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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Binksternet (talk | contribs) at 03:40, 13 December 2022 (→WP:LEAD violation of lead sentence: WP:TEND, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

	Comfort women was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 29, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed

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Should the lead sentence of this article be reworded? If so, how?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is a dispute over yes or no of a rewrite of lead sentence of the current "Comfort Women" article. The content of the dispute is shown in the Talk. We agree that there are two opinions about "comfort women": "licensed prostitutes" and "sex slaves", and also that we have exhausted our arguments. In the current article, the first paragraph reads, "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls forced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Japanese Army ..."　and the writing of "licensed prostitutes claim”is excluded as this basis. To maintain neutrality, shouldn't this paragraph be changed to, for example, "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls to provide sexual services to the Imperial Japanese Army..." ?

The reason for oppositon to the writing of "licensed prostitutes" is based on the claim that the majority of comfort women is sex slaves. There is an objection to "majority of sex slaves" with evidence. Even if they are a minority, wouldn't be against wiki's 5P1 and 5P2 to exclude dissenting opinions ? Please read through Talk and comment. If you have any questions, I will answer them. Eyagi (talk) 05:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I must admit surprise that a 3 week old account knows how to start an RfC... SPAs aren't 禁止 but certainly sus. ほかの利用者名で投稿したことがあるの？ EvergreenFir (talk) 05:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I learned about NPOV atTeahouse, and an adviser commented me to use RfC at NPOV. Eyagi (talk) 07:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

RFC is a pretty common threat in discussions, so I would be a little surprised if a new user wasn't familiar with it. Assuming good faith, it could be that they never created an account on Misplaced Pages until they were interested in a particular discussion or change, or closed an older account in good standing. Considering the user's request, however, this looks more like block evasion. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• Note for editors arriving here via the RFC link here: See earlier discussion on the section above. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:25, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
• Bad RfC The RfC statement is not neutrally worded, short and simple nor does it contain a question. I would suggest this is closed and, if necessary, a better worded RfC is opened. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:18, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Yup. This isn't how an RfC is supposed to be conducted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Corrected to a neutral expression. Eyagi (talk) 01:57, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The 'correction' hasn't solved the problem. Not even remotely. The RfC remains invalid. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:31, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I haven't been involved in RFCs except, occasionally, to add my comments. However, I suggest that the neutral heading at the head of the RFC be reworded to something like, "Should the lead sentence of this article be reworded? If so, how?" It seems to me that it would be more useful to discuss the question at issue than to continue a discussion of the form in which the question is put. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:08, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice. Corrected according to your suggestion. Eyagi (talk) 23:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I still don't consider the question properly formatted. You are making an argument in it ("To maintain neutrality, shouldn't this paragraph be changed...") which is your own opinion on the matter. Frankly though I really can't see this RfC achieving much even without the problem over wording, since it basically asks people to read through a long thread where different sources are cited on an issue, and then asks contributors to chose which ones are correct. That isn't how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. We need to decide whether (a) the differing sources meet WP:RS for the specific issue under debate, and (b) whether the perspectives they offer are widely accepted. We don't cite non-WP:RS sources at all, and how we use reliable sources depends on whether they represent mainstream perspectives. If there are differing opinions, held by a significant proportion of relevant reliable sources, we don't chose between them, we present both arguments, noting the difference of opinion, in the body of the article. The lede isn't a place to present new arguments and/or perspectives, or to make definitive assertions about matters the article body makes clear are under debate. It seems to me that what is being asked for is a change in wording of the lede so it no longer reflects the (apparently well-sourced) material in the article body, which makes it clear that the sources cited broadly support the "forced into sexual slavery" wording. Such a change would be simply untenable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:26, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

We have already discussed the sources of the "sex slave claim" on Talk. I understand that here is not the place to debate. Please post to Talk with the material names you claim to be "the sources cited broadly support the" forced into sexual slavery "and why you support these materials.

