User talk:Sutyarashi - Misplaced Pages

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Punjabi Muslims Page

I added Barha Sayyids multiple times on the page because they were descendants of Punjabis who migrated to Muzaffarnagar from their ancestral villages in Patiala

Instead of removing edits without giving a valid reason, leave a message on my talk page and I will make amends

Regards Jat1321 (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Barhas are a well known royal house of subcontinent who claimed to be Sayyids. Add a reliable source on that they ever spoke Punjabi; and I will not undo your additions. Thanks Sutyarashi (talk) 16:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Abul Fazl (2004). The Āʼīn-i Akbarī (2nd ed.). Sang-e-Meel Publications. ISBN 9693515307.

Sultan Muqarrab Khan moved to draftspace

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Fan POV Lahore

I noticed that you removed the FanPOV template I placed on the Lahore article. The article has several instances of Fan POV such as the Education part. I have placed the template again, please remove it only after fixing the afore mentioned problem. Flamealpha123 (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I must've removed it by mistake. It was not intentional. Regards.Sutyarashi (talk) 15:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Going through page history, I found out that it was done by User:Agent05032, not by my edits. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

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Greeting

Hi, hope you are doing well, all I can say is that I loved your contributions on articles about South Asia, specially the well-researched your contributions in the Punjab and Pakistan articles. Some days ago, you were sceptical to the changing of the article Taank Kingdom to a more common name in all sources I have found. I think it's the better etymology for the article since it's the WP:COMMONNAME and the name "Taank" is virtually nonexistent in literature and sources. Regards Jamal047 (talk) 18:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. The variations regarding its name are due to transliteration from Chinese. This kingdom is so poorly documented that its probably the only source are travels of Xuanzeng. As creator of the page, I know that information about it is scarce and I had to depend on colonial era documents. To double check, I did visited Google ngram and although I couldn't find exactly "Taank kingdom" or "Takka kingdom" due to being so unknown, I did, surprisingly, found usage of another variant "Taki" (Taki-Desa) to be much more than either Taank or Takka. Now, though these may have other meanings too apart from this kingdom, but it gives a fairly clear idea about which is more used. This name is also given in multiple already cited sources i.e and So, if you're so insisted on WP:COMMON then I guess the page should be moved to Taki kingdom. The alternative is keeping the title as it's, till more information about this particular state comes to view. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Handa, Om Chanda; Hāṇḍā, Omacanda (2001). Temple Architecture of the Western Himalaya: Wooden Temples. Indus Publishing. p. 27. ISBN 978-81-7387-115-3.
Grewal, J. S. (1998-10-08). The Sikhs of the Punjab. Cambridge University Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-0-521-63764-0.
Li Rongxi (1996), The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions, Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai and Numata Center for Buddhist Translation and Research, Berkeley, pp. 97–100
Schwartzberg, Joseph E. (1978). A Historical atlas of South Asia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 26.
Kumar, Raj (2008). History Of The Chamar Dynasty : (From 6Th Century A.D. To 12Th Century A.D.). Gyan Publishing House. ISBN 978-81-7835-635-8.
Balogh, Dániel. Hunnic Peoples in Central and South Asia: Sources for their Origin and History. Barkhuis. p. 279. ISBN 978-94-93194-01-4.
Cunningham, Sir Alexander (1871). The Ancient Geography of India: I. The Buddhist Period, Including the Campaigns of Alexander, and the Travels of Hwen-Thsang. Trübner and Company.

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Happy New Year!

Sutyarashi,
Thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages, and a Happy New Year to you and yours! Packer&Tracker (remark) 10:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

– Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year}} to user talk pages.

Packer&Tracker (remark) 10:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I am thankful to you for appreciating my contributions and a very Happy Near Year to you too!Sutyarashi (talk) 10:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

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...And that IP is now blocked for a month as a sockpuppet, so nothing to worry about. —C.Fred (talk) 18:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

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Re: Sindhis, Removal of information on opinionated expressions

Hello Sutyarashi, I hope you are doing well.

I reverted you're edits on Sindhis, i noticed that you removed a core piece of Information on Sindhi ethnic group.

You removed the following:

"Sindhi people have been native to Sindh throughout history, apart from that their historical region has always came from the South-eastern side of Balochistan, the Bahawalpur region of Punjab and the Kutch region of Gujarat, India."

