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Military history: Aviation / United States / World War II Start‑class

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Does anyone know where I can get the movie Tuskegg Airmen?

Names of the more prominent flyers

My library is in a shambles, but it would be nice to add the names of some of the other prominent members of the group, there were several well-known and decorated officers......--Pmeisel 19:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Britannica highlight

An article entitled Tuskegee Airmen appeared at britannica.com as a Britannica highlight on 30 May 2005. See . Courtland 16:59, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

Does this page need semi-protection?

I am not a wiki admin, just a writer, but ever since this page entered my watchlist, i have seen regular instances of racialist (anti-African American) vandalism. I reverted one such attack today, after several hours during which i reported it, hoped a bot or an admin would fix it, and saw it was still online in candalized form. Is there is some standard delimiting the number of racialist attacks per month/year/whatever that must be endured before admins give thought to the semi-protction of a page? I counted 10 revesions due to racialist vandalism on this page since January 1, 2006. Catherineyronwode 23:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Equipment and Statistics

The previous entry contained some factual errors. The Tuskegee Airmen may have flown P-39s in the US, but I can find no indication that they flew Airacobras overseas. Dr. Frank Olynyk's Mediterranean Theater victory list for USAAF units shows only P-40s, 47s (April-May '44), and 51s.

The figure of 400 German aircraft destroyed is not supported by any source I have found. The four squadrons' cumulative total of aerial victories is 113. Claims for grounded German planes are unknown.

The episode in which a German destroyer was reported sunk by gunfire was apparently an Italian patrol boat run aground. I cannot find the source right now, but it was in a naval journal. I'll see if I can relocate. At any rate, no such German destroyer appears in any compilation of Kriegsmarine losses in Italy, and it has never been identified. The ship's name or number would be welcome information. Meanwhile, the episode seems a simple case of misidentification--common in combat.

Here's an Axis history chronology for June 44, month of the event, with no mention:

http://www.feldgrau.com/june.html

I believe that the TV movie stated that the 332nd shot down "3 of the 8 German jets destroyed by the allies," and the claim has been accepted at face value. In fact, total USAAF fighter claims alone ran about 160, plus bomber gunners and the RAF jet claims. See Wm. Hess, "German Jets Vs. the Army Air Force" (1996).

Problem Solved

Turns out that the "destroyer" was a WW I Italian torpedo boat redesignated TA-22 by the Germans. There were in fact no German destroyers in the Mediterranean--no mission for them.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/torpedoboats/ta/ta22/index.html

Please sign your entries. The 332nd initially flew P-39s, except the 99th (P-40s), while with the 12th AF. They were not an escort group at this point and so did not engage in air-to-air combat. But they did fly P-39s in Italy. In June they converted to the P-51 and began their escort role--all of the claims for the 100th, 301st, and 302nd date after 6-9-44. The official kill credits are 108.5 but this figure may have been revised upward, since Buddy Archer was originally credited with only 4 kills. The highest scoring group against German jets was the 357th Fighter Group (Yeager's group) with 18. TV movies are entertainment; an encyclopedia should strive for truthfulness, wherevr that goes.--Buckboard 08:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Previous Pilots All White?

That statement requires elaboration. As written, it is false. Hispanics were fairly common in military aviation (the first US airman killed at Pearl Harbor was Ensign Manuel Gonzales) and there were some Indians (Lt. Hiawatha Mohawk flew P-51s.) --— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.134.240 (talk • contribs)

• Thanks for the notice. I'll make the changes. --Dystopos 18:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah but were the white hispanics or brown hispanics? Considering the complexities of racial terms it may be safer to just say blacks were not allowed. --Gbleem 12:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical Questions

I am not going to edit this page or criticize it given the factual controversy which seems irrelevant to me re the TA reputation, but it deserves careful editing and then locking to prevent racist attacks. The central fact of the Tuskegee Airmenis the wonder that not only did they exist, but they won well-deserved honors against great odds. Historical accuracy is a sometimes elusive, especially when there's a movie around "based on a true story." The TA Airmen experience is not immune from the fog of war. You don't have to be perfect to be good or great.