As stated in Talk, American scholars have not replied to any of these points for requesting correction of factual errors in McGraw-Hill Textbook by 19 Japanese historians. Eyagi (talk) 05:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I am under no obligation to convince you personally of anything. That isn't how an RfC is supposed to be conducted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

As someone showing up a few days late after being summoned by the bot, I agree that this RfC is improperly formatted per Andy's points. Bsoyka (talk) 00:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree, this should be closed as improper. Doug Weller talk 11:16, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

The user may be violating WP:NORACISM by promoting the denial of Japanese war crimes. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Yoo Hee-nam (1927-2016)

Yoo Hee-Nam died of a heart attack I’m 2016, so the date of her death should be included. Otherwise people may assume she is still alive. WaddlesNostalgia (talk) 12:24, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I added her death date with a supporting cite. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Use of the word "brothel"

The word "brothel" should be replaced in every instance in this article except for references to the involvement of voluntary prostitutes. Prostitutes, by definition, are involved in a transactional activity: money in exchange for sex. The so-called "comfort women", were prisoners and sex slaves who were being held against their will and forced to engage in sex against their will. There is no way they can even remotely be deemed to have been prostitutes. Therefore, the locations where they were held were prisons, or concentration camps, or internment camps; "prisons" likely being the best term. I urge Misplaced Pages to replace brothel with prison or sex prison or some variation that is more fitting. "Brothel" is absolutely the wrong word to use. The definition of the word quite simply disqualifies it from being used under these circumstances. 173.206.82.38 (talk) 04:55, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I see that the Brothel article defines the term as "a place where people engage in sexual activity with prostitutes". not mentioning remuneration except by implication via the word "prostitutes". It might be better to say something like "engage in paid sex" there. If the male always pays, it's a brothel from his point of view. If the female likewise always receives pay, that term might be said to fit. I don't know if or how well the article supports this, but I suspect there was no payment re one or both parties for some fraction of the forced sex encounters. Perhaps the term "comfort station" might be appropriate in this article, with some explanation on first use. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 07:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Verification of the authenticity of lead sentence

WP:LEAD violation of lead sentence

Talk is a discussion page for improving the article. For some reason, the discussion on "Verification of the authenticity of the lead sentence" was closed. At the same time, part of H.Res.121's Controversy article was deleted by Aoidh without discussion. I have asked for an explanation as to why, but have yet to receive a response. The deletion without discussion violates wikipedia's deletion policy.

WP:LEAD stipulates that the lead sentence shall “summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies, and according to reliable, published sources”. The current article excludes the claims of licensed prostitutes, misquotes sources and cites unreliable sources as noted in "Verification of the authenticity of the lead sentence". This lead is clearly violates WP:LEAD. The editor, Binksternet, should openly acknowledge this fact and allow the article to be revised.

Eyagi (talk) 02:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I closed it because it was a lengthy attack on the veracity of sources, and an attempt at a novel synthesis based on your personal analysis, carried on at great length. Other editors are under no obligation to agree with you, and your editing has every appearance of POV-pushing. I remind you again of the arbitration sanctions that are applicable to editors whose behavior disrupts gender-related topics or related discussions. . Acroterion (talk) 02:49, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I understand your point. My explanation was long because we were not able to share information. Please answer this talk of mine. Eyagi (talk) 05:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

You are asking for primary sources to be accepted into the article, asking for us to accept your interpretation of primary sources. This is the same request you have made many times. It will never happen because it is a violation of WP:No original research, a hard policy. Binksternet (talk) 06:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm just stating facts based on publicly available materials. Please specify which parts are WP:OR

You explained that you excluded the licensed prostitutes claim from the article because there are very few licensed prostitutes. I pointed out that the fact is that licensed prostitutes are the majority. Do you accept this fact? If you do not accept, please explain the basis for this in detail.

You also argued that the primary source was a very limited, and introduced Chunghee Sarah Soh's book as a secondary source for the sexual slavery claim. I countered that there were plenty of primary sources and introduced the materials specifically. It is well known that C. Sarah Soh's book criticizes the sexual slavery claim. Eyagi (talk) 00:34, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

You insist that you have the authority to analyze primary sources and make sweeping conclusions. I insist that you are violating the hard policy of WP:No original research. Guess which one of us is correctly following Misplaced Pages's rules? Binksternet (talk) 00:47, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Again, please point out specifically which part falls under Misplaced Pages:No original research. Otherwise, the discussion will not proceed. Eyagi (talk) 07:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you and Aoidh are also editors. Please let me know your opinions on my point. This discussion has nothing to do with gender issues.

