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Talk:Government of Australia/archive 1 Talk:Government of Australia/archive 2

Verifiable sources

So far nobody has provided verifiable sources for Adam's claims. I see a lot of hand-waving, I see a lot of abuse, I see a lot of bluster, but I do not see any checkable sources. The best we have are a couple of constitutional authorities supporting the "Queen as sole head of state" view, a minority position.

The article is incorrect in claiming the question of who is Australia's head of state is a matter of convention. I have shown that there are three different views, each supported by multiple informed opinions.

The article is incorrect in claiming the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. This is Adam's opinion, unsupported by any of the numerous biographies ar reports of the debates during the time our Constitution was drafted.

Adam's third claim, that most authorities see the Queen as head of state has been modified to read that it is a traditional view. I'll accept this, but it needs to be made clear that this is either an outmoded view or the view of the general people rather than informed opinion.

At this point, I see no problem in removing Adam's statements of opinion on the grounds that despite a lot of discussion, no sources have been provided. Do you have a problem with this? Skyring 09:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I moved the above comment here. Do not idiosyncratically reinsert it into the middle of the above section. It was diversionary, unfair and untopical for you to place it there, and sadly, symptomatic of your tactics. Our discourse is over, you have conducted yourself shamefuly, carelessly, and uncollegially El_C 11:36, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any comments on the points above? So far after a week's discussion I see zero support for Adam's "did not occur" claim, though some editors seem to hold out hope for support on the convention claim. Nothing solid, though perhaps research might bring something out. Skyring 11:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the "did not occur" claim. As I have repeatedly pointed out, this is Adam's personal opinion and has no place here. After much discussion nobody has come forward with even a hint of support for it. If anyone wants to keep it, please provide a verifiable source. Skyring 12:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

El_C has provided a source, but with respect, I cannot find anything in it to back up Adam's claim about what was passing through the minds of the founding fathers. If you have something, spell it out, otherwise I'll regard it as a red herring. Skyring 12:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So what is Skyring's explanation for the fact that the Constitution does not specify who Australia's head of state was to be? I point out that the Constitution does not provide for the offices of Prime Minister or Speaker of the House, either, and for the same reason - because Griffith simply assumed the framework of the Westminster Parliamentary system, including the Queen as head of state. It was only the fact that Australia was to be a federation that made a written constitution necessary at all (New Zealand didn't have a constitution at all until recently, because they simply copied the pure Westminister model.) My "source" for these propositions is the Constitution itself. Most Constitutions provide for a head of state. Australia's does not, and it is the historian's job to explain and interpret that fact in the light of his knowledge about the period in which it was written, which is what I have done in the paragraph under discussion. Adam 21:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The term "head of state" was not in general use at the time of Federation. You won't find another constitution of the same period that uses the term. You won't find the term in the reports of the constitutional conventions and debates that occurred in Australia at that time. You are trying to cram thoughts into the minds of our founding fathers that were simply not there. Elsewhere, you said Since the term res publica is Latin, it is quite ahistorical to try to apply it retrospectively to the states of ancient Greece. You said it was "a silly argument". Silly when someone else uses an anachronism, but it's quite the done thing when you do, hmmm? Be fair.

And once again, you are not supplying a verifiable source. You are giving your opinion. Other editors here are at least making an honest attempt to give sources, and I respect them for that. Prominently displayed on every edit page it says "Please cite your sources so others can check your work.". I commend these words to your attention. Skyring 23:06, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Despite User:El_C's dogged shilling for Adam, his source for Adam's "axiomatic" claim was useless. I haven't seen anyone provide a verifiable source for this statement. On the chance that I missed it, could someone please provide a verifiable source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out.. If it cannot be sourced, it doesn't belong in the article. Skyring 23:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You just can't touch a keyboard without resorting to misrepresentation, can you? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be difficult for you to refrain from abuse, Adam, but I urge calmness and contemplation. Please.Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it is Skyring's misrepresntation and intellectual dishonesty that I consider the real abuse here. I did not cite that source for Adam's "axiomatic" claim, which a most cursory glance reveals. It was designed to show Ross' argument of the Queen being considered the head of state – that's it. Skyring should refrain from aggregating all editors —which is to say, every single editor involved in these discussions— who oppose his poorly-sourced (for the purpose of demonstrating scholarly and otherwise consensus), partisan, 'odd' and non-mainstream constitutional opinions. Sheesh (again). El_C 22:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say the term "head of state" appears in other constitutions, I said "Most Constitutions provide for a head of state." And they do. The US Constitution provides for a president, for example. The question therefore is, why doesn't the Australian Constitution provide for a head of state? My answer is as given in the article. What's yours? Adam 00:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I take your point, but you are arguing backwards. And once again you do not provide a source for your opinion. How many times do I have to point out that when I ask for a verifiable source and make a heavy-handed gesture towards that line below reading Please cite your sources so others can check your work. you invariably respond with abuse and evasion and a lot of hand-waving? Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(Yes yes I know I am arguing with him again when I said he should be ignored. I can't help myself. Adam 00:38, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC))

You should calm down, do a bit of research, and if you can't find a source for your statements, do the right thing. It's usually less embarrassing to admit that you are running on empty before it's repeatedly pointed out to you. And if you can find a verifiable source, then do the right thing and put it up. Skyring 02:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Let the record show that Skyring has no answer to my question other than his usual obfuscation. Adam 03:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Heh! More bluster. My opinion doesn't matter, Adam. I'm not the one being repeatedly asked to back up their statements in the article.

