Misplaced Pages

I looked. Please read the article again, as all of your quotes are cited.--Sean|Black 22:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Sean has gone to the trouble to check the claims of lack of sourcing. I think it is s serious issue that the anonymous critic apparently does not even bother to read the text carefully enough to see that the claims of lack of citation are--to be blunt--bogus.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cberlet (talk • contribs) 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Chip. I invite anyone else to review the article, and the disputed quotes above, to ensure that it's accurate and sourced.--Sean|Black 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to sign. A bit tired.--Cberlet 04:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No problem. Happens to the best of us :)!--Sean|Black 04:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I am mystified that you would insist that they are cited. For example:

• His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset."

Who are these "critics"? They are not named. What is the source for the quote "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," ? No publication is mentioned.

In each case where "critics" are mentioned in my list the critics are unindentified. Perhaps you don't understand what I am asking. If highly inflammatory accusations are being made, the reader should know who is making them. I am asking that the authors of the article identify the "critics."

This is the correct thing to do under Misplaced Pages policy. An example of an undesirable Weasel Term at at Misplaced Pages:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." --80.74.131.252 16:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Arguing with a conpiracy theorist is like trying to toilet train a badger. It annoys the badger, and you get covered in crap.--Cberlet 17:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There's no need to insult this person. He or she seems to make a reasonable request. If you follow the link to "avoid weasel terms" you will read the following:

A weasel term (or weasel words) is a phrase that hides bias in a statement by attributing an opinion to anonymous sources. Weasel terms give a statement the force of authority without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without a weasel term, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.

This seems to fit the aforemention list of statements like a glove. Therefore the POV notice should stay until those statements are removed, or the critics are identified. --NathanDW 04:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As I already said, they are. Read the whole article, and don't pick one sentence from a well sourced paragraph to support your viewpoint.--Sean|Black 22:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Sean, I did in fact read read your posts, along with all the others, before adding one of my own. If you know the identities of the critics in the examples cited, please add them to the article and that will go a long way toward solving the neutrality problem. I realize that the names of critics such as Berlet, King and Lyons are mentioned in connection with other opinions or quotes, but the opinions mentioned on the list above are anonymous. I also think that it is inappropriate for you to decide all on your own that the dispute over neutrality has been resolved, so I would like to ask you to refrain from deleting the notice until matters are settled. --NathanDW 18:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I see that Cberlet has provided an attribution for one of the anonymous opinions. That is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I have looked at a variety of dispute notices and I am posting "neutrality disputed" on this article, because the remaining anonymous quotes suggest bias under the guideline of "avoid weasel terms." Snowspinner, if you believe that this is the wrong notice, I would appreciate it if you would suggest an alternative, rather than deleting it with a flippant comment. --NathanDW 18:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Cberlet and Snowspinner have had plenty of time to provide citations for the anonymous opinions. Cberlet did provide a citation for one of them. If they do not want to provide citations for the other opinions, they should be removed. There is plenty of well-sourced criticism of LaRouche available, and I will substitute properly sourced criticism if the citations cannot be found for the unsourced criticism. --NathanDW 02:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. Cberlet and others have had another call upon their time recently due to an ArbCom case. If you have properly sourced criticisms that are noteworthy then go ahead and add them. The removal of whatever unsourced criticisms remain can be handled as a separate issue. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sean Black, I am being patient, but I am not abandoning my request for neutrality, so please do not remove the announcement again until this has been worked out. --NathanDW 16:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I read the articles on Misplaced Pages policy carefully before I attempted to make any edits. Does anyone else do this? Yesterday editor SlimVirgin deleted the neutrality disputed announcement from "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," without participating in the discussion on the talk page. If that editor had read the talk page, it would have been clear that there were serious reasons for the neutrality dispute. Then SlimVirgin simply deleted criticism from the "Chip Berlet" article, also without participating in the talk page. This seems like it could be considered biased editing.

Willmcw told me that I should put material about the John Train Salon in this article, so I will. --NathanDW 06:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Note to BirdsOfFire: In several instances on various LaRouche-related pages you have called for cites and facts when they already exist, in some cases on the same page, just lower in the article. It is appropriate to demand cites. It is not appropriate to demand cites when they already exist.--Cberlet 18:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

LaRouche's Conspiracy

More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into Egypt and Sumeria (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the British Empiricists are supposedly an extension of the Venetian Dynasties (which ultimately links them to the Roman Empire).

He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize).

There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: Continental Rationalism) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not sure if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from remote viewing and other forms of ESP and intuition that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma.

Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on Gnosticism being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as inherantly incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on Platonism in which our substantial universe is at odds with The Form of Good). I agree that inherantly and ideally the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be Panentheism). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity).

Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (Children of Satan) alongside another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it). IdeArchos 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, but the purpose of this page is not to discuss LaRouche's ideas in the abstract. Rather, it is to discuss this article about his ideas. If there is any specific detail of the article you'd like to discuss, please do so. There are a number of forums elsewhere to discuss LaRouche and his ideas. Thanks, -Will Beback 05:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/13197.html is an intersting forum on various aspects of LaRouche's movement. -Will Beback 07:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

That was rather considerate of you, thanks very much, looks like a good place.

IdeArchos 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Queen involved in drug trade

I have carefully read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and I ask other editors to do the same. It says that statements which are not properly verified may be removed by any editor, especially if the article is about a living person. This article is one of several that make the claim that LaRouche says the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade. The only acceptable verification for this claim is a quote from LaRouche. Cberlet has attempted to use articles that he himself wrote as a source for this claim, but those articles also do not offer any documentation. If you say that LaRouche said it, you must demonstrate that LaRouche said it.

LaRouche has said many controversial things. I began reading Misplaced Pages some months ago because I was puzzled by things I read in his pamphlets. However, I am now more puzzled, because the Misplaced Pages articles seem to focus more on things that Chip Berlet claims that he said, but for which no evidence is presented. Isn't LaRouche controversial enough without embellishment by his critics? --NathanDW 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a published cite:

"Most of the 22 active and retired government and military officials interviewed said that they have been wary of speaking with the LaRouche associates.

"It may seem far-fetched that a group that says that Walter F. Mondale is a Soviet secret police "agent of influence" and that the queen of England is involved in international dope-dealing could be "useful" to top federal government officials.

"But a number of government officials say much of the group's intelligence is accurate. The LaRouche outfit has had more than 100 intelligence operatives working for it at times, and copies the government in its information-gathering operation, ex-members and other knowledgeable sources said."

John Mintz, 1985, "Some Officials Find Intelligence Network 'Useful'," Washington Post, January 15, online at: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/larouche/larou1.htm

--Cberlet 18:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

John Mintz saying that they believe it is no different than you saying they believe it. If a viewpoint is being attributed to LaRouche and/or his supporters, there must be a quote from LaRouche and/or his supporters. If no such quote exists -- and there are libraries of quotes from LaRouche, you have one yourself -- then we are simply looking at some critics maliciously circulating or repeating a false rumor. --NathanDW 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Does not matter. Mintz is a legitimate reporter at a mainstream daily newspaper. The charge appears in print. LaRouche is a convicted felon and crackpot with a long history of lying. Compare the sources. The claim meets Wiki source requirements. --Cberlet 03:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hertzberg and LaRouche

I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with." While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Misplaced Pages, so be gentle. BrevisLux 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Now I Remember

Actually, I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's Venitian/Roman/Egyptian claims, since according to him, this is where the whole British oligarchy emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that pagan materialism and Gnostic Manicheism hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality).

Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British.

