Misplaced Pages

I find this argument above quite compelling, and would request the Turkish users' response on the issue, before I remove the irrelevant subset referring to "workers". Employment is not more of an excuse than any other reason for settling either way. NikoSilver 23:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The rest of that page indicates that Mr. Mercan is referring to a third-party report prepared by foreign researchers, and his wording may simply be reflecting those found in that reports (which are described as "containing facts but also in need of a major revision"). I think it would be better to aim at correctly clarifying the whole settler/worker/immigrant issue by locating sources to get some specifics about the Turkish population coming from mainland Turkey rather than go "word hunting" through the internet. Take care--Xasf 00:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to recapitulate, we have immigrants, gastarbeiter, settlers...? It seems unfortunate that, due to its isolation, very little is known about Northern Cyprus and much misunderstanding is generated. (On a personal note: Since April 2004, the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community seems, in a crazy sort of way, as tragic as the isolation of the Istanbul Greeks). Politis 00:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. Greeks of Istanbul have valid passports - they can go to any country they want, either for tourism or work, as long as they have a visa just like other Turkish citizens - It is also hard for many Turks to get a visa too. They do not have to route their flights from Greece either. Plus they live in a city that has a population greater than many countries in the EU, a city which has every single organization/building/institution that would be needed to run even a country, economically, culturally and socially. They are not isolated :) Baristarim 09:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Baris Turkish Cypriots are not isolated either. They are citizens of the Republic of Cyprus and can go in any European Country or elsewhere they wish to. Heres a note directly from the EU : "In light of Protocol 10 of the Accession Treaty 2003 Cyprus as a whole entered the EU, whereas the acquis is suspended in the northern part of the island (“areas not under effective control of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus”). This means inter alia that these areas are outside the customs and fiscal territory of the EU. The suspension has territorial effect, but does not concern the personal rights of Turkish Cypriots as EU citizens, as they are considered as citizens of the Member State Republic of Cyprus".

But the issue at hand is slightly different, as Xasf mentioned above we have Mr. Mercan referring to a third-party report prepared by foreign researchers (third party...) referring to colonisation by Turkish settlers... Who can dick up those reports and see whether the reports have been reviewed?  :) Aristovoul0s 18:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Nhahaha :) You can't tell people what country they are a citizen of aristos. If they choose to, then fine - if not then we have to respect that as well. You should also read some opinions about the legal ramifications about the rejection of the referendum by the Greek Cypriots, by the way. In the future, it can easily be considered as a case of "loss of right to sovereignty"

EU doesn't make international law by the way. It is an entity just like others. Let me give you an example, legally, why all those statements of the European Union that you quoted is nothing but hypocricy, bullshit and political manouevring that has absolutely no legal basis:

• There are various schools of thoughts as to how a "state" is formed:
  • constitutive theory,
  • declarative theory,
• Constitutive theory is outdated, and is not accepted as a criteria as far as the creation of a state is concerned. And most importantly, it is not codified in international law.
• Declarative theory has at least one incidence of being subject to a international treaty: Montevideo Convention
  • A state is this: " territory+people on that territory+an entity who disposes the right of "legitimate force" (as a legal term) and whose de-facto authority extends over that territory and people on that territory" - recognition is not necessary. Recognition only concerns third parties that would like/not like to enter into relations with that state.
• EU hasn't signed it; however, in one of its committees, it has adopted this resolution in line with the spirit of that convention:

the state is commonly defined as a community which consists of a territory and a population subject to an organized political authority; that such a state is characterized by sovereignty" and that "the effects of recognition by other states are purely declaratory

- (Check that link as to why it can be easily considered that Cyprus has lost its right to sovereignty over the north; thank that Turkey is trying to enter the EU, otherwise TRNC would have made stronger moves to become a truly independent state - I will actually try to find legal opinions about this as well)

• Therefore, that EU declaration contradicts the findings of one of its own commisions on Yugoslavia, ergo - it is nothing but a scrap of political toilet paper written just to pay lip service to Papadopoulos. Again, EU doesn't mean jack s..., it is a political entity that doesn't have the capacity to make international law. Just because it considers the citizens of TRNC as citizens of RoC doesn't make it so.

Don't make me dig up more legal stuff, I argue about law enough in my real life :) However, now that this issue is getting heated up again, I will try to dig a lot more legal and academic sources as to why we will never have "illegal" or something else in the intro. I will also try to prepare a section on the international status of TRNC with regards to intl law. UN resolutions from 25 years ago don't mean anything in the light of the developments of since then. Baristarim 19:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

This one also gives a nice summary of the TRNC/Turkey subject , as well as basic principals of international statehood recognition (it refers to "it" as Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus btw)

• Moreover, TRNC was never declared to be illegal - its declaration of independence was considered to be "legally invalid" - there is a great difference. Therefore, as a state, it has a right to grant citizenship to whoever it sees fit.

• TRNC, legally, is an "unrecognized state" - it is not "illegal" nor is it "pseudo" or I don't know what. Even though the international law doesn't allow the creation of internationally recognized states except in two cases (which do not cover the case of TRNC), a third case could also be applied: the recent jurisprudence established by the report on Kosovo by the UN that establishes the criteria for the "loss of right to sovereignty" can easily be applied to TRNC - armed conflict followed by the seccession in the aftermath of foreign armed intervention to stop the conflict (which Turkey had a legitimate legal right to do per its guarantor powers). As I said, Cyprus should be thankful that Turkey is trying to enter the EU, otherwise there would be no chance in hell that TRNC would not become a independent state one day. TRNC has a much stronger case than some people think actually. Just my two cents :) Baristarim 19:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Baristarim, you gave us a few POV stuff, but what's a bit of POV between friends :-?. Now this is what you gave us (based on the links you provided):

The 1991 Badinter Arbitration Committee gave an opinion. That was all.

As for the Montevideo Convention and the entry in the encyclopaedia britannica, we read that, "International law has been quite adamant in proclaiming the sanctity of post-World War II national borders, and in censuring attempts at secession in instances such as Katanga, Biafara and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus".

Finally, you said that the TRNC "has a right to grant citizenship", but which countries accept those documents for legal entry for the purposes of tourism, business or work, into their territory? If there are any (other than Turkey), they should appear in the main article.

As for the EU being hypocritical, etc... people who live in glass houses should not throw stones (this applies also to the ROC authorities). The EU does not make international laws, but it certainly sets its own laws, criteria and standards and by which other entities have to abide. The ROC is seriously abusing this state of affairs to the detriment of the Turkish Chypriots, but it is its right to do so :-( Politis 20:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

lol.. How can we get along without some POV? :) The thing I am trying to point is that TRNC is a state, it has seceded, its declaration of independence has been considered as "legally invalid" since it doesn't conform to the criteria established in intl law for the intl recognition of states, however - as a state, it still retains the state prerogatives. The EU declaration on the citizenship of TRNC "citizens" cannot be considered as an authority because in the eyes of the TRNC, those people are its citizens. The point is, EU is not even a state and therefore can't decide who is whose citizen. It has a right to consider them as not being "valid" for itself - however not illegal. Recognition only implies a willingness to deal/not deal with a state and is not required for a state to be sovereign. It just is if it is - a state by definition is sovereign over a defined people living on a defined territory. The article is attaching too much importance to the opinion of the international community IMO.

In any case, I need to find some better references specific to the TRNC's current situation in its relationship to Cyprus. Some of my comments were not directly related to the article in the sense that the legal status of TRNC is still a theoratical one that is open to a big variety of interpretations. The new jurisprudence of Kosovo is also important, but again it is also fuzzy in what exactly it would be imply for TRNC.

