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Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Wanli and Jianwen Eras

Mass nonsensical reverts without discussion or comment, including removal of improvements and improved formatting, links, etc. and insertion of duplicate sections and assorted nonsense in the middle of edit warring by User:Ylogm. Just get 'em to stop and at least talk and/or force them to sit through a mediation to at least discuss why they prefer the worse wrong version of the page. In particularly, the current "translations" of the Chinese names are wrong and worse formatted and the discussion of the Yongle Emperor's reversion of the Jianwen Era is wrong/worse. Thanks. — LlywelynII 03:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wanli Era edit history with my comments and requests and Ylogm's ignoring of them.

Jianwen Era edit history with my comments and requests and Ylogm's ignoring of them.

Talk:Jianwen_Era with my request for comments and (so far) Ylogm's ignoring it.

Amid the edit warring, Ylogm has also duplicated the entire content of the page without noticing/caring, in an attempt to avoid having any discussion or bring their revert to my attention. — LlywelynII 03:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@LlywelynII: You are required to notify the user of this report.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking through Ylogm's edit history and seeing a lot of seemingly pointless edits and self-reverts. Unless Ylogm adequately explains what that's about, I'm inclined to block per WP:NOTHERE. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Happened again at Wanli Era. I originally reverted a bunch of their moves, and I agree with the statement of WP:NOTHERE. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that's about enough of that. Blocked, and it might be worth looking through Ylogm's other edits too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:23, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems that after Ylogm was blocked, an IP address 2402:800:62B4:B7AF:951C:C333:582D:DB6F (talk · contribs · WHOIS) started to edit the same articles (such as and ).--Stevenliuyi (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested page protection ~ Eejit43 (talk) 15:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Can someone take a look at 14.241.212.176 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)? Also appears like Ylogm to me. --Stevenliuyi (talk) 15:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Based on contributions alone I'd say they probably are, especially as both IPs are from the same location. (Non-administrator comment) ~ Eejit43 (talk) 15:47, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Close Review: Tranarchist Topic Ban

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

While it is true the OP was a sockpuppet, the time to close the discussion was when that was revealed, but none stepped up to do so, and that is a mistake we made as a community. As many noted, we allowed the discussion to proceed, and editors continued to give their opinions and !votes in good faith, so, it would be unfair to them and a massive waste of contributor time were we to consider the close invalid due to the poisoning of the well by the sockpuppet.

On !votes, most participants here agree that, while it was not a perfect count (these never are, as we use an open system of discussion where people can !vote for options that weren't initially proposed, or offer compromises etc.), it is clear that the result was well within the closer's discretion. A different editor could have closed as "no consensus", or "consensus to some sanction, but which specific one to be further discussed", and it would have been just as valid, such is the nature of WP:CONSENSUS. Different people can give different weights to each of the arguments presented, and arrive at a different conclusion. CaptainEek presented their arguments and they were mostly not refuted, with a majority of editors here (involved or otherwise) agreeing with them.

Listen, I'm as loathe as any of you to open a close review on such a long and frankly taxing ANI discussion as the recent discussion regarding alleged advocacy editing by TheTranarchist (talk · contribs). However, after going through the !votes I have good reason to believe that CaptainEek (talk · contribs)'s close was against consensus.

The main reason I believe this is that their counts are simply wrong: they seem to have ignored the fact that many of the editors who supported some sanction other than a topic ban explicitly opposed a topic ban. They say there were around 35 support !votes to around 25 oppose !votes, but there are actually by my count 35 editors who said they opposed a topic ban, of which 29 opposed any sanctions. Conversely, there are 38 editors who supported some kind of topic ban, but only 32 who supported the actual result of an indefinite (or unspecified) topic ban. The other 6 supported either time limited topic bans, or domain limited topic bans, such as a topic ban only on GENSEX BLPs specifically.

I understand that consensus is not a vote, but certainly a consensus should not go against what the majority of editors supported without a good reason, and especially a consensus largely based on the alleged fact that a majority of editors supported it, when they didn't. I think there's a rough consensus in that discussion for some sanction (44 to 29, and I say that as one of the 29), but pretty transparently not one for the specific sanction imposed (32 for versus 35 explicitly opposed, and 6 others).

If you want the full details, I have them below. I'm using noping because I feel notifying every single participant in said discussion is very excessive (but if any of them want to challenge my characterization of their !vote, feel free):

One obvious correction: the IP you say is a SPA is not. Izno (talk) 06:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

My apologies to them, and that comment has been stricken. However, the rest of my post stands, as I did include them in my counts and they were one of the 6 people who voted for an alternative topic ban anyway. Loki (talk) 06:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close which is well within an administrator's discretion to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of various arguments regarding policies and guidelines. Raw vote count charts are of no value. Cullen328 (talk) 06:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  The problem is that Eek themselves said the close was based on the fact that the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin, when they didn't outweigh those opposed at all. Loki (talk) 06:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close based on the arguments presented in the close. An Arbitrator, who is voted on and trusted by the community to determine consensus and handle the most difficult of user conduct disputes, feels that it was necessary and left a rather lengthy explanation of the reasoning. The closure was within the bounds of reasonable Administrator discretion, and most supported some form of sanction. I also note that consensus is not required to issue a topic ban due to Discretionary Sanctions applying to this area (though it seems it hasn't been properly logged as such yet). The Wordsmith 06:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
  • It's good form to note that you participated in the discussion being appealed, when opining on whether to endorse/overturn. Also, the reason this isn't logged as a CT (previously DS) sanction is that it isn't one; rather, it's a community sanction that defines its scope by incorporation of an ArbCom decision. There's an informal precedent that admins generally don't impose CT sanctions when there's an ongoing proposal for a community sanction. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 08:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

    It's good form to note that you participated in the discussion being appealed, when opining on whether to endorse/overturn. - Fair enough, though I didn't believe it necessary since my support for the topic ban was listed just a few lines above. The Wordsmith 18:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• I'm involved here, so no boldfaced !vote, but I worry that the close has failed to consider to what extent the support !votes are applicable under the WP:TBAN policy: The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive. A large number of support !votes cited only off-wiki comments; such !votes should have been given substantially less weight. We do not ban people for expressing political opinions off-wiki, perhaps outside cases where doing so creates an inherently unsafe editing environment (which I don't think anyone argued was the case here). -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 08:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  And FWIW, if I have one regret about the Athaenara affair, it's that I was merely neutral on the GENSEX TBAN; I should have opposed. It suffered from the same defective logic, citing bias outside of GENSEX content as basis to ban from that topic area. Although given its unanimity I can't fault that close. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 08:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for posting this, I was wondering if I should myself lol. I just want to note some quick considerations on three listed !votes.

• Snow_Rise later also expressed support for limited sanctions as opposed to a full topic ban being something that could work.
• Springee consistently called me back here whenever there was an editorial disagreement in the slightest. If you look at their most recent post on the thread, they accused me of being problematic due "walls of text" (discussions with another editor that resulted in us developing a working lead) and they cited me restoring removed content as evidence I was removing details (and it bears noting that generally their comments on the Cole talk page (including their proposed lead that didn't follow the body and mentioned nothing other than her campaigning against minors) have consistently sought to POV push the framing that Cole is only opposed to transgender healthcare for minors - the details I "removed" by restoring were the full details of a bill Cole supported that notably went far beyond concerns about minors transitioning). Multiple editors throughout the course of the discussion raised issues with their own editing and the flaws/hypocrisies in their allegations (and POV-pushing in other GENSEX articles). Speaking just to their latest post, Maddy From Celeste, who has been involved in the page, described their comments as highly disingenuous and noted they had been working against a lead consensus, leaving tangential WP:IDHT comments, and insinuating sources had issues without evidence.
• JWeiss11 called for a TBAN based on my user page mission statement (trans people exist), "pattern of edits" without specification, "lengthy defenses when challenged" at my own ANI case, and accused my polar political perspectives of effecting articles. Any admin who has access to the arb-com email I sent - please confirm that JWeiss11 has a COI on FAIR I raised concerns about weeks ago. Also, when I quoted in response what I can describe no better than their polar political perspective that they believe that the mean and distribution of genetic drivers for intelligence is not identical for each every and ethnic group of humans. Basic logic demands me to believe that - their response was Evidently you have a problem with basic logic.... Not to mention the whole WP:IDHT and cries of censorship when he deadnamed Brianna Ghey, a trans girl who was just murdered, for no other reason than to say "it's not like Voldemort". Should this editors' !vote and reasoning really count? I can't be the only editor who sees an issue with an editor who pushes race science and has edited an article without disclosing their COI calling me a POV-pusher, right?
• Additionally, I want to note that I repeatedly asked people to provide a single problematic GENSEX edit outside of WP:BLP and WP:BLPGROUP, and nobody has yet to do so. If a single editor can link to a single diff where anyone in that conversation brings up such an edit/article, please link it here, otherwise I would hope Habeas Corpus would apply. If any editors want to testify to the lack of that specific corpus, that would also work. Outside of my articles specifically about anti-trans individuals and group, the only comments my general GENSEX editing have received has been 1) praise for sticking to WP:MEDRS, WP:RS, and dealing with WP:FRINGE, and 2) vague insinuations the BLP / BLPGROUP problems might carry over without any evidence they have. The issues raised were all specifically my articles on anti-trans groups/people (and even then, not all of them). My writing and gnoming of LGBT history articles, LGBT rights articles, trans healthcare articles, and trans public/historical figure articles were never mentioned in any negative context. In fact, I feel somewhat remiss that nobody pinged @Reagle, despite quoting his quote in the Atlantic about how my work on Gloria Hemingway was explicitly wiki-policy based, not culture-warriorish.

In short, I believe that the weight of !votes, both numerically and argumentatively, did not constitute a consensus for a GENSEX topic ban. The only evidence raised points towards issues with my articles on BLPs/BLPGROUPs, and even then only anti-LGBT ones. Considering that calls for no sanction and a TBAN were about equally represented, some type of sanction (perhaps even a TBAN) is probably called for on those specific types of articles, but AFAICT there has been no compelling evidence that completely cutting me off from all even marginally LGBT related articles is called for or would be beneficial to the encyclopedia. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 09:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I want to clarify: relative to the larger culture war and Twitter, I found the Misplaced Pages discussion regarding Hemmingway commendable: Wikipedians, discussing, arguing, and reasoning together; and that was the POV expressed in the The Atlantic article. (Not that my comments there should have any authority here.)

However, relative to Misplaced Pages, I subscribe to #Misplaced Pages on Mastodon and coincidentally saw TheTranarchist's posts about their activity, which seem more activist than encyclopedic -- i.e., gloating about unfavorable representations of biographical subjects on Misplaced Pages that the subjects object to. Similarly, LarstonMarston lists on their user page "People/organizations I strongly personally dislike", including Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, but is actively editing that article. That concerns me. Reagle (talk) 13:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• No, this is a very poor close (Note: I opposed sanctions). But this is not a difficult one. It is absolutely fine to close a discussion one way or another when there is little numerical consensus as long as you explain why you are giving more weight to the comments provided by the side you close in favour of. If you don't do this, and you specifically close it on the basis of numbers ("the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin") when that is clearly not true, then that is a bad close and you don't even have the argument that it "was within discretion". It should be vacated. Black Kite (talk) 09:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  It wasn't solely closed on numbers, though. While CaptainEek did go into a lot of detail talking about numbers of !votes (so I can understand why it was interpreted this way), they also detail the content of TheTranarchists issues around editing. Furthermore there doesn't appear to have been a good enough defence of her editing to over-ride the arguments in favour of sanctions. — Czello 09:52, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  There isn't really a good definition of the reasons why, either, though. Far too many of the !votes for a TBAN are "per someone else", or they're editors who are in the opposing camp when it comes to their advocacy, and at least one is clearly a sock. And whilst the fact that the whole discussion was started by a sock of a banned editor who is almost certainly laughing away now at Misplaced Pages may be a minor point, it still exists. Black Kite (talk) 11:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think the OP being a sock really matters. If everyone took the Tranarchist's side I'd agree, but it clearly sparked a very legitimate conversation to which many uninvolved people contributed. Clearly, there's an issue - regardless of OP's motives. I found Eek's explanation of the reasons why to be sufficient, particularly in the 5th and 6th paragraphs. — Czello 11:22, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  And Black Kite is engaging in a blatant fallacy here, that "per someone else" = weak rationale. What a "per someone else" !vote means is "someone else already laid out the reasons I, too, have, so I'll spare you all the tedium of me repeating them at length". "Per someone else" is a good thing; it keeps these discussions shorter. If it were a weak rationale categorically, we would not use it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Maybe, but see WP:PERX. And people already use weak rationales all the time; there is no stopping it. Shells-shells (talk) 06:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  This isn't a deletion discussion. But I'll bite anyway. Read the entire passage: "If the rationale provided includes a comprehensive argument, specific policy references and/or a compelling presentation of evidence in favour of , an endorsement of argument may be sufficient." It obviously is often sufficient, or the majority of editors who are well aware of the essay you're improperly thumping would not continue to save everyone headaches and eyestrain by using "per someone else" comments in discussions like these. Fortunately most closers already understand this.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Good comment, I have nothing to add. (Except to say that I don't mean to thump anything, and I apologize if I gave that impression.) While you're around would you consider adding some advice down below? Shells-shells (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• @LokiTheLiar: Normally, the first step in challenging a close is to discuss it with the closer. I can't find that discussion anywhere; if I have missed it, can you please link the discussion - otherwise, why didn't you discuss this with CaptainEek? BilledMammal (talk) 11:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Oh, honestly? Because I hadn't read that guideline. Honestly I really wish I had brought this up to CaptainEek first, because I think they are one of the most likely people here to not relitigate the argument and just admit their counts were wrong. Loki (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  There was a brief discussion on CaptainEek's talk page, where there is a continuation of behavior we already saw in the extremely verbose ANI discussion above (nit-picking details and selectively ignoring concerns). IMO, the arguments in the aforementioned novel were strongly in favor of a TBAN and the counter-arguments to them were weak. Even in the talk page discussion mentioned above the sanctioned individual admitted to seriously compromising wiki values but still insisted on trying to negotiate the sanctions. Additionally, it appears this closure review has sparked TTAs hopes for a reversal on their talk page, which has gone relatively unchanged and links to the, still unchanged, social media account. While I suspect there is no policy against this, it speaks to the disruption TTA will undoubtedly cause if allowed to edit in this topic area in the near future.

  
  

  I also find it interesting that the person who filed this decided to summarize the votes the way they did, without pinging the involved editors but challenging them to "dispute" the category they landed in. I've already spotted one error, representing an editor who struck their original vote and changed to sanctioning, in the oppose section. I wonder how many others are in there? Misplaced Pages isn't a democracy, consensus is more than just a raw count of votes, but everyone here already knows that (until it doesn't serve in their favor, of course).

  
  

  Endorse Closure - the arguments spoke for themselves, and keeping this open for any additional discussion is causing serious harm to the wiki community. Recommend SNOW CLOSE.

  Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agree entirely with this assessment. This close review is bordering on frivolous, frankly - and I suspect is born out of a personal dislike of the community consensus. — Czello 14:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  nit-picking details and selectively ignoring concerns - how did I do that? I think Habeas corpus should apply, editors did raise issue but specifically the only issues raised were in a narrow set of articles: anti-trans BLPs/BLPGROUPs (if I am wrong in that assessment, somebody prove me wrong). Nobody raised issues with my GENSEX edits/articles outside of that narrow range, and I think a close should take that into account. I believe that a sanction of some kind on BLPs/BLPGROUPs was called for and should be left up to closer discretion, I wouldn't have minded either the AFC sanction or even a TBAN, but so far nobody has yet to provide a compelling reason why the ban should extend to all of GENSEX. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not going to engage in a debate with you, the discussion was already closed. Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  You just called into my question my behavior after the close... TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  TTA: I suggest you stop participating in this and let your advocates argue for you. You're not helping your case here. Lizthegrey (talk) 18:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Fair enough (thank you for stopping me jumping in too wholeheartedly). I've said all I wanted to say in regards to the case, to summarize: I am fine with any resulting sanctions at any severity to the area that showed problems (WP:BLP/WP:BLPGROUP/WP:ORG) - I just want my overall well-received contributions to GENSEX outside of that intersection to be taken into account. With that, it is once again in the community's hands, and I leave to see how this plays out and get some work done on the Crown Heights Tenant Union. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• The close seems to be a reasonable one of a discussion longer than The Martian Chronicles or Brave New World --Guerillero 13:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose close simply based on the fact that the OP of the thread was a sock - it should've been closed when that was found out. I guess banned users can still get what they want. LilianaUwU 14:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Repeating what I said above: I don't think the OP being a sock really matters. If everyone took the Tranarchist's side I'd agree, but it clearly sparked a very legitimate conversation to which many uninvolved people contributed. Clearly, there's an issue - regardless of OP's motives — Czello 14:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  There were multiple editors who chimed in and mentioned they were considering opening an ANI. I don't see how the OP sock status has any weight compared to the novel that proceeded independent of the banned user being outed. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I guess the question is whether this would have ended differently had this been knocked on the head and then somebody else, who was an editor in good standing, had started a new thread? I don't know but I do think that it would have been vastly better if that had happened instead of this. This gives the impression that sockpuppetry can be an effective tool for getting what one wants. I'm not saying that it actually is, but people will see this and they can't be blamed if they come to that conclusion. This may well embolden other bad actors to try the same thing. It would be wise to watch out for any repeat performances. If it happens again the best thing would be to the close the thread immediately, without prejudice to somebody else starting a new one. DanielRigal (talk) 14:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  This gives the impression that sockpuppetry can be an effective tool for getting what one wants. I'm not saying that it actually is, but people will see this and they can't be blamed if they come to that conclusion. Me. It's me. I have come to that conclusion. All a sockpuppet has to do is prompt some remarks from people who hang out at drama boards, and their actions are nominally legitimized. XOR'easter (talk) 15:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close I did not take part in the discussion. My view is that this close is within administrator discretion. It was awaiting closure for days on end and someone else could have come in and closed it as no consensus, but the fact is no-one did. Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• If the count is wrong, maybe Eek could just go back and fix it. While they're at it, give the !votes they miscounted a once-over to see if the change in numbers/opinions affects their thinking. If so, reclose it or leave it to someone else; if not, we can move on. The sanction which emerges from the closing statement is within reasonable determinations of consensus, but when a headcount is framed as the starting point for assessing consensus, that affects how people feel about the outcome. — Rhododendrites \\ 15:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• A thought on the concerns that the OP was a sock. I spend a lot of time responding to sockpuppetry, and commonly strike or revert their contribs and delete their drafts and articles - I'm not pro-socking. I commented a couple of times early in the thread, but when it became clear that the OP was a sock I stepped away from the thread because I am not willing to spend my time investigating behavioural concerns raised by someone who ought to be editing here. However, many editors in good standing saw fit to bring their own concerns to the table after the sock had raised theirs. We cannot ignore procedurally valid concerns just because they followed on from some procedurally invalid ones. Maybe it would have been better in some ways for the initial thread to have been closed, and a new one started, but the end result would likely have been the same; lets face it, there are other venues where people who may be blocked or even banned here can go to complain about stuff, and those complaints do sometimes result in action being taken by editors in good standing on-wiki. As for the close itself, I don't envy CaptainEek for the time they must have spent reading through it, and I thank them that they were willing to take it on. I think the best course of action now would be to leave the closure as it is, and for TheTranarchist to spend six months working in different areas (there are lots), demonstrate that she has learned from this experience, and request the ban be lifted at that point. Girth Summit _(blether) 15:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose close (Note: I opposed TBAN or any other sanctions). This close might be within administrator discretion, and the discussion surely was extra-long (longer than even some novels/plays, as some users already noted). But, the fact is that consensus/vote count wasn't at all convincing and overwhelming to justify a full, indefinite TBAN (or any other sanctions). The only logical thing was to close this as no consensus. And, there still remain the unpleasant fact that all of this was started by OP who was a sockpuppet of a perviously banned user, and that fact alone sounds really ludicrous to me. Having all that in mind, I see no logic or justification that a TBAN was imposed on a constructive and productive contributor like TheTranarchist. — Sundostund mppria 16:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment These users probably don't belong in the `Oppose all Sanctions` camp (feel free to correct):

• Pinguin did not outright oppose -> Oppose sanctions, warning at most
• Colin did not vote
• XOR'easter neutral on warn -> Oppose TBAN, neutral on warning
• Ppt91 did not vote
• SarekOfVulcan neutral on warn -> Oppose TBAN, neutral on warning
• Lizthegrey reversed oppose -> Warning, mainspace creation only through AfC
• Hist9600 supported warning -> Oppose sanctions, warning at most

I did not bother going through the non-opposes, because as I suspected, the OP is purposefully misrepresenting votes to try and badger the closing admin. Should we be considering sanctions against @LokiTheLiar? (the users name is not lost on me). Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It's you who is trying to misrepresent votes. Colin (talk · contribs) and ppt91 (talk · contribs) didn't bold anything but clearly said that they opposed sanctions. Pinguinn (talk · contribs) and Hist9600 (talk · contribs) said they opposed sanctions explicitly, it's incorrect to say that they supported a warning because they were were willing to allow a warning at most. I admit XOR'easter (talk · contribs) and SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs) did indeed only oppose a topic ban explicitly, but they didn't support any other sanction, and the topic ban was really the sanction at issue here. So that leaves only Lizthegrey (talk · contribs), who I admittedly didn't catch had changed her vote to supporting a warning (but still opposing a topic ban). I've pinged all these people so they can verify if my characterization is correct and that you have in fact not said anything that would change the actual counts by even one vote. Loki (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Your characterization of my position is correct. XOR'easter (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

That's true, I don't think a warning is really necessary. If the editor was oblivious and unwilling to accept criticism, then a warning would make sense, but I don't think that applies here. Hist9600 (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It's frustrating to see my attempt to find consensus and a more reasonable middle ground is now being held up as evidence that sanctions were warranted. Yes, I originally opposed all sanctions, but changed my mind in response to other posters, and would wish that others would similarly be willing to walk back from the edge of full TBAN sanctions. This will encourage people to not change votes in future in response to discussion, and stick to the extremes and force closers to deal with extremely polarised !votes that are sticking there only to push the Overton Window rather than allow the community to reach a more reasonable compromise. To see a result that is a TBAN (one of the polar ends of the spectrum) rather than somewhere in the middle is disappointing. Lizthegrey (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• The count is not entirely clear to me. I came up with 37 in favor of outright topic ban of some sort, 11 in favor of some sanctions, 2 warning only, 23 no sanctions. Just on a quick examination I notice that LokiTheLiar seems to have miscategorized Lizthegrey as opposed when they changed it to in favor of some sanctions, and Pinguinn as opposed when they changed it to warning.

• I don't personally have an opinion on the T-BAN or the close, but I was curious that there was such an apparent discrepancy in the numbers. If anyone wants to reconcile Loki's list vs. mine feel free, this is about as much time as I care to spend on it. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

For some of the discrepancy see my response to kcmasterpc above. In addition, I didn't count Tranarchist themselves at all, nor the original sock who opened the thread. Loki (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and you have Timothy as a support when he said he was supporting only on the condition that several other problematic editors were banned and oppose otherwise. As that didn't happen and frankly was never a realistic possibility, I counted him as an oppose. Loki (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I also want to add some more granularity is called for in regards to calls for the TBAN. Some were explicit they considered the intersection the problem, other comments were ambiguous as to whether they supported the intersectional ban or GENSEX in general, and editors like Snow Rise expressed support for limited sanctions and their position could be characterized more so as opposed to no sanctions rather than wholly supportive of a full GENSEX ban, (@Snow Rise correct me if I'm wrong in that assesment). So if we split the categories into 1) those who supported a full GENSEX ban and 2) those who opposed it, either calling for no sanctions or limited targeted sanctions, there seems to be a majority considering the GENSEX ban proposed by the sock was overkill. That's also not even considering that some (certainly not all as many were in good faith) of the oppose votes were hypocritical at best (per my JWeiss11 example). And in terms of arguments raised, every criticism was specifically to WP:BLP and WP:BLPGROUP/WP:ORG (I also want to note that in my previous comments were I said WP:BLPGROUP, WP:ORG/WP:BLPGROUP would have been a better characterization) articles, and even more specifically anti-trans ones, with nobody at any point raising a single problematic edit/article outside of that narrow intersection (despite repeated requests to multiple editors that they do so). TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

That's correct with regard to my position: I was open to supporting a less onerous sanction than a full TBAN, and specifically was willing to endorse the "proposed articles must go through AfC" approach, with the caveat that I preferred a full TBAN over no sanction/sanction without any restrictions whatsoever. That being said, in my opinion, I do not believe Eek's close was an unreasonable read on overall consensus, complicated though it surely was to distill from that particular discussion. I would have liked to have seen an intermediate outcome prevail there, but due to the nature of the ANI beast, it was a long shot by the point it started to gain traction. SnowRise 19:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close per Kcmastrpc. I've made my points elswhere in the thread but repeating them again here. I voted for the TBAN, for full disclosure. Ultimately WP:POLL applies (and even if it didn't, more users were still in favour of a TBAN than against) - discussion and consensus is what matters. I do believe a consensus developed during this discussion, and I believe CaptainEek adequately explained said consensus in the 5th and 6th paragraphs of the closing note. — Czello 17:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• ( Peanut gallery comment) Now before anything I will point out that I am barely extended-confirmed with very few non-trivial mainspace edits, so I guess you can feel free to disregard my post here. (My edit count and account age are both inflated, not accurate as a judge of my experience.) I must note that the closer's breakdown of notvotes is simply not harmonious with reality. It's probably true that something like 35 users did explicitly support some kind of topic ban, but it is not true that only 25 users explicitly opposed it. I don't think it's 35 (Ppt91 and Colin were neutral), but even discarding Timothy's conditional oppose there are at least 32 explicit TBAN opposes. To me this number appears incontestable (and I looked through it myself and drew up a table).Consensus is not determined by a simple tally, which is why I was astounded to see the claim that the votes in favor outweighed those opposed by a wide margin (which, by my reading, is inaccurate), followed by The !votes indicated that the community was generally in favor of a topic ban, so I then considered what factors might weigh against a topic ban. Clearly, the basic tally highly influenced the closer's view by shifting the burden of proof onto the defense (as it were) instead of the prosecution. In the closer's summary there was not much mention of any arguments in favor of a TBAN, just that the community was generally in favor of it; there was no discussion of whether that conclusion was warranted by the arguments. To make things clear: to me, it seems like the only substantive reason presented for a TBAN was the existence of a significant numerical majority favoring that outcome. That significant majority does not appear to exist; therefore, this close was unwarranted. If there were other reasons for a TBAN, I think it would be good for those to be mentioned in more detail somewhere.P.S. One major effect of this close is to send a loud message that newer users are frankly unwelcome in the GENSEX arena. If you make a newbie mistake, you can be sure it will be hauled out at you when the inevitable ANI filing comes, and the hammer will come down. Punishment (don't kid yourselves with the "sanctions should not be punitive" platitude) has replaced correction in this content area. (And, just by the way, I am not even convinced that this TBAN is a bad thing. It might really be helpful. But it feels like part of a larger anti-pattern.) Shells-shells (talk) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• You are certainly correct in that it appears that is now simple for editors with a certain POV (including sockpuppets of banned editors, one of which started the discussion) to remove other editors who oppose them from contentious areas without using the correct venue, which would be AE. This, IMO, is not a good thing. Especially in this case, where we - like many other social media fora - have a significant number of "gender critical" editors flooding the encyclopedia to push their views. Black Kite (talk) 17:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. One possible outcome of this (and the other thread) is that the bar for getting dragged to the boards is lowered to the point where reporting people one disagrees with becomes worth a punt. In all probability we will see some of the "gender critical" editors dragged up here as well as it becomes a Twitter like game of who can report who's opponents the fastest. I'm not sure who wins that game but I'm 100% sure that Misplaced Pages loses. DanielRigal (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  If there are "gender critical" editors who are also being disruptive in this topic area, then yes their behavior should be brought up for admin review as well. Past evidence has shown that removing the most disruptive editors from both "sides" of a controversial topic area is usually the best way to break the back of an intractable content area like this one. The Wordsmith 19:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close. I’m somewhat uninvolved with this. I was involved in the discussion at BLPN, and I made a single comment during the discussion. This is clearly well within admin discretion. Counts in large discussions of this sort will always be slightly wishy-washy, but if we take Loki’s numbers, it’s obviously a reasonable reading of consensus. If the numbers are 44 to 29, assuming reasonably equal weighting among arguments, there is a clear consensus for some sanction. Now, looking at the discussion with the understanding there is a consensus for a topic ban, we look at those supporting a sanction, and by Loki’s numbers 32 of the 44 supported an indef topic ban. That is reasonable to read as a consensus for an indef topic ban. There is nothing standing out that would be the obvious misreading of consensus or procedural issue that meets the threshold for overturning a close.As for the thread was opened by a sock argument, it has nothing to do with the close. The thread was open on ANI for a long time, and that would have been the place to shut the thread down. That the thread lasted as long as it did, with a significant amount of good faith input, is clear consensus that the thread should not have been closed. Arguing that now isn’t going to work because the horse is already out of the stable. Yes, it sucks that an editor is being sanctioned as the result of a thread started by a sock, but the actual consensus is among editors in good standing.It’s clear from the discussions here that this was a huge and difficult thread to close. There’s not even agreement about the total numbers. We should be thanking CaptainEek for spending the huge amount of time and effort it takes to read, parse, and absorb a discussion of this size, then weigh the arguments and provide their close. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'd certainly like to make it clear that, while I am am critical of the way that this went down, I'm not putting any of the blame for this on CaptainEek. This was a trainwreck long before they became involved. The fact that nobody else wanted to close it shows that it was already a no-win situation by that point and they clearly did their very best to unpick it. Whether this gets overturned or not, CaptainEek deserves our thanks for biting that bullet. DanielRigal (talk) 18:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  My true final comment here (I swear lol), I just want to also support this statement, @CaptainEek actually stepped in when the case had been dragging on for weeks and even while I disagree with their close I am immensely thankful to them for being the one to step in and actually bite the bullet. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, I must say I hold no ill feeling towards @CaptainEek, who is clearly far more of a net positive to this site than I am. Whatever the close had been, people like me would have given it some very sharp criticism, and I sincerely respect the admins willing to open themselves to that. Shells-shells (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  If the numbers are 44 to 29, assuming reasonably equal weighting among arguments, there is a clear consensus for some sanction. Now, looking at the discussion with the understanding there is a consensus for a topic ban: I hope you understand why this is an equivocation? There was consensus for some sanction. There was not consensus for a topic ban specifically, any topic ban. No option reached a majority, and the biggest plurality was no sanctions (even though the total votes for all sanctions combined were greater than those opposed to any sanctions).

  In theory, any close option would have been reasonable, but the one we got was simply incorrect about the facts of the discussion, and should therefore be reversed. Loki (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  If there's an RFC to choose a color for something, and 30% say blue, 25 percent say red a, 20 percent say red b, and 15 percent have opinions between red a and b, we don't count the obvious non-consensus blue, despite being the plurality, when deciding which red to go with. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  One obvious problem with that analogy is that in this case many of the people supporting Red B explicitly supported Blue over Red A. (I.e. many of the people supporting non-topic-ban sanctions explicitly supported no sanctions over a topic ban.)