 Again thanks

IdeArchos 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Original Research revisited

Hello. I came here as a reader who was looking for critical analysis on LaRouche and his beliefs. I'm in no way a LaRouche supporter. I'm simply looking for information. What I've found here at this article is troubling. The fact that so many of the external links go to the website of Chip Berlet is quite distrubing. What's more disturbing is that many of the links to his site aren't included as a citation of what the views of LaRouche's critics are, but rather as a verification of what LaRouche's own views allegedly are. (Those sort citations should be made directly to LaRouche's own work or at least to a reputable news source that at least attempts to present issues with a neutral tone.) And the fact that Mr. Berlet has been quoted in some mainstream media articles does not mean that anything that he or his organization publishes becomes a reputable news and information source. What's even more disturbing is the fact that Mr. Berlet himself has been extensively editing this article. This allows him to use Misplaced Pages - with its large reader-base and its appearance of neutrality - as a mouth piece and soapbox to influence a much larger audience than his no-so-well-known website would be able to without Misplaced Pages. What's perhaps most disturbing is that - judging form the discussions on this and other talk pages - these issues have been raised repeatidly for quite some time now but little seems to have changed. Mr. Berlet apparently has the support of Slim Virgin and some other infulential people at Misplaced Pages, so he's been allowed to continue the practice of doing orginial research, publishing it on his own blog, and then including it here at Misplaced Pages. This situation needs to be honestly and openly addressed by the broader Misplaced Pages community - with people weighing in who don't have much in the way of prior association with either camp.

As for this article, I think it needs to be pretty much re-written. The resulting article will likely be a whole lot shorter if it is limited to more mainstream soruces. Neither Berlet and his allies' publications, nor LaRouche's are reputable news and information soruces, so citations to either should be kept at a minimum and limited to a verification of the *opinions* of both LaRouche and his critics. Facts should all be cited to mainstream media sources. Given that LaRouche is most often ignored by the mainstream media, there will probably be less extensive coverage, but that's ok. Misplaced Pages's coverage of individuals and their views should be proportionate to their relative notability. And while LaRouche certainly has some noteriety as an excentric fringe personality, he ranks pretty low on the notability scale compared to many, many others in American politics - most of whom have much less extensive coverage on Misplaced Pages. The best way to maintain Misplaced Pages's credibility, and to prevent these articles from being uesed as soapboxes by LaRouche's supporters *or* his opponents, is to limit their scope to what can be reasonably included under an honest interpretation of both the letter and the spirit of Misplaced Pages's "No Original Research" policy. AnonIPuser 20:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

PS - I look forward to responses from people who can honestly claim some real detachment on these issues. AnonIPuser 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I came to Misplaced Pages because I have been exposed to LaRouche's ideas and I find them obscure and overly full of difficult historical analogies -- but what I found here is just what you describe. Not helpful explanation about LaRouche, but all kinds of theories from Chip Berlet that seem to have very little to do with LaRouche's actual ideas. It seems like Berlet is reluctant to attack LaRouche for LaRouche's actual ideas, so he pretends that LaRouche is some sort of right-wing populist and attacks him for that. This is not very convincing to me, and it also casts doubt on the reliability of Misplaced Pages as a source of objective info. --NathanDW 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, all of the LaRouche articles are like this one. --NathanDW 20:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The book I cowrote with Matthew N. Lyons on Right-Wing Populism in America was published by a major publisher: Guilford Press. That the publisher allowed the section on LaRouche to be published on the website of Political Research Associates hardly means that it only appeared on a "blog." The same is true with the report co-authored with Joel Bellman, a respected journalist, Lyndon LaRouche: Fascism Wrapped in an American Flag. This report was published in print form by Political Research Associates. Many of the cites on this and related pages track back to the PRA website because for months supporters of LaRouche claimed I was misrepresenting LaRouche's own views, and I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website. I find it unfortunate that I am repeatedly subjected to vicious derogatory comments about my professional work outside of Misplaced Pages, and face the constant attempt to conflate my Misplaced Pages editing with nasty and demeaning claims that question my inegrity as a journalist and scholar. These claims may be coated in sugary pseudo-polite language, but they are false and reprehensible personal attacks nontheless. Major scholarly publishers, mainstream newspapers (including the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, and Des Moines Register), and several print encyclopedias find my work to be professional and informative. Ask me to defend my claims and provide cites, but please stop the nasty personal attacks.--Cberlet 20:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The only person I see making a nasty personal attack right now is you, Mr. Berlet. I have said nothing about you as an individual, rather I have criticized your editing practices here. "I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website." Nobody "forced" you to do that. But when you did that, you were carrying out original research. And that's fine for your own website, but not for Misplaced Pages. If one of the "mainstream newspapers (including the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, and Des Moines Register)" had reported specifically about you scanning those documents and verifying the alleged quotes, then that could be included and cited. Also, the fact that an article was "published in print form by Political Research Associates" doesn't really mean a whole lot. All it means is that your organization paid to have your words applied in toner on some paper. That doesn't mean that your essay became a mainstream information source. One more point for now - One thing that I'm really curious about is if your research is really so notable, howcome it doesn't naturally find its way into Misplaced Pages on its own? Most notable writers and theorists don't spend considerable ammounts of their time editing Misplaced Pages - for the simple reason that anyone who's very notable will have an audience for their statements and ideas without having to post it themselves on Misplaced Pages. As such, they find it much more efficient to spend their time writing and speaking - knowing that they can rely on the mainstream media and others to publicize their ideas for them. AnonIPuser 22:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: please stop the nasty personal attacks.--Cberlet 01:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

This article should present LaRouche's ideals only. Critics can be placed in Critics of at the end in links. It should not be used by Cberlet or anyone, left or right to debate his views. FACTS, that is all that is important here for his political views. God knows, this man, is constantly being attacked here based on Berlet and Company's analysis alone; without outside (of PRA) analysis of Berlet and his motivations counterbalancing this. For example, the biography on LaRouche should not be a smear campaign against the man. This is an encyclopedia, not a political website. Every statement by him or about him does not beed explanation to the contrary. Critics of his biography, or especially here can be placed in the cites or links section or in a brief section at the bottom. Let's make this an honorable site and not an attack site on people and their beliefs. --Northmeister 21:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let's back up here. If AnonIPuser, Northmeister, NathanDW, and/or anyone else could tell us what specific problems you have with the article, and how you think they can be fixed, that would be very helpful.--Sean Black 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

We've been through this before with LaRouche supporters and I daresay we'll go through it again. AnonIPuser, of course the research organization Cberlet works for pays to have his articles published, just as the New York Times pays to have its reporters articles published. The important point is that he is a known researcher who has been published by a number of research and news organizations, including the one he currently works for, which makes him a reputable source for Misplaced Pages; and in addition, he is known as an expert on Lyndon LaRouche. He has not engaged in original research that I have ever seen, and your post above shows you haven't understood our NOR policy. So please, if you have particular sentences within this article you would like to question, post them here, but if you continue to attack individual contributors, you'll be ignored (by me, anyway), and possibly blocked. SlimVirgin 01:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin and Cberlet always respond to any criticism of their methods by accusing you of being a LaRouche supporter. It's like Bush accusing all his critics of being pro terrorist. --NathanDW 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Your http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/NathanDW contributions have nothing to do with why we might think that, of course. SlimVirgin 02:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please take a look at my contributions. The only things I have ever ADDED to Misplaced Pages are some material on Daniel O. Graham, because I know something about him, and this criticism to the Chip Berlet article: "Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation."www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm"

Otherwise, I have simply responded to things I saw in the Lyndon LaRouche articles that violate Misplaced Pages Policy (which I have read.) This includes:

• Opinions attributed to anonymous sources, or Weasel Terms (see Avoid Weasel Terms)
• Quotes taken out of context or "spun"
• Improper citations (such as in Jeremiah Duggan, where Cberlet put inaccurate "summaries" cited to sources which said something completely different)

This does not make me a "LaRouche supporter." If makes me an opponent of propaganda and a supporter of Misplaced Pages policies. --NathanDW 01:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I've read what has gone on before and am quite sure that those who established this site would not be to pleased with the way it is used to discredit people for insisting that an article that is suppose to be about Lyndon LaRouche's political ideas be about THAT and from multiple sources not just PRA. PRA is the same group that has also called other prominent persons 'names' and taken quotes out of context, mixing them up with Nazis, Fascists, and even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite. This group is not exactly credible, especially if your going to judge Lyndon LaRouche not credible enough on historic matter. I would suggest instead of jumping the gun on these things you read the history behind Berlet and company and their smear campaign against certain individuals who propose a certain view or oppose a certain view. Much of their work comes close to being not only questionable but downright slander and liable to the extreme. As to your above statement, one just because someone is interested in particular subjects gives no credence to call them a supporter of anyone or thing. Two even if NathanDW is a LaRouche supporter, that makes him no different than someone being a Bush, Perot, or what-ever supporter. All political people have supporters, usually for ideas they hold. To discredit someone for being a supporter without judging their contributions based on MERIT of those contributions is wrong. Now the NOR policy. The Conspiracism page completely violates that policy. I would like to know your full affiliation and just how you became an administrator in the first place. To actively seek out and attempt to destroy the material of certain persons over and over again and use this site to forward political agendas is not only wrong but against policy. You have a history of this as well as others I've been reading about. I became interested in this whole mess when I was accused of being a LaRouche supporter just for questioning the poorly done producerism page (which has conflicting definitions of producerism and is a neologism that traces either to Berlet himself or Fazio) and for edits I made on other pages. I would like you to know that if persons such as yourself or others are going to make false allegations, then your going to have to show proof of this; and indicate why this matters at all. The MATERIAL matters...is it factual or is it not. Material from Chip Berlet, especially pertaining to this page is suspect, read your own policies. --Northmeister 02:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

From Northmeister: "even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite." This claim is either based on inferior research or is simply an outright lie. Never happened. See: User_talk:Cberlet#Red-baiting_Lie_Article.21 Apologies are optional.--Cberlet 02:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

When I am wrong I admit it. It was over SPLC which your links and links from there show the controversy. The point I make above I stand by though from everything I've read from you, I agree with their analysis. --Northmeister 03:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, again: Let's calm down our rhetoric. If you have specific complaints about the article, not the contributors, please list them here. Otherwise this just a flamewar that I will remove in due course.--Sean Black 02:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have complaints Sean, but if I list them then I will only be attacked once again for doing so. My concern is mainly authenticity and multiple sources and the structure of this article. This article should be about beliefs that are POLITICAL, not beliefs that are personal to LaRouche or about out of context statements made that are not official beliefs. This should only be about those beliefs. Links for Critics of these beliefs should be listed. I'll start there. But like I said, the same tactic as was used above on NathanDW has been used on me...thu calling me a LaRouche supporter in an attempt to rid my edits (I am not associated with that organization, though I know of them and their work on history and economics is competent,) of use, because of the Wiki policy on using LaRouche material; that's despite the fact I never once use such material or said I was affiliated with this group. Lumping into a group I do not belong to is not right, nor is it on anyone. This is a witch-hunt and McCarthyism and I reported these tactics to the Board. --Northmeister 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Restoration and why

I restored the version with the above details. It is important first because the said person's including myself all agree as people have before agreed. This article is titled to much toward one particular perspective and using material that is from 'less than reputable sources'. The original questions of the argument are legitimate. I consider deletion of that material akin to covering up the points made. This is not so much an issue over Mr. Berlet, but over a credible encyclopedic article about Mr. LaRouche's political views. The objections to the article listed are well detailed above and in the past. These are legitimate complaints and should be heard...I will repost the most relevant complaints from above, a record needs kept on this witch-hunt going on and the use of Wiki-pedia in this manner. --Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

POINTS concerning this article:

"I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?"

• • "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." -Why is this policy not being enforced? Besides Mr. Berlet and those associated with his books and website, who else concurs with his opinions to make them not fit into the category above?

Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:

Republicanism v. Fascism

Racism or Higher Culture?

The Brainwashing Incident

Let's edit them in order

We can do this!--Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)"

• • The point of this article is not to critic Mr. LaRouche's politics, but to display them as they are truly represented. The manner and glee in putting together certain parts of this article are not honorable and I question the inclusion of each of those sections as part of this page, they might belong elsewhere, not here.

"except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to by Slim Virgin"

• • This is my whole point of contention. Chip Berlet and his 'belief' has no place in this article per above, maybe elsewhere. The point SlimVirgin made is excellent, it is my point. It is appropriate to say "here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to Lyndon LaRouche" This is my issue. Express his political views, no analysis of them. An encyclopedic article should be straight, neutral, and to the point on the issue it deals with.

I will stop here for my points, because the above says it all for me. These are legitimate points about this page and need addressing and not in a manner to discredit the messenger so to speak who brings these things up. I would ask others to put their contentions down straightly as I have done. I expect the above questions to be answered fairly. --Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I wish to also add each of the points made from PubliceEye website or those associated be backed up with other sources not associated with that website. Further the stuff on Gays on down needs to be deleted, as it is smear and contains nasty stuff like attributing that his wife left him so he became anti-feminist. This is POV and it is a nasty smear. This is not fit, nor the stuff below as it presently is written. Just provide FACTS of his political beliefs, no analysis of his beliefs. Let Berlet do that on his website, which can be provided as a link in a Critics of link section. The Fascism stuff needs reworking too, to start. --Northmeister 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

To answer your questions: Yes, Chip Berlet and Cberlet are the same person. Berlet is a foremost expert on the topic, and we're fortunate to have his input. We allow adherents and detractors to edit articles, and there is no problem so long as each editor follows policies on NPOV, NOR, sock puppetes, etc. In this instance, there is no reason to believe that Berlet does not represent the mainstream view of the subject. Outside of controlled media there is no discernible positive publicity about the subject. Regarding your other issues, if LaRouche has had significant policies on gays or AIDS then this article should cover them. Some folks have complained about the censorship of LaRouche's theories here, but this is the primary article that covers them. Let's not omit anything that needs to be here that we can fit in. -Will Beback 09:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind Mr. Berlet's input; but the points he makes are not mainstream. He is associated with a group the PRA, which is a political watchdog group that takes things 'out of context' and attempts to label people. If this article or any with Mr. Berlet's contributions are to be balanced...there is a need for other sources to back what he has to say up. Mr. Berlet has been criticised and represents a fringe view. The definition given by the founder of a minority opinion applies to him. He has attacked Fulani, Perot, Buchanan, Horowitz in addition to LaRouche. His group is organized with that purpose in mind. The website is no different if not worse than LaRouches website and has come under increasing criticism for it's McCarthy like tactics against individuals on the left (especially) who decide to work with people on the right (a noble thing to achieve results, ie. the Constitutional Convention, all Peace Treaties ever signed etc.) in compromise over areas of agreement. Such individuals working together, such as Fulani and Buchanan in 2000, does not mean those individuals share common belief on everything, but they shared a common belief on the Reform Party stances; taking out of context statements, putting them in a ill-gotten context, and then linking all these individuals with the tyrannical and oppressive philosophies of Nazism and Fascism is their tactic. This is not proper for Misplaced Pages and Mr. Berlet is the only one (and his PRA associates) who seem interested in doing this. Without further backup from credible sources other than Mr. Berlet (who represents a fringe view) then it is inappropriate per wiki policies to quote him alone or to cite him or those at PubliceEye or PRA or associated sites; especially on a page of someone he is engaged in smear campaign against. That applies also to his philosophy pertaining to Buchanan and others he and PRA attack. I'm ok with his citations as long as other citations are used outside of websites or books associated with his organization; and as long as the LaRouche, Buchanan, Perot and other persons he attacks are allowed to indicate their citations pertaining to this subject. --Northmeister 15:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right, of course - Berlet's views are not mainstream, because they are the only well-researched views to speak of on the subject. The problem is that the subject is a crackpot conspiracy theorist who has attracted a cult of followers, and so, really, no views on the subject, including the subject's own, can be considered mainstream. What Berlet's views are, on the other hand, is researched, and they are vastly more mainstream than anything LaRouche has ever said and will ever say. Phil Sandifer 22:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't care to debate whether this person is right or that one is more right, that's not my point. I am asking that the wiki policy on a non-mainstream small minority (of one and a few associated with the one at PRA) be enforced. Also the above statement is your opinion, pure and simple and I am not debating opinions. I've read some of Chip's stuff since coming here due to being accused of being a LaRouche supporter and that whole mess and I stand by my assertions of his credibility. But that is really not my point, nor should it be. Debating who is more mainstream or not? I don't wish to do that. Just enforce the policy of wikipedia and be fair and honest. This page in particular should reflect LaRouche's political views as he has stated them, there doesn't need to be analysis of them by a critic of one or a few (that violates policy), just present the views and let the reader be informed. In the links section, present links from critics to Mr. Berlet's site to allow the reader to be informed of Chip's assertions and PRA's assertions. This is how neutral is done. Either enforce Wiki policy on this (I've already contacted the board of Wikimedia on this because of my concern to fairness and accuracy) or take my above advice and do it fairly. Let's not make wikipedia anyones ground or debate's over politics. Just report and the reader will decide. --Northmeister 01:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what policies you've been reading, but none that I recognize. Nowhere does it say that a subject's views must be repeated verbatim without criticism. In fact, WP:V says quite the opposite:

• Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
• ources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities.
• elf-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. (Executive Intelligence Review counts as self-published as do the LaRouche websites, because he appears to have full editorial control.)
• Self-published sources and other published sources of dubious reliability may be used as sources in articles about themselves ... so long as the information is notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and not contradicted by other published sources (my emphasis).

So in fact, we've probably included more from LaRouche himself in these articles that we had to, given that the words "unduly self-aggrandizing" and "contradicted by other published sources" could be LaRouche's middle names. SlimVirgin 01:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Bluntly put, if Berlet's views are not mainstream enough or notable enough to be in this article, then this article is not mainstream or notable enough to exist. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

What I see being raised in this discussion is that Chip Berlet has a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and that PRA should be considered a "self-published source." The policies you are raising (WP:V) apply to him too. Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation." www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm --NathanDW 01:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Then you see wrongly. Cberlet works for a research company. He does not have full editorial control and is therefore not a self-published source. SlimVirgin 03:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

What errors of fact in my work can you cite? In 35 years of writing published material I have made mistakes, but other than the opinions of a handful of critics (mostly conspiracy theorists and some right-wing zealots) I have seen no evidence to support the claims being made here about the overall integrity and accuracy of my work. I am really tired of having my professional integrity and accuracy attacked by editors who are unable to supply actual evidence.--Cberlet 02:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point Phil and SlimVirgin your not neutral in this stuff as is obvious by your name calling above. I don't want this discussion to amount to who is more credible, I want a fair and honest report on Mr. LaRouches views. Such items as on his wife and Mr. Berlet's analysis that he became anti-feminist is outright wrong for this page. There is a difference between stated political views and the reasons behind them. The only man who knows why LaRouche thinks as he does is Mr. LaRouche, not Mr. Berlet or King or anyone else. They've written books about him from the fringe and the stuff added here to 'political' views are from their source material. Lyndon LaRouche was a political candidate for President and deserves mention in one article that is fair and accurate, with links to criticism of him going to his critics websites. The entire LaRouche article does not need to contain point counter point, smear, out of context statements used in a ill-gotten way, or other material from one group of individuals and association. Does that not make sense? I agree there are far to many articles on this website about him, there should be one and it should contain an honest biography and statement of his principles, with a link section to his critics. If a fringe organization such as Mr. Berlet's is allowed to publish their material on wikipedia it is only fair and honest to allow Mr. LaRouche's people to do the same. If PublicEye is allowed as a source, then it is only fair and honest to do the same for the Larouche websites. The most important thing for an encylopedia is accuracy and backup with other sources. So if material is used from either, backup sources from outside of their organization must be provided in lieu of their inclusion. This is fair, balanced, and neutral according to wiki policy. Further, individuals should not be allowed to accuse persons of being what they are not without evidence to the same. I find it very offensive that some of my edits in the past had been taken out claiming they were 'LaRouche ideas'. This type of thing was called a name once and condemned, namely McCarthyism and the man Dwight D. Eisenhower condemned it. That is what Mr. Berlet is engaged in if you go to his site; and that is what is currently going on here at Misplaced Pages. False accusations, stalking of individuals, making accusations as to the authenticity of Mr. LaRouches ideas base on Mr. Berlet and his associates alone. I do hope you see yourselve's for what your doing. This is my last statement on this. I will not edit this page however. I will leave that to people who know Mr. LaRouches ideas politically and who are credible on this subject. SlimVirgin, Will Beback, Cbertlet are all part of a clique out to ruin the reputation of wikipedia in the name of a witch-hunt using Chip Berlet's material alone. I will not participate in this and I CONDEMN it with every being of my SOUL. --Northmeister 02:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Enough. If you disrupt this talk page with personal attacks once more, I will block you from editing for 48 hours. Fair warning. If you want to discuss, discuss- but no moreof this.--Sean Black 03:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not anti-semitic to say "the Jew"

It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. --NathanDW 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The example you give above is just another way of saying "the individual Jew": it's a turn of speech. That wasn't how LaRouche meant it. Regardless, I've removed it as original research, but I've retained that he used the expression, because he did. We can let the reader judge how he meant it. SlimVirgin 22:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Misplaced Pages policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. --NathanDW 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources

The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. SlimVirgin 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

NathanDW, keep in mind what is happening. Right now your under 'surveillance' by these people "Hmmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=BirdsOfFire&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=NathanDW&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Herschelkrustofsky&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Northmeister&offset=0&limit=500,Something amiss?--Cberlet 02:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)" which is un-wikipedia like; they continue to insist on a reading of Arbcom decisions against the wishes of Mr. Jimbo Wales "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." among other statements he has made concerning targeting people who hold certain views; they continue to disrupt any article associated with Lyndon LaRouche or they think is associated with him (evidence of unified small group with a purpose and mission of ill-repute and disruption);they have been involved in Arbcom rulings in the past brought by several editors against their tactics;they are associated with Mr. Chip Berlet;they continue to assert Chip Berlet and Dennis King are the only persons of knowledge regarding Mr. LaRouche despite the evidence that such said individuals and those associated have run a constant smear campaign against not only LaRouche but the Republican Party, the Reform Party, David Horowitz, Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, Fulani among others;their assertion that these two said individuals material be used (despite being a very small minority opinion and very much slanted) is like asserting that Marx be used as the only credible source for discussion of Capitalism -absurd and fraught with deception. In the end, I tried to mediate this case and SlimVirgin refused mediation. I never intended to edit this article but to defend editors who would, from the same sort of treatment I have received since arriving at Misplaced Pages..a McCarthy like treatment that is not honorable nor according to wikipedia rules. That said, my advice is to continue with your efforts, back yourself up with evidence, and work with those who will work with you. Be fair, honest, and to the point. These tactics of theirs will be exposed for what they are since their actions speak as loud as their words do. --Northmeister 17:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you name another third-party expert on LaRouche that we can use as another source, if you feel Berlet and King aren't enough? SlimVirgin 18:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt has done objective research on LaRouche. You can check it out at www.namebase.org. I don't think too many people think that King and Berlet are objective researchers. They are more like the media version of Mafia hitmen. If anyone has any illusions they should check out this article: www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html --BirdsOfFire 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm, that article was written from a pro-LaRouche point of view, by a supporter who has no journalistic or acedemic credibilty that I can see. So that's not a reliable source on King and Berlet's reliablity.--Sean Black 23:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not the one upholding material from a source in question for being a 'very minority view' that is not holding to consensus here. The burden is not upon I but upon editors who add material to an article. I question only the authenticity of Mr. Berlet's views in his books in lieu of the history of himself and Mr. LaRouche. I have no problem with the use of such said material if it is backed up with published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him. I make this request considering the very 'fringe' nature of PRA and their associated sites and persons. It is a fair request to protect the reputation of wikipedia from being used a political launchpad for anyone, including LaRouche people. --Northmeister 18:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Then please, by all means suggest some "published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him," who are experts on LaRouche. But if, as you say, the "burden is not upon but upon editors who add material ..." then I suggest you leave it up to those editors, and as you're not here as an editor of the article, perhaps you could stop taking up the whole talk page with your complaints? SlimVirgin 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I do leave it to those editors who have added material cited to Mr. Berlet, King and associates alone. If those editors can't provide sources outside of the stated individuals and associations in question for their 'fringe' nature, then that material needs to be removed until such said individuals provide citations outside of PRA and related sites or associations. If such citations are provided then it is legitimate for inclusion. I also petition to have this article moved to the Lyndon LaRouche biography, as Mr. LaRouche, although controversial does not warrant several articles here at Misplaced Pages per his influence upon American society or the world community. --Northmeister 02:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsense. The material cited has been published. Find reputable published sources and edit text. Complaining on this page in endless circles is a waste of time.--Cberlet 02:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

