Talk:David Myatt - Misplaced Pages

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Allegations

I have reverted the edit for several reasons.

In regard to the Star Game the relevant quote from the text you referenced is that it was "invented by David Myatt in 1975 and subsequently used by the esoteric group the Order of Nine Angles."

Myatt in his A Matter of Honour text - qv. https://davidmyatt.wordpress.com/a-matter-of-honour-2/ - explains that there is "only a possible borrowing, imitation, adaptation, plagiarism" involved, and that "as an early advocate of copyleft, I have never been bothered by plagiarism or by others using and adapting my ideas and my 'inventions', such as The Star Game. Thus there is use and adaptation by others, and possibly plagiarism, but no proof of a direct link."

Myatt also explains that some of his "ideas and concepts - such as acausality and Aeons and Homo Galactica - are and have been used by the ONA". Again, there is "only a possible borrowing, imitation, adaptation, plagiarism" involved.

Thus to ensure a neutral point of view (NPOV) such comments by Myatt should be included were you or someone to restore some part of your edit.

However, unless there are reliable sources which meet Misplaced Pages criteria I'm inclined to not introduce such a contentious issue into the article.

In regard to the reference you gave - Book of Nine: The Collected Works of the Order of Nine Angles - you provided no source so that it cannot be ascertained whether or not it meets Misplaced Pages criteria as a credible source. If you are referring to the self-published work issued by Lulu Press in 2012 by some anonymous person then, according to my understanding of those Misplaced Pages criteria that work is not a reliable source. See https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources.

Thus there is no evidence - from reliable sources - that Myatt wrote such an article as is attributed to him in that anonymous self-published "Book of Nine". Therefore i believe it's justified in not including the assumption that he "did write at least one essay which was published by the ONA under his own name."

If the reference refers to an article or articles in the Lamp of Thoth occult zine then Myatt explains in his A Matter of Honour text and in Part One of his political memoir Ethos of Extremism - qv. https://davidmyatt.wordpress.com/the-ethos-of-extremism/ - how he was, in the 1970s, involved in setting up an occult group as a neo-nazi honeytrap and which group had "a political and subversive intent," and that this subversive and neo-nazi intent "explains many things, including early occult articles with my name - not the name 'Anton Long' - in zines such as The Lamp of Thoth," and also that such articles also contain the name "Anton Long" with no one bothering to ask "why both name and the name Anton Long occur on the same early texts, with the simple answer being that there were two different people."

On balance, to ensure a NPOV, either Myatt's explanations should be included about the articles in occult zines with such article in such occult zines and Myatt's contribution referenced in a reliable source, or - and this is my preferred option - such allegations should not be included until there is a reliable source regarding Myatt's "neo-nazi occult 1970s honeytrap" which involvement echoes his involvement with the secret (possibly government sponsored) paramilitary group Column 88. Pavane7 (talk) 01:34, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Alleged involvement with O9A

Since this is an article about a living person certain criteria apply. In the matter of the Order of Nine Angles it is important give a NPOV which here means giving Myatt's consistent denial equal space, and to state that his involvement with the O9A is an allegation and has not been proven by probative evidence. Merely citing others who in print or online repeat or believe the claim is not evidence but either hearsay or the fallacy of appeal to authority.

What circumstantial evidence that has been presented - e.g by Senholt who is regularly quoted as an authority - is an example of the fallacy of Incomplete Evidence, as Myatt has documented in his essay 'A Matter of Honour'.

In addition, using primary sources such as Myatt's own writings is IMO valid according to Misplaced Pages criteria in an article about a living person. This applies to Myatt's post-2012 claim of having rejected extremism including neo-nazism. Coolmoon (talk) 08:15, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

This discussion again? We had the same discussion in the talk page of the ONA article to the point there was official statement from the arbitration that it's not needed. Nazis don't need to be included for balance. Do you think Nazis are asked if the Holocaust happened and that is included in all related pages for balance? This is a perfect example of WP:UNDUE.

No, this discussion is about the biography of living person which has different criteria. In addition, Myatt has rejected extremism and nazism so still calling him a nazi is an allegation as well. Coolmoon (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

His life, his choices. Evidence for Myatt and the ONA's involvement in theistic Satanism and far-right Neo-Nazi terrorism can be found primarily in Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas (2001). "Nazi Satanism and The New Aeon". Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity. New York City: New York University Press. pp. 215–223. ISBN 978-0-8147-3124-6. LCCN 2001004429., which is one of the academic, reliable sources that I provided in the article. Ironically, the only people in the world who adamantly deny that Myatt is the ONA's leader are him and the ONA members themselves. Who would have thought? GenoV84 (talk) 09:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The item you cite does not provide evidence of involvement, only make assumptions. Goodricke-Clarke assumed Myatt was Long and that he wrote Diablerie. He provided nothing probative in that matter or any other. Ditto with Senholt who claimed the writing style of Myatt was similar to Long's but provided no evidence from forensic linguistics; plus three other academics disputed his claim. Citing him and Goodricke-Clarke are examples of the fallacy of the appeal to authority.

