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Section Headings Added, Disputed

I added Section headings and regrouped material under those, adding minority references. These were reverted several times without discussion. I have moved the section headings and proposed material here for duscussion to obtain concensus.DLH 20:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Added summary of Sternberg's perspective. Corrected misstatement on societies position regarding peer review and gave a quote of one of the stated reasons. Regrouped material. Added Category:Intelligent design Added quote by Sternberg on the actual peer review process and results with link. DLH 03:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Added summary quote by Sternberg on peer review. DLH 03:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Added headings to clarify the discussion. Reordered & regrouped to clarify. Added contrasting references, links.DLH 17:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

FeloniusMonk Please address concerns in Discussion, rather than bulk revert numerous edits, additions, categories etc. What objection is there toadding categories? What to adding counterbalancing comments from Sternberg? DLH 18:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I've had to revert this. Your regrouping and placements, as well as your new section headings, were obviously POV because they imparted undue weight to Sternberg's viewpoint. Your changes implied a parity between the two opinions, Sternberg's and his employer, the journal's publishers. There isn't. Sternberg's position is only supported by his opinion and interpretations of things like what constitutes proper peer review, etc. Whereas the publisher's position is supported by their own long-standing policies long unchallenged by the greater scientific community. Also, Sternberg's claims in his statement are not particularly credible since none of his allegations have been ultimately upheld by any of the third parties he's turned to.

This is a simple matter of the article needing to represent the majority and minority viewpoints in their proper proportion, per WP:NPOV. Sternberg's viewpoint being the minority clearly while the publisher's, speaking as part of the scientific community, is the majority. FeloniousMonk 19:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is that BOTH majority and minority viewpoints are presented.

I have tried to add categories to highlight the discussion. I have added statements and further references. I put alot of effort into adding minority view. Just because you advocate majority view does not mean you can censor all minority additions.DLH 19:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Just because you advocate minority view does not mean you can ignore WP:NPOV, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:POINT. You need to develop a better understanding of Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight before you're able to lecture long-term contributors on NPOV here. Edit warring under the guise of "restoring for discussion" is not how it works here. Contested content is removed to the talk page for discussion. Either play by wikipedia's rules or set up an account at creationwiki. FeloniousMonk 19:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ten next time please move the sections you content to the talk page and ask for discussion, rather than just reverting major additions several times without discussion.DLH 20:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Outside Peer reviewed?

The proposed change is to add this subheading and change the section to the following:

Sternberg insists the paper was properly peer reviewed, and rejects the journal's allegations for disavowing the article. Sternberg further claimed to have followed the standard practice for peer review:

. . .Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication. . . . four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication. . . .

Critics claim Sternberg's statement directly contradicts those of his former employer, the publisher of the journal, that proper review procedures were not followed resulting in the article's retraction.. Sternberg responds:

Subsequently, after the controversy arose, Dr. Roy McDiarmid, President of the Council of the BSW, reviewed the peer-review file and concluded that all was in order. As Dr. McDiarmid informed me in an email message on August 25th, 2004, "Finally, I got the reviews and agree that they are in support of your decision ."

What is inaccurate about these citations? If you have further references, please add them. DLH 19:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Critics claim the paper was not peer reviewed. A careful examination of statements by the Journal and Sternberg indicate that it received 3 outside peer reviews plus Sternbergs. Sternberg cites the President of the Journal affirming that. The Journal's statement does not dispute that. The ? after the category is to indicate the controversy? What disputeis there over these statements?DLH 19:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You're drawing an unsupported conclusion from a highly tendentious reading of the facts. The article was withdrawn by the publisher. The publiser says the article circumvented established peer review procedures. Meaning that any peer review Sternberg claims it underwent was rejected by the publisher. That's The article was withdrawn by the publisher, and why you're unable to keep your personal POV out of this article. FeloniousMonk 19:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This section explicitly addresses whether external peer reviews were obtained. The president of BSW affirms that. The Next section addresses the "typical practice" issue of Associate Editor vs Editor himself editing it. If you can find any statements that by the Journal or Sternberg to the effect that the three outside peer reviews were not obtained, then please post them as contrary views. Until then, these are cited references with summary statements. I will change the title to "OUTSIDE Peer Review?"DLH 19:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review by buddy-selected cronies is not peer review. The only question here is whether the "peer view" Sternberg claims was performed was valid. The publisher says it wasn't and went so far to retract the paper. That Sternberg claims otherwise and rejects the publishers actions and statement is a non sequitur and a sidenote at most (already in the article), and certainly not a reason for wikipedia's article here to imply that the withdrawn article "may" be peer reviewed, which is what you're arguing for here. FeloniousMonk 19:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The BSW President is cited as affirming that outside reviewers were proper and supported Sternberg's choice to publish. That is referenced to a published source. Careful examination of the Journal's statement shows that it does not dispute this. The Society statement addresses the "typical practice" of assigning to an Assistant reviewer. If you disput that, please point to a reference to support it and add that reference. Wiki policy is to assume good faith and to give references.DLH 20:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

So say's Sternberg. Do you have a credible, neutral citation for that? The only cite you've provided is to his crank site. We need to be circumspect here because so far none, not one, of Sternberg's allegations have held up or produced results, and the withdrawl of the Meyers article from the journal remains in effect, meaning there remain no pro-ID peer reviewed articles published in the scientific press. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Your allegation that Sternberg selected "buddy-selected cronies" is a serious charge of professional misconduct. Is that an effort at "assuming good faith"? Sternberg cites the BSW president that the outside reviews were proper. IF you can find a statement from the BSW president disputing that citation, then please add it to show majority/minority positions. The BSW statement does not address the outside peer reviewers. Sternberg has conducted himself as a professional editor upholding the confidentiality of the reviewers. Until those reviewers agree to publish their identities, your allegation needs to be substantiated or withdrawn. Having worked to obtain serious peer review in another field, that is a serious charge that undermines the peer review process by ad hominem attacks if not substantiated. IF you read the BSW statement carefully, it addressed the issue of Sternberg's choosing to edit the paper rather than assign it to an associate editor. It does not address the outside reviewers.DLH 20:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly why his employer had to very publicly say "was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings" and withdraw the paper... Please. Stepping outside the "typical editorial practices" to see a paper published of a fellow traveler that you knew would stand no other chance strikes me as the very definition of professional misconduct. Especially damning when done on your way out the door for good. FeloniousMonk 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Statement by the President of Biological Society of Washington:

However, in January 2005 Dr. Roy McDiarmid, President, Biological Society of Washington privately corroborated Sternberg's statement to Dr. Hans Sues (Smithsonian's #2 scientist)

, House Government Reform Committee Dec. 2006, p24,,

This is a definitive source with the text published by the House Government Reform committeeDLH 05:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In other words, Mr. McDiarmid's review of the file did not lead him, based on the material he saw, to conclude Mr. Sternberg's use of the process was inappropriate. I am not surprised that Mr. McDiarmid was "surprised" though, given that the three reviewers consisted of non-biologists, one a baraminologist, along with a theologian and a philosopher. Yes, I think I'd be surprised too if I were in his position. ... Kenosis 05:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Non Sequitor. McDiarmid gives not evidence of who the three reviewers were.

Of course not; Sternberg gave the hint himself. One's an Ivy Leaguer (Wells with the PhD from Yale), another's from a major US university (Nelson of the University of Chicago) and a third participates in an international study group (Todd Wodd). Admittedly it's a non-sequitur as to the allegations of misuse of the peer review process. ... Kenosis 20:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

McDiarmid's opinion, who's only connection to the topic is that he's a creationist fellow-traveler, in neither relevant nor notable. And the Appendix to Intolerance and the Politicization of Science is hardly the "definitive source" you claim. Instead, it is a wholly partisan source, being co-written by none other than the pro-ID Santorum Amendment's Rick Santorum, another ID fellow-traveler. You have yet to produce a single neutral, unaffiliated source that supports Sternberg's claims. FeloniousMonk 06:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

False characterization. "Roy McDiarmid ". Dr. McDiarmid was president of the Biological Society of Washington, and thus the final authority over the Journal and review process in question. His statement thus has the highest authority in the case.DLH 18:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

See: "President Roy McDiarmid" http://www.biolsocwash.org/minutes_2003.html http://www.biolsocwash.org/minutes_2004.html http://www.biolsocwash.org/minutes_2005.html

No, the highest authority from the BSW that's written on the matter is the Council of the Biological Society of Washington, and their opinion on Sternberg's actions is clear and in direct conflict with McDiarmid's: Certianly the council took McDiarmid's personal opinion as BSW president into account when they decided to issue their blanket statement condemning Sternberg's actions and withdrawing the article. Also, you continue to ignore the fact of Rick Santorum's role in the national ID campaign and that he's been shown to be less than neutral in his support of Sternberg and ID, so any source given here coming from him will be treated as a partisan source. FeloniousMonk 19:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

This cites the actual private email from McDiarmid obtained by Congress. McDiarmid is an authorized person who had access to the confidential review records and is thus an authority on the subject. This compact statement satisfies verification policy from an authoritative source.DLH 19:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

More accurately its a "partisan source" not an defintive source since it was obtained and presented by Santorum and Souder, the two are the most notable ID pushers in the House and their report is the product of their committee, not that of the entire Congress. Misrepresenting sources is not going to result in slanted content getting into the article. FeloniousMonk 19:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

McDiarmid is the definitive source as he as actually reviewed the confidential review records with his responsibility as BSW President. His email was reproduced. The report was a Staff Report to Chairman Mark Souder, not to Senator Santorum. (Congressman Souder and Senator Santorum conducted a joint investigation in 2005.) DLH 23:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sternberg's Paper Reviewed

• Sternberg's own paper was published in the annals of the NY Academy of Science. With their reputation, they presumably manage their review process. Sternberg refers to separate criticism received.DLH 00:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Publisher vs Editor

If you dispute this section please discuss.DLH 19:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no. That's not how wikipedia works. You've got it exactly backwards. I you want to change long-standing content that enjoys broad consensus, then you need to make your case for it here, not the other way around. FeloniousMonk 19:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That is surprising seeing that there was NO discussion until I added discussion. I do not see how it can have "broad consensus" with no discussion. It may have not been critically reviewed.DLH 19:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Because since most of us are capable of following WP:NPOV#pseudoscience and WP:NPOV#Undue weight that there is unwritten consensus. It only gets discussed when someone gets upset that their m:MPOV isn't being represented. — Dunc|☺ 20:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

DLH has a point. If there was no discussion, on what grounds can Felonious say there was "braod consensus"? Call me a WP:V junkie, but that sort of verification is just the kind of thing I like--if only because a number of times I have seen Felonious appeal to a "consensus" but when I requested he provide evidence of said consensus, he refused (e.g. here).

Proposed section: This addresses the heart of the controversy Between the Journal and Sternberg over Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor. Propose titling this as "Publisher's Review Policies" as an objective statement of the section. Moved Sternberg comments from Outside Review to this section.

Questionable Claim and Citation

There is something that bothers me here. The Misplaced Pages entry says that, "proper review procedures were not followed" but the cited link associated to it only says that "Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process." There is a difference between "typical" and "proper." Sternberg says, "...I took direct editorial responsibility for the paper. As discussed above, the Council of the BSW had given me, the managing editor, the discretion to decide how a paper was to be reviewed and edited as well as the final decision on whether it would be published." This seems to suggest that that Sternberg followed proper procedure regarding his decision on how the peer-review process would happen, even if most peer-reviewed articles are not done this way. I suggest modifying "proper" to "typical" until we have a cited source from the publisher actually contains the "proper" claim (the cited source doesn't actually claim he violated the publisher's peer-review policy). --Wade A. Tisthammer 20:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Typical" - that it be handled by an associate editor. "Proper" - that it be reviewed at all. There is no evidence that the paper was actually reviewed (he is unable to produce the "four biologists" or their reviews). So it's more than "atypical" (not handled by an associate editor) it's improper (not peer reviewed). Guettarda 20:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the cited source never actually says he violated proper procedure. Sternberg says, "Since systematics and evolutionary theory are among my primary areas of interest and expertise (as mentioned above, I hold two PhDs in different aspects of evolutionary biology), and there was no associate editor with equivalent qualifications, I took direct editorial responsibility for the paper. As discussed above, the Council of the BSW had given me, the managing editor, the discretion to decide how a paper was to be reviewed and edited as well as the final decision on whether it would be published." The cited source says this action was not "typical" but it does not say he violated proper procedure.

You say, "There is no evidence that the paper was actually reviewed" but why think that it wasn't? There are many scientists skeptical of Darwinian evolution (even if their skepticism is unfounded), and as I mentioned elsewhere ID does some in-house peer review. Why think he could not find some that were willing to review the paper? I don't entirely agree with his decision not to release the names of the scientists who reviewed it, but his fear that those four biologists might be persecuted for their behavior does not seem entirely without foundation (consider what happened to him).

I did a little checking and found out Sternberg's actions brought some attention from the investigation by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC), an independent federal agency. This is what it had to say,

They also assumed that you violated editorial regulations of the Proceedings because you were the primary editor of the article. These comments were made to and by SI and NMNH managers and were published to several outside organizations. It was later revealed that you complied with all editorial requirements of the Proceedings and that the Meyer article was properly peer reviewed by renowned scientists. As an aside, the information received by OSC does not indicate that any effort was made to recall or correct these comments once the truth was made known.

You can see for yourself here. What do you make of this? --Wade A. Tisthammer 14:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"Contrary to typical editorial practices..." It's clear that the Council of the Biological Society of Washington determined that Sternberg stepped outside 'proper' procedure. FeloniousMonk 21:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No it's not clear, because as I said before the cited source never actually says he violated proper procedure. Sternberg says, "Since systematics and evolutionary theory are among my primary areas of interest and expertise (as mentioned above, I hold two PhDs in different aspects of evolutionary biology), and there was no associate editor with equivalent qualifications, I took direct editorial responsibility for the paper. As discussed above, the Council of the BSW had given me, the managing editor, the discretion to decide how a paper was to be reviewed and edited as well as the final decision on whether it would be published." The cited source says this action was not "typical" but it does not say he violated proper procedure.

I did a little checking and found out Sternberg's actions brought some attention from the investigation by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC), an independent federal agency. This is what it had to say,

They also assumed that you violated editorial regulations of the Proceedings because you were the primary editor of the article. These comments were made to and by SI and NMNH managers and were published to several outside organizations. It was later revealed that you complied with all editorial requirements of the Proceedings and that the Meyer article was properly peer reviewed by renowned scientists. As an aside, the information received by OSC does not indicate that any effort was made to recall or correct these comments once the truth was made known.

You can see for yourself here. What do you make of this? --Wade A. Tisthammer 14:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

What do I make of that? I think you better find a different source. Um, Wade, you know that David Klinghoffer is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, right? His opinion is no more neutral on the topic than Sternberg's, he often uses his articles to make the case for his ID cronies. If you're going to raise a ruckus here disputing well-sourced content, at least try to find neutral sources to prop-up one side's viewpoint. FeloniousMonk 03:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, David Klinghoffer is a senior fellow at DI, but that is not relevant because he was not the one who authored the U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC) document that contains the quote I presented above. It was the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, an independent federal agency that said Sternberg "complied with all editorial requirements...and that the Meyer article was properly peer reviewed by renowned scientists." (Note also what it said about false claims saying otherwise.) May I ask why you believe anti-ID websites are more neutral than the U.S. Office of Special Counsel? Or if you do not believe this, in any case why object to including what the OSC said here? And what about the citation not actually containing the claim "proper review procedures were not followed"? That the claim is sourced by a citation that does not actually contain the claim is a serious problem and you have thus far ignored it. The citation says what Sternberg did (handling the entire review process himself and not having an associate editor review it) was not typical, but it does not say he violated proper editorial procedures; and perhaps for good reason considering what the OSC said above. I'm all for including what the citation said; that the actions he took were not typical. But saying that "proper review procedures were not followed", attribute this to a source that does not actually contain the claim, and omit what the independent federal agency said on this matter above does not seem appropriate. --Wade A. Tisthammer 17:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice dodge. Of course Klinghoffer being a fellow traveler of Sternberg's is relevent Wade, only a fellow partisan would argue it isn't. Just like the author of the OSC letter to Sternberg, as the article details. That the OSC ultimatey rejected Sternberg's claim and why is the ultimate answer to your ceaseless objections, Wade. FeloniousMonk 17:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it relevant given that it is the U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC) that makes the claim in question? Klinghoffer is a senior fellow at the DI, fine. But the author of the OSC document is not.

Speaking of dodges, I notice that you continue to evade the issue that the citation does not actually contain the claim associated with it. The citation says that what Sternberg did was not typical but it does not say he violated proper editorial procedure. One can follow the rules in an atypical way (e.g. if I where a funny hat when I study for a test; I still follow the rule of not cheating). The OSC document says Sternberg complied with all editorial requirements of the journal, and mentions the existence of false statements to the contrary (statements like the one under discussion here). I simply don't see what basis you have for including the unsourced challenged material. --Wade A. Tisthammer 21:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That's because your objection is simply one more instance of your ridiculous hair splitting seeking to descredit a particular viewpoint that casts ID in an unfavorable light. It's the same perspective you've sought to discredit in every ID-related article you visit your history shows. The relevant passage of the Statement from the Council of the Biological Society of Washington is present in the article for readers to decide for themselves:

"The paper by Stephen C. Meyer ... was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process."

And it's clear that any rational, reasonable reader of the statement that the Council of the Biological Society of Washington felt Sternberg failed to follow procedures, "proper," "typical" or otherwise. You're wasting your time with this objection. The original source is presented and properly cited and described. FeloniousMonk 21:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No it is not, nor is what I am doing hairsplitting. Want proof? Consider, we have one source that says he did not follow typical procedures (it does not say he followed no procedures), and we have another reputable source that explicitly says he did follow proper procedures. Note that there is no contradiction between these two claims. Do you acknowledge this? (I would like an answer to this question please.) I agree that what Sternberg did might not have been the usual way to get a paper published. But did he comply with all editorial requirements? Apparently so.

"They also assumed that you violated editorial regulations of the Proceedings because you were the primary editor of the article. These comments were made to and by SI and NMNH managers and were published to several outside organizations. It was later revealed that you complied with all editorial requirements of the Proceedings and that the Meyer article was properly peer reviewed by renowned scientists. As an aside, the information received by OSC does not indicate that any effort was made to recall or correct these comments once the truth was made known. "