However, there needs to be a distinction between the legality of Turkey's actions and those of the TRNC. Even if Turkey's military presence is disputed, that only concerns Turkey, not TRNC as an entity since they are two different states.

ROC of course has the right to act as it sees fit, can say nothing about that.

I will try to get back to this later, I am just too tired :) Baristarim 20:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Things aren't as clear-cut as that, of course. In fact, the legal confusion has served the Turkish Cypriots well. They want their Cypriot citizenship and EU passports issued by the Republic of Cyprus, but at the same time will not abandon their separatist project in the north. At some point, they're going to have to decide what is more important to them. Those who place the sanctity of the "TRNC" and their Turkishness über Alles should be stripped of their Cypriot citizenship, and with it, the right to move freely in Europe. They can't have it both ways. Possessing the "citizenship" of the "TRNC" is a direct denial of the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 03:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you will the find the majority of Turkish Cypriots were more than willing to dissolve the TRNC in favour of a United Cyprus via the Annan plan. If anyone wants its both ways it is the Greek Cypriot administration. They want to avoid any United Nations peace settlement and at the same time demand Turkish Cypriots abandon their state and join them. As for violating the sovereignty of the RoC, Makarios did that in 63 with his 13 amendments, Grivas did that when he attacked Turkish Cypriots villages in 64, Greece did that when she sent 20,000 soldiers in 64 against Turkish Cypriots and military junta did that again in 74 when they tried to annex the island. So please excuse Turkish Cypriots if we hesistate to accept the sovereignty of Greek Cypriots over us. --A.Garnet 12:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Somebody bring out the violins... Meanwhile, in the here and now, supporting the continued existence of the "TRNC" while at the same time applying for a Cypriot passport in order to reap the benefits of EU accession (to which Turkish Cypriots did not contribute one iota) is hypocrisy, pure and simple. The citizenship of any state entails certain responsibilities towards that state, not just rights. I would have more respect for Turkish Cypriots if they boycotted the Republic of Cyprus entirely, rejecting the "Greek" passports, electricity and pensions still handed out to them freely despite their openly hostile attitude towards the evil gavurlar. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Turkish Cypriots voted for reunification, that is the majority of them do not support the continued existence of the TRNC in its current state, if a referendum cannot prove that you i dont know what can. 2. Citizenship is a two way affair, loyalty derives from the ability of the state to look after its citizens interests. Between 63-74 the RoC looked after only Greek Cypriot interests, and under the leadership of Tassos Papadopolous, it is effectively a Greek state. 3. You do not provide free electricity, we pay for it. 4. Do not confuse the fanaticism harboured by Greek and Greek Cypriots against Turks to be reciprocal. The Turkish Cypriot curriculum has even abandoned the Cyprus conflict as part of its history, the south however continues to teach the same hate filled propopanda.--A.Garnet 17:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Cypriots voted for a plan which heavily favoured their interests to the detriment of those of the Greek Cypriots. The result would have been very different if the plan ordered the immediate and total withdrawal of the Turkish occupation forces and the unhindered right of return for Greek refugees. If the Republic of Cyprus is "effectively a Greek state", why do you continue to seek the benefits of Cypriot citizenship? Perhaps it isn't Greek enough, if Turks are still travelling to Europe with "Greek" passports. I don't see how the "Greek Administration of Southern Cyprus" is any more Greek now than it was under Clerides. Finally, the Republic of Cyprus has provided electricity to the occupied territories for decades and not received a cent in compensation. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well now i know the scope of your knowledge on Cyprus probably stretches to reading Simerini online. Turkish Cypriots have paid millions of dollars to the South for use of their electricity. Luckily when i was in Cyprus over the New Year four new generators were delivered to the TRNC from Finland, so Tassos can keep his "free" electricity. --A.Garnet 19:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

As for the few thousand Turkish Cypriots who have gained a roc passport, what do you expect? Turkish Cypriots want the benefits of EU membership and they have been denied them by the Greek Cypriot who were effectively given a blank cheque to vote how they wanted on the referendum. We did not have such a luxury. For TC's now, especially the youth, gaining a roc passport is the only means of improving their lfie. This is the thing with you people, we vote for reunification it means nothing, we force Denktas to resign it means nothing, we bring in Talat and Papadopolous does not even meet him for two years! We become roc citizens and we are called hypocrites. What do you people want, blood? Finally, on the Annan plan, please spare the garbage fed by the nationalists. This plan didnt fall from the sky, Papadopolous put his pen to paper the entire way, that is why when he suddenly announced to Greek Cypriots to reject the plan, the EU enlargement commisioner said he felt cheated by Tassos. Like it or not, Annan plan is going to be the basis of any solution, and in that solution there will be two states, because that is what GC's have agreed on for the past 30 years. There will be no unhindered right of return, if you want that then do expect to be taken seriosly about reaching a solution. --A.Garnet 19:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice. You all forgot to mention that the Annan plan in its wisdom foresaw that 18% of the population should hold 50% of the government. No wonder why the rest 80% or so (GCs) flunked it (and why the TCs accepted it)... NikoSilver 21:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

More distorted nonsense. Senate would be 50/50 yes, but Chamber of deputies would allow for 75% GC makeup and Presidential Council 4 GC and 2 TC representatives. Senate would ensure no community pass law detrimental to the other, but Chamber of Deputies would reflect numerical majority. --A.Garnet 21:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. NikoSilver 22:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You also forgot the Supreme court. Check why the 50-50 in both Senate and Supreme court is bad here. NikoSilver 22:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to your content as distorted nonsense. What on earth does "The majority becomes minority in important decision centers" mean on the Annan plan article? The supreme could court would vote by simple majority, if there is a deadlock, a panel of non-Cypriot judges would have the final say. What is wrong with this? You are also forgetting Niko, that the 1960 roc was found on the basis of equal partnership between GC and TC, not on one of numerical majority and this will be reflected in any solution. --A.Garnet 22:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

How is this compatible with that:

Many Greek Cypriots opposed the plan as it meant endorsing a confederal state with a weak central government and considerable local autonomy, rather than the pre-1974 status quo ante of Greek Cypriot majority rule over a minority Turkish population. It would also have left Greeks dispossessed of their homes in 1974 without financial redress or the return of their property. The plan would have cemented the division of Cyprus into two political entities and safeguarded the presence of settlers from mainland Turkey, both of which were felt to be illegitimate and unfair outcomes. Any solution other than a return to the status quo ante was deemed unacceptable by many Greek Cypriots, and opinion polls conducted over the entire period of the negotiations from start to finish had always shown around 80% opposition to the proposals.

Status quo ante appears to be different there. I think we need sources here... NikoSilver 22:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It maybe be somehow irrelevant, but a panel of non-Cypriot judges had the final say in another case... Asking all the time neutral judges, but never implement their verdicts, doesn't seem logical to me. Hectorian 23:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly Hectorian, your right that is quite irrelevant. I dont see what Turkey asks from the ECHR has to do with the 1960 Republic of Cyprus constitution. Niko, what is written in that article is wrong, or deliberately chooses to leave out important clarifications. The 1960 roc was was unitary, one state one government, but it was founded on a principle of equal partnership. That is why Fazil Kucuk and Makarios signed the treaty of Zurich in 1959, that is why TC was always Vice President and had important veto, that is why all institutions of the state were divided on Turkish/Greek ethnic lines on 70/30 ratio, why Greek and Turkish were official language, why each community had own communal chambers etc etc. It was as David Hanny wrote (and since you want a source) "best be described as bi-communal but unitary state" (hannay, cyprus: search for solution, p.28). That is why from the 1970's onwards the Greek Cypriot administration agreed that a Bizonal, Bicommunal, Federated state (BBF) would be the solution to the Cyprus problem, abandoning any chance of full right of return for refugees, or a return to the status quo.

There was never, and never will be simple majority rule without safeguards for the Turkish Cypriot community. The violence of the 60's and 70's appropriately demonstrates why. That is why i dont like clever dick remarks on the Annan plan by people who have a vague knowledge of what happened in Cyprus and what is happening today. --A.Garnet 00:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Your insistence that Greeks should be the only people whose freedom of movement is permanently restricted in the European Union in the 21st century, on the basis of their ethnicity alone, is the main obstacle to a solution. Why should Greeks accept a plan that restricts their right to return to their own homes? As for the poor Turkish Cypriots not having the "luxury" of rejecting the citizenship of a state they detest, I say they would garner more respect if they suffered a bit for their racist ideology of ethnic purity. I would start by stripping you of your Cypriot passport; being a Turk is more important to you, after all, so perhaps it's time you start travelling on your Turkish "passport" and see how far you get. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 02:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact, Garnet, when i was posting my comment i was thinking that it is somehow irrelevant... But after searching and reading a bit, i realized that it is not that irrelevant after all... The Loizidou case is linked with the Greek Cypriot rejection of the Annan Plan. Isn't that right that, had the GCs votes for 'yes', this case and all similar cases that would ever arise, would be outlawed, both in Cyprus and the EU? wouldn't a positive vote to that undemocratic plan never give them the chance to claim back their properties and to return to their homeland? the "plan" gave full return rights for the TCs, but not for the GCs... is this democratic? as for your newly-coined sense of "democracy" (id est giving to the 18% of the population equal electoral and governmental power with the 78%, with 2 federal states and 50-50 chamber members), how about that: would ever Turkey accept to share power with the Kurds? they form the 15% of Turkey, so, let them elect the 50% of the members of the Turkish parliament, and let the PM of Turkey be Kurd, since the President, head of state, shall be Turk - if parliamentary-presidential democracies mix things up, lets change the Turkish political system into the later, since the Annan Plan also wanted to change the Cypriot political system... Really, have u seen any country in the world that changes its president every 2.5 years and that in official meetings the presidents of its subnational entities should be both present? lol It would be laughable is the chancellors of the 16 German Landers would travel all together for an EU summit:). do not ask to be done for Cyprus things that have no chance to succeed in any other country... Do me a favor and see, if u can, the history of the Annan plans, from the first till the last (which, according to the agreement made in the beginning, should not be modified, but presented to the Cypriots to vote in a referendum). U will see that each new was worst (for the GCs) than the previous. After all, the GC people voted for no, and noone can blame then for the fact that they did not like it... The best someone can do is to understand why they didn't like it. I can understand why the TCs voted for yes, and, perhaps, if they did not have 40,000 troops over them, they would had made further steps towards a solution. Hectorian 03:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

See Belgium and Switzerland - democracy doesn't mean the rule of the jungle; seemingly "anti-democratic" measures can be taken to assure the democracy in the long run. They are particularly common in small states. Frankly, it would be much simpler and save everyone a whole lot of headache if both Greece and Turkey directly annexed the Greek and Turkish parts of it respectively :) Again, that's my personal opinion, I just don't like the idea of small or micro states. Btw, Turkey already had presidents of Kurdish descent, the analogy is not correct. Nobody is stopping Kurds in Turkey from running from office, traveling, working, having a valid passport etc. Don't forget that Turks in France can't run for political office without being proficient in French either. Turkey is not the big daddy of -ification you know :) Baristarim 07:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

And there are Turkish nationalists who think Turkey should annex Greece for the same reason; that argument can hardly be taken seriously. The Cypriots have come to take pride in their distinct statehood, whatever their ethnic loyalties. Their democratic right to live in their own state and to vote any way they see fit in a referendum, however powerful its international sponsors, must be respected by all. 2004 was the first time the Cypriots' opinion about their own future was ever taken into account, after centuries of bullying by outsiders. Good on them for finally giving those outsiders the proverbial middle finger. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

lol. It was not a serious comment to begin with - I was just musing :) It is true that Cyprus has been kicked around like a football by lots of great powers. Britain did it share of kicking around too back in the day, but their kicking was not only confined to Cyprus, unfortunately. What can you do? I definetely agree that they should decide what they want to with their future though. Baristarim 07:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

And that's what they're doing, at long last. The withdrawal of all foreign forces would certainly help the process. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Baris, I know about Belgium and Switzerland and I had the later in mind when posting "2.5 years presidency", but the examples are not the best... These states have 1 president/1 king and 1 PM each. It is only Verhofstadt who represents Belgium in meetings with other leaders. The seats of the members of the Belgian Chamber of People's Representatives are proportional to the provinces' population (and currently the members are 88 Dutch-speaking and 62 French-speaking, almost the same as the 60%-40% respectively of the population strength of each); same thing happens in the Belgian Senate. also, for at least the past 35 years, the Belgian PM is always Dutch-speaking (not cause of any stupid law, but cause of simple democratic procedures). On the other hand, Switzerland is a direct democracy and its Federal Council is not divided along ethnic, linguistic or religious lines, but simply according to people's vote. Small state or microstate or whatever, Cyprus should not be treated differently than the other countries. I know that Turkey had Presidents of Kurdish ancestry (Inonu and Ozal are those i can remember), but none of them ever dared to speak Kurdish in the parliament or to say that is not a Turk (note: not to say that is not a Turkish citizen). To my knowledge, the Kurds of Turkey have all rights, as long as they do not say they are Kurds, as long as they do not claim autonomy or independence, linguistic or minority rights... My comparison above was completely different in its base:). Neither in France nor in any other country can anyone run for President or PM without proficiency in the official language (and some states have limitation laws, e.g. there can never be a Catholic PM in Britain, and the Greek President must always be Orthodox). But the Annan Plan had no chance to be accepted, and it is a shame that the word canton was used in it. I think that the annexation of the two parts by Greece and Turkey, that u said above, had been proposed in the past, but also could never be accepted... IMO, if Cypriots want to be independent, they should be. if other states would also be willing to lose some of their territory and their population to be deprived of its property in its own land, this would be fine; but still, in that case, Turkey should annex the 18%, not the 37%! and the British bases should get the hell out of there, since the only thing they guarantee is the eternal british involvement in the Middle East... Hectorian 14:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Stop 'cleansing' the article, argument (usually) works best

Will the anonymous, User: 213.149.169.173, please, please stop 'cleansing' the article; that is no way to erase anyting on wikipedia. Thanks. Politis 19:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I blocked him/her for 31 hours. Khoikhoi 19:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The ethnic %

I read resently that about 1.0% of all North Cipriots and 1.5% South Cipriots were ether British (ex-pats), Malties and/or Italians. --Lilidor 17:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

TRNC without any ""

For those interested in including this information, 3 members of of the British parliament Politis 18:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC):

House Of Commons (UK parliament)

MISS YONCA SENYIGIT - 07-01-17

18:12:06

Sir Nicholas Winterton Ann Winterton Ben Chapman * 3

:That this House warmly welcomes the appointment of Miss Yonca Senyigit as the London Representative of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, and wishes her every success in her new appointment; and in particular wishes her success in securing the lifting of restrictions on trade and communications with Northern Cyprus, mindful that on 18th May 2004, the UK Prime Minister said `I think it is important... that we end the isolation of Northern Cyprus... that means lifting the embargoes in respect of trade and in respect of air travel' and mindful of the UN Secretary-General's opinion that the Turkish Cypriot vote (for the Annan Plan) has undone any rationale for pressuring and isolating that community.

