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Archives

Archive 1

Changes

I have started adding to this article. There will be a lot more edits to come, but I am out of time for today. This is still a work in progress, so please don't get too upset. Culture is a big issue and I provided an overview with the majority of information regarding the KMT Authoritarian Period. I know there are earlier influences, but this is the history of the polity which is still governing Taiwan. There is still a lot for you all to grouse about, but it is still in progress. Maowang 07:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok! So I've got a busy weekend, so I may be a couple of days. As you all can see... the plan is to expand this out to the listed subjects, with Bentuhus being larger as the history and contemporary movements in culture should be larger, then have a couple of good, strong paragraphs, for each subject with a link to a spin-off page, some already exist. Give me a few days.Maowang 00:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Still not done..please not mess too much right now...it will make things messy

Ordinary readers

The current lead paragraph is clearly not written for ordinary readers. It introduces unnecessary complexities into what should really be explained quite simply. Words and phrases like "discourse", "essentialism", "internal rhetoric" "socio-political and historical experience", etc, do not serve the ordinary reader and should not be in the lead paragraph. This is not an academic paper. See Culture of the United States and Culture of the United Kingdom for more accessible introductions. See Misplaced Pages:Lead section, especially the importance of accessibility.

I still have doubts about this "cultures" business. Even articles on declaredly multicultural countries like Australia or the United States don't use a plural for "culture". Given the article title, I might suggest that the singular is better in this context.

Inline references should be moved to footnotes for ease of reading. --Sumple (Talk) 04:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah me and Jiang have voiced our concerns too. Apparently this is a nice term paper but not too encyclopedic so far. Blueshirts 06:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a work in progress...I need space to work to get things lined up...then we can go from there. awright!

I had other people say the lede is the only quality part of this article. I have even tried to smooth it out to explain better. I was looking in the Misplaced Pages writing guide and they suggested not writing too simple either. The lede will give this article the strength to be stable. Give me a little space to work and I will solicit opinions later when there is more to compare it with. I would like to ask for your cooperation on this so we can make this a strong, useful page.Maowang 07:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC) The current lede has all the ingredients. It introduces the subject, explains the fundamentals, the conflicts and provides a definition. Maowang 08:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here's my proposed draft for the lead paragraph, working from the current version:

The culture of Taiwan is a hybrid blend of Confucianist Han Chinese cultures, Japanese, European, American, global, local and indigenous influences which are both interlocked and divided between perceptions of tradition and modernity (Harrell/Huang 1994:1–5) harvcol error: no target: CITEREFHarrell/Huang1994 (help). A common socio-political experience on Taiwan gradually developed into a sense of Taiwanese cultural identity and a feeling of Taiwanese cultural awareness, which has been widely debated domestically along the lines of its "authenticity" or "falsehood". (Yip 2004:230–248 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFYip2004 (help); Makeham 2005:2–8 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFMakeham2005 (help); Chang 2005:224 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFChang2005 (help)). The discourse on Taiwanese culture has periodically shifted between historical, political and ethnic frames in reaction to the essentialization of Taiwan's culture by competing political movements. Prior moves to define Taiwanese culture in concrete terms have, in recent years, given way to internal rhetoric of Taiwanese multiculturalism to replace the Taiwanese-Mainlander duality, which drove concepts of culture from a largely political point of view(Winckler 1994:23–41) harvcol error: no target: CITEREFWinckler1994 (help). The re-framing of Taiwanese cultures as the product of Taiwan's socio-political and historical experience has allowed for the inclusion of mainlanders and other minority groups into the continuing definition of Taiwanese culture as collectively held systems of meaning and customary patterns of thought and behavior

Proposed version:

The culture of Taiwan, though rooted in traditional, Confucianist, and Han Chinese culture, has been influenced significantly at various stages of its development by Japanese, American, and European cultures, and the impact of global, local and indigenous influences (Harrell/Huang 1994:1–5) harvcol error: no target: CITEREFHarrell/Huang1994 (help). The Aboriginal culture, especially, has been emphasised in recent years.