Rejecting one reputable source out of hand (noting that he followed proper procedure, i.e. "complied with all editorial requirements") and twisting the other (turning “typical” to “proper”) is deceptive at worst, careless writing at best. Why suppress the fact of a reputable source saying that he "complied with all editorial requirements"? Why change a word (from "typical" to "proper") that drastically changes the meaning of what was actually said--especially when you can find no reputable thesaurus to support your "paraphrase"? Because it conflicts with your own POV? --Wade A. Tisthammer 00:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"Why suppress the fact of a reputable source saying that he "complied with all editorial requirements"? " Because it is a partisan source: FeloniousMonk 20:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The OSC is not a partisan organization, it is an independent government agency. Keep in mind I can also cite blogs that accuse anti-creationist sources of "partisan" positions as well . I see no reason to doubt what the OSC report says considering there is nothing to contradict the claim we're talking about. --Wade A. Tisthammer 00:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Something else I found was in the Misplaced Pages entry was this, "no official findings or conclusions were made by the Office of Special Counsel.." The source cited however was a posted comment on a blog. According to WP:RS, "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as sources. This is in part because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking." Notably, the same pro-evolutionary news blog (in a different entry) seems to refer to something called “the OSC opinion.” --Wade A. Tisthammer 19:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

As the article already describes, the OSC letter's author, James McVay, is alleged to have been less than a neutral, honest broker in this matter. Surely you're not suggesting that James McVay's viewpoint, and in turn Sternberg's, be given greater weight than those with the opposing viewpoint (which would include both of Sternberg's former employers, the Council of the Biological Society of Washington and the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History)? If so, why? FeloniousMonk 21:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"is alleged to have been less than a neutral, honest broker" and what reputable source does that come from? An anti-intelligent-design blog? How is that more netural than an independent federal agency? And on what grounds is the OSC author not a "neutral, honest broker"? That a Republican President appointed him? It's easy to find an online source for virtually any opinion--particularly about biases in controversial topics like these. --Wade A. Tisthammer 00:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Pandas Thumb is an acceptable source for what is said there. This is a well-established convention. Furthermore, the majority of the Sternberg debate took place on blogs. As evidence of what the participants each have said, it is no less acceptable than a cites to Sternberg's personal website presented in the article. FeloniousMonk 17:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You conveniently ignored that according to WP:RS that posted comments on blogs are not allowed from being used as sources--which is exactly what your citation did. Please be more careful in the future. --Wade A. Tisthammer 20:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Panda's Thumb is a reliable source in so far as the normal objections to blogs don't apply to it - 1) everything there is vetted before posting and 2) we know exactly who is making the posts and they all come from respectable universities and similar positions. JoshuaZ 17:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I think Wade is talking about the fact that the section linked to is in the form of a comment, rather than a blog posting. However, this isn't a typical anonymous comment to a blog, but rather a "signed" contribution by a contributing editor to PT. So in this case it should be as reliable as any other posting by a known/regular contributor to a reputable publication. Guettarda 18:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, AFAIK WP:RS does not mention that exception you stated. --Wade A. Tisthammer 21:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

RS is a guideline whicb "is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception" This seems to me to be an obvious example of such a case. JoshuaZ 21:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not so obvious. It is true, that one could argue that what Guettarda said is "common sense" and it does not matter if WP:RS mentioned it. But there is a further complication: I also noticed this disclaimer on the upper right side, "The opinions expressed in articles, linked materials, and comments are not necessarily those of PandasThumb.org." It's going to be a bit tricky to link that comment or even the article as being official PT material. --Wade A. Tisthammer 21:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Addendum another fun fact from pandasthumb.org:

As a general disclaimer, please understand that the views expressed by each individual poster here at The Panda’s Thumb are their own. Each contributor is solely responsible for the content of their posts and they do not represent the views of the various organizations and businesses they may be affiliated with.

Given this disclaimer, I don't think we can count that posted comment on the blog to be a reputable source according to WP:RS--unless we can perhaps show that poster PvM (whoever this person is) is a prominent ID opponent? --Wade A. Tisthammer 21:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

These baseless objections to every signle detail are getting ridiculous and disruptive. As already described in the article had you bothered to read it PvM is Pim Van Meurs. And yes, Pim Van Meurs is a notable ID critic. FeloniousMonk 21:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Baseless objections Felonious? You said that "Panda's Thumb is a reliable source." But if the material in question is not Panda's Thumb viewpoint, that's not relevant? You have pretty blatently ignored WP:RS to suit your own POV here (given what it says about blogs). I suspect you are also ignoring WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Please provide me with evidence that Pim Van Meurs is a prominent ID opponent. What anti-ID books has she published, for instance? --Wade A. Tisthammer 00:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a pretty standard disclaimer - many publications say "other than what we explicitly call editorials, this isn't necessarily our opinion". That isn't the same as saying "we will publish any junk that crosses our doorstep". As for PT being a "reliable source" - it's a reliable source of the authorship, etc. It's safe to say that van Meurs said what they say he said. And since the article says "van Meurs says..." the citation is more than adequate. Guettarda 22:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That depends whether van Meurs is a prominent adherent (confer WP:NPOV#Undue_weight). Thus, the mere fact that we can accurately ascertain the authorship via reliable, "reputable" means is not sufficient grounds for being a suitable viewpoint in Misplaced Pages. And thus one cannot just cite a blog enty as a "reliable source" and claim it as a suitable viewpoint to include in Misplaced Pages. --Wade A. Tisthammer 00:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Publisher's Review Policies

On 7 September, the publisher of the journal, the Council of the Biological Society of Washington, released a statement repudiating the article:

The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history.

