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Talk:Government of Australia/archive 1 Talk:Government of Australia/archive 2

Verifiable sources

So far nobody has provided verifiable sources for Adam's claims. I see a lot of hand-waving, I see a lot of abuse, I see a lot of bluster, but I do not see any checkable sources. The best we have are a couple of constitutional authorities supporting the "Queen as sole head of state" view, a minority position.

The article is incorrect in claiming the question of who is Australia's head of state is a matter of convention. I have shown that there are three different views, each supported by multiple informed opinions.

The article is incorrect in claiming the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. This is Adam's opinion, unsupported by any of the numerous biographies ar reports of the debates during the time our Constitution was drafted.

Adam's third claim, that most authorities see the Queen as head of state has been modified to read that it is a traditional view. I'll accept this, but it needs to be made clear that this is either an outmoded view or the view of the general people rather than informed opinion.

At this point, I see no problem in removing Adam's statements of opinion on the grounds that despite a lot of discussion, no sources have been provided. Do you have a problem with this? Skyring 09:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I moved the above comment here. Do not idiosyncratically reinsert it into the middle of the above section. It was diversionary, unfair and untopical for you to place it there, and sadly, symptomatic of your tactics. Our discourse is over, you have conducted yourself shamefuly, carelessly, and uncollegially El_C 11:36, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any comments on the points above? So far after a week's discussion I see zero support for Adam's "did not occur" claim, though some editors seem to hold out hope for support on the convention claim. Nothing solid, though perhaps research might bring something out. Skyring 11:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the "did not occur" claim. As I have repeatedly pointed out, this is Adam's personal opinion and has no place here. After much discussion nobody has come forward with even a hint of support for it. If anyone wants to keep it, please provide a verifiable source. Skyring 12:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

El_C has provided a source, but with respect, I cannot find anything in it to back up Adam's claim about what was passing through the minds of the founding fathers. If you have something, spell it out, otherwise I'll regard it as a red herring. Skyring 12:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So what is Skyring's explanation for the fact that the Constitution does not specify who Australia's head of state was to be? I point out that the Constitution does not provide for the offices of Prime Minister or Speaker of the House, either, and for the same reason - because Griffith simply assumed the framework of the Westminster Parliamentary system, including the Queen as head of state. It was only the fact that Australia was to be a federation that made a written constitution necessary at all (New Zealand didn't have a constitution at all until recently, because they simply copied the pure Westminister model.) My "source" for these propositions is the Constitution itself. Most Constitutions provide for a head of state. Australia's does not, and it is the historian's job to explain and interpret that fact in the light of his knowledge about the period in which it was written, which is what I have done in the paragraph under discussion. Adam 21:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The term "head of state" was not in general use at the time of Federation. You won't find another constitution of the same period that uses the term. You won't find the term in the reports of the constitutional conventions and debates that occurred in Australia at that time. You are trying to cram thoughts into the minds of our founding fathers that were simply not there. Elsewhere, you said Since the term res publica is Latin, it is quite ahistorical to try to apply it retrospectively to the states of ancient Greece. You said it was "a silly argument". Silly when someone else uses an anachronism, but it's quite the done thing when you do, hmmm? Be fair.

And once again, you are not supplying a verifiable source. You are giving your opinion. Other editors here are at least making an honest attempt to give sources, and I respect them for that. Prominently displayed on every edit page it says "Please cite your sources so others can check your work.". I commend these words to your attention. Skyring 23:06, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Despite User:El_C's dogged shilling for Adam, his source for Adam's "axiomatic" claim was useless. I haven't seen anyone provide a verifiable source for this statement. On the chance that I missed it, could someone please provide a verifiable source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out.. If it cannot be sourced, it doesn't belong in the article. Skyring 23:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You just can't touch a keyboard without resorting to misrepresentation, can you? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be difficult for you to refrain from abuse, Adam, but I urge calmness and contemplation. Please.Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say the term "head of state" appears in other constitutions, I said "Most Constitutions provide for a head of state." And they do. The US Constitution provides for a president, for example. The question therefore is, why doesn't the Australian Constitution provide for a head of state? My answer is as given in the article. What's yours? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I take your point, but you are arguing backwards. And once again you do not provide a source for your opinion. How many times do I have to point out that when I ask for a verifiable source and make a heavy-handed gesture towards that line below reading Please cite your sources so others can check your work. you invariably respond with abuse and evasion and a lot of hand-waving? Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(Yes yes I know I am arguing with him again when I said he should be ignored. I can't help myself. Adam 00:38, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC))

You should calm down, do a bit of research, and if you can't find a source for your statements, do the right thing. It's usually less embarrassing to admit that you are running on empty before it's repeatedly pointed out to you. And if you can find a verifiable source, then do the right thing and put it up. Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Let the record show that Skyring has no answer to my question other than his usual obfuscation. Adam 03:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Heh! More bluster. My opinion doesn't matter, Adam. I'm not the one being repeatedly asked to back up their statements in the article.

Let the record show that after repeatedly asking for a source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. I didn't get one. User:El_C claimed to provide one, a claim that was false. I haven't seen any other verifiable source on this point. Skyring 04:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)