You are right, that it is a waste of time. Surely, you have sources outside of your own material that you've used to gather evidence for your books. I am interested in those sources. The reason for interest is because I find it hard to accept your research because it is not mainstream. All I need is sources added to this article which indicates outside collaboration and support of your theory about LaRouche and the quote you provide. It is not unreasonable to ask for those. In all likely-hood you have them if you've done credible research, in which case you can provide them and the matter would be closed. Any material from credible newspaper's, magazines, other published books, or from the source of your information would help to discern the accuracy of your conclusions. To base an article, that is so negative against an individual in parts, upon your assumptions and conclusions alone is not only un-scientific but is morally wrong. If someone is out there to back up what you say, let the community know, indicate the source of the material beyond your published works. Many published works exist, and the best can point to examples of other academics and published sources concerning the subject matter at hand. What is at hand here is your accusations of fascism, anti-woman ideas, and so forth of Mr. LaRouche which belong in merit if there is credible evidence for this, but not particularly in his political views article but in his biography and with outside research. All I ask is confirmation of what you say. I am no advocate for the man and did not know of him until wikipedia and my experiences here. That said, my native sense of justice cannot ignore that much of the material on LaRouche here at Misplaced Pages is from one source and associates of that source and from none other; particularly regarding a persons motivations and honor. Let us have sources and let this matter rest. --Northmeister 02:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

<--------I have read LaRouchite publications on a regular basis since 1975. I have interviewed scores of former members. I have interviewed dozens of critics of LaRouche. I have attended events and heard LaRouche speak in person. I gathered information from a wide vaiety of sources. Then I wrote articles and book chapters that were published. I have watched videos of LaRouche speeches. I read their websites. I study and write about fascism, conspiracism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and right-wing populism. What matters is that I did not self-published these articles and book chapters. They are in print, from whence they can be cited on Misplaced Pages. Much material that is damning to LaRouche on Misplaced Pages was produced as a result of LaRouche defenders claiming I or some other editor had misquoted LaRouche or taken his quotes out of context. This is not true. Either 1) edit using Wiki guidelines, 2) suggest an alternative wording for a sentence or paragraph backed by reputable published cites, or 3) stop wasting all of our time with vague complaints that are little more than personal attacks on me and my research. Edit or stop complaining. Please!--Cberlet 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

All right then. I accept your statements above on a good faith basis. I have no intention of editing as I have said before. I wish you and the others to be cordial with those who do wish to edit this page and allow room for reason. I have had my say and will write no more about this. I ask that you extend the same sort of consideration I've given you to NathanDW and others in the future. That is all I ask. Thank You. --Northmeister 05:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I found out about the Alexa test (Misplaced Pages:Google_test#Alexa_test) which is supposed to help decide whether a website is a suitable source. I checked the Political Research Associates on the Alexa site www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=www.publiceye.org and it seems that this should not be considered a suitable source. --NathanDW 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The page you are referring to covers whether a website is notable enough to have an article, in the absence of other information. It does not concern whether an organizatoin that has a website is sufficient to user as a reliable source. That is covered by Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. -Will Beback 21:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You are right. I checked that myself. Seems to me that there is a lot of stuff used by Political research that should not be. They should not be used because they do not have a high rating compared to EIR. --IAMthatIAM 16:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That's not the way things work around here. Nice try. -Will Beback 22:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Time to remove the flag.--Cberlet 22:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Anti-semitism and other criticisms

I think Misplaced Pages is in danger of showing a structural bias in the way it distributes accusations and counter-accusations about people across their respective entries. Most of the criticisms of LaRouche, which basically seem to me to boil down to slurs, smears and vague innuendo and insinuation, backed, if by anything, with tenuous quotes, should be briefly summarized in Larouche's article and fully documented in the entries' of the respective authors of those criticisms.

As it is, entries can be "philibustered" if a few extremely partisan editors show up and start demanding that every single, pedantic claim of theirs is inserted for "balance". Eventually these claims become the "debate" surrounding the subject, and this debate takes precedence to the subject itself.

There really is not a SINGLE piece of evidence in the article for any categorically anti-semitic statement made by Larouche, just vague innuendo. Concepts like "classical theories" of anti-semitism are utterly bogus. Debates about the nature of fascism have no intrinsic relevance to the article's subject and it seems to me are basically included, once again, as a form of innuendo.

Misplaced Pages ought to be an encyclopedia, and it can't selectively become a running blog on a political struggle on a message board with quasi-encyclopedic semantics.

I agree with the above comments, and I note that Chip Berlet, who is both an editor for this article and the single most quoted critic, has removed the long standing "disputed" tag without offering any response to the issues raised, so I will put it back. --172.190.55.189 14:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree -- this is not an agreed-upon position, and I am removing the {{totally disputed}} tag again based on the following: A lot of work was done by a number of editors on the article to create better balance, and it seems to be much improved. If there emerges more of a consensus that the article is still imbalanced, we should put the tag back, but its purpose is to show a large division of opinion -- not that a few people find it imbalanced.

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 17:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm the author of the first post to this sub thread. I appreciate the need to show a wide division of opinion. I just feel that there's a certain prejudice being manifested against Larouche as a political fringe dweller that I find disturbing. The prejudice is a lower threshold for what constitutes important and reasonable criticism of himself and his opinions. If the critics really are interested in the quality of the encyclopedia and not their own agenda of smearing Larouche, let them create a sub-article for their own views of Larouche's views. For the record, I don't like Larouche. I think he's a demagogue, a dilettante and an irresponsible historical revisionist. Nonetheless I'm interested in his ideas, and I want a reasonable article!

Thankyou --Tarma 2002 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Re-reading the section in question I see that it neutrally reports what two major critics say about him. Later on it neutrally provides information which contradicts their criticism. Do you think that we should omit the info entirely? LaRouche's positions are often described by himself or his followers in a complicated or indirect manner, and they have changed over the decades. -Will Beback 20:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is very dubious to describe them as "major critics." They have a small, cult-like following among LaRouche-haters, but no major presence in the media, or academic credentials. If I am not mistaken, neither of them has graduated from college. There is criticism of LaRouche in the mainstream media, but it does not reflect these oddball theories that are given so much weight at Misplaced Pages. --NathanDW 01:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Are there more major critics of LaRouche then Berlet and King? If so then please name them. -Will Beback 04:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Robert L. Bartley, for example. Pulitzer prize winner. --NathanDW 15:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Bartley also describes LaRouche as being anti-Semitic.