The same statement vowed that proper review procedures would be followed in the future and endorsed a resolution published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which claims that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting intelligent design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2005/02/title_4.html

As managing editor, Sternberg states he chose to administer the review himself as the most qualified editor in his opinion (having two PhD's in evolutionary biology), rather than involving an associate editor. He claimed to have also checked with a Council member. , DLH 20:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Critics vs Supporters

In a review of the article Alan Gishlick, Nick Matzke, and Wesley R. Elsberry claimed it contained poor scholarship, that it failed to cite and specifically rebut the actual data supporting evolution, and "constructed a rhetorical edifice out of omission of relevant facts, selective quoting, bad analogies, knocking down straw men, and tendentious interpretations." Further examination of the article revealed that it was substantially similar to previously published articles. Supporters counter the arguments, claiming ad hominem attacks. Setting the Record Straight on Sternberg

Propose grouping material in the following section, including Sternberg's statement on his own position.

Structuralism vs Barminology

Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary). Dr. Todd Charles Wood of the Baraminology Study Group describe's Sternberg's skepticism about young earth creationism, but willingness to critique it. Critics of Meyer's paper believe that Sternberg himself was biased in the matter. In 2002, Sternberg presented a lecture on intelligent design at a conference closed to all but intelligent design advocates. Sternberg is also a member of the editorial board of the Baraminology Study Group, an organization with a creationist agenda. These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association. The Baraminology Study Group's official position is that Sternberg is not a creationist and acts primarily as a skeptical reviewer . DLH 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association." That's spoon-feeding the reader a particular POV while retroactively trying to poison the well. Even presenting it as an attributed quote is questionable, since it adds nothing but a peripheral viewpoint to narrowly focused article. Whatever terms Sternberg describes himself are beside the point, which is that he's a ID proponent and so had a dog in the race when he decided to step outside the typical editorial practices to see a paper of a fellow traveler published that he knew would stand no chance otherwise. "Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary)" is a complete non sequitur here. FeloniousMonk 21:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Propose grouping material on the distrimination issues at Smithsonian Institute in the following section:

Descrimination Charges

As part of a subsequent labor claim, Sternberg claims that he was "targeted for retaliation and harassment" and cites a letter by the United States Office of Special Counsel as supporting his version of events . Pim Van Meurs and other critics have called into question this claim, asserting that the Office of Special Counsel lacked jurisdiction over the matter, that the Smithsonian was never given a chance to respond, and that no official findings or conclusions were made by the Office of Special Counsel.

In August, 2005 the Office of Special Counsel dropped Sternberg's religious discrimination complaint against the Smithsonian Institution. It was determined that as an unpaid research associate at the Smithsonian, Sternberg was not actually an employee, and thus the Office of Special Counsel had no jurisdiction.

Critics have suggested that the Office of Special Counsel itself was biased in its initial handling of the matter, given the links between the religious right and the Republican Party, with George W. Bush appointee James McVay authoring its opinion. DLH 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Corrections

Mark Souder was reelected in 2006 and is not a "lame duck". The Drug Policy Subcommittee has oversight responsibility over the Smithsonian institute. This was a Staff Report, NOT by Souder or Santorum. Sauder & Santorum conducted a joint investigation in 2005. The report addresses discrimination charges raised by Sternberg & the Office of Special Counsel.DLH 23:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Added following section

Notes and references

1. Summary of key points regarding publication of the Meyer paper
2. Cite error: The named reference McDiarmid reviewers was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Roy McDiarmid, “Re: Request for information,” January 28, 2005, 2:25 PM, email to Hans Sues.
4. Smithsonian's Top Officials Permit the Demotion and Harassment of Scientist Skeptical of Darwinian Evolution, US House Committee on Government Reform, Dec. 2006, p 24
5. Appendix to Intolerance and the Politicization of Science at the Smithsonian
6. Sternberg Summary Key Points
8. http://www.rsternberg.net/Structuralism.htm
9. http://www.rsternberg.net/BSG.htm Letter from the Baraminology Study Group August 26, 2004
10. http://www.idthefuture.com/2005/12/get_busy_livin_or_get_busy_sme.html

Swamping the talk page

Apparently DLH thinks established contributors here have nothing better to do, like actually contributing to the encyclopedia, than to respond to a laundry list of objections and proposals. Most of which are tendentious; twisting the facts to present the possibility that a pro-ID was peer reviewed (never mind that saying something was peer reviewed implies that it was published).