  But also, it's your reading of the situation that "topic ban" and "warning" are more similar to each other than "warning" and "no sanctions". I think most of the people who supported a warning would dispute that. Loki (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. I was a "blue, but if not blue, red A" and then got talked to straight Red A. Lizthegrey (talk) 18:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Is a warning even a sanction? WP:Sanctions are explicitly defined as restrictions on editing Misplaced Pages. Shells-shells (talk) 19:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• As noted in the !vote count way up there, I was involved in this discussion. I had decided to wash my hands of it, figuratively speaking, and live with the outcome whatever it might be. However, having been pinged, I ought to say that I don't think this was a very good close. I generally agree with Shells-shells' comment above, as well as the concern about imposing sanctions based in part on off-wiki activity, and the "fruit of the poison tree" issue regarding sockpuppetry. Speaking generally about the last point: Even if comments by later editors raise serious, legitimate concerns, a bad opening can set an acrimonious tone and unduly sway the !votes of those who make up their minds at the top of a thread. Here, the argument seems to be that because the sock was so good at what they did, they should get a pass. From the premise that a consensus exists, it is deduced that how the thread began doesn't matter. I am wary of this. XOR'easter (talk) 18:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Here, the argument seems to be that because the sock was so good at what they did, they should get a pass. No, I think the argument is that when 73 editors participate in a discussion, we shouldn't just toss it aside because it was started by a sock. Levivich (talk) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Toss it aside? Probably not. Look askance at it and work extra hard to evaluate arguments on their strengths rather than by their numbers? Probably so. XOR'easter (talk) 19:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I believe the closer worked extra hard to evaluate arguments on their strengths rather than by their numbers, as evidenced by the closing statement. And anyway, why should we look askance at the !votes of 73 editors, just because the thread was started by a sock. Do you think my vote was somehow influenced by the sock? Was yours? Why should our votes be looked at askance? "Started by a sock" is just a technicality... what is the substantive reason why "started by a sock" has any bearing on 73 !votes? Levivich (talk) 19:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  The closing statement was exactly why I felt too much evidence was put on the numbers. If anyone wants to question my motives or judgment, hey, they're welcome. There probably has been some acrimonious drama-board development on this site with that many editors that wasn't a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth, but it's hard to think of one. XOR'easter (talk) 19:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  To say it another way: perhaps the difference between our views is encapsulated by how the more you repeat "73 !votes", the more I think "ANI is a disaster area that was the wrong venue for this in every way". The fact that it is wide open to sockpuppet attack only compounds the basic problem that it is a parody of a justice system where the accused has no representation, the jury is whoever decides to show up, and speaking in one's own defense counts as further indictment. ("WP:BLUDGEONing this very discussion!") Regardless of the outcome, this incident seriously weights the scale for me in favor of thinking that Misplaced Pages people can't solve problems. XOR'easter (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages is not a court system, it's a collaborative project. If someone is, on net, causing problems, they can be banned by the community. It's not like this is a life sentence either - she can appeal in the future, same as other topic bans. Crossroads 02:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Do you think my vote was somehow influenced by the sock?. Yes, it certainly was. For the very plain fact that if that sock hadn't posted at AN/I, you wouldn't have very critically examined this new editor who was creating articles in the most politically difficult topic domain on Misplaced Pages. I think that if we neutrally applied the "Levivich standard of editor perfection" towards the many clearly-activist-but-not-stupid-enough-to-boast-about-it-on-social-media editors in the GENSEX domain, there'd be a whole lot fewer of them. Maybe that would be a good thing, but it doesn't make what you did fair. -- Colin° 20:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Repeat: WP isn't a system of justice. Many things are short-term "unfair" in protecting the project from PoV pushers. As someone else here observed, NPOV is not served by pushing more PoV, by pushing the opposite of someone else's PoV. It's served by removing all the PoV pushers. That has to start with someone. Whoever is first to be removed from the topic area is always going to feel they were treated unfairly, but in the long run they were not. Even in the pretty-short run; it's clear that this editor was headed for proposed sactions from other parties anyway, and it's highly unlikely that the results would have been different if they had. That this particular discussion was opened by someone who later turned out to be a sock is a moot point, because the umpteen good-standing editors who participated in it were not socks. Their input is not magically invalidated by one participant being a bad actor. But this kind of excuse-making is rampant in the subject editor's own posts, e.g. that all the good she does in the topic area should make for mitigating circumstances (an ends-justify-the-means fallacy), and those of her backers (e.g. that WP "needs" her to fight off other bad-actors, which is fallacious for multiple reasons).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• I did not relish topic banning TT. Were I the Lord of Misplaced Pages, I'd probably have let her keep editing. I am unhappy at how our LGBTQ articles are covered, and TT was making a difference. But I'm not the Lord of Misplaced Pages. I'm an editor. I have to follow the rules. As a closer, it is my job to assess what the community wants and if that can happen within the limits of policy. Sometimes that job is very difficult. I spent a great deal of time working on this one. As the different vote counts above show, there are numerous ways to count the votes. Depending on how those numbers are presented, they could have supported several different outcomes. Here, the raw vote count was for a sanction. Of those supporting a sanction, the majority supported a topic ban. But that's the point: closing is about more than just counting. Otherwise, we wouldn't have closers. The bottom line is that the consensus of commenters agreed that TT was being tendentious and disruptive. As much as she filled a valuable niche, she was breaking a lot of rules to do it. Now, a number of editors, including in this close review, suggest that in removing TT from the topic area, it will only make things worse. This goes against almost every policy we have. The solution to POV pushing is not to have more POV pushing. POV pushing is not solved by having someone push the opposite POV. Its solved by removing all of the POV pushers and then following policies like DUE. If we're concerned about POV pushing in the topic area to the point that losing a single pro-trans editor is seen as a catastrophe, we have a much, much deeper problem. I thank Loki for acknowledging that they wished they'd have discussed this with me first, that might have simplified matters. I had discussed this close with TT on my talkpage, and I expressed a willingness to tweak my close to reflect that some felt the topic ban was better focused on BLP/BLPGROUP: I suggested a timed 6 month GENSEX tban (which some participants suggested, though I did not initially consider since there has been discussion in the past of timed sanction inefficiency), along with an indefinite BLP/BLPGROUP GENSEX tban. TT also objected to that, and at that point I disengaged, as TT was Wiki-lawyering with me. In fact, she is Wiki-lawyering in this very thread by trying to bring habeas corpus into this. We've expensed an entire book on this dispute; its time to let this one retire. CaptainEek ⚓ 18:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  If we're concerned about POV pushing in the topic area to the point that losing a single pro-trans editor is seen as a catastrophe, we have a much, much deeper problem.

  That's precisely the issue though: this decision just kicks the can down the road, while removing one of the few editors who prevented things from getting skewed out of proportion. TT's behavior was not ideal, and she should not have come out of this unscathed, but I'm seriously concerned this is going to result in a much worse conflict in the near future. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• I am sorry to sound blunt--TheTranarchist, you know I support your sincere commitment and editorial work in what is obviously a very challenging topic, but this entire discussion is turning a form of WP:BLUDGEONING in and of itself. One would think that a close performed by an experienced admin (and an arbitrator) of a thread that amounted to a Dostoyevsky novel would suffice, though here we are again. CaptainEek's close may not have been perfect--and I have doubts regarding their methodology per Shells-shells thoughtful analysis--but it nonetheless was considerate given the circumstances; they acknowledged TheTranarchist's contributions and determined the best course of action based on a variety of factors, including legitimate concerns about WP:ADVOCACY and WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. And now, we're back to the drawing board with yet another complaint. There is always "ok, I agree, this is fair, but..." and another voluminous chapter dissecting every single word of every single participant from all possible angles ensues. I am alarmed that there is no end in sight. And for the record, I had not cast a vote in the original thread. In fact, I had reiterated my support for TheTranarchist as a committed editor while explicitly recusing myself because I had previously helped her in editing Gays Against Groomers to conform with NPOV (there is still a lot of work to be done, though that is besides the point). Again, @TheTranarchist, I am not trying make it seem like I am against you, but you have admitted that there are other important topics you haven't had the time to focus on due to the GENSEX exhaustion. Just focus on those for now (as with other topics, I'll always be glad to lend a helping hand to the best of my abilities) and let's please move on. Ppt91 19:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Ppt91 Just to clarify, TheTranarchist didn't start this close review. And thanks for the thoughtful analysis comment. :) Shells-shells (talk) 19:40, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Ppt91 19:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I agree very much. I'm going to WP:DROPTHESTICK and back away, and hope others will too. Regardless of whether I feel the result is flawed, it is a result. Lizthegrey (talk) 20:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  If the community disagrees with me that the close is wrong, I'll back off, but not before then. I have no intent to "just move on" while (I feel) a good editor has been topic banned based on an alleged consensus that did not, in fact, exist. Loki (talk) 01:20, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• I think what CaptainEek wrote above is better than what they wrote in the closing comments. Wrt the closure, a problem with fully explaining one's rationale is that the more points one makes, the larger the surface area for attack, and the weakest points will be attacked first, making folk forget your strong point. I think it was a mistake to lead with a vote count, particularly when the division is contentious and disputable. Sticking a ! in front of the word vote is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card to then given vote counts merit. Really, when my time comes, I don't want to be at the mercy of a numerical count of how many haters turned up (or more likely got recruited) to lend their votes.

I think the whole section was unfair. I wasn't neutral but nor was I opposed to a TB. If you were suddenly required to sit your driving test in 30 minutes time, and if you failed, faced an indefinite ban on driving (you can resit your test no sooner than six months), how would you fare? For some of you, on a Saturday evening, you might not even be below the drink driving limit. How dare you exist with blood alcohol, you wretched person! For most of us, our lessons were so many decades ago that we'd quite clearly fail, and be hopeless in our knowledge of the Highway Code. How terrible that all these dreadful drivers are on our roads. Ban the ignorant and incompetent! That section should have been speedy closed as soon as we knew it was a banned sock. It wasn't and shame on Misplaced Pages for letting ourselves be abused by them. But it wasn't and I can understand the pressure CaptainEek faced to make the best of a bad situation. It would take a brave person to, at that point, tell everyone they had wasted their time. Might still have been the right thing to do, though.

When judging a closure, we need to weigh whether it was reasonable, not whether we agree with it. I don't think the penalty was unreasonably deviant from the views expressed.

But while I'm here.... The closure said While I think TheTranarchist was there in good faith, editors pointed out that she was approaching her editing from a WP:RGW perspective. Editors pointed out that her work on Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull was evidence of her creating near attack articles. That some editors cited RGW doesn't mean the closing admin has to uncritically repeat that. (And they didn't actually create that article, or contribute a large portion of it) This explanatory essay has become a misguided WP:UPPERCASE for a while now. Editors who disapprove of another's POV will cite RGW to discredit them. Please, read the linked text. This is actually about editors who wish to "correct" the facts contained in reliable publications and the opinions of respected knowledgeable published experts, with The Truth that "mainstream" have yet to grasp. In the case of medical treatment, mainstream medicine, in the case of law, current legislation. In the case of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, for example, this is someone campaigning against mainstream medicine and existing equality law. Reliable sources do not regard them favourably. This is not different to Andrew Wakefield who we openly describe as a fraud. Editors may vary in whether they think our existing medical approach wrt trans issues is the correct one and whether they think we should start banning some people from bathrooms and gymns, but lets be clear, in terms of stretching beyond what reliable sources and mainstream medicine advocate, it is the editors that The Trananarchist set themselves up against who are WP:RGW. So I'm disappointed that the closure repeated this falsehood. They may well have been over-enthusiastically battling for the mainstream/reliable-sources side (and plenty editors have foundered on those rocks, Jytdog being the classic example) but they aren't guilty of WP:RGW. If you want an essay that seeks to ban editors with a declared POV, please create a different one. -- Colin° 21:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

(And they didn't actually create that article, or contribute a large portion of it) I'd just like to point out that TheTranarchist objectively did create the article and over the article's history has contributed 80% of the text to it. That initial version does seem to qualify as "near attack articles". Not quite a G10, but much closer to G10 than acceptable BLP. The Wordsmith 22:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd been watching a show with a friend so just saw this, thank you for the correction! But I would like to say, that initial version is well-sourced and doesn't contain the problematic sources or content mentioned in the ANI case, and the most apparent issue to me with that version is that it's chronological instead of well-sectioned and therefor a bit of a jumble, but I did later work to section it out. The biggest problems came after she insulted me and I took it too personally and let it cloud my judgement in source selection, which I freely admit and profusely apologize for. I just read through and compared that version to the most recent one, and most details there are still present in the article. @Beccaynr, as the one who did the most work improving the article, could you comment on the state of the article and your view of my edits/work on it? Also perhaps this case and your thoughts on the evidence behind an intersectional or fully GENSEX ban. Whatever you feel about it, as the person who did the most work to clean up the article where my conduct most poorly reflected on me, I'd appreciate your comment and think everyone would find it valuable. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

TTA: please stop trying to re-litigate this. I don't think at this point the decision will change for the better, no matter how much evidence is presented. Take your lumps for now and give the issue some time to settle. Lizthegrey (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

My apologies, I am not trying to re-litigate, and I have been deliberately avoiding this thread as much as possible, I was just objecting to The Wordsmith's characterization of my initial version of KJK, and thought Beccaynr best to comment on it. As I was writing I figured I should ask for their general opinion, since whatever they say I feel it would be highly valuable. They fixed the KJK article, extensively went through my edits and sources, and also provided a thorough review on Gays Against Groomers. I have no clue what their opinion is on the close but just know they are in a good position to judge my case either way. Since I initially said I would step away, my only comment before this one was just to affirm that I thought CaptainEek was making the best of a bad situation and express my thanks to them. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:29, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

At this point, I think it would be better to let my comments from the AN/I thread about the KJK article at creation and afterwards stand (e.g. , ). I would have preferred the more orderly process of Arbcom to present evidence instead of AN/I, and I think that process in this instance could have helped address many concerns that are raised here now about the AN/I discussion. But we have a result after a long discussion that provides an opportunity for reflection and development, which in my general opinion, is a benefit for the encyclopedia, and I am glad you continue to engage in that process. Beccaynr (talk) 09:30, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

TheTranarchist (and The Wordsmith), this page is not to re-debate the quality of your edits to that page. My quotation of that sentence was to argue against the misguided citation or WP:RWG by the closing admin. Just because several people say something wrong, and very clearly wrong if you actually read the link, doesn't justify repeating it in closing arguments. TheTranarchist, I recommend recusing yourself from commenting on this discussion. -- Colin° 23:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@Colin: I strongly disagree. Our articles will expose Andrew Wakefield for the fraud he is because this is well documented in reliable secondary sources. By the same token, they will often document the nonsense in the gender critical movement and among right-wing opponents of transgender rights. However in all areas, we cannot get ahead of the curve or 'expose' stuff that has not already been documented in reliable secondary sources (or more rarely primary or tertiary ones). It does not matter whether an editor's general viewpoint is largely in agreement with reliable sources, they still need to limit their editing to writing balanced encyclopaedic articles which document what reliable sources say about a subject.

With Andrew Wakefield most of the time this isn't an issue. His nonsense is so well documented in reliable secondary sources that there's rarely a question. However with some of the people and groups TheTranarchist wants to expose, there's a fair chance this is not the case. (While in many ways a minor thing the category issue is one that comments to mind.) But in any event even with Andrew Wakefield, any editor here need to recognise that their purpose here has to be first and foremost to write balanced encyclopaedic articles in accordance with our policies and guidelines. If the editor believes that this is likely to expose Andrew Wakefield for the fraud that he is and that's a great thing an incentive for them to edit, that's fine provided they never forget the main reason they're here.

Actually the wider pseudoscience area is one where IMO we do have problems because editors seem to sometimes forget this but this isn't the place to discuss how we can fix that. Although I will note particular problem we have is how to handle cases where someone has said something whish is clearly against mainstream view as documented in reliable sources, and what they said has received some attention in reliable sources so that there may be justification for including it, but no one has particularly documented how what the particularly thing they said is in disagreement with the mainstream view, which is one thing anyone editing extensively GENSEX is likely to encounter a fair bit.

Using a different example, if an editor says they're here to write encyclopaedic articles which will document war crimes and other crimes against humanity commited by the Russian forces in Ukraine, that sounds fine. If an editor says they're here to expose the Russian invaders for the war criminals that they are I'd have deep concerns. I think it's fair to ensure that this editor understands their editing needs to be in accordance with our policies and guidelines. If they don't seem to be able to understand or keep insisting that there's no difference, then yes, I'd fully support topic banning this editor from the subject area for WP:RGW and other reasons no matter I may have sympathy to their goals or that their view is fairly mainstream.

A final example, personalised and hopefully you don't find this offensive. It's well documented that the US medical system is a mess complicated pricing structures that make big profits for questionable value, and require complicated things like app for people to navigate even simple stuff like buying pharmaceuticals. However this doesn't mean it's okay for editors to go around adding US drugs prices to help expose this mess. Again the primary purpose for editing here should be writing balanced encyclopaedic articles documenting what reliable sources have said in accordance with our policies and guidelines. It's fine for their secondary purpose to be to help correct some imbalance (especially WP:SYSTEMICBIAS) but this should never get ahead of their primary purpose. (To be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone involved was trying to RGW, simply using it as an example of why being in the mainstream doesn't mean all editors are fine.)

