Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nutez (talk | contribs) at 00:08, 10 November 2022 (→Excessive detail on controversies: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Science and Academia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Medicine Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Analysis of sources for lead article (Please maintain and do not archive)

Malhotra is a controversial character. I have analysed all the independent sources (not those written by the subject himself) in the following table so the lead paragraph can give a balanced reflection of what the sources say. As time goes on and there are new sources and new points to be made please add to the table. Viv Hamilton (talk) 19:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand this table, and separating sources between "Positive Notability" and "Critics" is bound to lead to POV violations. --Hipal (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Biographical Bias

Several paragraphs of the biographical and work history section read like they're written by the subject and are heavily biased. They are not neutral at all and I suggest rewriting to remove much of the glorified fluff. 82.8.55.103 (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Please can you be more specific. Other than the quote about his motivation, as far as I can see, the second and third paragraphs are sourced and referenced from third party sites. Viv Hamilton (talk)

I have added some quotes from the Sarah Boseley article "Butter Nonsense". This section is dealing with Malhotra as a person and his career - the article already has a lot of criticism of his statements under the specific issues in the next section of the article. The issue of balance is that overall organisations tend to give positive recognition of people but there are very few that give negative ones (ignoble and Darwin being some exceptions). So on average for a biography it's not unexpected that the balance of what the Reliable Sources say is positive. There is plenty of criticism of Malhotra out there but most of it is in self-published articles so cannot be used here (there is also plenty of praise for him too in self-published material, which is equally not included in the article). Viv Hamilton (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

This article looks like a government propaganda piece

The article goes on and on about NHS guidance, which we all know leads to an obese population, same for many western countries. No matter this article's editors' opinions about the diet, the article should restrict itself to a couple of paragraphs on the book, and a couple of paragraphs and published criticisms. The rest is just extra fluff.--Tallard (talk) 07:04, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Or a public relations piece. The lede is a mess. --Hipal (talk) 16:34, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I've posted to WP:FTN, hoping for some help. --Hipal (talk) 16:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, placing counter-arguments in an article, especially a BLP, is a violation of WP:SYN. 108.18.156.124 (talk) 21:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

New source

• Gorski DH (3 October 2022). "'I know you are, but what am I?' Dr. Asseem Malhotra rails against COVID-19 'misinformation'". Science-Based Medicine.

Seems like a lot to take in ... Bon courage (talk) 15:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting source. Aseem Malhotra was also recently on the GB News channel and was supportive of the carnivore diet, , he says towards the end that it can "cure" people (he cites Jordan Peterson's daughter). Completely irresponsible. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

New source (2)

• Flynn A (September 2022). "Enquiry into concerns raised by members at ARM 2022" (PDF) ('Lessons learned' review). British Medical Association.

In which the BMA investigate the fallout of Malhotra falsely claiming to have received an award from the BMA chair, and note that he "holds views that are contrary to BMA policy, particularly regarding vaccination for prevention of SARS-CoV-2". Bon courage (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage: I think we need to be careful using a primary source such as this - do you know if this was picked up by any news organisations? From a quick search I couldn't find anything. SmartSE (talk) 09:24, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure. But I'm also not sure it's a primary source – isn't the author/investigator (Flynn) at a remove from the evidence/people involved in the incident? And in any case a BMA publication is surely reliable for its own view wrt Malhotra. Is there anything here you see as contentious? Bon courage (talk) 09:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I think it fits WP:PRIMARY pretty closely - Flynn and the BMA were closely involved in the events. WP:BLPPRIMARY says that we should be very cautious about using primary sources in BLPs. A broader issue about this regardless of whether it is primary or not and why I asked whether anyone else covered this, is WP:WEIGHT. It looks to me like there was some controversy within the BMA about the award and tweet but it doesn't seem as if anyone else took much notice. SmartSE (talk) 09:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, okay - I wasn't aware Flynn was involved in the events. Out of caution I've removed this though I feel what the BMA feels about a doctor's COVID views (which we air) is relevant to the article. Let's see what others think. Bon courage (talk) 11:22, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Excessive detail on controversies

I firmly believe that the article, in its current shape, has way too much detail on the various controversies regarding cholesterol, statins, saturated fat etc. These are of course topics that Mr. Malhotra has opined on, but I don't think it's due to include entire paragraphs on what national health authorities recommend for human consumption in his biography. I do think we ought to describe the pushback Mr. Malhotra has received from various experts in context, but that ought to be more specific regarding the debate he has engaged in, rather than simply repeating what the general health guidelines recommend, which is already duly covered elsewhere in the Misplaced Pages. Nutez (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

My understanding of the policy on biographies is that we should only cite references that actually mention the person, otherwise the content is original research or off topic. I would agree with your removals, I don't think we can include huge chunks of text about what the mainstream guidelines say, only if they specifically mention Malhotra. All that material can be found elsewhere. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:33, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, prolly should be slimmed down. Per WP:PSCI/WP:GEVAL any of Malhotra's numerous nonsenses, if aired, should be contextualized with some sane source. But not to excess. Bon courage (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I've asked for help at WP:FTN. Looks like we're all on the same page. It might be helpful to look for more references (or better use what we have) that clearly reference Mallhotra's viewpoints.

This may only tangentially related: At a glance, I'm unclear if all the non-independent references are being used appropriately, especially his own works. --Hipal (talk) 18:58, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Nutez keeps messing up this talk page, apparently in an attempt to obscure the fact the Malhotra has come out with a load of dubious claptrap in his time. Nutez stop it - it is disruptive and it looks like you're advocating for quackery. Bon courage (talk) 21:04, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage: Please stop the personal attacks. You are derailing a productive discussion by constantly throwing aspersions about my personal beliefs. That is unacceptable. Hyperbolic language like "nonsense" or "{{xt|claptrap}"} is also not helpful to the conversation. Thank you for your understanding. Nutez (talk) 00:08, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

The "Career" section needs to be rewritten from the independent sources. Much of it is a resume, and the quotes are excessive at best. --Hipal (talk) 21:06, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Any objections to removing his two HuffPost articles and the corresponding content? --Hipal (talk) 00:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class Alternative views articles
• Low-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (science and academia) articles
• Low-importance biography (science and academia) articles
• Science and academia work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class medicine articles
• Low-importance medicine articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages
• C-Class Skepticism articles
• Low-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles