Talk:New York Yankees - Misplaced Pages

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A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on March 13, 2023.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the New York Yankees* were first named after a Scottish regiment?*
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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 18:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that the New York Yankees have the most championships in both Major League Baseball and major North American professional sports leagues? Source: USA Today and ESPN
- Reviewed: ]

Improved to Good Article status by LuK3 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC). Note: As of October 2022, all changes made to promoted hooks will be logged by a bot. The log for this nomination can be found at Template talk:Did you know nominations/New York Yankees, so please watch a successfully closed nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

The hook is strong.
The lead should be revised to carry the main ports needed for introduction and remove references per WP:Lead. Maybe the last paragraph could be merged or deleted.
I'd recommend removing common wikilinks like treasurer and repeated links like Yankees. I know there are different years but the wikilink makes look like the same. How about specifying the link like how movie links often offer the year?
Can there be a general reference for the section "Roster". No need for all.

That's all. It sure is a big article so making it GA should have been difficult. I'd recommend splitting big parts in the future to make it easier to navigate.Tintor2 (talk) 22:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I do feel that it'd be a missed opportunity to make such a herculean improvement and then make our hook the one thing that everyone probably knows about the team. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 00:58, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- No kidding. Gonna throw some options and ping LuK3 and Tintor. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 00:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that the New York Yankees grounds crew began dancing to "Y.M.C.A." after a team executive spotted fans doing the same during a spring training game?

ALT2: ... that Mike Royko described hating the New York Yankees as "as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"?

- Oops, that's Tintor2. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 00:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: I kinda approve ALT 1.Tintor2 (talk) 01:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with Tintor2 above. I could not find the Royko article where he says that quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:29, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the first hook is weak. Here's a couple more ALTs for consideration:

ALT3: ... that the New York Yankees were created from the remains of the Baltimore Orioles?

ALT4: ... that the New York Yankees were first named after a Scottish regiment?

And what about a picture? An article isn't really good without a good picture. Perhaps it could be a picture of Hilltop Park (right), with a hook about the Highlander name?

Andrew🐉(talk) 22:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Full review needed. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

ALT3: is a strong hook.

It had its readable prose expanded at least fivefold
"Articles must contain at least 1,500 characters of readable prose." This article passes such guideline. Still the size is kinda ridiculous I suggest again splitting it into subarticles to make it easier to nagivate.
It is also a good article.
It posses citations everywhere properly.
It's neutral and I can't see any copyright violation. If I missed something feel free to tell me. I'll say it again though. The article needs to be splitted into subarticles so that the weight it has doesn't make it hard to navigate.Tintor2 (talk) 20:57, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bruxton, Andrew Davidson, and Tintor2:, the hook says "that the New York Yankees were first named after a Scottish regiment", while the text says that "Fans believed the name was chosen because of the team's elevated location in Upper Manhattan, or as a nod to team president Joseph Gordon's Scottish-Irish heritage (the Gordon Highlanders were a well known Scottish military unit)." I think the hook should be tweaked or replaced as it is oversimplified: it changes "Fans believed" into a statement of fact and two alternatives into one. TSventon (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

The Highlanders name was taken from the regiment and is a triple play on words as it alludes to both the owner and the elevation. See Before They Were Yankees and History of the New York Yankees. Putting all the elements in the hook would be too complex as it's supposed to be a hook, not an elaborate explanation. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:29, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson and LuK3:, first, I will admit that I know little about baseball. I queried the hook as it should contain a fact from the article and be supported by an inline citation in the article (WP:DYKCRIT). The current wording of the article doesn't support the wording of the hook and nor does the following online reference, which says "The derivation of the team’s nickname is unsettled." I could not access Pinstripe Empire. The link you provided could support the hook, however medium.com is a blog site. Is Steven C. Owens a subject expert? TSventon (talk) 11:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson, Tintor2, and TSventon: I do dislike it when we make every hook as literal as possible. With that said, I would not be opposed to adding "Fans believed". I think if you want to add two team name options or any other information the hook will be ruined and definitely not quirky. As Andrew said adding elements makes a hook too complex. I put this in the quirky slot. Recently we had a quirky slot hook discussion where I thought our hook was an WP:EGG. Check out the hook we chose. ...that from the old Chicago Station, a 5 cent fare would get you as far west as California? - a person had to solve a puzzle to see that hook in the article. That Chicago station hook was not error reported as far as I know and the hook had 9,220 views. Bruxton (talk) 15:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm British and so quite like baseball history (it's a British game, doncha know). So, I happen to have a copy of the Cultural Encyclopedia of Baseball which I bought specifically for this kind of issue. Getting it out, I find that it has several pages about the Yankees including:

The Highlanders name supposedly was created when Joseph W. Gordon was appointed the first president of the team. At the time, there was a famous British regiment known as Gordon's Highlanders. In addition, the team played at the highest point in Manhattan, Washington Heights. ... There are several versions of how the name Yankees was adopted. The local Irish population objected to Highlanders because it was a Scottish nickname...

There's quite a bit more and I can perhaps expand the article using this source to confirm that the regiment usually comes into it.

Andrew🐉(talk) 17:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that works. Bruxton (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Changing the article text could work, @LuK3:, could you comment as GA and DYK nominator? TSventon (talk) 08:21, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for the long reply time. I have no objections to updating the article text to reflect the updated hook. I can try and do it sometime tonight or tomorrow. -- LuK3 (Talk) 23:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Lamb, Bill. "Joseph Gordon". Society for American Baseball Research. Archived from the original on March 19, 2022. Retrieved July 5, 2022.
Appel, Marty (2012). Pinstripe Empire: The New York Yankees From Before the Babe to After the Boss. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 9781608194926.

Splitting Baltimore Orioles into its own article (while keeping some information for background)

I want to preface my own personal disagreement with this, but per this very article, MLB, Baseball-Reference, and several other credible baseball sources, the 1901 Baltimore Orioles are not considered to be the same franchise as the 1903-present New York Yankees. The Orioles should have their own dedicated page located at the current redirect page here: Baltimore Orioles (1901–02). I'd personally split it myself, but I'm avoiding WP:BOLD since IMO, the scale of this move is maybe too big (even if the destination article itself may be small).

I figure some discussion should occur before anything is done.Spesh531 20:12, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Spesh, as someone who was the primary contributor for the Yankees history FA who could have to edit part of that article depending on how this goes, I'd like to kindly suggest that you bring this topic up at the baseball WikiProject. You're much more likely to get commentary quickly by mentioning it there than just having a split request here, and you'll also expose the topic to wider attention. I don't know if the project has a consensus on this issue, but if so that's the best way to find out, and to seek a change to the consensus. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm in favor of a split, being that I was the one who finally bit the bullet and reworked the article to reflect the position of the official historian of MLB and the team itself. Previous comments in the archives against such a split were based on incomplete understanding of the situation. LuK3, one of the most frequent contributors to this article in recent history, and I in a subsequent discussion tossed around the idea of a split, but neither of us have followed through. It's definitely time. The teams are officially separate, they should have a separate article. I'd just note that there's really nothing to take out of this article, though, as it's already a pretty minimal coverage of the background. oknazevad (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I just posted a pointer to this page's discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Baseball —— Shakescene (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I can't remember where, but an RFC was held on these matters (franchise relocations), about a year or more ago. GoodDay (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

That's the thing though, it's not a relocation. The 1901–02 Orioles failed midseason when the manager/part-owner bolted to the New York Giants, taking a bunch of players with him. The franchise was taken over by the league to pay out the string with layers loaned from other teams, and then folded and outright replaced with a new team in New York before the following season. It's not the same franchise, per the official historian of MLB.

Anyway, the major topic of the discussion referred to was what to name sub-articles about the historic periods of relocated franchises, ie, Brooklyn Dodgers vs History of the Brooklyn Dodgers. The latter had been in use, but the discussion came to the conclusion that shorter is better. So, taking that into account, a separate article for Baltimore Orioles (1901–1902) would be in line with that consensus. oknazevad (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Narrowly with regards to the article title, if this were to move forward, it should utilize four-digit years: Baltimore Orioles (1901–1902). Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:01, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

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