The common socio-political experience in Taiwan gradually developed into a sense of Taiwanese cultural identity and a feeling of Taiwanese cultural awareness, which has been widely debated domestically (Yip 2004:230–248 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFYip2004 (help); Makeham 2005:2–8 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFMakeham2005 (help); Chang 2005:224 harvcolnb error: no target: CITEREFChang2005 (help)). Reflecting the continuing controversy surrounding the political status of Taiwan, politics continues to play a role in conceptions of a cultural identity, especially in the conception of a Taiwanese-Mainlander duality. In recent years, a concept of Taiwanese multiculturalism has been proposed as a relatively apolitical alternative view(Winckler 1994:23–41) harvcol error: no target: CITEREFWinckler1994 (help).

I have tried my best to reframe the information in a form that would be comprehensible to the average reader (without a tertiary degree in sociology), without removing any substantive statement or source.

The key differences are threefold:

1. 1. Avoiding jargon - terms which ordinary readers would have no idea about are avoided as much as possible. Thus, things like "internal rhetoric" or "modernity" (in its specialist sense as used here) or "discourse" or "systems of meaning and customary patterns of thought and behavior" have been removed.
   2. Establishing context - for a reader who is somewhat unfamiliar with the subject matter, concepts should be introduced in a logical fashion, one at a time. Thus, the Taiwanese-Mainlander dichotomy is explained first, before the multiculturalism which is supposed to replace it.
   3. A shift away from emphasis on the study of Taiwanese culture (i.e. discussions on ways of framing or conceptualising Taiwanese culture) towards Taiwnaese culture per se, which is afterall the subject of the article. Thus, slightly less discussion on the minutiae of academic conceptions, and slightly more description of sources and influences.

This is meant to initiate discussion. I will move this into the article if there is a concensus for it. --Sumple (Talk) 02:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The body really discusses the formation of where it comes from and what shapes it. Just give it time. I am working hard on it

Well, WP:consensus. Discussion and collaboration produces the best work, hopefully. --Sumple (Talk) 07:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I made some changes per your requests, though the parts I left in are what I feel are integral to understanding the subject in a meaningful way. Each of the sets at the beginning will be discussed in the body and will give the reader a full understanding of how things fit together (it should be fun). Hybritity provides the NPOV understanding that does not give undue weight to a subject that can't be quantified and we avoid chauvinism, colonized writing and POV. The tail is the basic definition of "What is "c" culture?" to give us more room to work beyond the humanities version of "C" Culture which is currently in play. The "c" culture is the driving force behind "C" Culture.

好吧！？Maowang 08:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

STOP IT!

All you guys chasing each other around in an edit war, sometimes just to piss on the other guy, creating puppets, endless reverts, pointless name-calling...etc. Stop! Go somewhere else. Go to a Taiwan\China discussion forum on the internet or take it outside. I don't want to see it here anymore. Misplaced Pages does not have a Wiki-kids encyclopedia yet, so until then, don't contribute.

You guys chase each other all over wikipedia looking for a fight and then get all primed for conflict, so when a guy like me comes along to add quality information from quality sources, I have to put up with a bunch of impulsive, angry, POV people, who, because of conflict with someone I don't even know, or care to know, can't/won't cooperate. I am really beginning to think you all enjoy the fighting and perpetuate it. Would someone please take the high road?

This page has the potential to be a really great, really useful, really informative page...but that is not going to happen if you keep fighting. I am willing to put in the effort and make this happen and I want everyone to have a part in it, but this page will continue to be a nothing-waste-of-time for you and for me if you keep it up. How long have you spent getting nowhere on this? Could you use this time better?

I am looking to cooperate with people who can operate in good faith and are not looking to push any POV. I have a good background in this field and could lend a hand for good NPOV articles. I could be a good ally down the road for future cooperation, but I do not want to work in such a negative environment with suspicion over every edit.

Again,

Stop and breathe.....

Maowang 02:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Neither of you are adding anything substantive, and are clearly not taking the advice or counsel of the ArbCom to heart. -- Folic Acid 02:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree. I really like all the information Maowang put up there. Why don’t we just let him work on this article? He seems to know more about this topic than all of us.--Certified.Gangsta 01:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

A warning to Certified.Gangsta

You are continuing to make disruptive edits, blindly reverting others' edits. You are on revert parole, and if you persist in this behaviour you will be blocked *again*. --22:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, I was referring specifically to this edit, with edit summary "leave Maowang's source addition alone". Let the record show that what the edit actually achieved, quite contrary to the edit summary, was to:

• Reintroduce experiment line ]
• Revert my (referenced) edits to section "Religion" to the previous, unreferenced version.
• Revert my factual edit to the "Bubble tea" section, which had been to correct a factual inaccuracy.