This information was correct because if you look historical Sindh maps then the region really expanded to where till Kutch.
Incase you got a little confused, you can check the following articles and their maps:

Thanks for cooperating.
~TheBushSush (talk) 10:40, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

For reference see the maps below:

1.
2. Map of the Chachas circa 650 CE.png

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Editing the lead

Please note that the MOS:LEAD summarises the article body. If you do not have an interest in reading the body, I suggest that you do not edit the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, first of all, I have been editing that particular page for a year, so actually your claim of having no interest in reading the body is quite ridiculous. Next, that particular line actually went like this (which I restored) before it was changed a month ago; after which you've been repeatedly resisting to change it to WP:NPOV. Also, that was the policy of a particular Sultan, and even that was reversed after his death. So, your insistence on adding into lead is actual "nonsense" (which you called such as in your edit summary). Sutyarashi (talk) 14:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you have edited before. That doesn't concern me. I have had to revert random IPs changing the wording numerous times in the last few months. Finally, when I see a registered editor doing the same edit, and calling it "neutral language", that is more than I can handle. There is no such thing as "neutral language" on Misplaced Pages. What we have is WP:NPOV, which means do what the the balance of RS do. Not our own idea of "neutral".

If you are reverting to the original wording or some older wording, you can say so in the edit summary, and if possible, give the revision number. Then it becomes the responsibility of whoever wants a change to justify their wording. As far as I can see, the wording is amply justified by what is in the Shah Mir dynasty#Sikander section. Your claim that it was only "one particular Sultan" that did it doesn't cut any ice. Once they are converted, they are converted. Another Sultan doesn't have anything more to do. The net effect of the dynasty is that they forcibly converted the entire population of the Valley except for the die-hard Pandits. The Sultan Sikandar section makes it clear that it was largely a forced conversion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:35, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, yes, I actually meant WP:NPOV by neutral language, though bad wording, probably. Still, the present sentence gives impression on the readers that all Sultans of Kashmir actively tried to forcefully convert people; far from truth, to say. Mind if it's changed into something like:During the rule of the dynasty, Islam became dominant faith in the Kashmir valley, with references? Also, you're ignoring the role of Sufis in proselytizing the religion, especially that of Mir Sayyid Ali Hamadani. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

"Dominant" doesn't represent the fact that practically the entire population got converted. Sufis can't convert 97% of the population. It happened nowhere else in India. Why should it have happened in Kashmir? How do you explain the hard fact that the Pandits, who didn't want to convert, were forced to leave the Valley? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Baloch, N. A.; Rafi, A. Q. (1998). History of civilizations of Central Asia, v. 4: THE REGIONS OF SIND, BALUCHISTAN, MULTAN AND KASHMIR: THE HISTORICAL, SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC SETTING (PDF). Unesco. p. 305. ISBN 978-92-3-103467-1.

@Kautilya3, it did happen at many places; Sindh, Bengal, Gilgit, Hyderabad... Delhi too had Muslim majority for centuries. Your Pandit exodus mention seems laughable. I mean literally how's a 1990s event related to a dynasty that ended in 1586?? You overlooked millions of Kashmiris who left valley during Dogra rule and 1947 Jammu Muslim massacres, though. Don't know why but it gives a feeling that you're writing that with a specific agenda, sorry to say, 'cause you're a respectable and old Wikipidian. Repeating though, wouldn't it be much better if we just write that Islam became majority faith, and leave it on readers to how much delve in it? It's just lead sentences, after all. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 seems like that I wasn't the only one who thought it, and @TrangaBellam has already restored it on the article. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

The first stone sculpture of Kashmir—a four-armed Brahma, argued to be one of the finest in the history of the subcontinent—was sculpted by son of a Buddhist Sanghapati in 1409 and dedicated to Sikandar. How does this sculpture, crafted in the fag end of an allegedly iconoclastic reign, help challenge simplistic notions of religious persecution?

TrangaBellam (talk) 19:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Sultan Sikandar didn't write an autobiography. But his contemporary, Timur, did. He writes:

The Raja of Jammu, who was wounded and prisoner ... agreed to pay certain sums of money and to become a Musulman if I would spare his life. I instantly ordered him to be taught the creed, and he repeated it and became a Muhammadan. Among these infidels there is no greater crime and abomination than eating the flesh of a cow or killing a cow, but he ate the flesh in the company of Musulmans. When he had thus been received into the fold of the faithful, I ordered my surgeons to attend to his wounds, and I honoured him with a robe and royal favours.

How did Timur know he had to do this? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:48, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

In all probabilities, what we know as Timur's autobiography is a fabrication, drafted centuries after he had died. All serious (academic) historians of the era accept that it was a sixteenth century creation and ignore it. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 because he was invading India?? And he knew how one became Muslim? Also, how can you say that it's related to Sultans of Kashmir? Your analogy is absurd. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

That is a specific technology of conversion that was apparently practised widely at the time. In Kashmir, we have tradition that says it was used on a mass scale to convert the entire population. I already said that Sikandar didn't write an autobiogaphy but Timur did. Sikandar paid tribute to Timur, sending Zain-ul-Abidin (reportedly) to Samarkhand.