I've said this before and since I haven't convinced you before I don't think I'll convince you now so this will also probably be my lost comment on the matter. But again IMO you're clearly wrong on RGW. You incorrectly think it's more limited than it is, and it matters whether an editor's views are 'right' or 'wrong' or in accordance to the mainstream or not. While editors who's views are against the mainstream are more likely to have RGW problems, even an editor who's views are in accordance with the mainstream can have problems with RGW if their primary purpose here is to correct a 'wrong' no matter how well accepted it is that there is a 'wrong'.

IMO there's nothing in the essay, or in the policies and guidelines they come from to suggest the contrary. If you disagree, you need to start an RFC or similar to resolve this. In the absence of that, I'm entitled to cite RGW, and the close is entitled to read my view of the essay and the policies and guidelines from which it derives as a valid intepretation and to cite it as such. In the absence of community consensus on how RGW should be intepreted, you don't get to claim my view is wrong so must be discarded by the closing admin.

Nil Einne (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

In my view your statement that an editor who's views are in accordance with the mainstream can have problems with RGW if their primary purpose here is to correct a 'wrong' no matter how well accepted it is that there is a 'wrong' is directly contradicted by If, however, the wrong that you want to address has already been sorted in the real world, and if you have the reliable sources to support it, then please do update the articles (from WP:RGW). But I agree with you more than I disagree. In any case, would you consider leaving some useful advice down below for TheTranarchist? Shells-shells (talk) 08:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Nil Einne, you have argued passionately about a WP:RGW that is in your head, and may well be in the head of other editors who cite it, but it isn't what is written on that page. Some of your arguments about problematic editor motivation have merits, but they also have problems, and isn't actually what that page describes. You describe a fear that an editor who has expressed views might go too far. What that page is about is an actuality that an editor has added things to the page due to their motivation (and keeps adding them after being reverted, hence that are not supported by reliable sources, or are supportive of views that are fringe. The essay notes early on that all editors have bias and Bias is not in and of itself a problem in editors, only in articles. What happened on that ANI was that people saw "motivation" on the Mastodon page, and assumed they were RGW from the shortcut name alone. We aren't the thought police. Anyway, you are right that settling this matter belongs on another page. -- Colin° 09:21, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, @Colin, this is a good point. I could have sworn I'd seen this phenomenon before, where the title of a page has become the commonly accepted meaning of that page, even when the actual content says something very different. Good on you for making WP:UPPERCASE.This use of RGW bothered me a lot when reading the discussion. WP:RGW quite literally says that If, however, the wrong that you want to address has already been sorted in the real world, and if you have the reliable sources to support it, then please do update the articles (to be fair, this was only added by WhatamIdoing less than a year ago—though it has always been implied by the text). In this case it is already well-established in the mainstream that anti-LGBTQ activism is a wrong. Paradoxically, just because you may indeed want to right great wrongs does not mean your editing behavior falls under WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS—nor does having strong beliefs mean you are being WP:TENDENTIOUS. Shells-shells (talk) 22:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

And when I say always, I mean it. Diff from 2006: We can record the righting of great wrongs, but we can't ride the crest of the wave because we can only report that which is verifiable. To me, this statement directly implies the text quoted above. Shells-shells (talk) 22:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

When people have disputes about what's plainly verifiable/supported by WP:RS because they disagree on what's reliably out there, then it's back to yelling at each other about inappropriate WP:RGW though. :( Lizthegrey (talk) 22:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The Wordsmith I stand corrected. I looked back through some pages of history and clearly got the wrong impression. I've struck that but don't think it changes my point. Shells-shells, I'm not making a point about which side is right or wrong, which is part of why RGW is a terrible shortcut because editors will identify with the "right" side and their opponent with the "wrong" side. Mainstream medicine doesn't always get it right and neither does the law or public attitudes. But Misplaced Pages is here to document primarily the mainstream and be aligned with our best reliable sources, even if they are "wrong". I wonder if CaptainEek would consider striking that part of their close. Closure comments have a tendency to be cited as gospel. -- Colin° 23:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

No disagreement here. :) Shells-shells (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse close (involved). That the discussion was originally started by a sock is of essentially zero weight; arguing to dismiss it because of that (as was done in the original thread by some as well as some here) is, to be frank, basically WP:WIKILAWYERING and a case of the genetic fallacy. We are not a bureaucracy; the rest of the discussion is still valid. It is also very, very likely that had the sock never been there, a discussion would have been started soon thereafter by someone in good standing anyway, in which the rest would have followed much the same - that is where the numerous existing heated article talk page and content-noticeboard discussions were headed.Also, some of those opposing sanctions used invalid rationales along the lines of 'but we need her to resist the bad guys'. Furthermore, I don't recall opposers really addressing why this was different from the Stuartyeates case which ended up with an indefinite topic ban. The closure was well within CaptainEek's proper discretion as an admin and arb on a Contentious Topic. Crossroads 02:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse close While I did vote in favor of a temporary topic ban, I believe the administrator correctly evaluated the arguments regarding and their behavior. The close was more than fair. The community consensus was clearly in favor of a topic ban, either temporary or permanent. Attempting to split hairs does the entire project a disservice. We have spent enough time and energy on this discussion. It is time to move forward. The amount of arguing currently occurring is ridiculous. 2600:1700:1250:6D80:BD7A:3F1A:4C6B:2AD0 (talk) 19:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Not a good close. Uninvolved non-admin. The logic that a majority supported a sanction and of that, a majority supported a topic ban, is not how consensus is supposed to be read. If there's no consensus for what kind of sanction, the discussion should continue. However, I think this close is within acceptable discretion, but that doesn't make it a good closing statement nor does the statement within this discussion make it better. Consensus means that the preponderance of the policy-based argument should be in favor of a specific action but is not about counting votes or counting majorities. It is not unanimity, it is not a democratic exercise of majority voting. It is about a policy-based discussion that has to have weight and rationality considered in terms of our policy. It is possible that there would be such an outcome through discretion at any rate but again, that does not make it a closing statement that adequately explained how it was arrived at. Andre🚐 22:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Weakly endorse close (involved). There was clearly consensus for some form of a TBAN, and the closer has provided a rationale that seems reasonable enough to me. I am not sure that I would have closed the same way (I would have opted for the more narrow TBAN in light of the comments made), but I don't think this was outside the bounds of admin discretion, and I may be biased in that I wanted the tban to be a bit narrower than most who wanted a tban. That being said, I do think that the editor has the potential to show improvement, and I would earnestly entertain an appeal in six months so long as the editor abides by the existing TBAN going forward. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse close - CaptainEek did a good job here. --Malerooster (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose close – Gonna be honest, this really does stink something rotten. It was very clear that people were using the discussion to try to ban someone on the opposite side of an editing dispute. Misplaced Pages already has an institutional transphobia problem; this only serves to entrench the hostile environment against trans editors. Sceptre (talk) 00:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse close as someone who is actually uninvolved, has no interactions with Tranarchist and didn't participate in the ANI. CaptainEek's rationale seems fine and a lot more thought out than what's typically found at ANI, even for contentious decisions. Looking at the above comments its clear that 1) almost everyone is involved, 2) editors who supported restrictions all endorse the close and 3) editors who opposed restrictions all oppose the close. i.e., it's just a resuscitation of an ANI thread that has run its course. Unsurprising, and unless actual uninvolved editors have concerns on the closure it's time to drop this WP:DEADHORSE. Also, worth noting that CaptainEek was specifically asked by Tranarchist to perform the close. Not that it means anything, but you would think that would reduce the no. of complaints on the restrictions being unfair... and yet here we are. Satellizer el Bridget 00:42, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse close I didn't comment at ANI and I don't contribute in this topic area. As an uninvolved editor I believe that CaptainEek acted well within Admin discretion, his reasoning was sound and his decision reflected the (policy based) views of most editors who commented. It's clear a topic ban is necessary to reduce disruption in the area - the off-wiki commentary was enough in itself. No need for another time-sink War & Peace-like thread. --DSQ (talk) 07:20, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse close After reading through the entire lengthy thread on ANI, I don't see how the closer could have come to any other conclusion. -- Mike 🗩 21:06, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose close I have to agree with Sceptre here. This discussion, I admit, it a bit hard to follow, but the rationale of those who want a TBan seems flawed in more ways than one. From my experience, the edits by TheTranarchist have been fine, and I only see this ban as furthering existing problems on here. It also seems strange that people are on the case of TheTranarchist for "violating" the ban, even though those comments are primarily on this discussion.Historyday01 (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

How can I improve as an editor?

However this goes, either a BLP/ORG or a GENSEX TBAN, I want to receive all the advice and key takeaways people have from all this on what I should be doing to improve and prove myself as an editor - I will not reply to them here but demonstrate them in the coming months with my behavior. I confess to wanting to at least be able to wiki-gnome in LGBT articles such as medicine, rights, and history, where my edits haven't been contested and only praised, even just as suggestions on talk so I can prove my contributions worthy, but I have already been sorting out which non-GENSEX topics I'll also be working on regardless. The way I see it, about half called for a GENSEX ban, about half opposed, and many in the middle or on either side expressed support for a targeted sanction or TBAN on GENSEX WP:BLPs/WP:ORGs, which I feel the most proportionate and consensus-based response, while accepting that the community differs and holding myself to it. I'm not about to shoot myself in the foot by evading the outcome of this, I have already recused myself completely of GENSEX until such time as the community finds me ready to join again. This is my final comment even here, as I'm not touching GENSEX with a 39-and-a-half-foot poll until I'm expressly granted the ability to do so. I appreciate any and all's thoughts on what I'll need to have demonstrated in the coming months and ways I can prove myself capable of writing in the BLP/ORG and/or GENSEX area in the future. I believe it's fair that there's a standard to which I can expect to be held for my appeal.TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)TheTranarchist

( Peanut gallery comment) Of course it's only been three hours (I'm sure the comments will start flowing in soon enough), but I would point out that some concrete editing advice here or at TheTranarchist's talk page would go a long way towards changing my current opinion that Punishment has replaced correction in this topic area. Shells-shells (talk) 03:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tranarchist: I'm very relieved to see that this situation has not discouraged you from continuing to contribute here, even in the short term, as it very easily could have done. To be honest, this request is already the best possible start on making clear why you would be fit to return to the area in question at the earliest opportunity.

As to the request itself, my recommendation would be to find a couple of topic areas that you think you would be able to contribute valuable content or guidance to, but which you are completely agnostic to, where it comes to the most divisive issues of said topic area. This is the easiest way to develop a compelling "muscle memory" (if you'll forgive an attenuated metaphor) for parsing controversial determinations, which reflexes will impact your approach when you edit in the areas you are more passionate about. Or, if you want the same effect from a psuedo-randomized process, you could peruse the WP:FRS list and sign up to participate in randomly-selected RfCs from particular topic areas. I did that relatively early in my time here, and now that I think about it, I think it might be the influence which most directly contributed to my being a more well-rounded contributor (if indeed I am one at all--opinions may vary on that count). SnowRise 09:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I note you say you have expertise in a historical topic area... ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Create rules for yourself about the number of times you're willing to participate in a discussion, and stick to those rules even when someone continues to be wrong. A wise Wikipedian once told me that if he finds himself in an argument, he tries to limit himself to two comments and then walks away no matter what. That way he puts more thought into those comments and avoids repeating himself. I'd add that it makes other people more likely to read what you write if you have that kind of reputation. Personally, I don't go by a number, but try to step back if I find myself feeling emotionally invested, find that I'm repeating myself, or realize I'm in a hopeless back-and-forth (as though my response, twelve indents deep, is going to change someone's mind or influence the discussion in any constructive way). Also, making sure that you have some less controversial article projects helps, too. — Rhododendrites \\ 15:50, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

My advice would be to find a subject area that interests you, but that you don't care passionately about, and get stuck into writing articles about that for a while. Get into the habit of writing with the simple objective of summarising what the best sources say about the subject, without any other agenda. You might find that people still disagree with what you write or the sources you use, but you won't be so invested in it, which will make it easier to resolve disagreements amicably. Personally, I mostly write about historic buildings; try to find your own niche. People will recognise and appreciate quality content work devoid of drama, and will likely be content to give you another chance at the GENSEX topic area in a few short months. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I would recommend taking an article that's uncontroversial and a quiet area, maybe a stub/redlink or one that needs extensive cleanup, and taking it through DYK, Peer Review and GA. FA would be great too, though those standards are a very high bar. I did it on White Night riots a long time ago (which I now see needs some more work, but standards were lower at the time) and it was an incredibly rewarding experience that taught me a lot about proper researching, sourcing and weighting. Part of it even included contacting a BLP subject and learning how to properly interact with them, while I reached out to photographer and activist Daniel Nicoletta to convince him to license his iconic photo of the event. I'm sure there's an uncontroversial topic that you're interested in that would benefit from that treatment while still giving you the opportunity for outside input without the pressure cooker that is the GENSEX area. The Wordsmith 17:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to mention that if you achieved that, and didn't have any further conduct issues, I would almost certainly endorse an appeal in six months. The Wordsmith 17:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Seconded. @TheTranarchist please feel free to ping me when the time period has elapsed and I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing your contributions. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that this discussion be held on your talk page. I don't think the administrators' noticeboard is a good place to fill up with personal recommendations. isaacl (talk) 05:20, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Moving forward: Deferring GENSEX cases to AE

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Should the community encourage or require GENSEX cases to be brought at AE, or make no change? 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Potential encouragement ("soft") and requirement ("hard") wordings are given below; these are not the only wordings that could be used.

• Soft: Something like Reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies are usually best-suited to Arbitration enforcement (AE), except when the matter is very straightforward or when AE is unavailable for procedural reasons (for instance, a requested sanction exceeds AE's authority, or a party against whom sanctions are sought is not aware). Beyond these two exceptions, any uninvolved administrator may, at their discretion and at any time, close an AN or AN/I discussion in this topic area in favor of review at AE; if the filer would not be able to start the thread, the admin should do so for them.
• Hard: Something like Reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies, other than truly unambiguous disruption, should be filed at Arbitration enforcement (AE) unless there is a procedural reason that AE would not be suitable (for instance, a requested sanction exceeds AE's authority, or a party against whom sanctions are sought is not aware). Any uninvolved editor may speedily close a thread brought in contravention of this rule, directing the filer to AE; if the filer would not be able to start the thread, the closer should do so for them

-- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Nom statement : So, whatever the outcome of the above, it's clear that the thread was a shitshow. And the Newimpartial thread was a shitshow. In fact every GENSEX thread I can recall at AN(I) since I resumed editing 2 years ago has been a shitshow, apart from slam-dunk "new user using slurs"–type reports.We have a venue for this. It is called Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement. It avoids basically all of the BS we see in these kinds of contentious threads. The vast majority of AN(I) GENSEX discussions fall within concurrent AE jurisdiction, especially now that WP:AC/CT has loosened the definition of sanction awareness. There is no reason that we need to continue hearing these cases at AN(I) if we don't want to... and does anyone actually want to?I've had this idea bouncing around my head the past week and it's just seemed more and more reasonable as things have progressed, especially as we've seen difficulties in finding admins willing to close these threads. Thoughts? -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• I would oppose, as I dislike the precedent this would set - AE and ArbCom are there to supplement, not replace, the self-management of the broader community. BilledMammal (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I would also suggest that you convert this to an WP:RFC, as editors have begun to !vote on it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I mean this completely sincerely: if someone in the community thinks the community can self-manage a topic area that is under CT, I would encourage them to go to WP:ARCA and to ask us to revoke the Contentious Topic designation for that topic area. We should not have the extraordinary grant of power, which is ArbCom delegating its broad authority directly to admins, is the community can handle it. I have repeatedly supported ways to eliminate areas from the CT/DS designation or to narrow their scope (see AP2) precisely because I think the community should handle what it can. So if something is a designated CT it means to me that the community isn't, at this time, able to self-manage that topic area and if the community actually is able to self-manage we need to restore the area to normal rules for admins and editors. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC) Edit: I should note I was making a general point here about any given CT. I think there are reasons to do and not to do this proposal of Tamzin's so am not expressing an opinion on that. Merely responding to Billed Mammal's thinking of how CT exists with-in dispute resolution. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I might do that for some of the more obscure CT's, but to clarify my point here wasn't that I think that the community can fully self-manage this topic area, but that the community can partially self-manage every topic area that is under CT, and I don't want to set the precedent that they can't. BilledMammal (talk) 19:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  This goes back to our discussion last September. I appreciate your viewpoint that the community has failed to manage disputes in areas formally identified as contentious topics. Nonetheless, I think the arbitration enforcement system will be overloaded if every dispute is just passed up the chain automatically. I think editors need to exercise judgement and continue to try to handle issues at the lowest level possible. isaacl (talk) 22:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support hard - The Newimpartial and Tranarchist threads were among the worst things I've seen on this site when it comes to wiki drama. No need to have such a thing when AE can do it cleaner and more efficiently. I also believe this would lead to better results for everyone involved since we won't have involved users contributing, which undermines the integrity of consensus imo. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 18:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

My reservations that an admin panel at AE cannot handle certain types of disruption that require topic familiarity that skirts the edge of what we consider WP:INVOLVED aside, I'm somewhat in favour of the hard proposal, but either could work for me.