"Never lost a bomber" is almost certainly wrong. A historian for the "Tuskegee Airmen Inc." - William F. Holton -- does not believe that claim is true. There is a story (with an unfortunate numb headline) at the Washington Post for December 11, 2006 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121100657.html) in which he says Air Force records indicate at least a few bombers were shot down while under escort by the TA. His research meshes with that of Daniel Haulman of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, Al.

This is from that story. "The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis, said he will no longer claim in speeches that the group never lost a bomber under its escort." Also "One mission report says that on July 26, 1944: "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open." A second report, dated Aug. 31, 1944, praises group commander Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr. by saying he "so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses." A third report says that on Sept. 12, 1944: "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."

The article concludes: " The only way to determine the group's true record is to scour the post-mission reports of bomber groups that were escorted by the Airmen's P-51 fighters. Alan Gropman, who teaches at the National Defense University in Washington, told the Advertiser that more research is needed, but added: "Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be minuscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers."

That last comment is odd, because if there is a message from the Tuskegee Airmen story it is that the color of someone's skin does not indicate the quality of the man or woman. Followup stories from the AP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600849.html in Mongomery cite interview with bomber pilot Warren Ludlum of NJ as confirming his b-24 was shot down while under Red Tail Escort.But Ludlum also says he " liked being escorted by them because of their aggressiveness. He said he knew he was being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen on the day he was shot down because one of them, Starling B. Penn, was shot down at the same time and ended up in the same German prison camp as Ludlum."

Whatever their individual attitudes, it makes no sense to compare pilots based on race -- except that the pervasive racism have resulted in the TA being better trained and some of its pilots were more experienced than others -- of both races. The nature of the war varied by year, month, day and mission. There is a possible explanation of how the myth started. It is possible that there are several reasons for the myth. But the TA includes roughly a thousand pilots and more support. A fighter group would probably have operated 75 aircraft (can't be sure of the number without records) and the TA groups probably comprised 150 pilots not including rotations. Everyone doesn't know everything and mission stats would have been classified. Even the "good war" required heroes and sometimes a little polish were given to reality.

Bomber pilot Colin P. Kelly Jr, WWII's first American hero, did not win the Medal of Honor and he did not as reported sink the Battleship Haruna which was confused with the heavy cruiser Ashigara and which was not damaged by the attack of Kelly or four other B-17s. Both ships survived until near the end of the war. Although recommended for the Medal of Honor, Kelly won a Distinguished Service Cross. His flying allowed most of his crew to esacape a badly damaged plane. The embellishment of a sunken battleship could have been deliberate as a public moral booster or, just as likely an inaccurate report that was difficult to correct after the fact.

A fair amount of assumed belief and printed material of WWII has turned out to be wrong in detail. The only way to even approach some reality on the TA would for the historians to comb through the TA mission reports whch is harder than it might seem. And to be thoroughly accurate, there would need to be a day to day matchup of Allied information with that of the Axis. What they will find is people who performed well under fire and who must have had bad days and good. Being "ordianry" pilots under the circumstances was a great feat. A heart surgeon who never loses a patient is taking the hard cases. Is a pilot in a great airplane who holds off an opposiion pilot superior to one in a lesser plane who sometimes fails.

Movies usually get things wrong, i.e "Pearl Harbor" was filled with errors/mistakes as was "Memphis Belle. But Pearl Harbor happened and the Memphis Belle flew its missions. The TA were in the European theater early and stayed late. They didn't win the war. They were part of winning the war despite everything which what makes them important. By being where they were, they did much to start changing thingsl, sometimes one person at a time. An example is at http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0202/crew.html

The claims about jet aircraft are just careless mistakes. Some may have believed that to be the case, but allied pilots learned reasonably well to cope with the German jets (and the v1 Buzz bomb). Despite their speed advantage, there were tradeoffs that could be exploited. One writer . despite their speed and pilot advantage (good, experienced pilots, many aces, were assigned). Alllied pilots learned to ambush them on their landling glide paths, taking out 15 in one day according to one account. Ureliable engines killed some. Lack of fuel kept many aircraft on the ground in the late stages.