EvergreenFir、You seem to understand Japanese. Please comment on whether or not the Japanese language materials I cited are reliable.

No.49 (1944) states that A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers“. For fifty years after the war, it was common knowledge that "comfort women were highly paid professional prostitutes. Fifty years later, R. Coomaraswamy interviewed 16 self-proclaimed former Korean comfort women selected by North Korean government and Korean Council, and concluded that "comfort women were sex slaves." And American scholars followed suit. These people are the "historical revisionists". All of these testimonies violated domestic law and military regulations at the time. Eyagi (talk) 02:26, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Jumping in here with a bit of clarification -- Eyagi, I've changed the typeface in the quote from the report above to clarify what portion there was quoted from that source (). You don't mention, so I will point out that that source also says, This report however deals only with the Korean "comfort girls" recruited by the Japanese and attached to their Army in Burma.. I don't have much time for comment right now, but I do want to say that, though that source might be considered a WP:RS, other RSs express viewpoints which differ in general and perhaps re Burma in particular, and that WP policy requires that WP:DUE be followed in such cases. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 07:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Your point is that the document I cited is about Burma and not representative of Korean comfort women as a whole?

As already explained, at that time, Koreans were one citizen of the Japanese Empire and under the same legal system. The Japanese in this document were Koreans with Japanese names. They were employed in Korea by former Korean restaurant owners. As of 1939, the number of intermediaries (also called recruiters or pimps) between prospective prostitutes and employers in Korea was 197 Japanese and 3,380 Koreans. Intermediaries made a living by mediating the conclusion of contracts between the two parties, earning commissions from both parties. Thus, this number of people is evidence that there were several thousand contracts signed by Korean in 1939. Prostitution without a contract was illegal and subject to police control. This document is evidence of the reality that all Korean comfort women were employed under domestic law.

The following is an excerpt from M. Ramseyer's letter requesting retraction of the paper:”Most importantly, the Japanese government acknowledged in its Kono statement in 1993 that these young women and girls were “recruited against their own will” and “lived in misery at comfort stations under a coercive atmosphere,” and that Japanese “administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments.” This settled fact has been further affirmed by the United Nations, Amnesty International, and the US House of Representatives.”:“1. The framing of the situation as a “contracting” problem without supporting evidence”. As already explained, this letter is an intentional misquotation of the Kono statement and a substitution of logic. The primary source for the claim that comfort women are sex slaves is UN Report. Please compare the above claim with the closed "Verification of the authenticity of the lead sentence" talk peges. Most of the signatories must have read the lead sentence in wikipedeia’s” comfort women”, and signed the letter. Eyagi (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Anybody citing Report 49 must be a WP:SECONDARY source, not a Misplaced Pages editor. Report 49 is a favorite of Japanese nationalist reactionaries, because it seems to cover the topic but it touches only a small fraction. Binksternet (talk) 06:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Your claim has been discussed in a repeat of Talk on 9 June 2022 (UTC). See for yourself the Congressional Research Service Memorandum, p.7. Aoich has removed part of the Controversy on this Memorandum.

“Amenities in the Japanese Armed Forces (1945) is also the primary source in English. Please read along and decide for yourself what is true. Eyagi (talk) 02:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

You are beating a dead horse. You have had this same discussion many times, which is by this time a violation of WP:Tendentious editing. Binksternet (talk) 02:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

No one can erase the facts of history. My Talk is all factual and consistent with wikipedia's policy.

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Misplaced Pages’s policy: information in Misplaced Pages should be verifiable and must not be original research: the phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Misplaced Pages to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist：Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, or experiences. Eyagi (talk) 02:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

You are persistently puffing up small facts into bigger "truths", violating WP:NPOV and WP:NOR as you do so. Your reliance on Report 49 is emblematic of this kind of POV-pushing. You have consistently violated WP:Tendentious editing and are continuing to do so, with unrelenting bias. Binksternet (talk) 03:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

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