• Sometimes it is overt anti-Semitism; with "Children of Satan," Mr. LaRouche has chosen an Aryan-nation phrase for Jews (descendants of Cain, who was the result of Satan seducing Eve, in this perfervid theology). At other times, often in the hands of accusers who are Jewish themselves, it is a charge of secret loyalties. The Jews, or Israel, or the Likud have conspired to take over American foreign policy.

However that article does not so much criticize LaRouche as it criticizes media outlets for using some of the same concepts and terminology as LaRouche. I also note that the LaRouche movement discounts Bartley just like it discounts Berlet and King, in this case callimg Bartley "an asset of the Mont Pelerin Society" -Will Beback 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought there was something weird in the charge that LaRouche is anti-Semitic. For example, in this quote from Bartley, he says it is "overt anti-Semitism" that LaRouche uses the phrase "Children of Satan," but on the cover of the "Children of Satan" pamphlet they had a picture of Donald Rumsfeld, who wasn't Jewish last time I checked. Bartley's argument seems to be the same as that of Berlet in the Misplaced Pages article. Bartley also says (it is difficult to follow his logic) that this sort of overt anti-Semitism can be practiced by Jews. This reminds me of the very first time I ever heard of LaRouche, which was on a TV show Geraldo Rivera used to have back in the '80s. He interviewed a general who called the LaRouche organization "a bunch of anti-Semitic Jews," which I thought at the time was rather unusual. --ManEatingDonut 13:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Dennis King

I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet,

Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Misplaced Pages. --NathanDW 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Your POV opinion of King has no weight here.--Cberlet 03:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you don't need to take my word for it. Just read this and draw your own conclusions. --NathanDW 19:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Your POV opinion of King has no weight here on Wiki since King's book was published by a major reputable publisher. A federal jury found that calling LaRouche a "small-time Hitler" was not defamatory.--Cberlet 20:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

POV edits

This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche. This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.--Cberlet 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, it is customary to be specific when making a POV complaint, citing both the offending edits and the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. --ManEatingDonut 07:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

And I will be specific as soon as I finish removing the fawning advertisements and plugs for LaRouche from the other page where we are discussing this.--Cberlet 13:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Two recent edits that were wrongly reverted

On this edit it seems silly and misleading to argue that the edits labeled "general" are any different than the ones labeled "critical." It would be more honest to label the external links either "pro-" or "anti-" LaRouche.

On the John Train edit revert (,) let's not forget (as some editors seem to) that this is an article about the Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche, and we should make an effort to stay current. The LaRouche people are pushing this John Train thing hard -- my sister picked up their pamphlet on campus last week.

I was initially in favor of opening up the article John Train Salon again (instead of a redirect to this article,) but Will Beback/Willmcw/User2004 told me to just put the information in this one (see .) I'm sure that I'm not the only person who is puzzled about why Chip Berlet and Dennis King, two hippy-dippy conspiracy theorists with no academic credentials, suddenly had access to wads of foundation money and media time. Since they are also being given a platform here at Misplaced Pages, this information (which seems to answer the riddle) should not be hidden or suppressed. --NathanDW 20:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I was able to read Talk:John Train Salon, but when I tried to read the article, I got stuck in a loop where I kept getting redirected to Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche. Can someone please tell me how to navigate to the John Train Salon article? Thanks in advance. --ManEatingDonut 22:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"John Train Salon" was merged into this article. -Will Beback 23:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

You can read the last complete version of the "salon" article by following this link. Very little of it actually made it into the merged version. --172.193.31.88 06:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It is appalling that the silly story of a John Train conspiracy is being presented as fact. I was at the two meetings at Train's apartment; they were informational only. No plot was discussed or developed. This is all an artifically generated urban legend and should be dispensed with in one or two sentences with the caveat that no reputable source has confirmed the LaRouchian allegations. Herbert Quinde, author of the affidavit, was not even present at the meetings and has a reputation as a prankster and a source of false information (like when he told the Spanish secret police in the early 1980s where to find Basque terrorists in France--the Spanish sent agents to kidnap totally innocent people as a result). Quinde's main source for the plot, Michael Hudson, was bullshitting Quinde because he was fed up with being harassed by the LaRouchians and thought he'd freak them out with a little disinformation. (The LaRouchians had borrowed money from Hudson and refused to pay him back; when he sued them, they printed articles calling him a KGB agent. With experiences like that does anyone thing Hudson would or should have bothered to give them accurate information?)--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)P.S. Another example of this silliness is the Internet rumor that my travel expenses to the meeting were paid by the John Birch Society. In fact, John Train's apartment was only a few block from my own and I walked to the meetings. I received no monetary compensation for attending from either the JBS, the CPUSA, the CIA, the KGB, little green men or anyone else.--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Chip Berlet already explained over at Talk:John Train Salon that only he got the travel money. But do you deny that you got foundation money for your book? --Tsunami Butler 08:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Tsunami, why do you even ask this? You know perfectly well that in the Acknowledgement section at the end of my book I listed grants from the Smith Richardson Foundation and the Stern Fund. So what? Neither of these grants came from any John Train conspiracy, since such a conspiracy never existed.-- Dking 19:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I am asking something more specific. The LaRouche website makes this claim about the John Train meeting you attended: "At the meeting, arrangements were also made to have King's planned book on LaRouche financed by the League for Industrial Democracy and by the Smith Richardson Foundation." True or false? They also make this claim: "On Aug. 6, 1984, attorneys for LaRouche depositioned Dennis King. When asked about the circumstances under which he was introduced to Pat Lynch, King was silent. His attorney, Scott McLaughlin, interrupted the deposition, and took King out into the hallway for 20 minutes; when they returned, King claimed he could not recall how he had first met Lynch." Your comment? --Tsunami Butler 21:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to use Misplaced Pages to conduct research that would help a convicted felon with a histiory of harassment. If nothing else, it violates WP:OR.--Cberlet 02:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Separate article for criticisms of LaRouche?

I apologise if this point has already been discussed and archived, i had a quick look and didn't see it. I'm wondering whether it would be easier to gain consensus on this and other LaRouche articles (and avoid NPOV tags,mediation,etc) if the analysis and criticisms of LaRouche and his theories were grouped together in a single article dedicated to that purpose. I'm no LaRouche supporter (quite the opposite), and i certainly think that such criticisms are valid and have a place on wikipedia, but i don't think that place is scattered amongst a number of different articles. The title of this article indicates to me that it should explain what the political views of Lyndon LaRouche are, not analyse the validity of those views. I would explect to see such analysis in an article titled 'Criticisms of Lyndon LaRouche' or something similar. Content in this article (and other related articles) could then be replaced by single sentences like "Point X is disputed by critics of LaRouche; see (article link here)" --D Elkington 06:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel much the same as you: that it's be best to consolidate criticism. There are some "Criticisms of ..." articles on controversial figures (though one just got deleted ) and they have the benefit of preventing the main articles from being overwhelmed by criticism. However the approach preferred by the community, and even by Misplaced Pages's founder, is to mix in the criticism so that all matters are covered neutrally and the pros and cons are presented together. See Misplaced Pages:criticism. -Will Beback · † · 10:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, i hadn't seen that discussion before. I definitely lean more towards the second proposal, i think it gives articles a more encyclopaedic feel. After reading the 'Criticism in a "Reception" or "Reception history" section' guidelines, i wonder if this might be applied to the LaRouche articles. Perhaps 'Analysis of the political views of LaRouche', as this could include both the positive and negative POV. --D Elkington 01:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

There isn't all that much explicit criticism in this article, considering its overall length. However some sections, even when they only quote LaRouche, appear to express a critical point of view. If you'd like to work on improving this article I suggest taking a section at a time. This article was the subject of bitter fights a long time ago, and involved editors were too exhausted to come back and fix things up after the dust settled. That work is long overdue. -Will Beback · † · 06:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Who calls LaRouche a fascist?