It was a good article for about 3 days

For a few days this article read very well and was as close to balanced and neutral as its ever been since the Nationalists got hold of it. Since then we have Aristovoulus claiming that Makatrios's changes to the constitution were the maintain order (man I dont know WHAT you are smoking) and the arrival of a new Sock Puppet Thurium (or something)...a new user with a two day old account that jumps straight into the Hellenic arguments and adds 'Turkish sources say' to make this article, once again, not worthy of being on Misplaced Pages. Disgusting behavior all around from those two users. I would edit things but I have better things to do than lower myself to their level. Adam777 01:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I made the edit anyway...disgraceful behavior people, so which one of you is the sock puppet? Adam777 01:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thulium is a sockpuppet

Can an admin look at the IP information for user Thulium. In 2 days this user has jumped immediately into specific controversial articles (TRNC, Pontian Genocide) and shown a sophisticated knowledge of the ongoing disputes and a knowledge of the use of Misplaced Pages that a new user would not have in such a short time. The offending accounts should be blocked. Adam777 11:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Adam, nothing of what you mention above is an offence per WP:SOCK, unless the user uses two accounts simultaneously. Any user has the right to vanish and re-appear. Do you have such evidence? NikoSilver 12:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ermm yeah... As far as I see he doesn't claim anything. He is just suspicious and just asks for a check Ombudsee 12:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd have no problem in a checkuser, but IMO "Thulium is a sockpuppet" and this edit summary don't exactly go along with "he doesn't claim anything". NikoSilver 13:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Does the "user" use two accounts simultaneously though? We wont know until a check has taken place. It is very unlikely that a user with a two day old account just stumbled into the articles he has taken it upon himself to add NPOV edits into. An IP check would give more information. Adam777 14:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that CheckUser is not for fishing. If you say that "he is probably someone else and I would like to find out who that is", your request for CheckUser will in all likelihood be rejected. Aecis 14:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I would disagree that it is fishing as the user in question has chosen a very specific list of articles being used to promote a nationalist agenda with certain editors. I could throw names out there but those would be 'best guesses' on my part and nothing more. Providing the user restrains from POV edits then no harm no foul I suppose. Adam777 14:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be fishing, because you would not provide the name of the account against which to check Thulium. Also please read the criteria for CheckUser. There are six cases in which a CheckUser may be requested:

1. "blatant vandalism and attack accounts" - A content dispute is not vandalism

2. "Evasion of bans or other remedies issued by the arbitration committee" - The ArbCom case has not dealt with this article, or any of its users afaik

3. "Ongoing, serious pattern vandalism" - See 1.

4. "Vote fraud for a closed vote where the possible sockpuppet votes affect the outcome" - No AFD has occurred.

5. "3RR violation using socks" - No users have been blocked for 3RR over this article recently.

6. "Evasion of community-based bans or blocks" - No users involved in this article have been banned or blocked.

Aecis 14:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

History

I think history section is not well-written. Especially the intro of it. I think it should be written in a language that can appeal also to the people that are not familiar with it. It lacks the basic info and even a simple chronology about the events, but directly starts from the middle of a debate-like structure. Ombudsee 12:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I see our rabid hellenic nationalists were not happy with the article as it was an had to keep pushing their hate filled agenda. That intro to the history section is a joke as is any claim that Makarios was acting for TC best interests when he attempted to usurp the constitution. Honestly I don't know how some of you can function with so much hatred to contend with. Adam777 14:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Adam777 is a sockpuppet

Can an admin look at the IP information for user Adam777. In 2 days this user has jumped immediately into specific controversial articles (TRNC) and shown a sophisticated knowledge of the ongoing disputes and a knowledge of the use of Misplaced Pages that a new user would not have in such a short time. He also falsifies sources and represses the origin of the falsified sources (e.g. he hides the fact that a particular source is Turkish and says it says something the source never said, e.g. something about Qatar when the source in question doesn't even mention Qatar). The offending accounts should be blocked. Thulium 12:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Adam777 has been with us since February 2006, and first edited this article in July 2006. Aecis 12:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I had been suspecting that what I regarded as Adam's strong pro-Turkish POV, which was manifested numerous times IMO (numerous diffs on request), was a strong indication that he may be a sockpuppet too. I cannot back this up right now, and I am not accusing anyone. However, on the present content dispute, I have to agree with Thulium. The {{failed verification}} tag is more than appropriate, and the claim inside the article must definitely reflect that it derives from Turkish sources. NikoSilver 13:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In all fairness, even the Greek media have reported that some Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan and Pakistan have been making noises towards recognition. Who cares, really? It would hardly confer any more legitimacy on the pseudostate in the eyes of the "international community". Let them eat cake. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly my point Kekrops. The interpretation that these moves constitute "gestures towards recognition" is Turkish-POV. Mentioning the visits etc themselves is NPOV, but claiming that they are "steps" or "gestures" or "indications" towards recognition is an entirely different approach, which I am sure that WP:INDY sources do not exactly endorse. NikoSilver 13:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Uhm... I guess I'll be the mediator once more :) Well my personal opinion is to remove it completely from the article, since it sounds more like a press comment than a solid fact. But I read the article in Today's Zaman and except that it doesn't say anything about Qatar, it mentions about Pakistan and Gambia. I think we can remove Qatar and the facts tag if we don't get rid of that completely. Regards, Ombudsee 13:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the removal, unless of course a reliable source can be presented that backs up the (currently WP:OR) interpretation that those visits are "gestures towards recognition". Qatar and whatever other visits/exchanges of gifts/welcome parties are minor IMO. NikoSilver 13:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with a removal. The original entry was changed to 'Turkish Sources' from 'Sources' which is NPOV in my mind. As for me being a sockpuppet Nico, get a life pal, look though my edit summaries. My issue with on this article is with rabid greek nationalists (or indeed nationalists of any origin) distorting reality. If I'm a sockpuppet then I've been around for quite some time and my puppetry is being used to make NPOV edits on a variety of subjects well removed from Turkish/Greek conflicts in Cyprus. Niko I used to hold you in high regard but you seem to let the more rabid of your peers influence your judgement. Adam777 14:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Please check the tense that I used in my previous comment. Pardon me for my sincerity in admitting that. As for "what I regarded as pro-Turkish POV", I will refrain from posting the diffs here because I really don't see any good in proving my point. You remeber of course older misunderstandings we had (such as this one), when you yourself later admitted that you were in the wrong. NikoSilver 14:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The tense used in that sentence is very vague with that sentence construct, however I realise that your very good English is a second language and I can see with the benefit of your clarification what you say your point was.

I'd honestly like someone to point out my 'Turkish POV' which seems to equate to disagreeing with some of the rabid and openly anti-turkish editors on Misplaced Pages. I've spent many years in Greece and have always been shocked at the level of hatred that many of your countrymen display towards your neighbor to the south. I've spent less time in Turkey and have not seen that hatred reciprocated in such a commonplace way. Thats why I took it upon myself to stem some of the more ludicrous assertions that end up on these articles whilst maintaining the core truths. Disagreeing with the likes of Aristovulous who claims that the TCs went WILLINGLY into enclacves, where they lived like animals according to the UN, simply to obtain Takism isnt taking an Anti-Greek POV in my mind....its more akin to showing a child the error of his ways. Some horrible attrocities occured in Cyprus instigated by both sides, and for one side, three decades later, to continue to contrive, lie, distort and manipulate language to try to diminish or obscure their own crimes against humanity is deeply offensive to me. So those are my motives for what it is worth. I have nothing against Greece but I have a lot against Greek Nationalists that think its okay to lie about crimes against humanity. Adam777 15:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Some horrible attrocities occured in Cyprus instigated by both sides, and for one side, three decades later, to continue to contrive, lie, distort and manipulate language to try to diminish or obscure their own crimes against humanity is deeply offensive to me.

