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Talk:The Gambia

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

  • RM, The Gambia → Gambia, No consensus, 17 January 2008, discussion
  • RM, The Gambia → Gambia, Not moved, 11 March 2010, discussion
  • RM, The Gambia → Gambia, Not moved, 20 August 2021, discussion

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Requested move 20 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Bada Kaji (talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 09:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The Gambia → Gambia – If "The Gambia" or "Gambia" are both common, then we should change it to "Gambia" to keep the name concise. In addition, this is the name used by many international organizations, such as the International Organization for Standardization. RealIK17 (talk) 08:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Countries has been notified of this discussion.  — Shibbolethink 16:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
Note: WikiProject Africa has been notified of this discussion.  — Shibbolethink 16:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
I highlighted your reply to save other editors from making a similar move request in the future, we had discussions about this over and over again which is a waste of time. Vic Park (talk) 00:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"the" or "The" again

The statehouse.gov.gm site is not working. The Ministry of Interior website https://moi.gov.gm/ uses The Gambia throughout. I would think whoever first wrote 'the' was not doing original research, but simply choosing. So discussing 'The' is not original research. Nor is it a matter of Misplaced Pages style, except inasmuch as we don't call it 'the The Gambia'.--2607:FEA8:FF01:4E54:F88C:FB8F:15AA:615 (talk) 00:04, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed before and there has been no consensus. I'd like to see a consensus because I think the mixed usage we have now looks sloppy.
We should make the decision based on Misplaced Pages's rules. The first rule is: "Generally, do not capitalize the word the in mid-sentence", but there are exceptions. One exception is The Hague; we need to decide if this should be another exception. This comes from Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Capitalization of The.
Misplaced Pages capitalizes less than some sources and more than some sources. We make our decisions based on: "Misplaced Pages does not capitalize something unless it is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources." That's from Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Capital letters.
So what we should do is go out and look at independent, reliable sources to see what capitalization choice "a substantial majority" of them make. Note that the meaning of independent as used in Misplaced Pages is defined at Misplaced Pages:Independent sources and reliable sources is defined at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. One thing that means is that it's not terribly important what the government of the (The) Gambia does because we use sources that are independent of the government.
If I've misunderstood the rules, please point out my errors, but if I've got the rules right, let's discuss, collect evidence, and make a decision based on the rules. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨  02:46, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
  • "The Gambia" is the correct short name for the country. It has been used consistently by the United Nations in their reports and stats. "The Bahamas" is another one, these two countries are special cases which Misplaced Pages editors just have to remember.
Links:
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoG
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gambia-the/ Vic Park (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Largest metro area

"Largest largest metropolitan area Serekunda" I don't know how to fix it, if i could i would, but i don't, this bothers me for no reason, pls fix. 108.176.230.82 (talk) 20:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:42, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 20 December 2022

It has been proposed in this section that The Gambia be renamed and moved to Gambia.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

The Gambia → Gambia – In line with other countries with "the" in their name (e.g the Netherlands redirects to Netherlands). Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 09:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

