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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 71.100.166.228 (talk) at 07:35, 10 March 2007 (typo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

You wanted to know about Jews, on some question page, right? You can ask me what you like, if you're being serious. I won't accuse you of being anti-Jewish, or give a knee jerk reaction, in fact it's better to say directly what you think and ask me any question directly.--Urthogie 00:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

are you Jewish?

yes.

do you believe in God?

yes.

Are you Jewish by birth and ancestry or by decision to become a Jew?

by birth and ancestry, although I was once an atheist and then came to believe in God and Judaism though my own intellectual and spiritual pursuits.

"From this I intend to develop a hierarchy of characteristics which hopefully will not have to remain dynamic but which at least some parts may prove themselves to be stable."

Well, I think there's an inherent flaw in thinking you can categorize any cultural group with certain characteristics. Of course, you can identify certain common characteristics among Jews, but to say something is an essentially Jewish trait is not exactly logical. I know many Jews, both in my family and in my community which have such varied personalities as one would find between Jews and Christians, for example.

Also, a lot of this depends on how we define "Jew". It seems to me, though, that no matter which of the many definitions of "Jew" you choose, there will not be much sense in attempting to categorize "Jewish characteristics."

Attitudes towards money and God and other things vary just as much between Jews as they do between any other culture. I therefore don't think your project will discover any universal characteristics or attitudes, as this would amount to absolute cultural determinism, something which obviously doesn't fit such a diverse group of people.

Predestination might fit on religious grounds a diverse group of people. I think Presbyterians identify if not hold this point of view. However, even though Jews may have diverse characteristics for instance does any Jew believe that Jesus Christ is Divine? I would say no and that this is a distinguishing characteristic of the Jews. However, that does not mean that all people who call themselves Christian belief that Jesus Christ is Devine so in terms of a survey for instance it might be impossible to characterize either a Jew or a Christian according to whether they believe that Jesus Christ is Devine. In my mind for instance in order to characterize Jesus Christ as Devine or as God my perception of God has to change. But these details and fine points are exactly what a dynamic classification scheme is intended to reveal. As is, most people seem to have only their own idea of what a Jew is rather than rely upon a consensus which could be provided by a classification study. If nothing is learned from such a study then one can easily enough revert to old knowledge and beliefs. 71.100.166.228 02:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

"By doing such a study Jews may likewise find a particular group which better reflects their true feelings, beliefs and practices than the one with which they are currently envolved."

Jews are already capable of doing this, and many do. Many become christians. Others become marxists. Others reject isms entirely. Jews, like all human beings are constantly developing new attitudes towards everything in the world.

Not necessarily if they are disabled or have a handicap, illness or disease. Classification schemes are capable of offering highly valuable assistance just as a road map is capable of helping you to find a little known street. I know a young Jewish man who is homeless and lives on the street. To the best of my knowledge he is not addicted to drugs and claims only to be suffering from incurable OCD. I find it odd that he would pick the street as a place to live and take jobs such as construction site cleanup when he must wash his hands or at least wipe them with tissue paper every few minutes even if he is in a very clean environment. Perhaps if he knew of other Jews with similar problems which a classification scheme might reveal he could find a supprt group he felt comfortable with. 71.100.166.228 02:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope this helps give you some perspective, --Urthogie 01:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of this, like I said, depends on how you're defining "Jews". If you're going by religious belief, then yes, none of us belief in Jesus Christ.

This Jewish homeless man has a disease, OCD. There are non-jews that have this disease. I fail to see any evidence of any unifying "characteristic" to be classified.--Urthogie 02:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point of modern classification... Modern dynamic classification methods can process extremely vast numbers of characteristics and elements using neural networking techniques with the specific goal of minimizing the number of queries necessary to find any particular element. However, the characterisitcs which are virtually insignificant and pushed to the end of the hierarchy still have a role to play since data in a classification can also be searched for characteristics like OCD. Right now this man is turned off by non-Jewish participants either atheist or Christain or those from other religions yet wonders the street seeking help from Jewish Begal makers instead of perhaps seeking help from a Rabbi. His mind is not functioning in an organised or systematic way which the data and techniques that would be available without requireing him to go through a series of state social worker or religious recruiting interactions might help him better find his way. 71.100.166.228 03:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, can you tell me about neural networking techniques? Specifically, what do you know about neuroscience, or informatics, or cultural studies whatsoever?--Urthogie 03:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

As to my own personal working knowledge... some perspective background first... My career started many years ago, before the personal computer became available, with the question I posed to a Presbyterian minister who first informed me that computers were superior to man. I asked him if computers had been asked whether God existed or not. His answer was "Yes," and what they had said was that they did not have enough information. Naturally I wondered if with sufficient information a computer could answer the question. I become curious as to whether, “thinking” like a computer, I might be able to (with enough knowledge) answer the question myself. As time progressed I realized that what I really needed to do was to have a computer simulate human “thinking” instead of the other way around.

This idea evolved into:

• a.) using logical equation reduction as the method,
• b.) using multiple state logic as a human does instead of binary state logic like computers, and
• c.) feeding the computer equations which represented both sides of the argument, i.e., that God existed or did not.

My searches eventually revealed a method of logical equation reduction suitable for computer application that was limited only by computer capacity in terms of the number of variables it could handle (Harvard Chart Method of logical equation reduction). I rewrote the method to handle multiple states. First problem: the method required that all possible combinations of variables be placed in a table for processing. Table size was determined mathematically by (s^v)*((s*v)-1). (I am currently developing, after many years of neglect, a distributed version for expanding the capability of this program for utilization of many computers via the Internet.)

(Skip to the next paragraph to avoid this personal part of the story if you want...) It turns out that so much memory is required to build the table that even the largest computer at the time could only process 32 variables and 32 states - enough possibly to allow the computer to run across the street without getting hit by a car. Then it dawned on me that I would never find a computer with the capacity to reduce to minimum form any where near as many variables and states as God. End of project. God exists as the logical consequence of being defined as an entity with the capability to reduce to minimum form an infinite number of equations having and infinite number of variables with an infinite number of states, instantaneously. God exists in the sense that nature abhors a vacuum and God is the entity which ultimately fills the void of infinite processing capability inline with His omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresence definitions. So my question was answered. What should I do now?

In the course of looking for a way to make a computer "think" like a human being I had explored classification methodology. Long story short a Stanford PhD who was working at the Lovelace Center in New Mexico published an optimal classification computer capable methodology suitable for real time microbiological classification/identification just before personal computers came onto the market (1976). It was developed utilizing a variety of methods including fuzzy logic and neural networking. The Center had written a computer program to implement the method on a GE timeshare terminal but the program itself was proprietary and not available to me so I used the detailed and adequate description to write my own on my first personal computer – a TRS-80 Model I, back in 1978.. The current personal computer version allows entry and output data to be presented via an Excel spreadsheet and I've used it with no problem for such things as processing the USDA cultivates database with 1920 elements and 83 characteristics, and optimizing the order of characteristics of a multitude of various materials, personnel and tasks.

There are, however, a number of extremely sophisticated programs for grouping people according to the results of psychological evaluation based upon responses to questions at kiosks and online such as used by eHarmmony for dating and Blockbuster, Sports Authority, and of course Wal-Mart. The problem with tapping their already massive databases is getting them to share their results for applicant self-improvement feedback or for applicant public assistance. No companies are willing to share any data; calling it proprietary. This means starting from scratch building my own database and using my own programs. Psychological evaluation software is available and comes with a predefined database but all are copywrited so I’m back to building my own database and doing the optimization as well. 71.100.166.228 06:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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