I wonder which side that "one side" is? It's probably the more experienced side, after all, contriving, lying, distorting and manipulating language to try to diminish or obscure the Armenian Genocide makes you a veteran of that kind of spin. Doing the same to the mediocre by comparison Turkish doings to the Greek Cypriots must be like a day at the park. Thulium 16:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, Adam, from your posts on this page, it seems you are harbouring more hatred inside you than all Greeks put together. Thulium 16:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see, so because I disagree with your position then I must be Turkish. How very predictable of you. I didn't work with you sailing from Piraeus by any chance did I, I seem to recognise that argument. Adam777 16:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I said you are Turkish many times, didn't I? Tell you what, why don't you quote a passage where I call you Turkish (assuming such a thing exists)? You really should carefully read what you are answering to before answering. It saves you from looking like a fool. Thulium 17:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"after all, contriving, lying, distorting and manipulating language to try to diminish or obscure the Armenian Genocide makes you a veteran of that kind of spin." I guess if you wernt talking to me then you might need to learn how to use the word 'you' in conversation.....now what were you saying about looking foolish? :) Adam777 17:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, yet wrong. The "you" refers to that "one side"; perhaps it would have been clearer to say "...makes one a veteran...". Thulium 18:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not know is Adam777 is Turkish, but his comment above is not something that i would call "balanced", as he might liked it to be... Been in Greece and seen much hate from fellow Greek countrymen against Turkey, but been in Turkey and saw nothing comparable against Greece? I suppose actions speak for themselves: Istanbul pogrom, bomb attacks against the Ecumenical Patriarchate, labour battalions of the Constantinopilitan Greeks during WWII, expulsion of the (supposedly) protected Greek minority from Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos, casus belli, etc. who made all these, Adam777? the Greeks? or maybe were/are these some sort of acts of friendship and love? Hectorian 17:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't change the subject please, Turkey has enough blood on its hands but that doesnt make Greek actions in Cyprus any less repugnant. Oh thats right they didnt happen did they. Listen its been fun but I have better things to do, Im sure I'll drop by again soon and see how reality differs from this article yet again. Adam777 17:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the Turkish actions on Cyprus? Oops, I forgot, we are not allowed to talk about it (we may get imprisoned or murdered for "insulting Turkishness")! More Greeks suffered and died as a result of Turkish thuggery on Cyprus than vice-versa. Remember that. Thulium 18:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Enough. Misplaced Pages is a respectable and serious project, not a chatroom. Verbal attacks and soapboxing won't get you any further, and certainly do nothing to improve the article. If you have something to say, do so rationally, calmly and civilly. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Aecis 12:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Drawing conclusions?

How is that supposed to be drawing a conclusion for the readers? It's a piece of accurate information regarding the source. Are you saying that if I loaded a set of dubious claims backed up with Greek sources they would be readily accepted as WP:INDY and WP:RS like this one was? I don't get it! Thulium 16:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already qualified by "reportedly". By stating "Turkish sources" you are insinuating that they are biased. The link can be clicked on to see what the source is (and it is noted as Zaman in the footnote as well, with a link to that paper's article). No need to pound it into the head of the reader—presumably they can read for themselves. _└  / _talk  18:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

So are you saying I can load "a set of dubious claims backed up with Greek sources they would be readily accepted as WP:INDY and WP:RS like this one was" (quoting my first post in this section)? Thulium 18:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't know how dubious these claims are. They're actually fairly weak as it is currently worded. If your claim is obviously dubious, then obviously it won't be considered a reliable source. However, if it is simply a question of weight to be given to the claim, and the claim is from a generally acceptable source (such as a major daily newspaper which is the case here), and you make it clear that it is a report and not a fact, and the subject is actually relevant, then there may be a place for it in the article. _└  / _talk  18:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to work something out in the text to reflect what I mean above. Visits can, or cannot be considered as "steps towards recognition" depending on how you want to see them. Thanks for the general cleanup Oz! Feel free to reword my text. NikoSilver 21:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"Arguably" works fine with me. _└  / _talk  22:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. My intention was to move the dispute from the fact that the visits indeed took place (which is indisputable no matter how partizan the source), to those visits being a gesture towards recognition or not. Hence, I replaced reportedly with arguably. NikoSilver 22:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but are we talking about whether a visit of an official of a state equals recognition? Sorry, (again), but are we serious?! could we also include the fact that Rauf Denktas could not and cannot visit the UK (or any other EU state), cause he may have the fate of Augusto Pinochet? this constitutes absolute non-recognition and comparison with dictatorship for the TRNC. To me, this is more important for the Cyprus issue than the visit of an official of Gambia in the TRNC... Hectorian 00:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Discuss changes

I see that we're on the verge of a new edit/revert war, with two "competing" versions of the intro text. Let's stop the war before it starts. Please use this talk page to discuss the intro, instead of reverting back and forth between two different versions. We are here to serve the reader, and the reader is entitled to a stable article. Readers should never have to expect to flipflop from one version to another in a matter of minutes. Please use this talk page to discuss any changes. Continuing in reverting each other will result in me full-protecting the article. Aecis 23:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

There are actually three versions. --physicq (c) 23:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I am an outsider, I have no interest in TRNC, on either side what so ever, but I want a better wiki-pedia that helps the reader. Please keep this current version:

The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) (Template:Lang-tr) (KKTC) is a de facto independent republic located in northern Cyprus within the internationally recognised borders of the Republic of Cyprus.

The rest is open for debate, but there is nothing factually incorrect in this initial opening sentence, and it is neutral to either side Pernambuco 23:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

During our debate with Aristovoul0s I've found out that the main problem is with 'de-facto independence'. The compromise I proposed is to add the phrase 'Turkey exercises strong infliuence over the TRNC and supports it financially and diplomatically' (well, something like that) to the first paragraph. Alaexis 07:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

An informal mediation was entered into some months ago on the subject of 'De facto' and the decision was that 'De Facto' was the correct term to use here. Aristovolus, who is currently banned, keeps pushing on that issue even long after the mediation ruled against him. If you want to pander to a disruptive banned editor go ahead. Adam777 05:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

He is blocked for 48h for breaking WP:3RR. Rightfully, I might add, but that doesn't make him a disruptive banned editor (unless of course he persists in breaking the rules). NikoSilver 13:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the original wording of "de facto state" accordingly. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think a lot of the resistance to De Facto comes from a lack of understanding of the term. It does 'sound' like it refers to a legally valid concept when the opposite is actually the case. Perhaps the initial use of the term 'de facto' could link to the Misplaced Pages definition of the term and we could link to the list of unrecognized nations elsewhere in the first few sentences. Just a thought. Adam777 16:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The repeated insertion of the word "independent" in the lead is becoming tiresome. The reason why Turkey is the only country to "recognise" the "TRNC" is because the rest of the world rightly views it as nothing more than the territory occupied by Turkey since it invaded in 1974. While the fact that the Republic of Cyprus exercises no control over it is indisputable, its "independence" from Turkey is POV, and a minority view at that. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a matter of argument how independent one state is from another, especially in this era of globalisation. Turkey provides economic and military aid, but Turkish Cypriot citizens elect their own leaders and parliament and look after their own administrative affairs. Relations between the TRNC and Turkey are treated like those between Turkey and any other state. In this respect the TRNC is a defacto independent state. --A.Garnet 17:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