In an article pretty much dominated by preposterous sanitization of LaRouche's ideas, the views of his critics are slyly demeaned, like when it was said that LaRouche is called a fascist by "leftwing writers and orators." I changed this to "some critics" since the term has been used in reference to LaRouche by a number of people who are decidedly NOT leftwing, such as the late Senator Moynihan, former Our Town publisher Ed Kayatt (a rockbound Reaganite), former Our Town editor and editorial writer Kalev Pehme, cold warrior Irwin Suall (who called LaRouche a "small-time Hitler") and many American Jewish supporters of Likud, such as the late Howard Adelson. Chip Berlet's conservative nemesis John Rees has referred to LaRouche as a "roast-beef fascist," which is not simply a joke since historically many fascists have either come out of the left, sought alliances there, or merged leftwing and rightwing rhetoric in their mass agitation (by attacking capitalism but saying the bad side of capitalism is a Jewish plot). I also took out the word "orators" since in context it was an obvious nonsense term meant to suggest a lack of credibility without having to prove it.--Dking 22:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit was not mine

The history of this article now records that I made an insert in this article today having to do with code language, which was promptly removed by Slim Virgin. I absolutely did not make this edit and have no idea why it is recorded under my name.--Dking 23:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

John Train Salon

I know that Dking and Cberlet have a particular desire to eliminate the John Train material from this article, but this is an article about LaRouche's political views, and LaRouche is the ultimate verifiable source on what those views are. I don't accept SlimVirgin's argument that, in effect, we may not report LaRouche's views on Living Persons. She certainly isn't applying that across the board, or we would delete most of this article. The material deleted is sourced not only to LaRouche, but also an affidavit submitted in court, so I can't accept the idea that it can be deleted to please certain editors. --NathanDW 06:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

All contentious claims about living persons that are sourced to LaRouche should be removed from this article. Nathan, if you restore any again, it will be a BLP violation. If there's a court document and if it's independent of LaRouche, by all means use it as a source, but you should also find an independent secondary source. Until you have that, you can't add this material. Please read WP:BLP. SlimVirgin 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I will try to find some outside source for this, but it seems to me that this is an unusual circumstance. This is in a section on "LaRouche's conspiracy theories," so it is not being presented as proven. I don't think your BLP argument applies in this case.

Also, I note on various talk pages that neither King nor Berlet denies that these meetings took place. They simply claim that it was a normal, innocent gathering of quasi-left-wing activists, deep-pockets right-wing financiers and intelligence operatives. So the facts are not in dispute, as far as I can see-- only the interpretation, which is of course, just another LaRouche conspiracy theory. So, where's the contention? --Tsunami Butler 03:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I've worked on this a little, but it seems a bit ridiculous to document a LaRouche conspiracy theory with additional sources. It is not being presented as a widely-shared conspiracy theory, just a LaRouche conspiracy theory, so it doesn't really matter how many people agree with it. As I said, the facts themselves are not in dispute, so SlimVirgin, I would ask you to explain your thinking on this more fully. --Tsunami Butler 03:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"According to a sworn affidavit..." I guess I could have changed this to 'According to a pdf file of unknown origin on a geocities site...", but I didn't really see the point, so I took it out instead, along with everything that seemed to depend on it. If the point is that the LaRouche orginazition thinks lots of people are conspiring to make them look like loons, I'm not sure how notable that is anyway. Tom Harrison 04:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced that cite with a cite to the affidavit itself, which is provided in the Daniel Brandt article. What is notable about the meetings is the stellar grouping (except for King and Berlet) of persons and organizations that attended. It has COINTELPRO written all over it. --Tsunami Butler 15:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. The use of primary sources alone is also discouraged. Please find a mainstream secondary source for this material, or leave it out. SlimVirgin 15:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Would you kindly be specific about what you consider to be a "self-published third party source" in this article? --Tsunami Butler 15:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You used a self-published website as a secondary source, I believe, and an affidavit as a primary source. Others used a LaRouche publication. None of these are reliable sources within the meaning of WP:ATT and WP:BLP. For contentious claims about living persons, you must use the best possible sources, which in this case would mean a mainstream news organization or other publisher. Please decide whether to answer here or on your talk page, but not both, please. SlimVirgin 15:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be reluctant to name the source you are objecting to. Is it Daniel Brandt? I have gathered from various Misplaced Pages controversies that you and he don't get along. His organization is no different than Chip Berlet's (in fact, Chip Berlet was once part of his organization) and in fact, there is an organization, whereas Dennis King's website is entirely self-published.

But you still haven't answered what I think is the main question here: we are not talking about "contentious claims about living persons." We are talking about a conspiracy theory of Lyndon LaRouche. You yourself have taken pains to emphasize that he is a conspiracy theorist, and this is an article specifically about his theories. I don't see how you can object to LaRouche as a source for his own theories. --Tsunami Butler 15:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, when I ask you to post either here or on my talk page, but not both, why do you continue to post on both?

Please don't edit further without reading our content policies. That's what they are there for, so that individual editors don't have to explain everything from scratch on every talk page about every issue. SlimVirgin 15:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please. I'm not asking you to explain everything from scratch. I'm asking you to specify which source you are objecting to. --Tsunami Butler 15:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm objecting to all the sources you used. One is a self-published website; one is what looks like a post to the National Review blog; one is a LaRouche publication. Find a mainstream source. If you can't find one, let that tell you something.

Question: have you read the content policies? SlimVirgin 15:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Questions for SlimVirgin

Let me preface this by saying I have read the content policies, and I think that you have a novel interpretation of BLP. Here are my questions:

1. You say that theories or claims made by LaRouche about living persons may not be sourced to LaRouche publications. Using this interpretation of BLP, do you think that this edit, made two days ago by yourself, should be removed? It refers to a claim made by LaRouche about advisors to the British royal family, and is sourced to a LaRouche publication.

No, because it doesn't name anyone, and it's clearly absurd. But you could find another source if you prefer. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

2. You say that claims about living persons may not be sourced to "self-published third party sources." Are you referring here to Public Information Research, the organization associated with Daniel Brandt?