None of the edits reverted by User:Certified.Gangsta disturbed any material added by Maowang, and especially did not delete any source added by Maowang. --Sumple (Talk) 06:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank's for the support Gangsta. But let's avoid the appearance of instabilty by looking for more creative ways to deal with edits than reverts. We're working, so it's ok. Since this is still a page under rennovation, I expect a lot of fluidity, so if I see an unacceptable edit to my contributions I will take up the matter. I know you mean well.Maowang 04:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Big Plan

Ok! I'm trying to make a solid plan to give the reader the different frames for viewing Taiwanese culture. These are broad topics that should be dealt with in overviews and then wiki off to their own page where, if they wish, the reader can gain more detailed info. The examples which made up the bulk of the old page are great examples that should have their own page as they are all results of the convergence of the larger issues. For example, you can't really expect a reader to understand Chinese contemporary film without knowing the background of say...the Socialist realism movement as the result of...

So the direction I am looking at for this page is:

KMT Authoritarian Cultural History

Bentuhua History

Economic Culture->Link(Page)

• Development
• Practice/Influence

Political Culture-> Link (Page)

• Overview
• Cultural Development and Traits

Religious Culture->Link (Page)

• Overview
• Contemporary

Cultural Change

Confucian Culture->Link (Page)

• Traditional
• Contemporary

Educational Culture->Link (Page)

• History
• System
• Culture Overview

Globalization->Link (Page)

Popular Culture Wiki off->

• Sports
• Food
• Cinema
• Etc...

feedback? Maowang 01:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. Can the two history sections be grouped under one level 2 heading, just for logical consistency? --Sumple (Talk) 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure!Maowang 04:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiproject Japan

People have argued project designation on this page should be cultural-base not politically-motivated. Given that Japanese culture has profound in Taiwan, why are people constantly removing the project while leaving WikiProject:China to stay? This is double standard (likely to be politically-motivated) and should not be tolerated.--Certified.Gangsta 07:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

... err... people? One person (you) is not "people", if what my primary school teacher taught us was true. Are you Japanese? Because the last time I checked Taiwan did not speak Japanese nor was it a part of Japan. --PalaceGuard008 01:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

At this point if an active member of WikiProject Japan (i.e., NOT GANGSTA) wants to claim this article, I would have no objection. It's quite obvious to me that Gangsta is engaged in WP:POINT. --Ideogram 07:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it'll be fine for this article to be part of WPJ, because the Taiwanese culture is in fact affected by the Japanese not only in the colonial period, but other times as well.--Jerry 19:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan was a colony of Japan until end of World War II; a lot of the older people in Taiwan can speak Japanese for that reason. Whether it should be considered part of WPJ, however, should be left to the decision of project members. - Penwhale |

Taiwan being a part of WPJ just because of Japanese cultural influence doesn't make much sense to me. By that logic, the U.S. should be part of WPJ (everyone in the States knows karaoke, sushi, and anime for starters) ... and just about every country in the world should be part of WP United States, for better or for worse. Save WikiProject designation for articles that are primarily associated with that Project's subject domain. CES 03:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see how this article can really fall under WPJ.MightyAtom 03:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary, either. The WPJ members are 0-3 on this one now. I think it's okay to remove the tag. Dekimasuよ! 03:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with CES, MightyAtom, and Dekimasuよ!. Oda Mari 05:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. India, Egypt, United States of America shouldn't be part of WikiProject Britain. Japan shouldn't be part of WikiProject America. The Land 20:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Enough.

Edit-warring isn't the way to go. On one side we have someone potentially gaming the 1RR parole, on the other side we have someone potentially baiting. If this continues, an admin will bound to block both parties for edit-warring. Start conversing. - Penwhale | 08:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

okay I was just reading a commentary by Stevan Harrell, who was quoted in the lead section regarding the nature of Taiwanese culture. His criticism of Hong and Murray (other researchers in the field I presume) is pretty scathing. In particular, Harrell says that Taiwanese culture is not the same as Chinese culture in the sense that is is not representative of China anymore than other regions (like Hebei...) are. He specifically wrote "we cannot say Taiwan is culturally anything but one variant of Chinese". Now this is different from what is quoted in the lead section. I'm not sure if it's taken out of the context or it's too general or unclear as it appears in the introduction of the book. Or maybe my understanding of double negative plus all but is incorrect. Blueshirts 18:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

anyone with an answer to my question a year ago? And I don't have the time and patience to deal with blanket revert of copyedit and addition of sourced information. Use the edit summaries, and please do not use sneaky removals and mark them up as minor edits. Any more edits in line of this will be treated as vandalism here on, especially from an editor involved on the same topic with his disruptive edits. See both: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Certified.Gangsta and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram. Blueshirts (talk) 08:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

warning to members of WP:China

Seeing my edits as disruptive is a testament to blueshirts as PalaceGuard008 (Sumple's sockpuppet)'s arrogant mindset and POV-pushing intent. More than a year ago, a neutral editor, Maowang, made a whole bunch of contributions with strong sources to this article. Since then, there has only been POV pushing from members of WP:China spreading Chinese propaganda and discreting Taiwan's unique culture. As plainly apparent in the talkpage, blueshirt has also been edit warring with Penwhale on this article, among others, which violate the spririt of WP:OWN. Future reverts from these 2 editors without discussion will be consider vandalism and reverted on sight.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 08:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Your past history has shown you to be an uncooperative, disruptive, and vandalizing editor. And please show evidence that I was edit warring with Penwhale, right on this page as you said. In addition, none of the editors I'm aware of, and certainly not me, were edit warring with Maowang, who did absolutely a great job with his sourced material, but hasn't replied to question regarding his citation in the lead paragraph. Now, please avoid more wikilawyering and throwing off loaded terms like WP:OWN and immediately stop blanket revertion of copyediting and addition of cited info. Blueshirts (talk) 08:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

And your involvement? Randomly calling established editor a troll is frankly dickish behavior. I suggest you read WP:DICK for your own benefit. And don't try to stalk me. It's harassment.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Certified.Gangsta (talk • contribs)

Okay, can you please enlighten us what does this diff show besides the fact that I put all your arguments into one paragraph, without changing one word, because you apparently don't know the markup for indentations? Blueshirts (talk) 09:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, if you think I'm a troll, boot me off the project. You and Sumple are just pissed off because Ideogram's sock got busted by me. You think I don't know y'all? The arbCom case pretty much got started because I busted RevolverOcelotX's sock farm, so y'all from WikiProject:China got pissed off because y'all are essentially using Ideogram and Lionheartx as bad-hand accounts to troll the project anyway.

Check out Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram/Evidence Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram for blueshirt and Sumple/PalaceGuard008's debating style. I'm still waiting for you to explain yours and PalaceGuard/Sumple's unilateral edits.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 08:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you sleep better, please request a checkuser on me, Palaceguard, and Ideogram. I am not really waiting for your excuse for blanket reversions of sourced additions and copyedits, because I know you won't say it's vandalism. And please show where I was edit warring with Penwhale and Maowang, as you made in your accusation. Blueshirts (talk) 09:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see my edits as vandalism either. The fact that you are undermining Prestyberian Church's effect on politics, toning down Chiang Kai-Shek and Chinese Nationalists brutality against ethnic Taiwanese, and undermining Taiwanese contemporary popular culture (the section was endorsed by maowang) is at best WP:GAME and at worse deliberate trolling. You know what I think of you. You know what you think of me. It is best we stay out of each other's editing scope. This page wasn't edited for over half a year until a few days ago. Then you and Sumple suddenly see the need to make POV-pushing edits just because I updated a few things. I don't know what to say. It looks like wiki-stalking, baiting, and being in dick (WP:DICK). I'm trying to assume good faith here, but I'm having problems doing that if you don't start explaining your edits to the article. I'm not a mind reader but note that one can be a dick without the subjective intention of being a dick. Keep that in mind. You're in danger of committing dickish behavior either deliberately or subconsciously.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 09:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

As for your suggestion about checkuser, I don't think it would be accepted so it's pointless. I never accused all 3 of you as the same person. But there is a concerted effort to boot me off the project by quite a few people, most of them Ideogram's blind supporters. My point was that you like Ideogram's and Lionheartx's Chinese propaganda edits and edit warring/stalking style, so you can achieve what you want without actually getting into the middle of it yourself, essentially using Ideogram as a bad-hand account. That's all I'm saying.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 09:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