POV.--Domitius 17:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Article is sliding to POV yet again

Once again biased entries citing non neutral sources are sliding the article away from the neutral point of view. I specifically refer to the History section where unspecified 'abuses' of the Cypriot constitution by Turkish Cypriots made the constitution unworkable. Even if you believe that the language, copied verbatim from a ROC report on the issue is not neutral. I would think that the editor in question, just back from a ban, would have chosen to take a more reasoned approach to this article. If (and its a huge if) those abuses can be substanciated from a reliable source then that paragraph can STILL be written in a less antagonistic tone. Your thoughts? Adam777 22:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

How would you suggest then that this sourced information be accommodated? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 05:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Find a neutral source that specifies these 'abuses' or revert the text back to the neutral text that preceded it. Its vague and POV right now. Adam777 14:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well its been a little while and this has not been addressed. I would add a 'citation needed' tag but the issue isnt with the lack of a tag, the issue is with POV vague items being introduced via a POV and vague citation. So I will revert this section back to the non neutral former text at the end of this month unless the 'editor' that put this 'edit' in place chooses, or any editor chooses to remedy the faults. Adam777 21:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Trade Statistics

Can we have some trade and economic statistics for this article? Figures for north-south exchanges, exports to Turkey, imports, tourism revenues, aso, aso... Politis

Aristovoul0s warned

I have issued an official warning to Aristovoul0s, for continuing to add his personal opinion to the article. What tipped the bucket is this series of edits. The user needs to stop soapboxing and editorializing. Aecis 13:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Never have i added personal opinion.

"Turkey, in furtherance to its designs, based on territorial aggrandisement, instigated the Turkish Cypriot leadership to resort to insurrection against the state, thus forcing the Turkish Cypriot members of the executive, legislature, judiciary and the civil service to withdraw from their posts, and created military enclaves in Nicosia and other parts of the island" . "As a result of the above, and the intercommunal violence that ensued, the Security Council of the United Nations was seized-of the situation, and by resolution 186 of 4 March 1964 a Peace Keeping Force (UNFICYP) was sent to Cyprus and a Mediator was appointed. In his Report (S/6253, A/6017, 26 Marach 1965), the Mediator, Dr Gala Plaza, criticized the 1960 legal framework, and proposed necessary amendements which were again forthwith rejected by Turkey, a fact which resulted in serious deterioration of the situation with constant threats by Turkey against the sovereignty and territorial intergrity of Cyprus, necessitating a series of UN Resolutions calling, inter alia, for respect of the sovereignty, independence and territorial intergrity of Cyprus". . "The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965, described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way: "The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (Report S/6426 10.6.65)".

"Approximately 37% of the territory of the Republic was and remains occupied. Many thousand of people amounting to 40% of the Greek Cypriot population, representing 82% of the total population of the occupied part of Cyprus, were forcibly expelled. Thousands of people, including civilians, were wounded, ill treated or killed. Moreover, the fate of hundreds of Greek Cypriote, including women and children and other civilians, many of whom were known to have been captured by the Turkish army, is still unknown. The Turkish occupation authorities resorted to a policy of systematic destruction of the cultural and religious heritage of Cyprus.

On 15 November 1983, in the middle of yet another United Nations initiative, the regime installed by Turkey in the part of Cyprus occupied by Turkish troops, issued a declaration by which it purported to create an independent state. Turkey immediately accorded recognition to the secessionist entity which, however, has not been recognized by any other state. Further secessionist acts followed. United Nations Security Council Resolutions 541(1983) and 550(1984), condemned the unilateral declaration and all subsequent secessionist acts, declared them illegal and invalid, and called for their immediate withdrawal. The Resolutions also called on all states not to recognize the purported state and not to facilitate or in any way assist it.

In its search for a peaceful solution, the Cyprus Government, despite the continuing illegal occupation, agreed to intercommunal talks being held in line with the aforesaid UN resolutions. No success was so far achieved, because of the Turkish intransigence and partitionist designs. In the words of the UN Secretary General: "For the present, the Security Council finds itself faced with an already familiar scenario; the absence of agreement due essentially to a lack of political will on the Turkish Cypriot side" (para 53, doc. S/1994/629 of 30 May 1994).

From the above, it is evident that the Government of the Republic of Cyprus is prevented by armed force from exercising authority and control and ensuring implementation and respect of human rights in the occupied area (pl. see inter alia European Commission of Human Rights Reports, Cyprus agains Turkey, op.sit. "The Commission concludes that Turkey's jurisdiction in the north of the Republic of Cyprus, existing by reason of the presence of her armed forces there which prevents exercise of jurisdiction by the applicant Government, cannot be excluded on the ground that jurisdiction in that area is allegedly exercised by the "Turkish Federated State of Cyprus"". pl. also see Judgement of European Court of Human Rights, "Case of Loizidou v. Turkey (Merits) (40/1993/435/514) Judgment, 18 December 1996". . Aristovoul0s 14:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all there's no need to copypaste your entire edit, since everything is visible in red in the diff I provided. I will not go into detail with you on this, since the case is clear. The above text is full of pov, original research and soapboxing. Your warning is not negotiable. Stop using Misplaced Pages to further your own opinion or case. And I repeat: if you wish to see something changed in this article, use this talk page to gain consensus. Aecis 22:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, Aecis, kindly observe that all edits are taken verbatum from the country report of Cyprus to the Council of Europe (here). That is definitely neither WP:OR, nor WP:NOT#SOAP, nor WP:POV. It may be not WP:NPOV either, but that should require addition of the other POV, rather than deletion of the existing POV. Consensus is not required for sourced edits. Maybe quote attribution would be the case here. And of course Aristo should not delete other sourced edits (if he did) to add that POV only. NikoSilver 23:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Three points regarding your reply. 1. Copypasting a text verbatim from another source without proper attribution, without even adding so much as quotation marks, is plagiarism. 2. The text still does not meet our neutral point of view policy, regardless of who originally wrote it. We should give proper weight to the view of the government of the Republic of Cyprus regarding this issue, but we do not present that view as fact. 3. The edits are part of a larger pattern of edits, which together constitute an attempt to further a pro-Cypriot, anti-TRNC point of view. While such views are entirely legitimate, Misplaced Pages is not the place to vent those views. This behaviour needs to stop. Aecis 00:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Exactly, he should mention the source and add the quotation marks. -- 2. Would be solved if he did #1. -- 3. The user is bound to have a pro-Cypriot POV, being a Cypriot himself. We can always add the Turkish-Cypriot-POV also. Patterns of edits are bound to exist both ways, and what we need is a cool head to help weigh those patterns; not to mute one pattern in favor of another.

