conceded that the quote in the title was not actually from Brzezinski but was 'invented' by the editors, which casts doubt on the subsequent text.

published remarks were heavily edited

Secondly, the published remarks were heavily edited and Brzezinski has denied the article's accuracy on numerous occasions, asserting that it was 'not an interview, but excerpts from an interview that was originally supposed to be published in full but which they never checked with me for approval in the form that it did appear.'

Wikiquote editors own opinion

There are, however, significant problems with it as an historical source.

It is also likely a casualty of translation—being conducted in English, translated and printed in French, and reconverted to English—with the original statements becoming skewed and distorted in their edited and translated form.

Additionally, many of the interview's claims are unsupported by documentary evidence. For example, Brzezinski has denied he ever sent a note claiming the covert aid would 'lead to a Soviet military intervention,' and no such note, nor references to it, has ever been found. Nowhere else has Brzezinski ever referred to a systematic plan for the 'Afghan trap' and neither in his subsequent actions, writings, interviews, or public remarks on the topic has he shown any satisfaction that his strategy had worked. It is highly questionable that Brzezinski would attempt to bolster his reputation and disclose information on a secret plan to ensnare Moscow in an Afghan quagmire in just one foreign interview and then subsequently and repeatedly deny it.

THE MEMO

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB396/docs/1979-12-26%20Brzezinski%20to%20Carter%20on%20Afghanistan.pdf December 26, 1979

OCR:

MEMORANDUM

THE WHITE HOUSE

WASHINGTON

December 26, 1979

MEMORANDUM FOR: THE PRESIDENT

FROM: ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI

SUBJECT: Reflections on Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan

I will be sending you separately a proposed agenda for the NSC meeting on Friday, and it will focus on both Afghanistan and Iran. In the meantime, you are receiving today's SCC minutes on both subjects. This memorandum is meant merely to provide some stimulus to your thinking on this subject.

As I mentioned to you a week or so ago, we are now facing a regional crisis. Both Iran and Afghanistan are in turmoil and Pakistan is both unstable internally and extremely apprehensive externally. If the Soviets succeed in Afghanistan and if Pakistan acquiesces, the age-long dream of Moscow to have direct access to the Indian Ocean will have been fulfilled.

Historically, the British provided the barrier to that drive and Afghanistan was their buffer state. We assumed that role in 1945, but the Iranian crisis has led to the collapse of the balance of power in Southwest Asia, and it could produce Soviet presence right down on the edge of the Arabian and Oman Gulfs.

Accordingly, the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan poses for us an extremely grave challenge, both internationally and domestically. While it could become a Soviet Vietnam, the initial effects of the intervention are likely to be adverse for us for the follow ing dotnestip, and international reasons:

Domestic

A. Ther'SR^^' intervention is likely to stimulate calls for more inapVEKli': Military action in Iran. Soviet "decisiveness* will be contrasted with our restraint, which will no longer be labeled as prudent but increasingly as timid;

B. At the same time, regional instability may make a resolution of the Iranian problem more difficult for us, and it could bring us into a head to head confrontation with the Soviets;

C. SALT is likely to be damaged, perhaps irreparably, because Soviet military aggressiveness will have been so naked;

D. More generally, our handling of Soviet affairs will be attacked by both the Right and the Left.

International

A. Pakistan, unless we somehow manage to project both confidence and power into the region, is likely to be intimidated, and it could eventually even acquiesce to seme form of external Soviet domination.

B. With Iran destabilized, there will be no firm bulwark in Southwest Asia against the Soviet drive to the Indian Ocean;

C. The Chinese will certainly note that Soviet assertiveness in Afghanistan and in Cambodia is not effectively restrained by the United States.

Compensating Factors

There will be, to be sure, some compensating factors:

A. World public opinion may be outraged at the Soviet intervention. Certainly, Moslem countries will be concerned, and we might be in a position to exploit this.

B. There are already 300,000 refugees from Afghanistan in Pakistan, and we will be in a position to indict the Soviets for causing massive human suffering. That figure will certainly grow, and Soviet-sponsored actions in Cambodia have already taken their toll as well.

C. There will be greater awareness among our allies for the need to do more for their own defense.

A Soviet Vietnam?

to be too sanguine about Afghanistan becoming badly organized and poorly led;

B. They have'hd~TOhc‘tuary, no organized army, and no central government — all of which North Vietnam had;

C. They have limited foreign support, in contrast to the enormous amount of arms that flowed to the Vietnamese from both the Soviet Union and China;

D. The Soviets are likely to act decisively, unlike the U.S., which pursued in Vietnam a policy of "inoculating" the enemy.

As a consequence, the Soviets might be able to assert themselves effectively, and in world politics nothing succeeds like success, whatever the moral aspects.

What is to be Done?

What follows are some preliminary thoughts, which need to be discussed more fully:

A. It is essential that Afghanistan resistance continues. This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels, and some technical advice;

B. To make the above possible we must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid, and, alas, a decision that our security policy toward Pakistan cannot be dictated by our nonproliferation policy;

C. We should encourage the Chinese to help the rebels also;

D. We should concert with Islamic countries both in a propaganda campaign and in a covert action campaign to help the rebels;

E. We should inform the Soviets that their actions are placing SALT in jeopardy and that will also influence the substance of the Brown visit to China, since the Chinese are doubtless going to be most concerned about implications for themselves of such Soviet assertiveness so close to their border. Unless we tell the Soviets directly and very clearly that our relations will suffer, I fear the Soviets will not take our "expressions of concern" very seriously, with the effect that our relations will suffer, without the Soviets ever having been confronted with the need to ask the question whether such loaal adventurism is worth the long-term daj^ge, to the U.S.-Soviet relationship;

F. FinaHra£ve should consider taking Soviet actions in Afghanistan t■ uas..ai.threat to peace.

Daclassified

/Released on 7 /^l/ijj under provisions of E C '2958 by R. Soubers, National Security Council

FINISH

THE REAL NEWS NETWORK INTERVIEW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjAsQJh7OM

Brzezinski stated in an interview:

Robert Gates revealed in his memoirs accurately that before the Soviets staged the formal invasion of Afghanistan but they were already in Afghanistan with Special Forces and so forth we increased military we increase financial assistance to the Mujahideen

it was mostly for the acquisition presumably of weapons and then after they came in when the Soviets came in I did send a personal memo saying yes their entry into Afghanistan at a time of turmoil in Iran and in the whole Persian region in Gulf region as a consequence potentially we have a chance to give the Soviets their Vietnam.

The Real News Network: The interview says this was before...

Brzezinski: well that's not that's not right

Tulsipres (talk) 05:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

References

December 26, 1979 "Reflections on the Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan". George Washington University. Retrieved 28 September 2022. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
The Brzezinski Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur (1998). University of Arizona.

Human Rights as a weapon against the USSR - used today with Russia and China

I added the following to Zbigniew Brzezinski

Brzezinski stated that human rights could be used to put the Soviet Union ideologically on the defensive:

I felt strongly that in the U.S.-Soviet competition the appeal of America as a free society could become an important asset, and I saw in human rights an opportunity to put the Soviet Union ideologically on the defensive....by actively pursuing this' commitment we could mobilize far greater global support and focus global attention on the glaring internal weaknesses of the Soviet system.

Tulsipres (talk) 05:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Zbigniew Brzezinski. National Security Adviser to Jimmy Carter, US President (1977-1981). Power and Principle. Chapter 5.

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