Not satisfied with these measures, the king is said to have eventually proclaimed all over his kingdom that his Hindu subjects should choose between Islam, exile or the sword. Large scale conversions to Islam followed and many people escaped out of Kashmir. ‘By the end of his reign all Hindu inhabitants of the Valley, except the Brahmans, had probably adopted Islam’ (Lawrence 1909, p. 24). Tradition has it that only eleven Brahman families survived in Kashmir when Sikandar died in A.D. 1413–14 (see Lawrence 1895, p. 191).

Zain-ul-Abidin invited these Brahmans (later called "Pandits") back to Kashmir and employed them in the state. He has been praised by "bud shah" by the Pandits. But scholars say that it was just a necessity because the Brahmans knew how to run the state machinery, the others didn't. Zain-ul-Abidin raided all the way to Lo Manthang, north of Khatmandu. During his reign, the Kargil rulers at Kartse were convered, and Islam was consolidated in Baltistan. About a hundred years of history is missing in all the chronicles of all the Buddhist regions. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

What I am saying is that Timur did not write any autobiography; the text that is attributed to as Timur's autobiography in pop-history books — Tuzūkāt-i Taymūrī — is accepted by almost all historians as a sixteenth century fabrication which was explicitly intended for circulation in the Mughal cosmopolis.

The rest is, err, irrelevant? TrangaBellam (talk) 11:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Malfuzat-i Timuri is the name I am familiar with. And I was quoting from Andre Wink. I know you don't give him much due, but certainly not a "pop historian".

All indications are that the Shah Miris exerted an extremely strong Islamisation drive, well beyond anything witnessed anywhere else in the subcontinent. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Madan, T. N. (2011), "Kashmiri Pandits: History and Social Organization", The Hindu Householder: The T.N. Madan Omnibus, Oxford University Press, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198069409.001.0001, ISBN 9780198069409
Howard, Neil (1997), "What happened between 1450 and 1550 AD? and other questions from the history of Ladakh", in Henry Osmaston; Nawang Tsering; International Association for Ladakh Studies (eds.), Recent Research on Ladakh 6: Proceedings of the Sixth International Colloquium on Ladakh, Leh 1993, Motilal Banarsidass Publ., pp. 121–138, ISBN 978-81-208-1432-5

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Adding infobox image to the article covering the Dogra-Tibetan War

Hello! I wanted to get your opinion on a discussion I started regarding adding artwork depicting Zorawar Singh's army in Ladakh as an infobox image, please see: Talk:Dogra–Tibetan War#Adding a depiction of Zorawar Singh's army in Ladakh (not sure if I am doing this correctly, I haven't started a consensus building query on Misplaced Pages before) ThethPunjabi (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

History of Punjab page

I've noticed you've questioned the factual validity of the Vardhana empire, Eastern Punjab republics and the Tomara/Katoch dynasties section. What is the reason for this? Trigarta (talk) 17:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:TONE and WP:Synthesis has been corrected for in all 3 topics, So warning should be removed now. Thanks Trigarta (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@Trigarta: your edits, specifically on the lead, have created a mess. For example you added this line: It contained many heavily Punjab influenced dynasties such as the reign of Razia Sultana, the Sayyid dynasty and the Tughlaq dynasty.

This is not only unverified and ethnic POV pushing, but infact a WP:HOAX. Please refrain from doing original research and adding such claims in the lead. Sutyarashi (talk) 08:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

It is not WP:HOAX, if you asked me to provide all the sources I would have, rather than deleting them. The Tughlaqs hail from Multan and Eastern Punjab and the Sayyids have theirs roots as Punjabi Kokhars with their home town in South Punjab. Razia sultana gained most of her support from Punjab aswell. Trigarta (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Reward

		A plate of Samosa for you
		Hello, I've noticed you've been working hard on improving the Jat Muslim page. I have been reading what you've been adding and found your additions very fascinating and informative. To show appreciation, I'm leaving a plate of samosa for you. Enjoy! Thank you. ThethPunjabi (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC) For more Indian dishes, visit the Kitchen of WikiProject India.