The biggest technical hurdle I see for making AE the primary/sole noticeboard for this would be the requirement that AE requires autoconfirmed before you can post a thread without it being removed. That obviously rules out editors with less than 10 edits over 4 days, but also rules out IP editors. If this does go ahead, a common sense exception for WP:MEAT might need to be made so that any uninvolved editor/admin, at their discretion can move/re-post the thread at AE on behalf of the non-autoconfirmed editor, with the checks and balances that the editor moving the discussion takes some responsibility for the move. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sideswipe9th: In my mind, the AE autoconfirmed requirement would fall under "unavailable for procedural reasons". So would clear lack of awareness or requests for sanctions that exceed AE's powers (most notably sitebans). If that should be clearer in either proposed wording, I'm happy to clarify. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Aah yeah. If you do follow through with BilledMammal's suggestion above of converting this to an RfC, I would suggest clarifying that in the wording before making it a RfC. Otherwise, unless this side discussion becomes a monster thread of its own, it's probably fine just being clarified in these replies for now. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose. There are cases when reports can involve multiple issues. If only one of those issues is editing in GENSEX, it should not be the case that we are more or less requiring this sort of stuff to be sent to WP:AE. Reports involving gender-related disputes or controversies are usually best-suited to Arbitration enforcement is overly broad, even in the soft version.WP:AE can also be really difficult when trying to demonstrate issues that draw evidence from a large number of diffs (there's a hard cap on 20 diffs). I agree that WP:ANI has problems when it comes to these sorts of disputes inasmuch as it draws a lot of tangentially involved people to these discussions, but I do think that the filer should be able to elect to go to WP:ANI if they think that the open-ended format of the noticeboard will allow them to communicate their concerns more clearly to the community. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  In light of Tamzin's amending of the RfC prompt above, I'm amending my !vote for relevance. I still don't like the phrasing close an AN or AN/I discussion in this topic area (I'd prefer something like close an AN or AN/I discussion about disputes primarily involving conduct in WP:GENSEX so as to be extremely explicit regarding when admins can and cannot close ANI discussions), so I remain weakly opposed at this time. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• For what its worth, as I read through the thread, I did think "much of this would have been avoided had this been transferred to, or originally filed at, AE." CaptainEek ⚓ 18:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support, undecided on variant. It's a CT for a reason; using CT procedures for a CT is a nobrainer. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Question: if this is becoming an RfC, where is the text actually proposed to be added? ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:57, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I imagine this could work as a standard community-authorized general sanction. It doesn't need to go into policy anywhere. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Why would it be a general sanction? Why is it not just a noticeboard procedural rule along the liens of "you must notify someone you're reporting"? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Specifically, support the soft variant. "Truly unambiguous" bothers me on the harder variant, thinking of cases like the recent Scapulus, who was handled swiftly at ANI, but where some editors did see it fit to show up later to complain about freeze peach. Clearly this was addressed well at ANI, but "truly unambiguous" is at least not unambiguous in this case. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I wrestled a lot with that wording (and the closer can always take note of general support for one option or the other, but not for some specific wording, and implement accordingly). But to explain my reasoning, the core challenge is that there have been a lot of cases—both with editors seen as anti-trans and those seen as pro-trans—where someone has felt "Surely this is blatant disruption, easy indef", and it's turned into days or weeks of nonsense. So I acknowledge that "truly unambiguous" is really strong wording, but it's the best shorthand I could think of for "Disruption that you, ideally as an experienced user familiar with what is and isn't considered disruptive in GENSEX, know will lead to a summary indef." Common sense would, of course, continue to govern either of these options, and AE would always have its inherent authority to reject a case, thereby making itself procedurally unavailable and allowing AN(I) to proceed. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  SnowRise brings up another point I didn't notice, that according to the hard option, any uninvolved editor could close a thread they deem should be at AE. I think this is an exceptionally bad idea. This means that even in a case where admins are unanimous that some behaviour is unacceptable, any sufficiently out-of-touch editor could declare a case not unambiguous enough and complicate the process excessively. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 20:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support hard As I mentioned above, (... it appears that is now simple for editors with a certain POV ... to remove other editors who oppose them from contentious areas without using the correct venue, which would be AE) when these discussions end up with the community they turn into the inevitable shitshows that this one and the NewImpartial one have been. We simply need to remove them from this arena, because otherwise the next one will be exactly the same. Black Kite (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Converted to RfC per comments above, with some tweaks to wording per @Sideswipe9th and Red-tailed hawk. More generally, I stress that the wording above is just two ideas of how to do this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support with a preference for the hard variant, as I think the future will be like the past. I can appreciate the potential problem that a report can cross over multiple issues, but experience leads me to think that the most disaster-prone issue within such a report will dominate. A report that includes both a GENSEX issue and, say, edit-warring over WP:CITEVAR will become a trainwreck over the former. XOR'easter (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I don't know what the solution is. This topic is one of several prime candidates for WP:ADVOCACY, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:SPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:PUSH, WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT and WP:NOTHERE. I don't like advocacy editing, but equally well we may need a balance of editors who have strong POVs to bring in-depth knowledge to controversial articles. It can't be allowed to be beneficial to WP:WIKILAWYER and gang up on opponents or we will get more SPAs and non-autoconfirmed users pig piling on culture war enemies. From what I have seen the normal ANI process works pretty well, and the admins manage to separate behavioral issues from content. The whole !vote thing is problematic because as we see a big deal is made of distilling it down to numbers rather than the much-touted abstract "consensus". Whatever the solution, I think this topic and a few others like it stand to test Misplaced Pages's processes for dealing with problem editors. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Immensely strong oppose. First off, this is a procedurally invalid proposal, even with the addition of the RfC tag: enforceable rules regarding disruption (particularly those with such broad implications for arresting disruption across a vast swath of articles) cannot be made by the admin regulars of AN alone, supplemented merely by the editors already involved in this singular dispute and a handful of others brought in by a FRS notice. If you want create binding guidelines on this project, you need to use the WP:PROPOSAL process: identify the WP:PAG you want to alter (or suggest a new standalone policy namespace), and then host a discussion on that policy's talk page with a notice at VPP, or just host the discussion at the Village Pump to begin. AN is absolutely not the right (indeed, is arguably the worst) forum to be suggesting new policy. If this should go further rather than being swiftly shot down, the discussion needs to be moved.

Second, putting aside the procedural considerations, I think the proposal (good faith though it obviously is) is a non-starter on its merits as well. Mind you, I think the present case giving rise to this proposal probably is an instance of a case that arguably should have gone to AE. But creating a mandate that all behavioural concerns arising out of GENSEX topics go to AE, aside from being inconsistent with how we handle every other WP:CTOP (our new handle for discretionary sanctions for those unfamiliar) issue, is clearly an unworkable proposition under our current community schema for arresting disruptive behaviour--and the particular wording proposed here (in both variants) only further invites confusion and difficulty. Without meaning offense to Tamzin, it's the worst kind of rule cruft where the community clearly needs some degree of flexibility and redundancy. While I do believe that CTOP should be invoked more liberally in edge cases to bring matters to AE (as a more streamlined process less amenable to pile-on by biased/involved parties) ANI has an absolutely vital role in allowing the community to review and correct long-term behavioural concerns in a way that this overbroad proposal would clearly and significantly abrogate, for limited gain.

Under this suggestion, any behavioural issue imputing the GENSEX topic area would be effectively stripped out of the hands of the broader community to impose CBANs or otherwise address disruption, and those decisions held in reserve for editors with a high level of permissions at AE. While I reiterate that this would actually be a good thing in a non-trivial number of cases, as we should use AE more extensively than we do for CTOP issues, a firm requirement directing all disruption involving GENSEX to AE is clearly overkill that would significantly reduce the broader community's ability to adjudicate longterm issues and otherwise jam-up our ability to effectively arrest disruption. Further, encouraging rank and file editors to start closing down ANI discussions that touch upon certain topic areas (in a way that would currently be treated as clear disruption itself) would be ripe for abuse: anybody who's spent any degree of time at ANI can predict just how flexible a vast number of editors will be with judging themselves as "uninvolved" in the dispute: the technical excuse that they didn't participate in the immediate dispute would still permits editors who are heavily involved in the issues in general (or who have beef with the filer, or are regular defenders of someone who comes to ANI again and again) to thwart oversight by invoking this rule.

Honestly, I could go on for quite a while: there are so many potential knock-on effects to this proposal which would needlessly complicate addressing user conduct in this topic area, and so many ways that it's one-size-fits-all approach does not connect with our current otherwise context-sensitive (and somewhat overlapping, as a good thing) remit of different forums for addressing disruption. But the overarching concern is that it drastically reduces the community's options for little practical gain, pulls oversight for determinations that ultimately should fall into the broader community's hands on occasion, and would introduce all kinds of opportunities for gamesmanship (ostensibly the very thing it comes to address). I just think it's a very poorly considered proposal. But again, if nothing else, it needs to be considered by the community at large in an appropriate forum, which AN decidedly is not. SnowRise 19:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't really understand your procedural objection, Snow Rise. This proposes rules that would apply only to WP:AN and WP:AN/I. There's not even any change in how AE would operate, other than possibly getting more GENSEX cases than before. This is a vastly less impactful change than, say, placing WP:GS/RUSUKR under an extendedconfirmed restriction, which was handled by a simple thread at AN/I. I don't even think an RfC was strictly required here, but I'm following the path of least resistance.As to the various negative effects you're worried about, I guess I'll focus on one thing you've said: ANI has an absolutely vital role in allowing the community to review and correct long-term behavioural concerns. Can you point to evidence of this actually being the case in the GENSEX area? In GENSEX AN/I threads I've been involved in, even when there's been some ultimate consensus, I really can't think of any that I would say show healthy self-governance. This strongly negative view of AN/I's handling of GENSEX issues is shared by, as of this comment, every commenter in this thread who substantially edits in the topic area, including ones who often sharply differ on content matters. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 20:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tamzin: I'm going to divide my responses between two posts, since these are semi-discrete issues, in order to faciliate any response and further discussion that may result:

• Regarding the procedural/placement issue, the mere fact that this change would pertain to how ANI operates hardly means that it will impact only the regular (mostly admin) editors at AN--let alone that it would only be of interest to this highly select segment of the community. This change would impact a vast number of editors working accross countless articles who may have recourse to bring behavioural concerns to the community at ANI. For that matter, considering almost every single hypothetical future thread that this proposal would seek to invalidate would typically have landed at ANI, rather than AN, placing it here rarifies the air even further, in terms of the regular editors who are likely to see it based on it's placement.

This is clearly not an "AN/I only" issue: it very obviously touches upon fundamental authority, consensus process of, and decision making generally reserved to the community at large (as opposed to the administrative corps in particular) and the proposal would heavily impact the community's ability to address long-term disruption in a particular topic area, relative to how literally all others operate. Such a discussion should take place in a cnetralized and highly visible community space, not just within site of a handful of admins, those already connected to a singular dispute, and handful of others pulled in via a typical FRS. At an absolute minimum you should make a posting a notice about this discussion at the village Pump and making sure the discussion is on the WP:CD ticker. And frankly, I just strongly recommend you move the entire discussion to VP itself. Otherwise, even if you get a consensus for the proposal here, you are just begging for an uproar afterwards, with accusations of an admin power grab, however good faith the intention here. I mean, if nothing else, what is the good-faith, community-respectful argument against moving this to a place where the community at large is more likely to be able to be aware of and weigh in on it? SnowRise 21:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

On the proposal impacting on the "community's ability to address long-term disruption in a particular topic area", how would you respond to the point raised above by Barkeep49 that I'd like to build upon in the next paragraph. Not sure if this should be a reply to your first or second point however, if you feel that it's better answered in response to the second, feel free to move this comment as a reply to your second point.

Because prior disruption in this content area has required significant ArbCom intervention, and the committee's remit is to operate on serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve, has the community already not demonstrated a significant inability to address long-term disruption in this content area? Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

No, with all due respect to Barkeep, that is a conclusion I believe is unsupported by compelling evidence, and certainly not one I am aware of ever having been endorsed by the community or by ArbCom in particular. WP:Contentious topics are not labelled as such because the community has a laisez-faire attitude towards them or has fundamentally failed to try to address them, or is per se incapable of doing so. Rather these are topics that are inherently divisive in the broader social systems of our societies at large, and thus such biases and conflicts are simply more easily imported into this project when topics are discussed/edit upon here, relative to some others, for completely obvious reasons. None of that militates for the conclusion that the broader community and our long-established rules and processes do not have a central role to play in addressing a heightened level of disruption in such areas--either as a general matter or, certainly, in terms of an express point of community consensus that has ever been adopted on this project. When we say "contentious topic" we mean "contentious topic", not "a topic the general community does not have a role in regulating". That's a massive non-sequitor and leap in logic, in my opinion.

CTOP (and DS before it) exists merely to grant relaxed use of certain tools in areas where rapid response to disruption is more likely to be needed, not to declare the rest of the community as irrelevant to such a fundamental function: if anything, the existence of a CTOP determination for a particular topic increases the likelihood the broader community may have to occasionally intervene directly concerning disruption connected with that topic, not that it should be forbidden access to it's normal role in that process: that's an incredibly counter-intuitive read on the purpose of CTOP in my opinion, and certainly not captured anywhere in the policy pages that describe those processes.

And again, I say this while being broadly supportive of an hierarchy and an important division of labor running adjacent to the community->admin corps->ArbCom->WMF ladder. But this particular proposal would take a particular topic area and isolate it more or less entirely from established non-admin community tools and norms for expressing consensus on problematic behaviour, and taking consensus action accordingly. I just don't see how that can be justified on the mere basis that this is a highly divisive subject matter: so are countless other topics, including (by definition) every other WP:CTOP subject. Are we going to follow suit for each of those topic areas and essentially hand the entirety of our decision-making apparatus on behavioural issues surrounding contentious topics to the administrative corps alone? I very much hope not: I think it would be an immensely detrimental development in the history of this project. Regardless, such a massive change to the status-quo with such significant impacts upon how we conduct this project and hold eachother accountable to community standards absolutely must be discussed with the fullest possible involvement of the community at large, not just here in the hallowed halls of AN. SnowRise 23:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

On the conclusion from Barkeep I've built upon, the Arbitration policy that I linked to before, and was ratified by the community, does pretty clearly state that the Committee's remit is to handle content areas that the community has been unable to resolve.

WP:Contentious topics are not labelled as such because the community has a laisez-faire attitude towards them or has fundamentally failed to try to address them,...Rather these are topics that are inherently divisive in the broader social systems of our societies at large, and thus such biases and conflicts are simply more easily imported into this project when topics are discussed/edit upon here Those two things aren't necessarily separate. Yes some of the CTOP topics are inherently divisive in broader social systems off-wiki, but because of that many of them are also topics that the community has historically had an inability to address. Some exceptions to this apply, for example while the Shakespeare authorship question is a CTOP area, outside of Shakespearean scholars and literary historians it's not really a topic that's divisive in a broader social context. As would the very Misplaced Pages specific Manual of Style and Article titles and BLP areas.