Look, I understand your concerns. I'm sure your warning will help in toning things down here, but let's try to take whatever is good from Aristo's edits and sources. His knowledge on the issue is very helpful for the article in expressing the Cypriot POV, and in part the international POV (given that he backs that latter one especially with WP:INDY sources). NikoSilver 00:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Intro (again and again and again)

Listen people, "defacto state" doesn't mean anything - it sounds silly. "de facto inpedendent" (literally meaning independent as a matter of fact, or in street language "independent just 'coz") however means that it is not internationally recognized as such, because it is the opposite of "independent per international law". I find it really ironic that it is being reverted actually - aren't we seriously confusing notions here? Baristarim 09:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The notion that the "TRNC" is "independent" in any serious sense of the word is preposterous. It may be "independent" of Cyprus but it is certainly dependent on Turkey in every way imaginable. That might be the reason it remains unrecognised internationally. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 09:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The "independence" here is vis-à-vis RoC first of all, and that's what it means primo. Since it is not internationally recognized, its relative degree of independence is not for the lead to develop - there is the whole article for that. By the way, it could also be said that it is dependent on Turkey because it is not recognized and because of the "defacto" embargo of RoC. How about looking at it from that angle? If Turkish Cypriots have to route their flights from Turkey, obviously they will be dependent on it. Right? :) No need to reply to that one. lol Baristarim 09:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edit seems pretty ok actually. But I am sure we will come back to this sometime in the near future, so I am not going to ponder too much about it. :) Baristarim 09:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I suspect neither of us is going to solve the real life issue by tweaking the wording in WP. Kekrops and me want to highlight that the independence is not universal. It is indeed dependent on Turkey alone. I understand Baris' argument that it is dependent on Turkey because of the boycott, but we'll never end citing reasons (ie. it is dependent on Turkey due to the boycott, due to the legally invalid self-declaration, due to the Turkish invasion, due to the attempt for unification with Greece by the Junta that wouldn't go and didn't go through anyway, due to the Turkish Cypriot provocations, due to the Greek Cypriot provocations, due to the Ottoman settlement, due... -we'll never end). How about we write that factual and important information elsewhere? I'll make an attempt. Please advise. NikoSilver 11:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Baris, do you agree with my change? I'm not saying something new here, and I think it accomodates our concerns while it doesn't clutter the first sentence. NikoSilver 11:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, how independent a country is is entirely subjective. We could say Liechtenstein is in fact not independent because it relies on the Swiss for defence and uses the Swiss Franc, or the RoC is dependent on Greece for security. We could even say that under Rauf Denktas the TRNC was in fact dictating Turkish policy, as Denktas had a way of sidelining the Turkish politicians. So saying it is "dependent on Turkey" is simply open to interpretation, and something that should elaborated on in the article, not in the lead. --A.Garnet 13:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The exact same rationale can be applied to how independent a country is. We may as well strike both (like it was before for months), or keep both to show the contrast. Come on Garnet, please, I've done my best in trying to find a middle solution for this wording to refrain from edit warring. We can't say that TRNC being depended on Turkey is POV, and at the same time endorse that its de facto independence is NPOV! Liechtenstein and the others do have interactions with the whole rest of the planet! NikoSilver 13:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

once we get into an argument of how independent a country is, then it never stops, the truth is that no country in the world is truly independent of anyone else these days, Israel depends on the United States, and the United States depends on other countries for oil, and depends on China or else Walmart would be empty, almost the entire Africa depends on donor countries for their survival, not even North Korea is independent even though they have their Juche theory and want to be. The fact is that TRNC governs by itself and that RoC rules do not apply within the territory that is under TRNC control, and that what the intro refers to, the rest of the article also makes that perfectly clear. So the intro is in line with the rest of that article, and please don't change it, it is factual and correct one hundred percent even if some people don't like this reality, when the reality changes, change the intro, not before Pernambuco 15:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The key difference being of course that Liechtenstein was not produced by a Swiss invasion. The reality is that the "TRNC" only exists as a direct result of the Turkish invasion and occupation of Cyprus, or to put it simply would never have existed without. Its situation is not quite comparable to that of an existing or at least self-generated small country inevitably falling under the influence of a much larger neighbour. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The TRNC exists. No it doesn’t. Yes it does. No yes no …. How long is this going to go on ? I don’t really get what all the fighting is about. No strike that – I do know. But I have a strong feeling it’s not really about the factual accuracy of this article, but rather about whether we want the TRNC to exist or not.

From a neutral point of view : The TRNC exists. Within the constraints of an international embargo it is operating pretty much like a completely independent country. Whether we like that or not, whether it’s “right”, legal, illegal or the result of an illegal occupation – it’s still a fact. Changing the wording in this article to something like “puppet state” doesn’t change that.

At the same time the TRNC is also not recognized by anyone except Turkey and is largely dependant on that country for economic and military aid. Whether or not Northern Cyprus will eventually become recognized, become fully self-sufficient and a full member of the international community one day, doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t yet. No amount of weasel-wording is going to change that.

So – isn’t there someone who can put this into words and finally put an end to this never-ending edit war ? After all - this is supposed to be an encyclopedia and not a proxy-war zone. Travelbird 18:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You were talking about me perhaps? () Thank you, but I'd be more cautius in excluding people like myself from "a proxy-war zone"... :-) NikoSilver 00:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

We could (and apparently are) argue about the definition of independence. However I would guess that most other articles about nations don't specify their independence in the intro. The TRNC has declared independence but that has yet to be agreed upon by the UN. The TRNC is a de-facto state, it exists in fact but is legally invalid. So I would say that the word independent isnt warranted. Thats just my 2 cents. Adam777 19:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What makes its independence worth noting is that it is of a defacto nature. A number of non-recognise states follow the exact same wording in their intro i.e. Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Somaliland, South Ossetia etc. So this nothing controversial imo, just a waste of time and effort arguing over it. --A.Garnet 19:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, and someone who adds a fact tag (like here) is just plain out disruptive, the fact is in the very existence free of Republic of Cyprus rule. Stop arguing about it, other de facto states that had "outside support" in their creation also has that phrase, it is just reality so stop waste time and effort Pernambuco 22:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I thank Permabuco and Travelbird for endorsing the present version. NikoSilver 00:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A.Garnet, not only is the TRNC (overwhelmingly) dependent on Turkey, but so does its de facto independence status, specifically. So Niko's addition strikes me as rather sensible. Regards, El_C 00:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Nikos, do you mean this ? Yeah, I suppose it is ok. I don't think that it is necessary to repeat the "Republic" twice in the lead anyways (in addition to the title) + dependancy and recognition by Turkey go hand in hand. The article's main can develop that further down in the article. It is factually correct to state that it is dependant on Turkey for survival in any case, everyone knows that. And I don't see any inherent POV with that either since for the Turkish side it is a good thing, for the RoC side a bad thing. It is just a matter of interpretation. Baristarim 01:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

RE: republic/state — agreed and ammended accordingly. El_C 01:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree and linked T......N...C (instead). Is it ok? NikoSilver 01:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it uncessary to wikilink republic for this entry, but sure. El_C 01:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry El_C, but the inclusion of the word "dependent" just strikes me as another way to push the "puppet state" pov. We already state it is defacto independent, that it is within the RoC's recognised borders, that the UN recognises the RoC sovereignty over the whole island etc, now we are introducing an ambigous statement that it is "dependent" on Turkey. Dependent how and to what extent? Surely this needs to be elaborated on in the article as part of the economy and military section, not be used to further push the pov which would rather have this article labelled "Turkish occupied northern Cyprus".

