Talk:Ayn Rand - Misplaced Pages

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This article was reviewed by London Review of Books on 20 May 2009. (Link to review)
Comments: "...Reads as though it has been worked over far too much, and like any form of writing that is overcooked it alienates the reader by appearing to be closed off in its own private world of obsession and anxiety."
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Influence on Israeli politicians

An editor has twice attempted to add material about Rand influencing various Israeli political figures. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I've reverted the additions twice now because of the poor quality of the sourcing for these claims. Claims about living people need solid sourcing. That means third-party reliable sources for facts (not opinion pieces, blogs, etc.) or an explicit declaration by that person. These sources must actually say that Rand has been an influence on their political thinking. Sources that say they read her novels, identified with a particular character, etc., are not enough to claim political influence. Also, social media posts and interviews are acceptably only for what the person says about themselves, not as sources for claims they make about other people. --RL0919 (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

So this means, an article making inferences, such as so-and-so said x, y and z, and Rand said x, y and z, therefore so-and-so was apparently influenced by Rand, does not count and should be treated as speculation. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 15:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

It looks like Ayalet Shaked may have said something specifically referencing Rand, but it's hard for me to tell as it's all in Hebrew. It's important to have English-language references here as this is English Misplaced Pages. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I think Rand's influence on Shaked can be properly sourced. I've added her with The New York Times as the reference. --RL0919 (talk) 03:37, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The influence that Rand has had on politicians outside the US is certainly of general interest. I have had *personal* conversations with Netanyahu on the matter. It can also be seen in following policy changes over recent decades. I think all references should remain, even if they "spoil" the appearance of a "perfect" article. This will allow editors to butress them with more of the "ironclad" references some seek.These references also appear unchallenged in Hebrew Misplaced Pages. They go much-much beyond so-and-so said x, y and z, and Rand said x, y and z ... Avisalon (talk) 06:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

@Avisalon: You need print references, preferably in English. User:RL0919 has given a good example of what to do. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 14:17, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it would be so nice if all sources were in English... Avisalon (talk) 11:21, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Avisalon: Find some, like RL0919 did -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 15:19, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, my concern is not about "the appearance of a 'perfect' article". Removing poorly sourced claims about living people is an English Misplaced Pages policy. I can't speak to what is on Hebrew Misplaced Pages, but over here it has been pretty common for someone to want to insert a claim about Rand influencing this or that person, with very poor evidence to support that claim. We try to get those resolved quickly, either removing the claim or finding a better source to support it. Leaving poorly sourced content in the hope that someone will improve it someday is not a good option for this type of material. --RL0919 (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, private conversations or emails are not the kind of thing that you are allowed to reference on Misplaced Pages. It's hearsay that can't be verified independently. Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.-- Doctorx0079 (talk) 17:58, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Conjecture in Bio

I think it'd be appropriate to delete the following passage from this article's biography, on grounds of conjecture and insufficient evidence:

"Although academic interest in her ideas has grown since her death, academic philosophers have generally ignored or rejected her philosophy because of her polemical approach and lack of methodological rigor."

It only cites a single source and may lead readers to believe Rand might not be as credible a philosopher as some of her contemporaries based solely on the opinions of two authors.

This is misleading, as Rand was one of the most influential and well-known philosophers of the twentieth century in the U.S., and her ideas are not widely "ignored" or "rejected" by today's academic philosophers. That said, they're certainly criticized by many socialists, communists, anarchists, and Marxists. This is to be expected, however, as Rand's ideas are antithetical to many of the presuppositions inherent in those schools of thought. Foucault's work, for example, might similarly be "rejected" or "ignored" by some modern academic philosophers—such as Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman—but these would merely be their opinions.

Moreover, it suggests that Rand's ideas have gained popularity and influence since her death. On the contrary, she was much more influential in the U.S. during her time—having made several appearances on national television and having been the subject of multiple national newspaper articles—and is rarely discussed outside of right-wing libertarian circles today.

I'll leave the article as it appears today to field any objections that others might have. If no well-corroborated objections have been made by 11/9/22 (i.e., one week from today), I'll remove the passage.

All civil discourse (including dissent) is welcomed! 2601:249:1681:15E0:AC3C:6DE7:FFA3:2A (talk) 03:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

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