Let me put it to you another way. If was the community who had authorised the sanctions, even if ultimately the end result of the AE and wider discretionary powers for admins is the same, that would have been a clear demonstration that the community was able to handle disruption. However because this required an ArbCom case to be put in place, that alone is a pretty strong indicator to me that this is a content area that the community, for whatever reason, is unable to handle. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I think I've left myself open to being misconstrued by not being as clear as I could and should have been and so that has happened in this discussion. What I have said is that the community cannot self-manage Contentious Topics. If the community were self-sufficient and able to self-manage it would be inappropriate for it to be an ArbCom designated Contentious Topic. On the whole I am of the firm belief that this community is incredibly capable of handling large and thorny problems of both content (which is obviously out of bounds for ArbCom) and conduct. Because of this I think some members of the community will sometimes think that Contentious Topic is just a shortcut to make life easier - in this case I saw it in Billed Mammal's stating that ArbCom is supplementing the community in Contentious Topics. It goes beyond that. In a designated Contentious Topic there are going to be significant shortcomings in the community's abilities to self-manage. But being unable to self-manage does not mean the community finds itself helpless in managing a Contentious Topic. Hence my edited comment that there are reasons to do and not to do this proposal, which I continue to have no real opinion on. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Barkeep: your observations described in those terms, my own perspective substantially overlaps with yours. Sideswipe9th my response also touches upon your last post, but I'm doubling up here in responding to Barkeep to avoid redundancy. Let us assume for the moment that a CTOp being invoked in a topic area is a tacit statement that the community has been unable to handle issues in a topic area with the usual tools. I think the reality is quite a bit more complicated than that, but let's take that for granted in the present discussion so we can move on to more central points. Because the more critical/dispositive consideration here is that the increased tools that CTOP authorizes are meant to supplement existing administrative and community actions, not replace them. Even if we assume that any time ArbCom authorizes CTOP in a given area, it comes inherent with the message that the community is not getting the job done with typical methods, that is still a non-sequitor with the conclusion that ArbCom has declared that the rst of the community is not to take its own actions to arrest disruption in that area, where and when it can (be it at ANI or wherever). Not only does that conclusion not follow from the given premise, but we have a massive body of processes where the community clearly does regularly restrain problematic editors in CTOP/historical DS through processes taking place outside of AE. And this parallel activity has been undertaken as long as DS/CTOP have existed.

So the end result remains the same: a finding of CTOP in no way forestalls the broader community from exercising it's own prerogative to implement TBANs or other CBANs (to take just one example of what the community is permitted to do in CTOP areas). Surely if the contrary was the case, we would have adjusted the relevant policies on CBANs to reflect this fact years ago. CTOP merely authorizes the use of advanced tools to block or otherwise restrain problematic actors a little faster, and makes WP:AE an option for reporting and getting a faster administrative response. What CTOP clearly does not do is forbid the community at large from also using its own discretion in conjunction with these liberalized tools, as it can (and does) use such community decisions/CBANs parallel to regular administrative blocks, in any other topic area where disruption arises. Again, that would be an absurd conclusion: why would we want the community to be less proactive in responding to areas of heightened disruption? Clearly we want (or at least entertain the occasional need for) increased use of CBANs alongside the use of CTOP/1RR blocks and AE filings. Insofar as CTOP/DS language has ever said "DS/CTOP is meant for areas where the community is having trouble keeping the disruption in check", it is for the purpose of explaining the need for looser standards for when warnings, blocks, and other preventative administrative actions can take place--not for the purposes of saying "these issues can now only be addressed at AE". If it were the latter, then countless of our policies and much of the history community bans would read completely differently. SnowRise 01:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

What I think this very fair analysis of Contentious Topics misses out on is that certain editors/discussions are, themselves, signals that the community is unable to handle something. This is why not only can admin act sooner and sanction with more severity than they can outside a CT topic area (what SR focuses on) but also can act with first mover advantage and knowing that their actions are less likely to be overturned on formal appeal because of the higher than normal requirements. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• As to the substantive arguments, you may very well be correct that regulars in the GENSEX space consider ANI an intractable travesty: while my background and editorial interests in both biopsychology and human rights semi-frequently bring me into contact with existing disputes in this topic area, I don't engage with the area with the regularity of such editors. However, a few thoughts as to that: first off, that is not exactly a rare perspective about ANI's complications, issues, and the general caliber of discussion there from editors in...oh, I don't know, let's say every single topic area under the sun. That low opinion of what can happen at ANI (unavodiable to a certain extent by virtue of the fact that it specializes in intractable disputes) does not automatically invalidate the role that space serves or the necessity for preserving the ability for concerned community members to bring issues there for the community's consideration.

So I would say the onus is upon you as the party proposing such a massive carve-out to explain why this one topic area should deviate so drastically from how our policies and procedures operate for every other topic. I mean, have you even considered the fact that your proposal would essentially make it impossible for any disruptive party in the GENSEX area to hereafter ever receive a CBAN from that area (or the project in general) as a result of their conduct? That's a pretty humongous abrogation of the community's inherent purview as it has historically existed on this project--and yet also just one of several such outsized implications of the proposal. Is GENSEX so much more inherently disruptive an area so as to seize the entirety of all such determinations from the community at large, even when compared against other DS/CTOP topics? I just don't think so. The community needs to be able to weight in on longterm abuse regardless of the topic area, and your proposal would instead shift that role entirely to just those admins participating at AE. That's incredibly problematic to me, for more reasons than I can begin to list here.

For that matter, putting aside for the moment how extensively this proposal would usurp the broader community's role in preventing disruption in this area, and hamstring our ability to respond to longterm abuse, I am equally, if not more, concerned about the impacts upon the interests of the reported parties. For all the issues inherent to ANI, it does permit for more shades of grey to enter the discourse than does AE. Taking TT's case as an example, some of us were compelled to modulate our recommendations based on the nitty-gritty details and context of the dispute. Let's remember that the responding admin at AE has a fundamentally different role from the closer of an ANI thread. At ANI the closer must, to some degree, take stock of any ameliorating factors which gained significant support among respondents, because they are finding a community consensus in the discussion. At AE, the admin's role is much more that of the party actually making the determination in the first instance, based on the information provided by involved parties. That's a fundamental difference that effectively narrows the decision making from a group (which can, in the aggregate, often reach a more nuanced and reasonable conclusion that balances competing interests) to a single person, who is more likely to act in a very black and white (or at least far more idiosyncratic) fashion.

Again, sometimes that is precisely what we want, for the sake of efficiency and fairness. But often we want the broader community weighing in, in complicated or nuanced cases with competing community interests, and creating a blanket rule that would just completely pull that decision making into the authority of a increasingly smaller subset of the community is a bad direction to take, and even more questionable when you consider that the proposal is that we do it for a given topic area on the justification that "it gets ugly at ANI sometimes when we discuss this subject matter", because 1) what topic would that not apply to? and 2) sometimes the areas with the most contention behind them are the ones we want the community at large to be able to dig into, to avoid oversimplifcation in the handling of those disputes. SnowRise 21:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Moral support - I'm generally in favor of making ANI operate more like AE (read: get rid of threaded discussions between the OP and accused party), and thus for as long as AN/I continues to not look like that, I'd generally support delegating more to AE over ANI. But, I do agree with Snow that there's procedural issues with raising this proposal here (at least as anything other than testing the waters), and beyond that would be more in favor of a proposal that cuts down on threaded discussion at ANI rather than just delegating work away from there in a piecemeal fashion. _signed, Rosguill 20:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Reading through the proposal again, I guess my above reasoning puts me in the soft camp? But I don't think we need more guidance for this topic area so much as modest changes to how ANI operates, and for as long as ANI continues to be a free-for-all, AE will be a preferable forum for addressing pretty much any conduct dispute that it has authority to address. _signed, Rosguill 20:22, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  There's a fine line between accused having an opportunity/obligation to respond to their accusers and the potential for accusations of WP:BLUDGEONing and the current format makes it hard to tell which is happening. Very much agreed with you @Rosguill. Lizthegrey (talk) 22:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't believe this is something we need to formalize. However, a few times in this saga I've said that it would be a good idea for the closing admins to suggest that future incidents of this type might be better suited for AE. I still stand by that. I suppose this is similar to the Soft version above, but less formal. We can make a recommendation, but we don't need to make the process so rigid by reducing out flexibility to handle new situations at the most appropriate place. The Wordsmith 22:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support, preferring hard This case has pretty conclusively proven that in a controversial topic area it's possible to remove an opponent who has not actually done anything wrong just by showing up to ANI. Needless to say, this is bad. So I support any reform that would fix this situation, including this one. Loki (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

who has not actually done anything wrong - hmm, seems like a questionable summary to say the least. Crossroads 01:47, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, this is a completely inappropriate carveout of one topic area, basically making WP:CBANs impossible for that topic. That is unprecedented and disempowers the community. It is not the place of a few people on AN and a few people unhappy with the recent closes to give/take that away. And the idea that AE is inherently superior to ANI is questionable. The limits there make it hard to document a pattern of misconduct; and without a pattern, it's easy and common for bad behavior to be handwaved away as though it is an isolated incident, or just sour grapes from transphobes or whatever. Crossroads 01:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Crossroads: CBANs are beyond AE's authority and would thus obviously not be covered by this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  That is not at all obvious, and besides, then why propose this? It was two CBAN discussions that sparked this idea in the first place, and is motivating some of the votes. A technicality of "the discussion has to be explicitly for a CBAN from the get-go" would make it much harder for problems to be addressed because it's not common for one editor to have all that evidence personally and know that it is that severe. Crossroads 02:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  CBANS are pretty much exclusively a product of ANI discussions, so if you create a rule which prevents the community from bringing disruption attached to a given topic area to ANI, you effectively are creating a situation where a CBAN can never be applied to a user who has proven disruptive in that area. So, yes, your proposal very much removes CBANS (or similar actions taken as an expression of community will) as an option in any case of disruption that took place in the GENSEX topic area. Indeed, under your proposal, even an LTA or a suspected sock of a previously CBANned editor couldn't be brought to ANI to be dealt with if the disruption touched upon GENSEX editing. I honestly don't wish to be rude, Tamzin, so I hope you will forgive how stridently I am about to word this, but the fact that you didn't recognize this extremely obvious result of the proposal suggests you made it without due consideration for its very broad and numerous impacts. SnowRise 02:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Well, there are two possibilities here. One is that I didn't consider the possible negative outcomes. The other is that you're wrong about those negative outcomes being remotely likely. Unsurprisingly, just as you tend to think your analysis is correct, I tend to think mine is. Perhaps after ~15kB of reiterating your parade of horribles that will come to pass if we so much as discourage these discussions, now would be a good time to step back and let others decide how valid your concerns are. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Tamzin I'm fairly sure I've seen you a lot around AN/ANI so I'm fairly surprised that you're so unfamiliar with how CBANS work. While some CBANs start from the get go as someone reporting some behaviour problem an proposing a CBAN, I'd say most CBANs do not work like that. Instead they start of with someone reporting some misbehaviour. Others than may report more misbehaviour. Sometimes the OP responds extremely poorly as well. Eventually someone decides their behaviour is bad enough and proposes a CBAN. The community discussions/!vote this and we hopefully come to a consensus. Even better if it is an uncontentious consensus although sadly that isn't always the case. The organic nature of CBAN discussions means that saying this proposal excludes CBANs simply makes no sense. How can a proposal exclude CBANs when we have no idea if a CBAN may result until we've discussed? Nil Einne (talk) 02:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne: I'm well aware of how CBANs work. I'm also well aware that there has not been consensus to CBAN someone for edits primarily relating to GENSEX since... Since when? I can't think of a time in recent memory, and I can think of one particular case where a CBAN proposal failed despite strong evidence of systemic discrimination against trans editors. If someone gets TBANned at AE from GENSEX, and continues to disrupt in other realms, then AN/I can still handle it, probably much less dramatically. "User:Example was indef TBANned from GENSEX last month at AE. They have since made comments X, Y, and Z regarding abortion. This user is clearly NOTHERE and further sanctions re in order" has a much better chance at AN/I than "User:Example has been saying A, B, C in this dispute about trans pronouns and D, E, F in this thread on gender dysphoria and also unrelatedly X, Y, Z about abortion". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamzin (talk • contribs) 03:10, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Look, I don't want to get in a cycle of counter-criticisms with you, especially because I can recognize that your proposal is a goodfaith response to seeing one too many trainwrecks in this area that could have driven away a valuable contributor (thankfully, from the above, it seems we have avoided that outcome with TheTranarchist). However, I will say that the vast majority of the "15kb" you reference is a necessary response to your hand-waving away observations about some pretty major consequences of your proposed course of action--which I would not describe as a "parade of horribles" but rather a series of results that would be direct consequences of that policy were it implemented, and which (far from being hypothetical or hyperbole), would be automatic and inevitable outcomes.

As Nil Einne, Crossroads and myself have already explained, almost all CBANs result from discussions where they were not suggested at the outset, and your personal recollections and feelings about their necessity not withstanding, there's no good reason to believe the community might not need to CBAN someone in this area from time to time, and no argument for stripping that option from the community's potential responses to disruption. Considering we just had two such CBANS of the sort that you describe as uncommon in one day, and considering there have been numerous other GENSEX TBANS implemented at ANI over the years, clearly the need for such tools is not as super rare as you suggest. And frankly, anti-trans sentiment is a reason why we should be concerned to preserve this option, not toss it away, because it's equally (if not more) likely that the next person we need to indefinitely remove from GENSEX editing will be a problem user aligned against trans rights.

And even as regards that rare exception where a CBAN proposal is a part of the initial complaint, that actually highlights another can-of-worms knock-on effect that would result from the framework you are advancing here. Because as soon as people adjust to this new dynamic, here's exactly what is going to happen: every single time that an editor with an ounce of WP:BATTLEGROUND in them at the moment wants to bring what they perceive to be disruption in the GENSEX area to ANI, they are simply going to include a request for a CBAN in their filing, because that will become the most obvious way for them to get past the arbitrary "must be an issue that AE cannot address" threshold that is a part of your model. And I fail to see how forcing every complaint filed at ANI over GENSEX disruption to start out with the posture of a proposed CBAN is going to make the resulting discussions less inflamed. SnowRise 07:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Just spitballing. What about a system in which CT issues are still reported at ANI, but they can be forwarded to AE if it's determined that there was disruptive behavior? This would theoretically retain the benefits of the discussion format, but it would end the discussion before the thousands of words dedicated to arguing about whether sanctions are warranted and what sanctions are applicable. Of course, this system would not address the legitimate concerns raised by Crossroads above. I also think that any solution should involve reform that allows for topics to be delisted from CT more easily per Barkeep49. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Puts the cart before the horse. If "it's determined that there was disruptive behavior" then a conclusion has already been reached and an appropriate sanction or warning can issue.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Having watched AE proceedings over the years, I am quite confused on why anyone would see that as an improvement in venue. In fact the ability for a single admin to supervote by design, has been a detriment to the encyclopedia in my opinion. Arkon (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• oppose. this is instruction creep. lettherebedarklight晚安 03:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose in a number of ANI cases involving an DS area, I have suggested that it might be simpler to take things to ARE. Indeed in a number of cases where someone was not formally aware, I've given alerts as a result of an ANI cases and if the problems were minor enough I've suggested perhaps it would be easier to just leave things be for now and take it to ARE if it repeats. I haven't done so since it changed to CT mostly because it's just something I do where I happen to see a case where this might help. In other words, I fully support the idea that often it is better for areas well covered by CT to be simply handled by CT rather than going through normal community discussion.

  However I'd oppose trying to force cases must be treated as CT without very strong evidence that this is the best for the community. And to be clear this includes the soft variant as it also include a degree of force.

  As noted above, there are numerous possible consequences for this e.g. how we handle cban or other sanctions that aren't something CT can impose. Note also that CBANs technically include topic bans even from CT areas. While I am personally not fussed whether an editor is subject to a community topic ban or a CT one, there is always going to be editors who feel a community ones is better since it will require a community consensus to remove. (After all, we even had community site ban of an editor because the community was concerned about an earlier arbcom decision to unban the editor.) There's also how this affect cases that might be better for the community to handle since they are more complicated than the simpler disruption in a certain topic area CT handles best.

  I'd even more oppose it for any specific CT area (instead of all CT areas) without strong evidence there's a reason to treat these as special areas. I'm far from convinced that the two reason cases resulted in this are the worst we've seen at ANI. And concerns over people trying to get rid of opponents covers pretty much all CT areas and frankly anything contentious which isn't CT. E.g. the notability/ARS wars.

  Most importantly though, IMO this is simply a bad idea at this time. To some extent there is an aspect of hard cases make bad law here. But more importantly, emotions are clearly still running high over those two recent cases. I don't think it likely holding this discussion at this time is going to improve that or ensure we make a good decision. Instead we get comments like "who has not actually done anything wrong". Clearly quite a few members of the community do not agree with that for one or both of those editors. This includes many who are not opponents. While a discussion like this is always likely to be contentious and may get controversial comments, the best outcome and least disruption and harm to the community will come if we hold it when editors aren't already affected by two recent controversial cases, cases which resulted in this proposal. Fanning the flames when emotions are still so high is not going to benefit the community.