Was it a cruiser, a destroyer or a gunboat. The action report may say one thing and the reality be another. Misjudgments happen and can be easier than eathbound tpes thing. A lot of mistakes were made and till are. The real mistake is to hang the TA's reputation on some myth while the reality is extraordinary as it is.

Some truly represensible whie racists were heroic pilots during the same war.Their success or lack of success in other cases did not change who they were. Getting the TA right is not embellishing a classic struggle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.120.63.94 (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ALERT EDITING PIRATE: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - SOMEONE IS CHANGING MY EDITS TO MAKE THEM SOUND BAD/RACIST??? WHEN CHAING SPELLING ERRORS I SAW THAT I THERE WAS AN EDITING CONFLICT. HOWEVER, AFTERWARDS NOTHING APPEARED DIFFERENT? ONLY THROUGH REREADING AND CHECKING COULD I REALIZE THAT SOMEONE WAS EDITING MY COMMENTS SUBDTLEY, MAKING THEM MORE GENERALIZED AND SEEMINGLY RACIST.

LOCKED HUH? Unsourced claims, exagerations, etc, not up to snuff.

Where is the proof that they were some of the best airmen in the army air corps? None of the top aces of the USA Army Air Corps were even in the tuskegee group? Also, when were they requested SPECIFICALLY By Bomber crews, and How did the Germans even know they were flying against African Americans yet alone where is the source for the alleged German nickname for them "black birdmen"??? I can't find the Germans "honoring" them in any official source as the article claims either. They were in fact mainly cherry picked Ivey League African-Americans who, with more extensive training then many other white crews, did well but not more "amazing" or outstanding, etc as this article which is basically just popular-lore, would have you believe relative to the rest of the Army Air Corps' vets. I'm just saying history needs to be accurate at Misplaced Pages not fabrication such as the TA myths. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

- Added: Especially, in regards to "Birdmen" mention, if the U.S. B-17 crews did not know the TA were black according to this article (in the beganning in my knowledge) then how could the Germans have known they were black? Pilots wore masks by the way.

TA "NEVER LOST A BOMBER" = WRONG + LATE IN WAR ANYWAY!!!

By the time the TA were escorting bombers in Europe it was late in the war, few bombers were being lossed on any fronts! the heavy bomber casualties for USA were mainly in 1942 in Channel hopping raids, then to a lesser degree in 1943, and much less in 1944-45. The B-17 crews also got much better, including their many gunners of course, as their tours went along, or new ones started. Give them some credit, those '50 cal's weren't useless, you know? Not to mention, Luftwaffe smaller, and less training and experience for German pilots (many already KIA/WIA 1939-44) ) by the time Tuskeegee in Air-Escort over Europe.

Added: Not many Bombers shot down with the TA is mainly a sign of the time, as with other crews late in the war, because higher loss rates for the bombers accurred not only though lack of fighter escort as before the Mustang was made widely available to U.S. forces and the typhoon for the U.K. , but from flack. Early in the war the Germans had both more experienced pilots and facilities with air superiority over Europe, the Eastern front and W. Allied Bomber raids cost them air superiority over any one front. Thus, less pilots (+ well trained pilots), Less fuel, Less flack ammunition and guns, less favorable enemy AA/AAA positions. Less enemy period. Less important/dangerous raids. More civilian targets.

Top Scorer for TA????

Who had the most kills for the TA? Even though late in war, less well trained luftwaffe. Probably not that much though anyhow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk) 17:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EDITING PIRATE: SUBTLE CHANGES/LEFT-WING RACE BATING CONSPIRATOR?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ALERT EDITING PIRATE: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - SOMEONE IS CHANGING MY EDITS TO MAKE THEM SOUND BAD/RACIST??? WHEN CORRECTING SPELLING ERRORS I SAW THAT I THERE WAS AN EDITING CONFLICT MULTIPLE TIMES. HOWEVER, AFTERWARDS NOTHING APPEARED DIFFERENT? ONLY THROUGH REREADING AND CHECKING COULD I REALIZE THAT SOMEONE WAS EDITING MY COMMENTS SUBTLEY, MAKING THEM MORE GENERALIZED AND SEEMINGLY RACIST. Insert non-formatted text here

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