Considering this method, endorsed by 9 out of 10 trolls and pov pushers at other ID related articles, I'm inclined to move any discussion of additional issues to a subpage to minimize the disruption of this page. Any thought or comments from other long term contributors? FeloniousMonk 20:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There had been NO discussion at all until I initiated this page noting my changes. After several reverts of major editing efforts I moved the sections here for discussion. Please address. I'll come back after several days.DLH 20:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's because the article is accurate, well-supported. It's only when an ID proponent showed up trying to spin the facts to imply that there was a properly peer reviewed ID article when there wasn't that discussion became necessary. The fact remains there is no properly peer reviewed ID article in the scientific press, and all personal objections and statements of all of this movement's Sternbergs do not change that fact. Unless you have some actual new, credible and neutral evidence for us to consider here, there's very little here to discuss. You've brought us nothing new. FeloniousMonk 20:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

DLH's proposed changes to content & structure

Here is DLH's proposed article structure and section titles:

1. Meyer's Paper Published/Withdrawn
2. Outside Peer reviewed?
3. Publisher vs Editor
4. Critics vs Supporters
5. Structuralism vs Barminology
6. Descrimination Charges
7. Notes and references

There are NPOV issues with his section titles. They violate WP:NPOV by imparting undue weight to Sternberg's viewpoint, placing it on par with that of his employer, when it isn't. DLH's choice of verbiage here couchs the controversy in terms favorable to Sternberg and the ID crowd as well.

So, starting with the section Meyer's Paper Published/Withdrawn an obvious issue is that DLH uses rhetoric like "Following a firestorm of protest" then in the next section Outside Peer reviewed? jumps right into Sternberg's rebuttal of his employer's withdrawl of the article before even allowing the reader to see the publishers statement Sternberg is rebutting! DLH also wrongly implies in the section title "Outside Peer reviewed?" that there may indeed be a properly peer reviewed ID paper; a specific goal of the ID movement since its inception. The impetus for the controversy this article describes is that there are none, so I see no reason to help them by implying that there are here. Next, in Publisher vs Editor DLH finally presents the publishers statement that that Sternberg rejects; getting the order backward.

In the Critics vs Supporters section DLH favors Sternberg supporters by making a link to their writings an actual spelled out part of the content, "Setting the Record Straight on Sternberg", not a footnote or external link as he does for critics. In Structuralism vs Barminology DLH's use of an editorial aside, "These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association," spoon-feeds the reader a particular POV while retroactively poisoning the well. It adds nothing but a peripheral viewpoint to narrowly focused article. "Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary)" is a complete non sequitur and beside the point. The point is that Sternberg is a ID proponent and so had a dog in the race when he decided to step outside the typical editorial practices to see a paper of a fellow traveler published that he knew would stand no chance otherwise.

Descrimination Charges, aside from misspelling discrimination, isn't so bad since DLH more or less used the existing content. Notes and references balance problems arise when DLH favors pro-Sternberg cites with full descriptions instead of the conventional footnote style cites I've seen him do elsewhere.

That covers my initial objections quickly looking over DLH's proposals. FeloniousMonk 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Smithsonian controversy

OK. This is the sentence with which I take issue:

Nick Matzke, Jason Rosenhouse and other critics have commented that the Office of Special Counsel itself appears biased in its initial handling of the matter, given the links between the religious right and the Republican Party, with George W. Bush appointee James McVey authoring its opinion.

Here are the problems with the sentence as it currently reads:

• the "comment" about the bias is parroted verbatim in both referenced sites
• the "links" between the religious right and the Republican Party are (if you happen to believe that little fairy tale) not relevant
• the fact that McVey was appointed by Bush is only peripherally relevant
• the idea that the OSC's opinion was biased is very much an allegation (hint: saying that it is raining outside is a comment; accusing someone of shirking responsibility, misusing his position, abusing power and/or breaking the law is in fact an allegation)

Here are the problems with the talkreason page that is used for the primary support:

• it completely ignores that O'Reilly in fact had the basic facts correct (he may have been selective, but then isn't everybody), what Rosenhouse argues as "central facts" are really just details
• Rosenhouse clearly does not know what facism is
• He finishes up with a nice ad hominem attack on O'Reilly which really casts into doubt the rest of what he says

Given the above, I have restated the sentence.

Here is the updated version:

Nick Matzke and Jason Rosenhouse have alleged that the Office of Special Counsel itself appears biased in its initial handling of the matter, since the opinion of the Office of Special Counsel was authored by George W. Bush appointee James McVey.