No third-party self-published sources are allowed. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

3. Do you believe that Public Information Research is in a different category, for the purposes of BLP source citing, than Political Research Associates (Chip Berlet), DennisKing.org (Dennis King), or the Rick A. Ross Institute (Rick Ross)? The LaRouche articles have abundant derogatory material on LaRouche sourced to these latter three websites. Do you think that these articles would conform better to BLP if they were to rely strictly on mainstream sources? --Tsunami Butler 23:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Political Research Associates is a research company with employees. As for the other two, I don't know much about them. Perhaps you can do the research and determine whether they're self-published. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

4. PIR is also a research company with employees. Their home page also indicates that they were incorporated in 1989 and have 501(c)3 status. You haven't actually said whether you think PIR is a "self-published third party source," but given these facts, it seems clear that they are not. Do you agree? --Tsunami Butler 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There are no employees listed at the cited page--Cberlet 18:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The alleged "internal memo" and BLP

As SlimVirgin has pointed out, the standards for sourcing under Biographies of Living Persons are very high. Dubious sourcing is unacceptable. The document attributed to LaRouche is supposed to be an "internal memo." Is there a reliable, mainstream source where LaRouche acknowledges that he wrote this? "High Times" and the "Justice for Jeremiah website" are hardly mainstream sources. --Tsunami Butler 06:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Please say which material you're talking about. SlimVirgin 18:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The two purported quotes from LaRouche which are supposedly from an "internal memo" called "Politics of Male Impotence." Following the cites to Chip Berlet's website, the source is a scanned image of a sheet of typewritten paper. This totally fails the WP:V test, and also runs contrary to the rule that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" at WP:A. I am reverting this material. --Tsunami Butler 22:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am also restoring the NPOV tag -- this article is being used as a vehicle to promote WP:FRINGE theories of Chip Berlet and Dennis King, and needs cleanup to conform to NPOV policy standards. --Tsunami Butler 22:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not an exceptional claim; LaRouche is well-known for making extreme statements. And Political Research Associates is regarded as a reliable source, and has been accepted as such by the ArbCom. SlimVirgin 22:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all." --WP:BLP. Are you going to argue that Chip Berlet's website is not partisan? And in this particular case, you have an unusual circumstance: these are quotes that are being attributed to LaRouche. On whose say-so? What person is claiming that LaRouche wrote them, and how would this person be in a position to know? These are unpublished statements. Under BLP, they should go. --Tsunami Butler 22:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The source is LaRouche himself, and if you read the memo, it's very clearly material from him. Also, as I've told you many times, PRA is regarded as a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, and the ArbCom has supported that. This isn't the place to discuss that decision. Please don't keep tagging the article whenever you find something you don't like.

Although it's fine to include the quote in terms of its sourcing, I'd question including it as an example of bias against "non-white, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities," as we currently do. If you read the whole memo, it appears to be largely misogynist rather than racist, as he rails against German and Italian mothers too. SlimVirgin 23:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

How would you know whether is is LaRouche? If you have some factual basis for saying so, please insert your real name in the article as the person vouching for its authenticity, or better yet, leave it out. As you say, LaRouche is known for making extreme statements. Therefore, what is preventing you, Berlet and King from making your case against him with actual, verifiable quotes? There are no shortage of them on the web, from veriable, LaRouche sources. There should be no need for you to resort to such a dubious source. --Tsunami Butler 01:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Having taken another look at both "LaRouche" ArbCom cases, I see that they both pre-date the BLP policy. Therefore, I think that it is incorrect for you to assert that the ArbCom has given a blanket blessing to the use of Chip Berlet's website as a source. I think that it should be handled with extreme caution under BLP, especially because it is so often the source of "derogatory" characterizations of living persons. Whereever possible, a mainstream source should be found, and in many cases, such as the one we are discussing, the material should be removed under BLP. Your responsibilities as an Admin should take precedence over your POV in such a situation. --Tsunami Butler 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Dillin, John. "Lyndon LaRouche has got America's attention now!", Christian Science Monitor (Boston, MA), The Christian Science Publishing Society, 1986-03-27, p. 1. Retrieved on 8 March 2006. - Born to Quaker parents, LaRouche got his political start in the 1940s, when he was a member of the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party. At the time he took the name Lyn Marcus, after Lenin and Marx. Other mainstream sources also mention his use of the name Lyn Marcus. Tom Harrison 02:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Tsunami Butler, Political Research Associates isn't Chip Berlet's website; it's a professional research organization. SlimVirgin 02:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Tom, I am aware that LaRouche wrote under the pen name Lyn Marcus. That's in his autobiography. I am questioning whether the image of an unpublished typewritten document of unknown origin that is posted by Chip Berlet on the Political Research Associates website is actually written by LaRouche/Lyn Marcus, and I am also questioning the decision of SlimVirgin and Cberlet to insist upon using such a document as a source for Misplaced Pages, particularly when the number of authentic, verifiable documents attributable to LaRouche numbers in the thousands on the internet alone. --Tsunami Butler 15:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected the cites on this to reflect the fact that it is an unpublished document of questionable authenticity. I won't revert until there has been further discussion. Ultimately this is still a BLP issue -- the BLP policy requires that we use unimpeachable sources. --Tsunami Butler 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone from the LaRouche movement questioned the authenticity? SlimVirgin 17:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. As I understand it, the purpose of WP:BLP is to anticipate and avoid complaints of that nature. I have restored my edits, because the previous format makes it appear as if the article in question was published, which it was not. Regardless of whether LaRouche wrote it, we have a responsibility not to mislead the readers by making it appear as if it were published.

I have restored the NPOV tag, which has been on this article since I began editing Misplaced Pages last October. SlimVirgin, it was you who unilaterally intervened to change the status quo on this. It ought to be obvious that there are ongoing neutrality disputes about this article. --Tsunami Butler 21:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You're editing in violation of the ArbCom cases and you've violated 3RR. The material was published by Political Research Associates. Do you deny this?

If LaRouche has not denied the quotes are his, you're engaged in OR by claiming that there's no evidence they're his.

As for the tag, there are always going to be POV issues from the perspective of LaRouche followers, but that doesn't mean there are real ones, so don't keep adding the tag. SlimVirgin 23:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I find your interpretation of BLP to be amazingly flexible, depending, of course, on whether the Living Person is someone you like or dislike. Also, could you specify how Ms. Butler is violating an ArbCom decision? --NathanDW 02:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Questions for SlimVirgin

1. I also would like to know how you think I am violating the LaRouche ArbCom decisions. I have read both of them carefully. Please indicate the remedy or remedies you are referring to.

You're acting to promote LaRouche. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This is baloney, and self-serving baloney as well. I am arguing that LaRouche, the subject of this article and others, is merely not exempt from the WP:BLP policy. This does not constitute "promotion of LaRouche." It appears to me that you are acting to exert ownership of these articles to make them a showcase for the esoteric fringe theories of Dennis King and Chip Berlet, both of whom are now editing Misplaced Pages, engaging in self-promotion and excessive self-citing in violation of WP:COI. You have thus far refused to discuss BLP as it applies to the subject of these articles. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

2. Why do you object to identifying the "internal memo" as an unpublished document? By citing it as if it were a published source, you mislead the reader.

It wasn't unpublished. The part we are quoting was published or we wouldn't be able to quote it. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

See #3, below. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

3. You ask whether I deny that the material was published by Political Research Associates. No, I don't. That's exactly the point. It should be attributed to PRA, not to LaRouche. I don't care whether the Washington Post has a published account that says that Dennis King says that Chip Berlet says that LaRouche wrote it (and Chip ain't saying where he got this document.) Just because the parson's wife repeats gossip, it doesn't make the gossip more true. Now for my question: why is it that you don't recognize this as a BLP issue?

We report what published sources say, and we have a published source. As a matter of interest, how do you know it wasn't also published by LaRouche? SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Because by following the cites, the trail leads to a typewritten document, posted by Chip Berlet at the PRA website. The trail ends there. Where did he get it? Dumpster diving? He doesn't say. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

4. Is it your view that Public Information Research, Inc. is a source that may not be used at Misplaced Pages? If not, why not? I am trying to ascertain whether they have "employees" as opposed to "directors," since Cberlet is raising that as an issue. But where in WP:RS does it make that distinction? --Tsunami Butler 16:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Political Research Associates? They have staff as explained above.

No, I mean Public Information Research, which has Daniel Brandt on its board of directors. Is it your view that this a source that may not be used at Misplaced Pages? If not, why not? --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've had enough of this back and forth. The material has been correctly sourced, and there's no point in going on about it. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Like it says at the talk of the page, this is a controversial topic and substantial changes to the article must be discussed before being made. I feel like I am having difficulty getting your cooperation in this. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

I see a neutrality dispute here. Does that make me a LaRouche follower? Does it take some special rank or status at Misplaced Pages to add a tag to an article? --Don't lose that number 21:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)