Let the record show that after repeatedly asking for a source for the view that the Queen was the head of state of all parts of the British Empire was so axiomatic that it did not occur to the authors of the Constitution to spell this out. I didn't get one. User:El_C claimed to provide one, a claim that was false. I haven't seen any other verifiable source on this point. Skyring 04:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah. Try taking the link, buddy. Skyring 08:52, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A verifiable source. Adam 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Have another go, brother! No, I can't stand it! You've completely ballsed up a great joke. Here's the source you wanted.

OK. Seriously now, we're going to have to work together on this, Adam. I'm not really out to make your life a misery. As I've said a couple of times now, you're a better writer of this sort of stuff than I am, and you probably work best when you aren't under the pressure of a nit-picking old curmudgeon like me breathing down your neck, but I'm not going to stand for seeing Malcolm Turnbull's dishonest line spread all over Misplaced Pages. Nor am I going to let Sir David Smith's equally partisan views dominate the article. Both have their good and bad points, both have their followers and bitter enemies, but the one characteristic shared by both is that they aren't telling the whole story.

As I look around at other nations, particularly other Commonwealth Realms, I am more and more impressed by just how unique Australia is. Unlike almost every other nation on earth, our Constitution is the creation of the people rather than parliaments. We came together in a People's Convention with popularly elected delegates to thrash out an agreement, we all voted on it and we are the only people who can modify it. We own our Constitution in a way that few other nations do. And of the few nations that have Governors-General standing in between the Queen and the Government, Australia is the only one to give him the important executive powers in his own right. In every other nation that has a Governor-General, the Queen could do what Sir John Kerr did in 1975. But not in Australia. Our situation is unique. The Queen is powerless.

So the Queen is less of a head of state than she is in the UK or other nations such as New Zealand or Canada, and the Governor-General is more of a head of state than in those same nations. I personally don't think it's accurate to describe either as the sole head of state because there are, as the Parliamentary Research office paper points out, very good reasons for saying that both are head of state. Tilt the scales too far one way or the other and you have an unbalanced and inaccurate article, and neither of us wants that. Skyring 13:07, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But why doesn't every other country article detail how the role of their head of state differs from everyone else's? There's no such thing as a cookie-cut, "normal" head of state role. Different states and different heads within a state have different ideas about the role. But the suggestion that this somehow disqualifies a person as head of state doesn't logically follow. It's an either-or proposition - you're officially credentialled as head of state or you're not. By all means, we can discuss the relative importance of Queen and GG in the constitutional system, but not to the extent that the article seeks to go against conventional wisdom and take a minority POV. Lacrimosus 21:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We have had this discussion half a dozen times already, but I will state my position on this one more time. I take the following propositions as axiomatic, and thus not requiring "sources":

• In every independent state, with one or two minor exceptions such San Marino, there is a single identifiable person who is generally regarded as the head of state, whether or not they are designated as such in a written constitution, and whether or not their position is executive or ceremonial.
• Elizabeth II holds the title Queen of Australia. In every country which has a king or queen regnant, that person is generally regarded as the head of state, regardless of what constitutional functions they do or do not perform.
• No other person or position in Australia has ever been formally accorded the title or status of head of state. The Queen is thus the "default" candidate for head of state.
• The Constitution says "A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty's representative in the Commonwealth, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen's pleasure." This makes it perfectly clear that the authors of the Constitution saw the Queen as standing at the head of Australia's constitutional structure.
• Since Australia was not a fully independent state in 1901, but part of a wider constitutional entity (the British Empire), the constitution does not create a position of head of state. But since Australia has now become a sovereign state, it must in doing so have acquired a head of state. Since the constitution has not been altered to make any other person the head of state, and since the Parliament has accorded the Queen the title Queen of Australia, it follows that the Queen of Australia is now Australia's head of state.
• The Governor-General does not claim to be a head of state - he has said that the Queen is head of state. The Governor-General, ministers, MPs and officials take oaths of alliegance to the Queen. Legislation is passed in the Queen's name. The Queen appears on Australian coins, banknotes and stamps. All these are evidences that the Queen is generally regarded as the head of state.
• Arguments that the Governor-General performs all the functions of a head of state and that the Queen is powerless etc etc are not relevant to this discussion, which is about who is Australia's de jure head if state.

Adam 22:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)