  To be clear, I'm not suggesting any editor involved in this proposal ill motivations, I have no doubt they're genuinely trying to improve Misplaced Pages and fix a problem that they feel was highlighted by recent cases. However having good motivations doesn't stop an editor making bad decisions and I feel that's clearly the case here. (Actually part of the reason why they have made such a bad decision is precisely why we should not be doing this. Perhaps they weren't able to see what they may have seen when if it wasn't so soon after those two cases namely that it was a terrible idea to discuss this right at this moment.)

  Nil Einne (talk) 03:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per most of the above, especially SnowRise. Not going to repeat it all. I do think that an "ARBGENSEX2" case is ultimately inevitable, but it will be after the community has failed to be able to resolve the problem without having to defer to ArbCom. And that time is not upon us yet. I agree also especially with Crossroads in observing that AE is not a good venue for establishing long-term patterns of disruption, only short-term "outbursts", because of its strict limits.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - While I recognize that Tamzin's suggestion is entirely a good faith effort to deal with a pressing problem, I believe that SnowRise's analysis of the results that would occur if this were put into effect to be more accurate and representative of the general history of AN and AN/I. Community discussion can result in a CBAN, which requires that the community overturn it. It is therefore a more powerful sanction then an admin-imposed AE indef, which -- like every other admn-imposed sanction -- can be overturned at any time by any individual admin (for whatever reason). We should not lose the potential use of CBANS as an option. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken: I'm fairly sure you're wrong about CT sanctions as alluded to by User:Barkeep49 and maybe others above. As documented at Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction, these can't simply be overturned at any time by an individual admin for any reason. That can only happen when it's an indef and was imposed by a single admin and it's been more than a year or the imposing admin is no longer an admin. Otherwise if the imposing admin agrees (including when imposing the sanction) but note this sort of means it's not overturned solely by any admin. Oh and if it's imposed by a single admin, they (but only they) can change or remove it themselves without needing to ask anyone. Maybe more importantly a case which makes it to AE will often result in discussion before sanction is imposed by rough consensus of admins in which case none of this applies and it needs to be appealed either at AE or AN or by arbcom. To be clear, this is only for sanctions imposed under CT. I believe in some cases an admin will just quickly impose a sanction as an ordinary admin action rather than under CT and AE will decide to just leave it at that. (And as noted to some extent even if it is imposed under CT, if by a single admin which I think is another possible outcome of an AE report, this admin could allow it to be treated like a regular sanction and overturned by any admin by saying so when imposing it.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  I may be confused about that, I'm not certain, but it *is* certain that if all GENSEX issues are required to be settled at AE, then a CBAN is out of the question, and I still consider a CBAN to be a more powerful sanction, because it comes from the community at large. It may be more cumbersome to *reach* a consensus to CBAN, but the direct consensus of the community is, to my mind, a stronger action. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• OpposeAs a general principle leave it to us on the ground to thrash things out. The existing structure can take care of those fairly rare times we can't.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - I appreciate Tamzin making an effort to find a way to improve our resolution of disputes and to avoid having difficult mega-threads like these two ANIs we just had. However, I am among those who does not believe that AE is better at resolving disputes than ANI (although I do believe in some cases we should make some ANI threads more formal, like AE, to e.g. reduce bludgeoning). I also don't think AN is the right place to decide structural changes to ANI; that should be at the pump; the Administrator's Noticeboard is not an appropriate place for any RFC in my view. Discussions here will attract attention from administrators, and RFCs might bring in FRS, but that's still not a pool representative of the overall community. Ironically, my procedural objection is rooted in the same principle as my substantive objection: fundamentally, if you reduce the pool of decision-makers from "everyone" to "administrators", you don't end up with a better decision. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Apparently we're testing the theory. Levivich (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  So much for that. Closed promptly with "It is debatable whether ... that would be a matter for AE".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral on the soft proposal, though I think it should be worded to encompass all CT areas, oppose the hard version. I do think AE is a better venue for most CT-related conduct disputes, and I hope our admins feel empowered to strongly suggest that newly filed ANI reports be moved to AE when possible. I would be fine with admins closing such discussions and directing the OPs to AE, though I think all it should take to reopen them is the OP saying "no, I definitely want this to stay at ANI". I oppose the hard proposal as GENSEX doesn't need this treatment over other CT areas, and because I agree with those that are concerned about missing out on some ANI-specific potential remedies. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Note: I've placed a notice of this discussion at WP:VPP and listed it on the WP:CD ticker: these issues and the proposed solution have implications far too broad to be considered by just those of us here. SnowRise 22:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - My lead reasoning will remain that our community members are intended to be able to pick their forum, depending on what they think can work best (I suspect GENSEX regulars are likely aware of the options). I oppose revoking that choice. There are more personal reasons someone might have this reason (e.g. So long as I continue to find complex discussions harder to understand in separated discussion than ANI rambling but more continuous format (while many are fiercely the opposite); or someone preferring to have an area settled by the general editing base than a small subset of admins), that encourage them to prefer one format over another. In terms of proposer's request to find alternate solutions, then I believe they may be best off indicating what the most problematic factors are, then mitigations to those can be advised, which may well more be in execution than mechanics. Time? Length of reading? Both no doubt come with negatives, but the flipside is both indicate significant numbers of editors trying to find a solution and struggling. A shift to AE may well resolve on those two aspects, but at the issue of cutting the people participating, or the views & evidence given. In which case, it's not a solution, but a tradeoff. We deal with tradeoffs all the time, but for any tradeoff, the proposal should be noting the negatives that arise and why we should accept their cost. I do not believe those costs are sufficiently covered here, with either option. Nosebagbear (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• I've been a bit conflicted on this but I think I'm coming down on the side of weakly supporting the soft version of this proposal.—S Marshall T/C 08:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is my firm belief that this proposal would not have been made if it had been any other topic area. Gensex editors should not be treated any differently from other editors that wind up at ANI. Gensex editors are not special and exceptional. Misplaced Pages is not here to coddle any editors, regardless of their editing experience and editor level. Gensex editors must follow the same Misplaced Pages community policies that affect non-gensex editors, and if one of them pushes an envelope too far, he/she/they must face the same action and consequences faced by editors who have engaged in similar behavior in non-gensex articles. ANI is where issues regarding a user's conduct need to be discussed and determined. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 12:02, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. For the same reason I opposed making ANI more like AE, there is a need for a place to report issue that has no bar of entry. No matter how low that bar can be made. Maybe taking discussions to AE is a good idea, and could be suggested once a report has been made, but there shouldn't be any formal direction on the matter. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose hard, neutral on soft - AE is too bureaucratic. Allowing an admin to move a discussion to AE puts the bureaucratic responsibility to the admin, not the (possibly new) user who wants to file a complaint. Animal lover |666| 16:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Neutral to support on hard, support on soft - I know this sounds vague, but in this case, any solution is better than no solution. The way I see it, most GENSEX editors have it significantly harder on virtually every level and WP might not be well equipped to handle all of it with its existing administrative structures. @Tamzin I hope this will not come off as if I am rushing through the nuances of this proposal; rather, I am trying to say that this is one of those cases where, in principle, I'll support attempts to lessen the burden on GENSEX editors, even if those are not "perfect" by WP standards. I'll add that to VP discussion. And I really think some editors in ANI should take WP:WALLOFTEXT to heart. Ppt91 19:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Cases from all other topic areas can be brought here (can't they?). I don't see how it is helpful to make an exception for GENSEX. Editors should not be curtailed from raising important issues so that the most people can see them. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 02:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Does not seem appropriate; cases should be filed where appropriate as appropriate. Stifle (talk) 14:59, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see even from the previous ANI threads that GENSEX topics are unique in a manner that would make AE the only appropriate venue, especially since AE tends to languish in my experience from lack of input. If there's thoughts that ANI itself could be restructured to address issues, that's worth talking about (BilledMammal's suggestions etc.) But I don't actually see how this solves any problem. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

A plea: Propose a better solution

I don't think I have ever felt truly desperate on Misplaced Pages before. I have not come here trying to offer a magic bullet to this problem. I have presented two drafts of solutions to a problem that is making a highly sensitive topic area unsafe to edit in. Most people who edit GENSEX have been neutral to supportive of this proposal. It has largely been the "AN(I) regulars" here saying no, we have to continue to stew in this mess—a kind of mess that, no doubt, AN(I) regulars are used to, else they wouldn't be AN(I) regulars. The people in this topic area do not edit so they can have month-long dramaboard threads. We edit because we see issues in Misplaced Pages's woefully inadequate coverage of gender issues. Inhumane treatment of BLP subjects. Coverage of sociological subjects that is sourced to Tumblr blogs rather than academic papers. Coverage of highly sensitive biomedical subjects that is sourced to Tumblr blogs rather than academic papers. All to push both pro- and anti-trans narratives, sometimes in the same sentence.

So I'm begging y'all, please. As a fellow editor. As someone who has poured her heart into writing two GAs in this topic area. This is a request for comment. I am requesting y'all's comments: Propose a better solution. Propose something that does not drive away editors from a topic area desperately in need of them. I still think my ideas work fine or would only nned slight tweaks—in particular "soft", which may oppose !votes haven't really addressed—but if you disagree, I get it. That's how consensus works. But there is a massive problem here. I don't think anyone familiar with the facts disputes that. If you won't support either these solutions, then something else. Please. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 23:18, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

The same sort of plea could be made about every WP:CTOP subject area. There's nothing magically special about this one. What you have boils down to a complaint about how WP:ANI operates, and we all have complaints about how ANI operates, but there isn't a clear consensus on how to improve it. "Carve my preferred topic out of ANI" isn't a solution, and an RfC predicated on that idea isn't going to be the vehicle by which we arrive at ANI reform.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I edit in quite a few CTOP areas. I am not aware of another one that routinely triggers weekslong battles of this sort at AN/I. But if your response to a request for a better proposal is "I acknowledge a systemic problem, oppose a solution, and have no better solution to offer," all right, noted. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 00:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Instead of engaging in a petty straw-man argument, try reading what I wrote more carefully. To spell it out: This proposal is basically a poisoned well. If you want to propose ANI reform, do it in a clean proposal in an appropriate venue and there may be enough other editors fed up with ANI for the same reasons to support some changes. (Comment length/frequency limitations are a pretty commonly suggested idea, so that's a likely starting point.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

( Peanut gallery comment) I may be overusing this template, but I really want to make clear that I'm a newbie here. I don't mean to be a bother. In my lowly opinion, the first substantive community response to a new editor's behavioral issue should not be a vicious, humiliating, overlong, utterly unsympathetic ANI case. And if you're just going to hand out a TBAN anyway, you might as well make it policy to slap an editing restriction on anyone with more than one warning in the GENSEX topic area. It would eliminate a lot of the pointless bureaucracy.In my lowly opinion, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. (Metric friends may substitute '28 grams' and '0.45 kilogram'. /j) If the WP:Adopt-a-user program were reasonably effective I wager you wouldn't find even half as many chronic, intractable behavioral problems in this area. You can try to whip GENSEX into shape all you like, but do you really think that increasing sanctions will entice new users to come edit the area? (I certainly am not enticed. Thank god I stay on the refdesks.) If the broader community were more proactive and less reactive in responding to flawed editing, things would surely not escalate so rapidly.In any case I don't really have a concrete suggestion. I would greatly like to see increased collegiality between old and new editors with a more developed mentorship program. But anything that gets the community to act before things have escalated to a TBAN is a better solution than what exists presently. Stop punishing people when you veterans haven't even figured out how to solve the underlying problem. In the meantime (I know my comment is unrealistic), I think AE is probably a better place than ANI for things like this. But maybe it would be best to introduce an "AE mode" for use at ANI, so discussions could be more structured yet not as limited in scope and jurisdiction. Just a thought.I don't mean to be impolite with this comment, just impassioned. If I've been incivil, let me know and I'll strike it. Shells-shells (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd be all for a radical restructuring of AN/I—perhaps limiting it into actual incidents and creating a separate Administrators' noticeboard/Recurring issues without threaded discussion—but that seems even less likely to happen than fixing the handling of GENSEX discussions. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 00:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Shells-shells, topic bans are not "punishment", they are protection of the project from recurrent disruption. I don't know what you think AE does, but go observe it for a while, and you'll see that it largely hands out topic bans (and blocks). It is unlikely that either of the GENSEX editors recently sanctioned at ANI would not have been sanctioned at AE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I have read WP:PUNITIVE, yes, which is why I specifically used the word punishing. With the exception of its first sentence—I would rather say bans should not be "punishment"—I completely agree with your comment. Shells-shells (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Shells-shells, topic bans are not "punishment", they are protection of the project from recurrent disruption.

They are both. It's meant to be protective, but it's absolutely a "you did something wrong and now we're taking away your ability to edit here" punishment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I do think there are some issues with that framing: it's really the low hanging fruit/Wikipedia equivalent of a politician's baby kiss to say ANI is ugly and that we wish the process of dispute resolution could be more collegial--and less dispiriting for newcomers in particular. But nobody is excited when a dispute or issue grows to the point that it lands at ANI, let alone when a CBAN has to be issued, and when I check in at ANI, I fairly regularly see people doing their best to make the process (borrowing upon your wording here) as un-vicious, un-humiliating, and sympathetic as they can, in the circumstances. But let's have a dose of realism and pay at least lip service to some important constraints here: sometimes there are values and priorities of our community and methodology (for providing reliable, neutral, factually-accurate material to serve the needs of our readers) that have to take precedence over encouraging the editing of every contributor, in every area, all the time.

That important caveat said, my overall thoughts are that you've identified a fruitful area here--indeed, maybe one of the few areas that actual stands a chance of improving the situation in question, as it stands. I think you are very much correct that more effort at the front-end, when onboarding volunteers, could pay immense dividends in the long run, in terms of decreased disruption, acrimony, and need to re-set editorial conduct when problematic patterns have already been formed. As you say, mentorship in one form or another is surely an under-exploited potential tool. I think there's a cognitive bias at work here that is not at all uncommon to institutions of governance: we are fixated with and dissuaded by the upfront costs, failing to rationally apply a longterm analysis.

On the other hand, I am not surprised that "adopt-a-user" has failed to catch on: what a patronizing choice of title for such a program. I imagine it has an especially discouraging impact on precisely the type of editors we are talking about here and would most like to reach with such a scheme: those who come here specifically to edit in CTOP areas: some of those editors would be just simply battleground and avoidant of the idea of the need for guidance by nature and others, as a consequence of what their communities have historically had to deal with, are justifiably sensitive to implied condescension. Anyway, that last point is a nitpick observation. I agree the mentorship angle is something this community needs to invest in. Not just to ameliorate the issues being contemplated here today, but for purposes of editor retention and community unity/harmonized outlook.SnowRise 01:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I may simply be naïve, but I don't think ANI is really as bad as people say. It seems to work pretty well as an ad hoc tribunal, or as a grand jury. But once in a while it gets acrimonious, and the last people who should be subjected to an acrimonious ANI thread are new users. In fact I think there's far too much bureaucracy facing new users anyway (even excepting ANI), but that criticism is also low hanging fruit. There ought to be better options, with lower stakes, in the first place.I agree completely with your second and third paragraphs. It would be wonderful for a mentorship culture to develop here, and 'Adopt-a-user' may well need a rebranding. Shells-shells (talk) 03:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Throwing this out there: ArbCom. We pay them to deal with problems that are, well, really bad. We haven't actually tried this yet; WP:GENSEX is not a "real" case. HouseBlaster 00:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I've said before that I think a GENSEX2 case is ultimately inevitable, but why do you think an ArbCom proceeding would be preferable? It would ultimately take several months, dig even deeper into various individuals' editing habits, and probably result in more sanctions, on more editors, that are harder to appeal. Few things drive editors away from a topic area better and faster than WP:RFARB attention.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know that I would agree that such a case would be per se a bad thing: if it gets to the point that ArbCom forms a case, presumably it will be a situation where there are at least potentially bad actors needing scrutiny--which would not be a happy occasion but would surely be better than their hiding their heads in the sand. That said, it would all come down to the particulars whether it would be a positive development in the aggregate.