You have not explained any of your blanket reversions of sourced statements and copyedits and I am frankly tired of repeating the same question with the same simple wording. Also you have not pointed out where I was edit warring with penwhale and maowang. Adding a couple more paragraphs straying from the main point is not really helping you much. Blueshirts (talk) 09:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have to explain anything until you start explaining your unilateral changes, which I removed, then you edited back.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 10:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta, it would be more productive if you discussed content issues in good faith instead of 1) blank reverting substantive edits and 2) making wild and baseless accusations of other editors. No one really cares who you dislike, but if you have a comment to contribute about the content of the article, this is the place to post it in. If you have nothing to contribute on the content of the article, then please refrain from touching the revert button. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Suppression of Taiwanese nationalism

Why is the statement that the KMT suppressed Taiwanese nationalism being deleted? Readin (talk) 06:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a cite for it? The sentence, even if true, was in the wrong context. There was no such thing as "Taiwanese nationalism" in the 1940s to 1950s. It was a Taiwan autonomy movement coupled with a pro-Communist, anti-Kuomintang movement. It wasn't until the 1980s and 1990s that a Taiwanese "nationalism" arose in any significant way. This was the time when the CPC turned from supporting and sponsoring the DPP to gradually turning against it and towards the KMT. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Parties' cultural identifications

When saying that the election of the DPP is an important step in localization, it helps to point out that this is because the KMT was a Chinese party (to what extent is still is can be debated, but its origins are certainly Chinese and many of its members consider themselves Chinese) while the DPP is a Taiwanese party. Readin (talk) 06:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is very misleading. Most of the KMT members, their elected officials, and their voters are not mainlanders, who only make up a small proportion of the population of Taiwan. The party itself has undergone many reforms to re-invent itself as a native Taiwanese party. In addition, the presidential election in 2000 is rather late to be labeled a turning point in localization. First of all, the 2000 election was not the first sweeping election that the DPP captured. They did that in the 1990s and early 2000s when they defeated the KMT in legislative, county and many other local elections. The cultural scene has already made huge transformations way before the 2000 election. It was not an important step in localization in the cultural sense. Blueshirts (talk) 06:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

KMT's view of localization

"While both major political parties, the KMT and the DPP, are generally supportive of localisation, the DPP made localisation a key plank in its political platform". How has the the KMT been "generally supportive of localisation"? Readin (talk) 06:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The main issue here is the time frame. The KMT has been pro-localization since the 1980s, or even earlier when the KMT gave up retaking the mainland and when Chiang Ching-kuo stated that he was also a "Taiwanese" and began promoting native Taiwanese people to high party ranks, including Lee Teng-hui, Lin Yang-kang, and a whole bunch of others. It would be incredibly misleading to simply label the KMT as "pro-China" or anti-localization without giving a time frame, especially when most of the KMT members and their constituents are native Taiwanese and many of whom hold high ranks of the KMT hierarchy. I believe the sentence itself is rather extraneous and it does not clearly state the fact that the issue of localization and which party is "more native" has been used mainly for political opponents to smear each other. Blueshirts (talk) 06:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I inserted the sentence to balance out the previous content which seemed to simplistically label the KMT as pro-China and anti-localisation, and the DPP as the sole and unalloyed champion of localisation. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The timeline needs to be clarified then. The fact that it was mainly KMT and other pan-blue parties that opposed renaming attempts, putting "Taiwan" on passports, and other localization measures should not be ignored.

I question Blueshirts's timeline. Chiang Ching-kuo may have stated he was also Taiwanese, but what evidence is there that his sentiments were shared by the rest of the party. Lee Teng-hui is a particularly bad example of KMT embracing localization as he was expelled from the party. If I remember correctly, wasn't Ma's position during the campaign that he didn't really care one way or the other about localization issues like renaming organizations? That hardly sounds like "generally supporting". Readin (talk) 14:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny, I finished writing the above and went to read the Taipei Times. Look what I found ‘Taiwan Post’ sent into history

Asked for comment, Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Kuo Su-chun (郭素春) said it was “reasonable” for the company to change its name back now that the KMT was in power.

Anyone want to guess which party's representatives prevented the name change from being approved by the legislature? I doubt it was the DPP.

Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Legislator Yeh Yi-ching (葉宜津) told a press conference that “few people outside Taiwan know where letters with the Chunghwa Post postmark are from.”

DPP caucus whip Chang Hwa-kuan (張花冠) said it was ridiculous for “the post company to spend NT$20 million to diminish ‘Taiwan’ and reinstate ‘Chunghwa.’”

Readin (talk) 14:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

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