This properly conveys that stating McVey was involved in wrong doing is in fact an allegation and cuts out the nonsense about the links between the religious right and the Republicans. El Cubano 23:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not an imprvement - "alleged" is a word to avoid. "Comment" is far better. Limiting it to Matzke and Rosenhouse minimises the position - they weren't the only people making the point, they were the two quoted. The issue of the link between the religious right and the Republican party is very relevant. The fact that McVey is a Bush appointee is relevant, given the role of other unqualified Bush appointees in attacking science. They didn't comment that the opinion is biased, but rather, that it appeared biased. Guettarda 03:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The original sentence accurately reflects the comments made. El Cubano doesn't seem to get that as editors here it is not within our purview per to make judgements based on whether a notable commentor uses or misuse rhetoric: he needs to read WP:ATT. I think his change to the article whitewashes the comments and your reasoning for doing so given here is weak, and he appears to be grasping at straws in an attempt to bowdlerize criticisms. I've reverted it for being weasely, inaccurate, and creating an issue of undue weight. FeloniousMonk 03:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not much of an explanation other than "He's wrong!" Care to be more specific? El Cubano 03:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

How not? I addressed every one of your objections. Guettarda 03:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

My bad. I only saw Felonious' comment and missed yours. El Cubano 03:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, "word to avoid" does not mean "word to never use". In this case, allege is the proper word. A comment is a remark. An allegation is an assertion without proof. While what he said is a comment, it is also an allegation. In fact, the word allege is a more precise description of what he said. I can live with the "others", though I'd like to see more links. Giving two names and then adding others when of the two named, one just copied verbatim or quoted from the other is not really accurate. The only relevance of the link between the religious right and the Republican party is that no such link exists, except in the fantasies of those looking for a conspiracy. In fact, I did leave in the part about McVey being a Bush appointee, precisely because I know that it is the view to which the critics hold that Bush doesn't do a good job of choosing appointees who agree with them. Whether they said that it is biased or appeared bias does not change that the statement has no basis in fact and is an assertion made without proof-and hence an allegation. By using comment in place of the more correct allege, it appears that you are the one trying to whitewash. So, can we get to a version of this sentence that is in fact neutral? El Cubano 03:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"Allege" is misused when it is used to imply a lack of credibility in the claim...which is just what you did here, attacked Rosenhouse's credibility. In addition they have no alleged that the OSC "appears biased", they said so. This is different from saying that the OSC was biased. For that "alleged" might be a better word than "commented", although still not good from the "words to avoid" perspective. Even if "allege" wasn't a word to avoid, it would still be totally inaccurate here.

"The only relevance of the link between the religious right and the Republican party is that no such link exists, except in the fantasies of those looking for a conspiracy." That's a ridiculous statement. Are you calling David Kuo a "fantasi ... looking for a conspiracy"? James Dobson? Karl Rove?

"So, can we get to a version of this sentence that is in fact neutral?" Sure. All you have to do is stop inserting POV into the sentence and it should be fine. Guettarda 05:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

But the claim is not credible. That is like saying Michael appears to have molested children instead of Michael Jackson has molested children. Saying that something appears to be, is at the very least an implication that it is. So, I ask, what is their evidence the OSC was biased? That the opinion was written by a Bush appointee? Besides, the fact they claim that the OSC appeared biased, instead of flat out stating that it was, indicates they they themselves know that the claim is at the very least shaky.

If the fact that Kuo, Dobson and Rove all know or work for or have worked for Bush indicates a "link" between the religious rights and Republicans then, what does that say about the religious left and the Democrats? I mean, looking at the associations there, the Democrats are far more driven by religious interests than the Republicans. Of course, it matters not, since the fact the Kuo, Dobson and Rove have connections to Bush has absolutely nothing to do with McVey's appointment.

Ditto with the POV from the other side. El Cubano 06:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"But the claim is not credible". For one, the claim is extremely credible. Look at the report and the analyses. But more importantly, that's utterly irrelevant. Your MJ example is a straw man - we are not saying "the OSC is biased", we are saying that R & M said that the OSC appears biased.

"the fact they claim that the OSC appeared biased, instead of flat out stating that it was, indicates they they themselves know that the claim is at the very least shaky". Really? No. The fact is that there are other possible explanations - the OSC might not be biased, but might be acting under the instruction of someone higher up in government. The end result would be the same. The bias is obvious in the report. The only question is whether the bias is that of the purported author of the report, or was the result to political pressure on the OSC.

"hat is their evidence the OSC was biased?" - an analysis on the report. Didn't you read the articles?

"If the fact that Kuo, Dobson and Rove all know or work for or have worked for Bush indicates a "link" between the religious rights and Republicans then, what does that say about the religious left and the Democrats?" No, I am talking about statements by Kuo, Dobson and Rove. You said that allegations of links were "fantasies of those looking for a conspiracy". Are you calling Kuo, Dobson and Rove "fantasi ... looking for a conspiracy"?

"I mean, looking at the associations there, the Democrats are far more driven by religious interests than the Republicans". Even if this were true, how does that relate to this article? "Of course, it matters not, since the fact the Kuo, Dobson and Rove have connections to Bush has absolutely nothing to do with McVey's appointment." Please, read what I wrote. It was a comment on your "fantasies of those looking for a conspiracy". All I am asking is whether you consider Kuo, Dobson and Rove "fantasi ... looking for a conspiracy"? If not, then what are your grounds for removing the information from the article? Guettarda 06:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Based on the comment of another editor (Seraphimblade), I am considering making a RfC about this. El Cubano 05:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

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