Misplaced Pages

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. Mailer Diablo 04:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Masters of Destruction

Article currently totally uncited. Google news shows one hit and vanilla google shows nothing to indicate they are encyclopedic outside being one of over twenty gangs mentioned in a local paper. Delete. - brenneman 13:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, unless sources are cited. --Terence Ong 13:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not notable -- Alpha269 15:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Gang is mentioned this gang identification website, this local news comment piece, this reputable local newspaper, and generally all over this Google search]. They are real and like the hilariously inadequate Oriental Ruthless Boys they should be kept, but the copy should be edited mercilessly. Vizjim 15:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Vizjim. JoshuaZ 16:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this pathetic nonsense. Today seems to be GangCruft day. It's an encyclopedia folks. Deizio 16:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Not totally understanding your logic there, Deizio. This encyclopaedia contains information on many topics. Why should verifiable gangs not be included? This information could well be of use to researchers in the future.Vizjim 16:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

What makes them noteworthy? We're not talking the Crips or Bloods here. Existence does not equal notability. Nothing in the article is verified. Of your poorly presented "sources" we have something called "gangsorus" which I am not convinced is verifiable media coverage, an article from the Sacramento Bee with the line: "He worked as a cook at Burger King and ran with MOD (Masters of Destruction), a Hmong gang whose influence has spread from California to the Carolinas." and another local paper which merely mentions the name of this gang in a long list of gang names. The Sacramento Bee article is undated, but from quotes like "..is scheduled to return home by 2002" and the 1999 data in the included grapic we can also surmise that this is not recent media coverage. Please familiarize yourself with WP source, citation, general style and especially notability guidelines. I would also recommend you improve the article instead of blowing hot air on the AfD vote. The indiscriminate extension of the "Fresno Bulldog Gangs" walled garden is not, IMO, a desirable road to go down. Deizio 16:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Now, now, no need to be rude. This really isn't that important an issue, surely? I have tried my (limited) best to improve the article already, as well as "blowing hot air", a phrase for which there seems to be little need. If you care so passionately about this, well, crikey, I'll just walk away. My understanding is that non-notability is a point of view issue and not necessarily grounds for deletion.Vizjim 17:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Non-notability is exactly the determiner of retention or deletion. Everything else including content, style, popularity, tastefulness etc. is secondary. If you thought the "blowing hot air" comment was rude, I apologise. Then again we are discussing an article about people who apparently commit forced rapes, violent thefts and lots more non kitten-and-bunny-stroking related activities. Deizio 17:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely true. As I understand it, Misplaced Pages is not paper, and obscurity is not necessarily a deletion criterion. See Notability page. In this case, a gang operating over several states, for whatever reason, seems to me a sufficient phenomenon to be worth recording. The article could do with a clean-up, but not deletion.(Oh, on the rudeness thing, apology accepted.)Vizjim 18:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Sweet. But what is not entirely true? I didn't say anything about obscurity and could not agree more that Wiki is not paper. I said "Non-notability is exactly the determiner of retention or deletion". That's a fact. An article can be about an obscure, tasteless or useless subject, as long as it passes the notability criteria. You've quoted WP:N but I think you could give it another once over. Deizio 18:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that I need to recommend this to an experienced editor such as yourself, but maybe you should check the Deletion policy? Non-notability is not a core determiner of retention or deletion, and, as the notability page establishes, it is controversial whether it should ever be such a criterion. Therefore in the case of a gang which has been the cause of multiple serious assaults (and is therefore notable to the person who created this article, researchers into Hmong immigrant experience, researchers into gangs at the turn of the millenium, etc), I'm surprised to see you mention it as your core reason for voting a certain way. That said, it seems a good compromise to merge and redirect. By the way, you might also want to take a wee glance at (WP:Civil). Oh, and maybe think about the reasons why people might offer arguments and votes on an AfD without having the core knowledge necessary to improve an article.Vizjim 09:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• I missed the meeting where "Non-notability is not a core determiner of retention or deletion" became policy, truly I did. Look up and down the AfD page and tell me how often you see the word (non) notable and the abbreviation "nn". WP:N is an essay, not a policy or guideline. And get outta here with the WP:CIVIL stuff, this is about the tamest discussion I've been involved in. Finally you can thank me for sorting out this little episode by creating the Hmong gangs page, we're past this now. Deizio 10:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy, which is what I was pointing you towards, does not list notability as a core criterion for deletion. However many times it is used on the AfD pages, it is still not the official policy of Misplaced Pages to limit itself to what its most vocal users find acceptable. Vizjim 12:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Misplaced Pages is not a police database. Brian G. Crawford 17:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. A real gang, frequently in the news, particuarly in Wisconsin, for murder and other mayhem. Definitely deserves inclusion here. -- JJay 18:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• That's more like it. Jjay, your cleanup of the article and inclusion of sources which back up these claims will be a shining example to Vizjim. Thanks in advance. Deizio 18:55, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I missed the part where I have to clean up articles to please people who use terms like "pathetic nonsense" or "cruft". If you need help editing, try Misplaced Pages:How to edit a page. Also see WP:Civil . -- JJay 19:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• Hmm. I would prefer it if people could back up their claims of notability with facts and sources JJ. That's all. The article doesn't really have any right now, you see. If they are "frequently in the news", why did Brenneman have so little luck in his googling? If your vote came from a new editor it would look like sockpuppety. As for my earlier comments they related to the article when I first saw it and the available info at the time. Deizio 19:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Further comment. To help Deiz add sources to the article, I thought he might want to start with these related to Wisconsin/Minnesota cases . -- JJay 19:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• As JJay is presumably well aware, that link leads to headlines and the full content is subscription only, hence not really useful for linking. However I have found some recent press coverage and linked accordingly. I'm satisfied there is notability here but am voting to create "Hmong gangs", then merge and redirect this article, Oriental Ruthless Boys (also currently an AfD) and allow scope for the addition of others without ending up here again. My annoyance with editors who consistently vote to keep articles but show no interest in, knowledge of or willingness to save such articles remains undimmed. Deizio 23:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Vizjim. There is plenty of precedent for articles on notable street gangs. (See List of street gangs.) And this gang is clearly notable. For example, the Sacramento Bee refers to it as "a Hmong gang whose influence has spread from California to the Carolinas". dbtfz 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merging to a newly created Hmong gangs article would be OK, too. dbtfz 23:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not notable. And what are forced rapes anyway - theres some other kind? Defunkier 19:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup per Vizjim and JoshuaZ Cantara 22:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per well argued nomination. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 22:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge anything not already there to Hmong gangs and redirect. Angr/talk 15:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.