ThethPunjabi (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

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Shah Miris connection with Gabari Sultans

Shah Mir Page Misplaced Pages :There are two theories regarding Shah Mir's origin. Some Persian chronicles of Kashmir describe Shah Mir as a descendant of the Gabri Swati rulers of Swat Historian A. Q. Rafiqi thinks it more likely that he was a descendant of Persian or Turkic immigrants to Swat. It has also been suggested that he belonged to a Sufi or Qadiri family. Some scholars state that the Panj-gabbar valley, the location described by Jonaraja, was actually peopled by Khasas and so ascribe a Khasa ethnicity to Shah Mir. Most modern historians accept the Swati origins of Shah Mir. Kashmiri scholar N. K. Zutshi, having critically examined the sources, reconciles the two versions by noting that the Persian chronicles mentions Swadgir rather than Swat, which he interprets as Swadgabar, meaning "suburbs of Gabar", which coincides with Jonaraja's description of Panchagahvara-Simani (on the borders of Panchagagvara).

My comments : When three families Gabaris, Mumayalis and Mitravis came to Hazara from Swat then they were combinely called Swatis. Brother Look at this if there is something to argue on it then tell me so I stop editing that page again n again. As Gabaris are Persians and it is proved in recent DNA that you can find on google. Shah Mir was Gabari as accepted my many historians. Thank You Gibari Sultan (talk) 13:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gibari Sultan I have reported you for explicitly showing sockpuppet behaviour. You're free to defend yourself there. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

why you are not replying to my questions instead of reporting, Means you want to impose your knowledge on others Gibari Sultan (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

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Early Mughal Sikh wars

Hello. I saw you changed some numbers. I have provided page numbers here and links at the bottom of the article in question. On page 211 Max Arthur provides casualties. The number is 50,000 for that battle. On page 96 he provides 7,000 for one battle. On page 149 the author of The Sikh Gurus he provides a number for another battle which is 15,000. So what we can do is not combine all the casualties but just list them out for each battle.

Ex. Battle of Amritsar 7,000

Battle of Rohilla 15,000

Battle of Lahira 35,000

Battle of Kartarpur 50,000

Is the above fine with you? I will provide adequate citation from reliable sources

P.S Gurbilas is about Guru Hargobind not Guru Gobind Singh. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 18:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Also @Sutyarashi maybe we can use Gurbilas as reference for the numbers but say according to Sikh sources. So for example According to Sikh Sources: 75,000 CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@CanadianSingh1469 you cannot merge all sources to give a combine no., this is original research. Also, Gurbilas does not seems to be a historical account. You should find a reliable reference (see WP:HISTRS). Even the macauliffe source which is frequently used in the article is outdated by more than a century. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Just because a source is old does not make it unreliable. What I an suggesting is listing out each individual casualty for the battles per Max Arthur and not combining them. Is that ok with you?

To quote from the Encyclopaedia of Sikhism, “ GURBILAS CHHEVIN PATSHAHl, lit. the (life)play of the Sixth Guru, is a versified biography of Guru Hargobind…” CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 09:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

It really depends on how much reliable Macauliffe is; but it is better if individual numbers are separately listed. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I will go ahead with it. So is it a firm no on using Gurbilas because I think it can be used by saying per Sikh sources beside it. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 09:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because it is more of an epic than a historical account. If you wish, you can have a separate section on what Sikh biographies say but not in the info box. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for agreeing and being so helpful. I wish there were more editors like you instead of people who just revert and don’t elaborate. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 10:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi By the way you seem to know a lot of history about the Mughals. Could you point me to some sources talking about Zabardast Khan who was a governor of Lahore during Guru Gobind Singh’s time. Thanks in advance. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 10:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding deletion of talk page comment

Hello, I noticed you left a second-level warning notice on my talk page meanwhile when I left a general caution message you removed and deleted it, Isn't it a biased thing to do? ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 17:36, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Starkex Because you accused me of mass deleting content, which never happened. On the other hand, you are adding material about which there is no reliable source, that's why I left a message at you talk page. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I understood all that and pardon if I committed an mistake but on the other hand removing Talk page comments is not a polite way of solving editorial disputes. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 17:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

That's only if that those messages have merit. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

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Concern regarding Draft:Vision Technologies

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May 2023

There are 3 paragraphs which talk about atrocities. Why do you want more? You are not helping yourself by merely restoring sock edits here. Source does not say "400,000 Hindu people" were killed, nor there is any relevance of "Maharashtra Purana". Since the page is not about atrocities, any deeply cherrypicked focus on atrocities is WP:UNDUE. If you want to restore any content then write it on your own by carefully verifying the source and avoiding any kind of repetition. I would also add that a number of the sources you are restoring are outdated. Editorkamran (talk) 00:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
@Editorkamran which sock you're talking about? The IP with which you were edit warring earlier has no block history. Please avoid accusing others of Sockpuppetry without any evidence, as it may lead you being indeffed.