Also El_C, while you are here, can you please comment on the pov-title tag. Thanks, --A.Garnet 02:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think dependent is fine for the lead; elaboration as to what this mean can take place in the body. At the momement, I favour Niko's formulation over the alternatives. As for the tag, I'm going to remove it (we can't have a title contested indefinitely — I think that at this point, either either someone files a request for a move, or we should move on). Thank you. El_C 12:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Not just economically and militarily reliant on Turkey, but also politically, diplomatically, culturally, in terms of transportation, and so on and so forth. "Dependent" is the only succinct and accurate description of this "special relationship". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It really is quite remarkable. El_C removes the POV-title tag on this article, then suddenly up pops Dirak out of hibernation, removes the tag from PGG with the help of his Greek editor in arms, and now magically we have the tag reappear here and disappear off PGG! I wish we had half as many dedicated Turkish editors as you people, I really do envy what you can achieve! ;) --A.Garnet 21:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no stake in this issue, other than having had a Greek Cypriot friend whom I once visited 17 years ago. Having read with interest this entire talk page, it seems to me both sides can reasonably and unresolvably argue whether TR/NC is "independent," and therefore "de facto" is too strong a modifier to use as it suggests an accepted, facts-on-the-ground reality. However, the full phrase "de facto independent" has a specific WP definition which appears accurate and NPOV here. This is a problem: "de facto independent" (one phrase) is probably the technically correct term to use based on its WP entry, but for the casual reader who might not click the link in the article (or even realize it's not two links, which I didn't) it sounds as though TR/NC's real-world independence is without dispute. That is of course not the case, so it sounds like POV and I can understand why the intro keeps being edited. I'd propose replacing "de facto" with "self-declared" (which is indisputable), and perhaps a link to "de facto independent" under "See Also". (Note that I am not an experienced WP editor and am just floating an idea on an issue in which I have no stake or strong opinion, so please don't flame me.) Ivanxqz 18:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

For those readers you're talking about it's written two times in the intro that TRNC is not recognised by international community. 'Self-declared' is technically true but the main argument against it is that a lot of the countries (like US, Ukraine or Slovenia) are also self-declared. It would be inconsistent to use this term only for unrecognised countries, it's like writing one thing and meaning another one. Alaexis 18:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair point regarding self-declared, so that is perhaps not the best term to use. But to your other point, while it's clear enough to readers that TRNC isn't recognized by the international community, "de facto independent" (when read casually, not according to its specific WP entry) still suggests that the TRNC's independence is beyond dispute, which from what I can tell is not the case. International recognition and the reality of TRNC's independence appear to be separate issues here. I was trying to find a term everyone could agree on, because I couldn't see everyone agreeing on "de facto independence" when de facto suggests "real," and "independence" is heavily argued. Ivanxqz 19:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suppose we cannot make a version that would please everyone. So I think the current compromise works well enough. Another issue is that these words (de-facto independent within int'ly recognised borders of XXX) seem to hold in almost all articles about unrecognised states. Changing something here would either require changing all those articles as well (which is by no means easy) or will cause similar things to be named differently across the wikipedia. Alaexis 15:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I am an outsider to this, but it is clear, the version "de facto independent within the internationally recognized borders of Cyprus" is by far the best, it is factual and true, and it is how the same introduction is done for other entities in the same situation, so count my vote 100% for this Pernambuco 01:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Consistent title

Unlike most here that support TRNC as the title, I don't have much problem with changing it to Northern Cyprus, but I prefer TRNC. Likewsie, I also prefer NKR to Nagorno-Karabakh. I think the title of all de facto countries should reflect this key feature (i.e. through the conventional longform). I also think that, crucially, it needs to be comprehensive for it to work. So I'd like to broaden the scope of this, but before taking it to centralized discussion venue, I'm interested in some brief impressions. Many thanks for your patience. El_C 05:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it El_C, when talking about non-recognised entities, we are not conveying information on a geographic location (as Northern Cyprus would imply), but rather a defacto governmental entity, its institutions, politics, economics etc. In this case it is the TRNC that is notable and not simply the north of Cyprus. Furthermore, as Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict cleary states, Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. We use the term TRNC because that is what it is called and what we are describing, not what people think it should be called. --A.Garnet 10:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but my main point is about consistency elsewhere. I'd like to see that addressed, too. El_C 10:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about non-recognised entities in general. So yes, I agree the other should use their long form also. --A.Garnet 11:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, good. I think it would be best to start a centralized discussion on renaming those currently using the conventional shortform into the longform and leave a refractored note in those entries talk pages. El_C 11:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Concur. I had said from the beginning that it should be a standard practice.. But obviously it will need to be a centralized discussion because the case is not only about the TRNC. Hmm.. Maybe we can get WP Countries or something else involved to create such a discussion.. Baristarim 11:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to facilitate a centralized discussion about this during the following week. Also, I'm wandering if any editors from the 'Greek side' have any input to offer. El_C 13:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not on any side about this, though I'm more familiar with the Greek side of the story than the Turkish. With that said, my vote is for TRNC. Either NC or TRNC reflects a POV of some kind. However, TRNC also describes an entity that does in fact exist, whether or not one believes it to be legitimate. Therefore the name "TRNC" might be political and POV, but it is also descriptive. NC, on the other hand, specifically rejects/ignores the existence of the government which controls the northern part of the country (much the same way as Syria refers to Israel as "Occupied Palestine" on their visa applications). So NC in my view is the "more" POV of the two names because it purposefully denies reality to make a political statement. Therefore, when choosing between two political, POV names, I think we have to choose the one that describes an entity which clearly exists (TRNC), rather than the one that suggests it does not (NC). Ivanxqz 18:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Aristov edits

If you want to include selective sources which demonise one community over the other, then that is a game both of us can play, plenty of sources out there implicating GC's in attrocities and genocides. Personally, i prefer the history to be an objective overview of the event, but if you insist on these kind of sources, I will be forced to give a fuller account of the events (and yes, they will all be sourced). --A.Garnet 00:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, i had enough. What are you talking about? One of the two paragraphs you are referring to in such a twisting way above are the words of The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965. Practicaly you are dismissing the SG's words as "selective source" which "demonise one community over the other", you prefer "objectivity" but not "these kind of sources". You are deleting tags while providing no sources and believe in "objectivity". This article is blatantly biased, and one sided. What you consider as "objective" sad to say, is the removal and silencing of third party statements made by the United Nations Secretary-General

The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish

In this article every little piece of information is being twisted to portray and promote Turkish POV by selective sources like this sentence: "In 1963 President Makarios proposed changes to the constitution via thirteen amendments, an unconstitutional act itself according to David Hannay". "Proposing" amendments is deemed unconstitutional (mind you, the amendments were not discussed or implemented), and the amendments are portayed as "to settle many of the constitutional disputes in the Greek Cypriots' favor". A definite Turkish propaganda. Feel free to go through the amendments that were proposed and pinpoint "Greeks favor". And you consider this phrasing and tone and style of writing to be "objective" while the SG words above "demonise" one community over the other?

Feel free to add any piece of information that it is sourced, wikipedia has guidelines that all editors should adhere to. But do not delete sourced information that other editors are adding as if you own wikipedia. Aristovoul0s 18:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have been contacted by Aristovoul0s about this edit. I have replied to this on his talk page. My answer may be of use to this discussion: "... One point I would like to make at the moment is my first impression, which is that the two paragraphs you added were somewhat uncontextual chunks of text. I would recommend rewriting the paragraphs, so that they fit within the already existing body of text. (Note: this is purely a layout suggestion, I haven't yet looked into the content of what you added). Aecis 20:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the disputed paragraphs, I have decided to hide them from view for the moment. If they are to be included in the article, they should be copyedited and wikified to fit in with the existing text. Aecis 14:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Lock?

Why isn't this page locked? There seems to be so much vandalism from both side and so much arguing nothing is ever going to be achieved by debate. My suggestion is to get a 'neutral' strips the article down to the bones and rebuilds it, not necesserily to it's current length, just stating facts rather than using evocative language. Might be a rubbish idea but thought I'd put it forward. Cls14 17:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

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