Post probative evidence - admissible in a court of law - from Goodricke-Clarke, Senholt or anyone else that Myatt is Anton Long and founded and led the O9A. Until there is such evidence they remain allegations, and to remove mention of them being allegations is against NPOV in regard to a living person who has consistently denied such allegations. Coolmoon (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Yet, another scholar of religion specialized in the study of Satanism (Introvigne, Massimo (2016). "The Origins of Contemporary Satanism, 1952–1980". Satanism: A Social History. Aries Book Series: Texts and Studies in Western Esotericism. Vol. 21. Leiden: Brill Publishers. pp. 358–364. doi:10.1163/9789004244962_012. ISBN 978-90-04-28828-7. OCLC 1030572947.) and the U.S. military magazine on counter-terrorism (Upchurch, H. E. (22 December 2021). Cruickshank, Paul; Hummel, Kristina (eds.). "The Iron March Forum and the Evolution of the "Skull Mask" Neo-Fascist Network" (PDF). CTC Sentinel. 14 (10). West Point, New York: Combating Terrorism Center: 27–37. Archived (PDF) from the original on 27 December 2021. Retrieved 19 January 2022.) reported the same regarding Myatt's involvement with the ONA and the far-right underground, which is a well-known fact about his life, and the main reason for him being notable. If he was never involved in the ONA and the far-right network, then what did he apologize for? Stealing candies from the supermarket? Come on. GenoV84 (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. GenoV84 (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Possible harm

As it states in https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."

It could be reasonably argued that the allegations of Myatt's involvement with Satanism and the O9A - which allegations he has denied for over forty years - have harmed and continue to harm his reputation. They may also be potentially libellous. Coolmoon (talk) 08:54, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

As I wrote in my earlier reply, Goodricke-Clarke assumed Myatt was Long based on the assumption that Myatt wrote the MS titled Diablerie. He provided no evidence for his assumption, and the MS itself contradicts Myatt's recorded, documented, life in many places. Furthermore, Goodricke-Clarke never bothered to ask Myatt about the matter or about anything else, so it's hardly a scholarly work. For a more balanced view of Myatt, see Koehler, Daniel. From Traitor to Zealot: Exploring the Phenomenon of Side-Switching in Extremism and Terrorism. Cambridge University Press, 2021. pp.153-163, which should be used as a source in the Myatt article here. Coolmoon (talk) 10:13, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Introvigne

In the work cited, Introvigne provides no evidence based on scholarly research for the claim that Myatt is Anton Long and used that pseudonym. He merely repeats what others such as Goodricke-Clarke and Senholt claimed, which claims of theirs again are not based on scholarly research. Introvigne thus commits the fallacy of appeal to authority.

Where is the research based on scholarly sources, such as authenticated original documents, which reveals that Myatt is Long and founded the O9A? There is none. Where are the sources you cite which balance the claims by providing Myatt's side of the story? So far, only Koehler in the work I previously cited. Coolmoon (talk) 10:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. GenoV84 (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Removing Original Research

The citations are full of original research and primary sources that almost certainly don't meet WP:RS (some of which I've removed). Wordpress articles about and/or by David Myatt are not objective or trustworthy sources for information about his life or ideas and in many cases are irrelevant anyway. David Myatt is primarily notable for his contributions to far right and to a much lesser extent Islamist radicalism so we don't need paragraphs worth of material about his views on the etymology of Pathei-Mathos or similar things. Also worth noting that this is a man who has been repeatedly accused of aggressively curating his online image using sockpuppets. Not saying I can provide a RS for that because I can't but it's something to keep in mind for anyone who watches this page. DirtyDiaperDavey (talk) 06:01, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Lead section and early life

Nothing has been deleted with the article IMO only rearranged in line with other articles about living persons.

Since the article is about Myatt not about the O9A the long section about the O9A after the lead seems inappropriate - and also seems to contravene NPOV - especially as there is a link in the lead to the detailed Misplaced Pages O9A article plus the detailed mention of the O9A in a following section. What other articles here about a living person begin with a section not about their early or their personal life but about something they are alleged to be involved with? Example - e.g. does the article about the notorious Aleksandr Dugin begin with his early life or with a detailed account of something such as his alleged links to Putin?

Hence why I have put his early life first and put the personal stuff about Myatt from the O9A section into the personal life section and the stuff about the O9A into the 'occult section'.

Also, why was the link to Myatt's personal website - https://www.davidmyatt.info/ - deleted when even the article about arguably the far more notorious David Irving article has a link to his website? As do many other articles about controversial living persons. Coolmoon (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

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