As for content, I cannot understand what are your exact objections over it. The section clearly discusses the Burgi war crimes, and it should cover all aspects of it. Nothing is WP:UNDUE as the sources are same over which whole article stands., neither I'm aware of any WP guidelines which requires me writing the content from scratch. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

That IP is a sock puppet. See here.

There are already 3 paragraphs which talk about atrocities. There is no need to add more. What you restored was almost 80% repetition of what already exists in the article. Editorkamran (talk) 01:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran your link only shows a user requesting increased page protection, and no evidence that IP was identified as a sock. Anyways, I think there should be no problem with additional content (excluding repetition) in the section. There is no policy that a section can not be of more than 3 paragraphs. Sutyarashi (talk) 03:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Then go and report the person who concluded that the IP is a sock and also report the admin who agreed with the finding instead of creating your own imagination.

There is a policy called WP:UNDUE. Read again, I am saying you cannot REPEAT the same content. I already said "What you restored was almost 80% repetition of what already exists in the article." Editorkamran (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran there is no need of reporting anyone, because IP was not identified as a sock to start with. Instead of going WP:PERSONAL, just identify the "80% parts" which you think were repeated Otherwise there is no reason for objection over the sourced content.

For example, there is no mention of rapes committed by Marathas in the current section nor of the resulting migration of people. If you failed to describe why you do not want these sections then I will move ahead for adding. Remember that WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for removal. Sutyarashi (talk) 10:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Since the IP was dynamic, there was no need to block it as sock.

WP:ILIKEIT was clearly your reason to restore repetitive content which misrepresents sources.

"Contemporary accounts of the invasions report mass gang rape against women, and mutilation of victims by the Marathas which included cutting off their hands and noses." This the only sentence which hasn't been mentioned. Everything else is already there. Editorkamran (talk) 11:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran socks are immediately blocked even if they are IPs. This is just your speculation that it was not identified as a sock because it was dynamic so that you can remove their edits. And no, I don't want the content in the section because "I like it" but because there is no justification for its removal. Except the 400,000 figure, no statement was repeated in the section. Sutyarashi (talk) 03:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The paragraph replicated earlier paragraphs.

"During their occupation, the Marathas are said to have perpetrated massacres against the local population" vs "During that period of invasion by the Marathas, warriors called as "Bargis", perpetrated atrocities against the local population of Bengalis and Biharis."

"Many of the Bengali Hindus in western Bengal also fled to take shelter in East Bengal, fearing for their lives in the wake of the Maratha attacks."vs "Many of the Bengalis in western Bengal also fled to take shelter in East Bengal, fearing for their lives in the wake of the Maratha attacks"

"Marathas intended to establish their rule in western Bengal by attracting the local Hindu zamindars against the Muslim Nawab but the high atrocities against the Hindu population diminished all the possibilities of such an alliance" vs "Zamindars outside the affected districts and also from the districts that involved this conflict were affected by the Maratha raids."

Entirely repetitive. Editorkamran (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran still there is no mention of mass rapes, which wee widely reported and are supported by credible sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 06:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

That's what I said here. Have included it back now. Editorkamran (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Greetings

Hi, hope you are fine. You grilled the chap Gibari Sultan well. I think he would have learnt his lesson. Thanks for the help. I am editing Swati page with Modern anthro and genetic proofs hope you wont mind. Too much edit wars on page. I would appreciate if you understand. Thanks for the help with this bully again I am really grateful. Regards Azmarai76 (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Avoiding cut-and-paste moves

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. It appears that you tried to give Trigarta Kingdom a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Trigarta. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Misplaced Pages has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases for registered users, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Misplaced Pages:Requests for history merge. Thank you. DanCherek (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @DanCherek. My purpose actually wasn't to move the whole article, I just wanted to split it into the Kingdom which was mentioned in Hindu mythology and the actual, historical people. Sutyarashi (talk) 07:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Vision Technologies

Hello, Sutyarashi. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Vision Technologies".

In accordance with our policy that Misplaced Pages is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Misplaced Pages, and happy editing. Liz 22:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Unblock request

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Sutyarashi (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Caught by an open proxy block but this host or IP is not an open proxy. My IP address is ___39.41.238.50____. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Since you can edit from other IPs as your account is not directly blocked, I am procedurally declining this request. It's difficult to get these blocks lifted as a practical matter; I would instead recommend you go to WP:IPECPROXY and follow those instructions to request IP block exemption so this won't be a problem. — Daniel Case (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Sutyarashi (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Let the block expire. It's over in less than 4 days. The IP address has been confirmed rightly or wrongly, as using VPN. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist: If you would look at the full block log for that IP you'd see that the block has regularly been reimposed. Hence the solution I have suggested to him, like so many others in this situation. Daniel Case (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 25

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Punjabi Muslims, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Gujrat.