Those caveats made, I agree with your central point: I don't see how such a case would really remedy the systemic issues being contemplated here. For all its overriding authority, ArbComs remedies in a situation like this are rather limited. They can make a subject CTOP (and this one already is), they can sanction individual editors, sometimes they publically hold harmless someone who got pulled into a dispute through no disruptive fault of their own, and they can take steps to protect individuals from harassment. All vital work, such as it goes, but making substantial changes to our community structures and processes, at least in this context, is largely outside of their remit. To the extent we want to reform ANI or any of our other community processes, it's just not something we can pass to their shoulders. The buck stops here. SnowRise 01:19, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

It depends what the issue is? If the issue is certain editors who cannot behave in the topic area, but the issue becomes too obfuscated in ANI discussions for the community at large to get involved, then ArbCom would be a good venue to deal with it. DS I don't think dealt with these problems too well either, and ArbCom directly does I think. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry T. I do feel bad about opposing one of your remedies without proposing an alternative. The thing I keep hoping for in GENSEX is a group of three to five admins that hang around. It's the main difference I see between GENSEX and American Politics or Pseudoscience. The early intervention of an admin warning is little seen in GENSEX. I'm looking for things like "If you continue to bludgeon discussions/to misgender the article subject/to rely on evidently unreliable sources/to skirt the bounds of civility, I will block you." They'll have been witness to the patterns of editing that might eventually prove to have been problematic. The only other suggestion I have is stricter enforcement and clerking at AE. If we're counting on that as the good option, let's tune it up. Though I do think there are deep problems in GENSEX, I don't share the view that it's at the top of the CT/general sanctions problem pile. Within the past year, we've had knock-down-drag-outs tied to Armenia-Azerbaijan, Russia-Ukraine, AmPol, and Palestine-Israel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

If there were no sanctions imposed, would you be making your proposal or this plea? Arkon (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Two out of three sanctions proposals went "my way", including one that I literally proposed, and the third one I only weakly opposed, so... -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 01:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't feel like an answer. There was literally nothing different in these reports than the thousands of reports before it, other than the accused throwing out so many bytes of text without reprimand. If your concern is separate from the results, you may want to wait and propose in isolation. I think divorcing your concern from the results may be helpful to your cause. Arkon (talk) 01:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I have not framed this thread as an objection to the outcome of the TT thread. I've framed it as what it is: about that thread, and several others, being "shitshow"s. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:00, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Tamzin here is clearly frustrated with the manner in which WP:ANI operates generally in these sorts of cases, and I don't think that this is purely some reaction to being dissatisfied with a single closing statement. She is being extremely candid in this thread, and, while I disagree with her proposal above, I do share her sentiment that there are certain topics and situations where ANI is not capable of handling disputes without consuming an inordinate amount of community time in exchange for at most marginal benefit to the community. She's being sincere here regarding her motives, and I don't think it drives the conversation forward to insinuate otherwise. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:13, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

For three months, trial structured discussion at ANI:

1. ANI reports are to be titled using the format "Editor name(s), topic area(s), type(s) of disruption". For example "BilledMammal, Platypus, Disruptive cite-tagging"
2. Editors wishing to make a statement on the report should create a fourth level section (====) titled using the format "Statement by editor name". There is no word or diff limit, but editors are advised that the longer it is the less likely it is to be read.
3. Editors may edit their statement as required; normal requirements to ensure that replies are not deprived of context are waived, and editors making replies are advised to quote any relevant sections.
4. Editors may reply to no more than five statements; there are no limits to the number of replies they may make to those statements. Editors may additionally reply to any statement that discusses their behavior. Replies should not introduce new information, and should instead seek to clarify or discuss the information raised in the editors statement.
5. Statements should remain closely related to the initial topic raised. If additional behavioral issues need to be raised, including behavioral issues related to the editor who opened the discussion, editors should create a third level section (===) using the same format of "Editor name(s), topic area(s), type(s) of disruption".
6. To propose community sanctions, editors should create a fourth level section (====) titled "Proposed sanctions on Editor name(s)".
7. Editors !voting on community sanctions proposals should keep their !vote concise and reference their statement for more detailed arguments and evidence. Editors may not reply to other editors community sanction !votes.

The intent of this suggestion is to keep discussions on topic, to prevent bludgeoning and impenetrable walls of text, and to try to introduce a level of neutrality into the opening of the discussions. It also attempts to keep things less structured and limited than AE, as I don't believe that level of structure is appropriate here.

Issues I see are that the structure will be excessive for some discussions (for example, WP:ANI#IP range from Poland, trouble with one article - although I do believe the proposed title format of "Polish IP range, Weedkiller (album), edit warring" would be more informative than the existing title), that it will make boomerangs more difficult, and that the structure will be difficult for editors to enforce. However, if editors are interested in attempting to apply structure to ANI, I hope that making a proposal - even an awful one - will at least spark a discussion on what that structure could look like. BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Bill, I know it's a big ask, but I think a rudimentary mock-up in a sandbox might be helpful here: perhaps it's just me, but I am having a bit of difficulty visualizing the overarching format of how these pieces fit together. SnowRise 03:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: See here; I hope it manages to make it more clear. BilledMammal (talk) 03:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Definitely helps. Was close to what I had in mind when I originally !voted "Let ArbCom (or delegate) sort it out in a more structured way" because of the mess of accusations and counter-accusations threaded together. Lizthegrey (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Reading sectioned discussion is always a massive pain to try and understand any lengthy discussion - I've never seen a good explanation of how to easily read replies and replies to replies in a smooth fashion in such a discussion, as well as seeing how the discussion tone in general changes as it runs. So on that basis alone, I'd be against any such trial - but especially as a general ANI structure. I believe points 1, 4, 6 do have serious potential value to them, and point 5 could be used in certain circumstances/categories of discussion, although I'd like to see a clarification on how it worked with threads that raised multiple behavioural issues initially. Would each need its own section? Nosebagbear (talk) 16:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

First Law of Misplaced Pages Reform: Calls to reform a page, made on the page to be reformed, will result in no reforms. Levivich (talk) 06:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea_lab)#Allow administrators to enforce structured discussions in CT/GS to workshop a possible proposal. I feel that keeping it separate from this discussion may help keep it focused. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Closure Request: V22 RFC

The RFC at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 is overdue for a close. A request made at WP:RFCLOSE#Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 has been sitting for several weeks now, and it would be helpful if some brave soul(s) would attempt the close. Experienced closers are recommended, as with ~3000 edits it is one of the largest RfCs ever conducted on enwiki (second place by my count behind WP:BLPRFC1). Given the complexity and importance, it has been suggested that a panel of admins volunteer to close it collectively.

Regards, The Wordsmith 01:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Might be best for someone to hat the discussion while a closer or closers are found - I took a look at the page history and it looks like another ~15 comments were added yesterday which continues to make the job even more laborious. 104.247.245.249 (talk) 11:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

User:JRRobinson - problematic editor on darts articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is a follow-up to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1121#Problematic editor, darts articles, which was archived without any action being taken. After speaking with Star Mississippi and Jayron32, I've decided to bring it back again, since they are continuing their behavior of using only primary sources, despite it being explained that this is not enough numerous times. Just today, they created 2023 Dutch Darts Championship, again solely using primary sources. They also reverted redirects of 2023 DPA Tour series, 2023 PDC Nordic & Baltic ProTour series, and 2023 DPNZ Tour series. While no more personal attacks have occurred, they still have yet to admit that they did anything wrong with their prior personal attacks. Onel5969 01:43, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban from darts as I don't think article creation would address the broader issue. While I think sourcing could eventually be proven to exist for the 2023 articles, there is no valid reason to contest a redirect until such time as sourcing exists and the article merits spinning out. Editor refuses to take the advice on board because he believes he knows better than non darts editors. And yes as @Onel5969 referenced, I'm on board with the revival of this discussion as something needs to change here. Star Mississippi 02:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from darts. Premature article creation is one thing, but exhibition of battleground behavior for years is a different matter entirely. MarioJump83 (talk) 10:42, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban from darts, primarily to address the ongoing WP:IDHT behavior.--⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from darts This editor seems to think that darts is exempt from WP:NSPORTS and our core content policies. That needs to change. Cullen328 (talk) 18:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support topic ban How does someone clock up 43k edits since 2006 but be IDHT on really basic policy? DeCausa (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Maxim Davydov

Hi, I recently closed an AfD as "delete" for this person. However, I then got a message on my talk page claiming that the article had been hijacked and that an earlier article on a different person, but with the same name, had been overwritten. I checked and this seems to be correct. However, the original article is a badly sourced BLP. I'm a bit at a loss on how to handle this, any advice would be welcome. Thanks! --Randykitty (talk) 13:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The article, before being overwritten, has one source and is not negative in tone so is isn't a BLP violation A silver medal in orienteering at the World Games is a credible assertion of importance so speedy deletion would not be appropriate. Restoring the article to the version prior to the overwrite would respect the AFD decision that Maxim Davydov the MMA fighter is not notable, and allow for editors to work on the topic of Maxim Davydov the orienteer. That person may or may not be notable and the regular editing processes and policies for Misplaced Pages can be applied. -- Whpq (talk) 13:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Will do, that's what I was thinking, too, but given how unusual the situation is, I wanted to have another opinion. Thanks a bunch!! --Randykitty (talk) 15:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

User talk:DougsTech

User talk:DougsTech · ( logs | history | links | watch ) ·

DougsTech (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Firstly, I apologise for potentially causing even more drama. Anyway, DougsTech was indef blocked a long time ago, and their talk page was deleted, then undeleted, then deleted per WP:U2 incorrectly (the user still exists) then deleted again per WP:G6 when it was re-created. Per the policy WP:UP#DELTALK, user talk pages are not normally deleted. All but one of the admins involved have been desysopped, so they can't help me. While people shouldn't really care about this, the user has recently been brought up in a discussion, and I think non-admins should at least have the opportunity to follow the links given to understand what point was trying to be made. —Ritchie333 13:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

• Maybe I'm missing something really, really obvious, but this seems so straightforward that I've undeleted it for now. Feel free to delete later with my blessing if I'm being obtuse. Courcelles (talk) 13:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
• Original delete was an incorrect U1 (I checked, and it did say "not user talk pages" at the time). The second deletion was an incorrect U2, which is only for non-existent user accounts. And the third deletion was an incorrect G6 cleanup. Three admins, three apparent mistakes, but all seems well now. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

• It took five admins to arrive at the correct conclusion of letting the talkpage exist? I guess there are too many administrators currently. On a more serious note, the restoration seems like the right call (if a little belated) and I doubt anyone will object. The Wordsmith 17:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Adminbot discussion

Per the WT:DYK discussion, I have requested admin rights for DYKToolsBot. Please see Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/DYKToolsAdminBot. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I made an INVOLVED NLT block.

I blocked BiggerBrat for NLT based on this edit. I recently removed a pile of synth/OR/blpvio from the article, so I'm somewhat involved. I throw myself upon your mercy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It's too bad, you had such a promising admin career ahead of you. Anyway, I did a WP:DOLT check of the BLP article and Camp Bucca and as far as I can tell, the claims in those two articles about Bucca in 2003-2004 are verified by the sources cited, so I don't see any WP:BLP problems. Levivich (talk) 02:41, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

No rabbits for you, must eat only lettuce. Kidding aside, good block. They're welcome to retract the threat and edit productively if they wish, but that wasn't productive. Star Mississippi 02:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

UPE with no intention of improving encyclopedia. Good riddance Slywriter (talk) 02:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

They did have a point regarding the Stacy Garrity article, which had serious pov/synth issues, but their approach was totally off base and not conducive to getting it fixed. Thankfully ScottishFinnishRadish has done a thorough job cleaning it up. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Unless I've missed something, they didn't raise any complaints about the article until many hours after the cleanup was already done. Levivich (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

(EC) Well it seems fairly unlikely SFR was randomly cleaning up an article then an editor came to make a legal threat about the inclusion of content which had been around for a while but which SFR had just removed. I assume they saw this earlier comment from BiggerBrat at BLPN or something else which came before the cleanup like this edit filter report . It is correct however that BiggerBrat is continuing to complain about content that has already been removed. Nil Einne (talk) 03:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I missed that that the BLPN didn't name the subject so it's unlikely SFR figured out what article BiggerBrat was referring to just from that. But the false positive report obviously did as this the attempted edit that resulted in it . I also didn't look and see if there were complaints elsewhere perhaps as anons, and of course another editor having seen something may have mentioned it or maybe even there was VRT etc contact or offsite comments. Alternatively the subject might have been in the news recently for unrelated reasons. SFR could explain more themselves if they wanted to, but as said, it just seems unlikely it was a complete coincidence SFR fixed a problem which had been around for a while and then later someone came to complain about the content from before the fix. (The only way this is likely is if BiggerBrat was monitoring the page but somehow only noticed the removal rather than when the content was added and got confused.) In any event, it seems clear they were complaining about the Bucca stuff which was removed so they had a point, even if raising it in an unacceptable way and continuing to complain after it was removed. Nil Einne (talk) 04:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It was actually here that I learned about the article, and figured I'd take a look. There was a legitimate issue, so I cleaned it up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

• Good block. Endorsed. BD2412 T 03:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a good block to me. SQL 03:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

• Just gave a quick look. IMO your "somewhat involved" is not "involved" and kudos for submitting for review. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse Block seems rather cut-and-dry, Clear NLT violation. --Jayron32 13:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
• Good block I respect your coming here to make sure, but no worries this was to the letter a good block. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
• Endorse block Seems a pretty obvious legal threat, the (reverted) comment on WP:BLPN refers to apparent legal action already taken against the Wikimedia Foundation. However, like Nil Einne, I do wonder if their complaint was effectively resolved by the extensive cleanup work done earlier in the day, so it might be worth me having a chat to get some more detail. Ritchie333 15:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
• Good block and not involved Good block, and I don't think you were involved. Simply editing an article doesn't automatically make you involved with an editor, and double true when the editor in question is a drive by single edit editor. You were not involved in any editing dispute, had no interaction with that editor and were not in an edit war. All's good. Canterbury Tail talk 16:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm just going to throw into the mix that the article was created by MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk · contribs), who was later blocked by Drmies with the rationale "CU block". Does that mean the article was created by a sock? A significant amount of content was later added by an IP - possibly evading a block? In which case does the article potentially qualify as WP:G5? Ritchie333 17:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Given that Garrity is a statewide elected official in Pennsylvania, and ScottishFinnishRadish has cleaned up the article (thanks), I think that we should leave well enough alone at this point. Cullen328 (talk) 17:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking more that some "bad actor" element might be an explanation why the article might have been problematic, invited legal action, and has now had some serious cleanup. Ritchie333 18:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't remember the particulars of that, but I do remember that two, three years ago those right-wing socks (of NoCal, HiddenTempo, and many others) were a dime a dozen, but since I noted nothing in the block log it may have been IP socking. I agree that we should just leave it be, like Cullen said, though one does wonder about the edit history of this particular account. Drmies (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Help needed with large backlog of cases at CopyPatrol

Hello everybody. There's quite a few cases listed right now at CopyPatrol, and they seem to be coming in at a higher rate than in the past. There were more than 150 new cases posted today! You don't have to be an admin to do this task. Please stop by my talk page if you have any questions. Thanks for any assistance; much appreciated. — Diannaa (talk) 00:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

• Link to copyPatrol
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RfC on providing an external link to the Sanctioned Suicide forum

Should Sanctioned Suicide include an external link to the Sanctioned Suicide forum, as it currently does in the infobox? Comments welcome at Talk:Sanctioned Suicide#RfC on linking to the forum. Johnuniq (talk) 07:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

What's the relevance to administrators of this RfC 🤔? Endwise (talk) 09:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Please revoke my IP Block Exemption

I possess the IPBE user-right, but do not have a need for it (and haven't since my IP's gblock expired in September). Please remove the user-right from my account. – dudhhr _contribs (he/they) 15:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

•  Done—  Salvio 15:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you. – dudhhr _contribs (he/they) 15:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Unsalting

I'm looking to get Rahart Adams unsalted. The salting admin is not currently active. The subject was salted over seven years ago. Notability has changed since then. I have started an article at Rahart Adams (actor) and would like it moved to the primary topic. Can someone here do it or point me to the right place to get it done. Thanks. duffbeerforme (talk) 12:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

The previous, now deleted, revisions, never had any content, but were just sparse template fields. Since notability has never been asserted in the first place (the deletion log doesn't show A7 or G11), I don't see a problem with moving it to the basic title, so I've done that. Ritchie333 13:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you sir. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

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