As an interesting side note, some countries have deliberately avoided using the definite article "the" despite having a plural name (e.g. Maldives, Seychelles, Solomon Islands), again, these are special cases, we just have to remember them. As for the reasons, yes, all of them have reasons, mostly to do with distinguishing itself with another geographical or political entity, or distancing itself from its colonial past etc. We don't need to worry about their reasons, if in doubt, just refer to their official name, if it has "the/The" as a part of their official name, then it will always have "the/The".
Links:
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoG
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gambia-the/
Vic Park (talk) 13:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
It's not comparable. Let me put this way: no one with any vague familiarity with Africa or a geography book writes it "Gambia". It is always "The Gambia". It's a proper term. This proposal is beyond absurd. Please forgive my presumption, but I have a feeling this is probably the first time you've heard of this country. I'd suggest you look around a bit. Walrasiad (talk) 10:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: I've heard of every country and know a fair bit about geography. Yes, I know in a sentence you'd say "the Gambia" (i.e "I live in the Gambia.", I'm Australian but I'm just giving an example here), but you also say "the Philippines" in a sentence (e.g "I live in the Philippines.", again I live in Australia so this is just an example) yet the article is called Philippines. Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
And that's where your error begins. You imagine this is a matter of speech. It is completely unrelated to that. It is the actual proper name of the place. It is written "The Gambia" on maps, articles, books, documents, even datasets and indexes (which need alphabetical ordering) enter it as "Gambia, The". There is no comparison to other countries. Except to "Bahamas, The". It may sound bizarre to your ears - and it is admittedly very unusual. That's why these are exceptions - and everyone knows they are. A simple online search should make that clear. Walrasiad (talk) 16:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
The statement that "No one calls it 'Gambia'." is simply false. Lots of sources call it "Gambia" without "he". This has been previously discussed. Some of the sources cited in the article do that in their headlines. Some publications and websites even do it in the names of their publications/websites. If I recall correctly, it is especially common in the context of sports. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I can't account for mistakes flying around the internet from ignorant writers, poor webmasters or graphic designers, who don't know better, or those who need to abbreviate it further for convenience. That's why I predicated in anyone who is actually familiar with Africa or geography. Published works are your best bet. Walrasiad (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Some of those sources are based in Africa, so you can't really say they have no familiarity with Africa or geography. You can insult people and say that what they do is a mistake driven by ignorance because you know what is correct, but that is not the only possible explanation. If you do a Google Advanced Search for exact phrases like "in Gambia" and "for Gambia", you'll find that many of the most well respected sources include such phrases. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Nope. Find only mistakes or abbreviations or embedded in other phrases (e.g. "for Gambia Airways"). But it heartens me that you finally did a search. I am sure you now realize "The Gambia" is overwhelmingly and relentlessly used everywhere. Walrasiad (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Ortizesp (talk) 22:41, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose – this is completely and utterly wrong and a waste of our time to discuss it. The country's name is The Gambia so what people think is valuable or useful is wholly irrelevant because they don't get to rename countries on a whim. The comparison with other countries is completely meaningless, because it is a different country. We no longer say The Lebanon because that is not its name. We do say The Gambia because that is its name. It really is that simple. Best to all DBaK (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
    But Lebanon never used (as far as I know) a definitive article (Ukraine used to be "the Ukraine" though). However, the articles about countries that do use definitive articles do not use it in the title (e.g the Netherlands redirects to Netherlands, the Maldives to Maldives, the Philippines to Philippines, the Seychelles to Seychelles, the Solomon Islands to Solomon Islands, the United Kingdom to United Kingdom, the United States to United States, etc). Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 01:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
    You are wrong. People (the old generations) used to call Lebanon "the Lebanon" and Ukraine "the Ukraine", but they are not the official English translation of these country names and people have now stopped using them.
    Solomon Islands is another special case which we just have to remember. "Solomon Islands" (without "the") means the island country in the South Pacific, "the Solomon Islands" means the archipelago which contains both the country of Solomon Islands and Bougainville (currently an autonomous region of Papua New Guinea, scheduled to become an independent sovereign state in 2027). Vic Park (talk) 03:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
    The Lebanon (song) OK bye. DBaK (talk) 08:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
    @DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered: interesting, didn't know about that, always good to learn something new. Anyway, @Vic Park:, "the Solomon Islands" refers to both the country and the archipelago, "Solomon Islands" is never used by people who speak proper English. Trust me, I live in Australia which is near the Solomon Islands. Australian media uses the definitive article in sentences. For example, in this ABC News article the first sentence is (other than the image caption) "Children ran and traffic jammed as a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked the Solomon Islands capital of Honiara on Tuesday, while a major aftershock struck nearby 30 minutes later." Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 11:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
    The above quoted sentence from ABC News is being parsed incorrectly. In that case, the the refers to the capital; it is not being used as part of the name of the place. That phrase can be shortened to "a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked the capital" or "a magnitude-7.0 earthquake rocked the capital city Honiara", dropping "Solomon Islands" for an in-context phrasing while retaining the. In that sentence, Solomon Islands is just identifying which country Honiara is the capital of. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
@BarrelProof: then perhaps I should point you to several other news sources that use the definitive article (e.g this video is titled "What's Happening with China and the Solomon Islands" and the first sentence of the video's description is "Leaked details from a security agreement between China and the Solomon Islands have raised questions from the US, Australia, New Zealand, and other regional states in Oceania about China's possible military ambitions in the South Pacific." Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I understand. I was just saying that particular example wasn't on-target. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Apparently, I am your fellow countryman. For people who don't know the difference, they use "the Solomon Islands" for both, including some journalists. For people who do know the rules, we follow the creditable sources and only use "Solomon Islands" for the country.
Quoted from the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's Solomon Islands page:
"Australia has a deep and longstanding relationship with Solomon Islands."
Link: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/solomon-islands/solomon-islands-country-brief Vic Park (talk) 04:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@Vic Park: media uses the definitive article because saying "Solomon Islands is a country" sounds broken compared to "The Solomon Islands is a country". Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 06:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Not really, if you treat "Solomon Islands" as a political entity instead of a geographical feature, then it is okay to drop the definite article. It is not broken English (articles are unnecessary before singular proper nouns), at least not according to the Australian Government, they've used "Solomon Islands" consistently throughout their reports. I have not seen a single case where they used "the Solomon Islands" to describe the country.
Examples:
1. Solomon Islands is an archipelagic state situated in the south-west Pacific Ocean, approximately 2,000 kms to the northeast of Australia.
2. The UK granted Solomon Islands internal self-government in 1976, followed by independence on 7 July 1978.
3. Solomon Islands is one of the Pacific's poorest countries, with high costs of service delivery due to a small and geographically dispersed population. Vic Park (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Good point Necrothep. We should therefore look at what the significant majority of independent reliable secondary sources use. Govt publications are strictly primary, so let's ignore them, Gambian and others. I suggest a simple google count test using scholar or books. If there is no significant majority then we should achieve a consensus guideline. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:18, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Hang on @BarrelProof and @Roger 8 Roger. WP:THE actually lists The Gambia as a case where 'the' should be included! YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
WP:The does not say that, please read it again more carefully. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
It's under a big heading that says 'When definite and indefinite articles should be used'. YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
If this move is supported, perhaps the Gambia item should be removed from that list of special exceptions. I was just saying that's why the capitalization matters to this discussion. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:33, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I think that the policy would need to be changed before the article title. YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Saying that with no experience in writing Misplaced Pages policy though :). YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Also, the wording that prefixes that list seems to leave some room for interpretation: it just says this is a case where "'The' is sometimes used", not that it should always (or even usually) be used. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I think you are interpreting that very loosely. YorkshireExpat (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

YorkshireExpat, I suggest once again that you read the policy more carefully. BarrrelProof has pointed out just one example where your assetion is incorrect. Your quoting the heading and saying it proves your point simply shows that you are not understanding the heading. Where does it say articles should be used, capitalised or not. Please check what original research means and consider that is what you are using. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Note: I put a notification about this RM discussion at WT:THE#Requested move discussion at Talk:The Gambia. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
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