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Hello

You made revisions on the article of Arain, whereas it is written on the article that Arain are originally from Sindh who moved to punjab, so if according to you khokhars are native of punjab, then why can't Arain be native of Sindh? The fact that they still live in Sindh and speak sindhi as their first language. So stop reverting my edits. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 provide reliable sources stating Arains to be Sindhis. Origins matter little because humans can migrate from one place to other. Kalhoras, for example, are from Arabia. Does it mean that they are Arabs too? Sutyarashi (talk) 06:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

the source is the Arain article itself which clearly mentions "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached" now origin does matter, when such people still live in their native place, how can you not count them? Don't be biased, also how come in the case if khokhars origins matters but in Arain it doesn't, how? And for your kind info Kalhoras are not from Arabia, they are jats read the page again which mentions Kalhora to be of jats, as it was and is a trend for local people to be associated with arabs specially the kings and rulers. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 17:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 provide references stating Arains to be Sindhis. Your talk page has multiple messages regarding that you should avoid unsourced claims, so you need to act on them. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

And if Kalhoras are actually from Arabia and some people of Kalhoras still live in arabia then of course they would be arabs. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 17:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't make changes

You keep on making unnecessary changes on langah and dodai, first you have issues with citations now you have issue with one word being written in first than other, you are funny. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I have left message on your talk page. Read it so you can understand why your edits are disruptive. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

you have your own rules, which I don't follow your so biased Tiggered person, is there any way to talk someone educated unbiased person regarding these two articles, I mean are you serious? Why you are hurting by having a sindhi name first than punjabi? 🤷🏻‍♂️ second the dodais tribes is by doda sumra, and sumras are sindhi, but I'm not mentioning dodais as sindhi they are merely branch of sumra as they are his descendants, and there are many baloch and punjabi tribes which have origins in sindh or are jats And are still living in Sindh, Dodai maybe assimilated into balochs in south Punjab but in Sindh they are not and there many sindhi hindu dodais living in India as well. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

and apparently I seems you only believe in sources written by a person who is from Pakistan and India. Which makes difficult to find many citations . AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

.

Is the book "the Musalman races found in Sind, balochistan and afghanistan" by sheikh sadiq a British raj book? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 yes, because not only it is outdated by a big margin (more than a century) it also depends on British surveys, all of which make it unreliable. So please revert your all additions on all pages which you have edited with such sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

then there are not many sources out there and what's wrong with mentioning a century old book, I guess it must be better as it gives much earlier knowledge of the topic. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Ogahi

you made changes on ogahi page, the citations mentioned non of them support the content. On what basis you made changes? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

also sane goes for lund you must provide any other strong sources until that you must revert these two articles to last revision. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I request you to revert yourself at Langah (clan). Think it as your final warning, otherwise after this it will definitely go to Administrators' noticeboard. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

why? You first accepted the citation then later now you are not accepting it? Don't be biased, Misplaced Pages is not only for certain group of people, giving half information is not good. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I thought that this was a recent study. But it is again based upon Raj era survey. So this is automatically makes it unreliable and hence should be removed. It's not about accepting or not accepting, I'm afraid, your this behaviour and refusal to accept WP policies is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I have checked it where is it written on the citation? I dont find it to be based of Britain raj. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 read again on the bottom of page 6

. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

And reply me about the changes you made on ogahi and lund pages, as the citations i mentioned there are not of British raj, neither they are too old. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 Add any recent academic source mentioning them as Sindhis and not just as living in Sindh, and I will not remove it. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I will first you do the same mentioning langah to be punjabis living in Punjab? As the citations I have read non of them talk about them being Punjabis. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 all current sources mention them to be living in Punjab. As for being Punjabis, the reference is just next to it in the article. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Population by Geographical Levels: Punjab (including the Federal Capital Territory Islamabad) doesn't say they are punjabis, it only shows total langah. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

so you must also write a rajput tribe living in punjab, don't make them punjabis, as the sources either mention them as afghans or sindhis, your content written is absolutely wrong and incorrect, I wonder how Misplaced Pages is letting you do this. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

It does, on page 73. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Asking for citation.

"Shadows of My Memories AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

"Shadows of My Memories

By Riffat Chaudhry · 2014" is this book is good to cite on a page? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 It seems to be a memoir, and not history. Also Riffat Chaudhary is not any established historian; I am unable to find anything about the author's professional career. So it can not be used as an academic cite.

A good start to find which sources are reliable can be found on wikipedia's guidelines about reliable sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 23:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Asking for citation

Is this citation, ok or is it also of raj (Census of India, 1911 Volume 7)? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Also this citation "https://sites.google.com/view/sindhstory/sindhi-society-and-culture" is this OK to be mentioned in any article? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

First one is definitely a colonial source and second also seems highly unreliable, since it claims that Phoenicians of Syria originated from Sindhis, a claim which has no proof, in addition to other inconsistencies. Online websites are not a great source for history, you should search for academic scholarship. Sutyarashi (talk) 02:33, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Gurchani

Despite sources not being Raj-era, why are you repeatedly removing text from Gurchani citing the same in edit summary? If there are other issues, enlighten me. Thanks. Krayon95 (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Krayon95 I didn't realize that you have replaced the references. Anyways, still the section is irrelevant to the article as it describes origins of Dodai tribe, not Gurchani. It has probably been copied from the main article on Dodai itself. Moreover, the section also does not make any mention of Gurchani, so it makes little sense to keep it. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi. The Gurchani article has been created by me and it would have been clear who copied from whom if there was attribution on Dodai article as the wiki requires. All the sources are valid and it pertains both to Gurchani and Dodai as its clear from the section. Do not misuse the revert function, you have no valid argument to do so. Krayon95 (talk) 05:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Krayon95 Even if you created the article, you don't own it. The section nowhere mentions the Gurchani, I wonder why you want to keep it? You have also not given any convincing reason for it. Sutyarashi (talk) 05:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi. How do you mean 'section nowhere mentions the Gurchani'? It certainly does. It literally describes their origin legend and formation of Dodai and Gurchani section among Baloch. Krayon95 (talk) 06:14, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

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@Whpq the Independent Urdu clearly mentions the image to be in Public Domain. So it is clearly not any copyright infringement. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that note on the side. I've removed the speedy deletion. -- Whpq (talk) 11:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

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Edit warring

The previous warning was intended for Daudpotra and now also extended to Template:Sindhi tribes. Please read thru Misplaced Pages:Edit warring carefully and cease such activity immediately — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 17:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

And Hyder Ali — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 18:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer there was no edit warring on Hyder Ali as the editor agreed to not add WP:RAJ again. Also, as for Template, irrelevant tribes (with no corresponding verification from their main articles) were added. Sutyarashi (talk) 06:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

+Sanjrani and this list keeps growing — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 07:32, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

+Kulachi (tribe) — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 07:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer I think you need to see talk pages of Yamaguchi先生 Sir Calculus to check what really happened. Multiple editors other than me restored the previous, cleaner versions. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I think you read thru WP:EW to pursue WP:DR — DaxServer (mobile) (t · m · e · c) 09:21, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You need* to — DaxServer (mobile) (t · m · e · c) 09:22, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer Hi, he is still continuing his edit warring at Sindhi tribes template even after your warning. Sir Calculus (talk) 22:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I removed certain tribes which are unverified by their respective articles and are nowhere called as Sindhi (for example Kharal, Sial, Langah and so on), you cannot add random people in the Sindhi template and call removal of them with a sufficient edit summary "edit warring". Sutyarashi (talk) 01:16, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Bro? I already told you the references are there in the list of tribes not their wiki articles. Also If you don't trust me then check their notable people list, Kharal, Sial, Langah & Hanbhi etc, I can provide quick census references for them too if you want. And I haven't touched that template since I got warned. But you still did, not very nice brother. Sir Calculus (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Just cetain people don't make a whole tribe Sindhi (or any other ethnicity). You still need to provide reliable sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 06:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Those people are to give YOU an idea, since you keep rejecting their existence. Others here already know the demographics. And you say reliable sources but in Daudpota article you have made a Saraiki & Sindhi people in Punjabi. Where your own reference doesn't even state them a Punjabi clan or Punjab origins or even assimilated Punjabi. Your reference is copied word by word from the 1998 district census report where it clearly states the district's majority by mother tongue, but you don't show that part. And the obvious fact that Riasti is a dialect of Seraiki also makes it clear. Sir Calculus (talk) 11:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

No these people don't give any idea. Just because I speak English and live in UK, my family doesn't become English too. You still need refernces. As for Daudpota, I have left message for you at its talk page. Engage with it there. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

They exist. You have a problem with them? Not Misplaced Pages's fault. And references are there in the list of tribes. But you keep rejecting them. Okay, I'll check Daudpota talk page. Sir Calculus (talk) 11:49, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I have no problem with anyone. Like Sitush and others have told you, you need to stop speculating stuff and assuming everything but good faith from others. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Go check Daudpota talk page. I have posted something. I assume good faith from others, but Sitush has been more personal, he has issue with notable people list, he has issue with native scripts, he has issue with see also list, categories, template etc. Even though they're not against any wiki policy. You see what I meant by selective bias when I repeatedly kept calling it out? Sir Calculus (talk) 12:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

So anyone who disagrees with you has a selective bias? That's interesting. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Nope. Stop twisting my words. Sir Calculus (talk) 12:30, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

That's what your reply implied. Anyways, I think for now you should just get experience about how Misplaced Pages works instead of engaging in conflict with many editors. There's is a lot which I don't think you understand, and the fact you're involved in contentious topics makes it even more problematic. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

My reply never implied "anyone". I'm getting the experience. But If you can call me out for a weak reference. I can do too. So let's make wikipedia a better place. You in? Sir Calculus (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Mind explaining this "But If you can call me out for a weak reference. I can do too." Sutyarashi (talk) 12:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Very clearly appears to be a response indicating that if someone accuses an editor of using a weak reference, the other editor is capable of doing the same when the editor provides a weak reference especially in contentious topics. That way we can make Misplaced Pages a better place. A place without weak references. If you still have trouble. Then I can break it into word by word meaning. Thank you for your attention. :) Sir Calculus (talk) 12:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 23

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Karlani, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Khogyani.

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Stop Vandalising Swati pages

I noticed your ultra nationalist behavior on the pages of Swati tribe. What is reference for Dardic origin. I did my DNA from London. I am a Well Known Khan Swati and It was majority Yousafzai dna in mine. There can be some dards merged into Swatis but Swatis tribe doesn't belong to one blood. It's the mixture of different races. Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khan Of Naral references are already cited on the article. There's nothing ultra nationalist in it. If you have reliable sources stating Swatis to be of any other ethnicity, feel free to add them. Also, avoid edit warring, it may lead to block. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok now I will add Pashto origin with citations from well known books. Don't you change that again. I have read 10 books on swatis history and you are saying They were speaking Dardic? I never found it anywhere. If you wanna add it Cite from a well known book not from a stub article written by some random philosopher. If you change without citations from old historical book, I will present all these things in front of Misplaced Pages Admins to take necessary actions. Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khan Of Naral sure, go ahead. While citing, keep in mind to avoid colonial era books and random websites or blogs, they are not considered WP:RS. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Why not colonial era book? Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khan Of Naral please see WP:RAJ. In short, British anthropologists had rather poor record for fact-checking. Also, given the fact that they are outdated by more than a century, they are simply not fit for citing anymore. See WP:AGE. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Have you read book of Akhund Darweza? Who is considered as well known Pashtun Historian Whose mother was Swati and He wrote book even before the book you citied. He clearly wrote Gabri Swatis are Tajiks. So what about that? Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

What evidences you have regarding his position as an academic scholar? Is there any single book from him, published by any reliable press and is not just published by himself? Keep in mind that on wikipedia, his mother being Swati has no relevance.Sutyarashi (talk) 11:34, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The book that you cited is Transformition of Afghan Tribal Society which is written in 1988 and It's not realible source of citing origin of a tribe which has large conflicts. Also This is published in Duke University in California which is in USA and USA is considered as biggest enemy of Pashtuns so how we could believe them? Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khan Of Naral that's funny. Misplaced Pages is also based in USA, if you are so much against it then why you're even here, editing articles on "Anti-Pashtun Misplaced Pages"? Sutyarashi (talk) 12:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

oh thanks for telling this. As a leader of tribe. I will tell my tribe that don't believe Misplaced Pages article as it is written by USA and Indians to change our roots. I will tell them about DNA reports,and books that are written by the authors who haven't any problem with Pashtuns or Afghans. We know about Indian propagandas very well. If I get a chance ever in life I will tell IT experts from my tribe to boycott these stub articles spreading rumors about the origin of tribe. Whatever every single person of my tribe knows who are they? You think our ancestors didn't tell us? Keep editing! (Indian agent) Khan Of Naral (talk) 12:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but none of this really makes any sense. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Akhund Darweza Baba was a Sufi and Islamic scholar and one of the caliphs of Sayyid Ali Tirmi. This is enough for his position. Now you will doubt him Go and see reference in Misplaced Pages article of Akhund Darweza. His Book name is " Tazkira tul-Abrar val-Ashrar (Farsi)" in which he written Swatis were Tajiks and He was the only Historian who preserved the family tree of Sultans of Swat? What rather you expect than this? Khan Of Naral (talk) 11:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

None of this falls under WP:RS. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

July 2023

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Khanate of Kalat. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Noorullah (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)