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"also called" or "or"

"Orca or killer whale" and "Orca, also called killer whale" are both fine. Readers will understand either way. Still, it would be better to discuss the arguments for/against either construction here than in edit-warring summaries. Schazjmd (talk) 22:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@Rebecca Beecham Gotzl and Str1977:, please discuss the lead sentence here. (You both have 3 reverts today.) Schazjmd (talk) 00:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your ping, which I am not presuming will work in my favor. In any event, I am happy to avoid ongoing edit-warring.
If the two variants are equally good, editing the original was unnecessary. I believe the original is standard and encyclopedic prose for this case. Compare the Tibetan blue bear wording, for example—also the subject of naming controversy. "Also called killer whale," as if it is an alias, deprecates the name still widely used in scientific publications, as is evidenced in the article's references. I maintain that balance and neutrality are best reflected in the original wording.
But I am prepared to yield, though in my opinion the result would be inferior English prose, and Wikipedian style. Rebecca Beecham Gotzl (talk) 01:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
The "or", while commonly used in journalism, is sloppy wording and, as you call it, "inferior English prose". It suggests that there are two subjects of this article (that can be the case with some articles) standing side by side, when in fact it is one animal known by different names.
"also known as" doesn't deprecate the second name at all, even though in this case it is clearly the non-scientific, colloquial name. "also known as" means the very same as what your version intents, just in a clearer way.
Any argument of "editing the original was unnecesssary" equally falls on the revert as well.
Str1977 10:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm afraid I might have triggered this dispute. An editor completely removed "killer whale" from the lead, with the edit summary That's not its scientific name. I thought perhaps their objection was "killer whale" being immediately followed by "Orcinus orca", so when I restored "killer whale", I put it after the scientific name with "also called". The lead was Killer whale or orca from 2009 until January 2022 when the article title was changed from Killer whale to Orca and the lead then swapped to Orca or killer whale. I don't think either variation (or or also called) is worth warring over. Schazjmd (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your historical overview of this matter. I agree, and will not defend against further edits to this article. Many of the world's whale populations, including orca populations, are only sketchily described in Misplaced Pages, or lack up-to-date contributions. I hope my colleagues there will work to improve this situation. Note that Tibetan blue bear has now been altered. Rebecca Beecham Gotzl (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
@Schazjmd: I completely agree with your take on this. Str1977 21:42, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Orca range map should include eastern North Sea and adjacent waters

The current map shows a boundary in the middle of the North Sea, but for several years, Orcas have been regularly seen east of that line, in Skagerrak, Kattegat and along the western shores of Jutland, Denmark. Perhaps an update is in order? 94.254.62.88 (talk) 13:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I just checked the IUCN reference which usually has accurate range information. Indeed, their information matches what you are requesting. As well, the Antarctic range needs expanding as well. I will put in a request with the map makers at Misplaced Pages:Graphics Lab/Map workshop‎‎. Thanks! - UtherSRG (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 Done - UtherSRG (talk) 12:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Reliability of BBC Earth YouTube channel

Hi, I recently added a link to a BBC Earth YouTube channel. My edit was

Orcas will engage in surplus killing, that is, killing that is not designed to be for food. As an example, a BBC film crew witnessed orca in British Columbia playing with a male Steller sea lion to exhaustion, but not eating it.

The reference linked to this video (at 2:06)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f-FsAUcqMs


This was reverted by @User:Schazjmd with the reason "Not a documentary, dubious that it's a reliable source".

What does the Wiki Community think about the reliability of BBC Earth as a source? I think it's very reliable, and so my text has no problem. BrightOrion (talk) 00:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@BrightOrion, please check the article history. After your edit, an editor added an External link to nextstates.com and labelled it a documentary (it wasn't). That is the edit I reverted. Schazjmd (talk) 12:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi Schazjmd. Sorry, I didn't realise that. Problem solved. BrightOrion (talk) 12:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Avengers

Does the Avengers episode "Killer Whale" really need to be mentioned in the part before the lead? It doesn't really seem notable enough for a redirect explanation. ("Killer Whale" redirects here. For The Avengers episode, see Killer Whale (The Avengers).)

OmegaMantis (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the TV episode doesn't seem notable enough. However, for comparison, there are Doctor Who episodes (also from the 1960's) called "The Chase" and "The Crusade".
https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_Doctor_Who_episodes_(1963%E2%80%931989)#Season_2_(1964%E2%80%931965)
The Chase is mentioned in the disambiguation page
https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Chase
as is "The Crusade"
https://en.wikipedia.org/Crusade_(disambiguation)
So, based on that, maybe the "Killer Whale" disambiguation link is OK. BrightOrion (talk) 04:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Citations or Links

I noticed that the last sentence of the 4th introduction paragraph has no citation or reference link for the claim made. I decided to make an account and mention this because I've wanted to fix typos and provide citations for things in the past but admittedly been too lazy to contribute, and also because I thought that was an interesting piece of information but I was left thinking "but to who and why?" which made me question the veracity of the claim in general. My account is too young to do edits on protected pages (and I will be a novice contributor for a while, don't want to step on anyone's toes) but I just intended to add a "citation needed" marker to the end of the sentence. I may remember to look around for a citation myself but I make no promises of doing so prior to 6/8/23 since I am a student and need to study for my final exams and write term papers. Any guidance is greatly appreciated and thank you for doing important work, I hope to do some here as well since I love knowledge and free access to it. Felix Orion (talk) 07:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Felix Orion and welcome!It's common for the lead (the text before the first subheading) to be uncited; you can read more about it at WP:LEADCITE. The purpose of the lead is to summarize the body of the article (which is where the citations are generally listed). Now, if you find something in the lead that isn't properly supported in the body, asking for a citation is helpful, but not if it's simply a summary version of more detailed and sourced content below. Hope that helps, and good luck on your exams! Schazjmd (talk) 14:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
And specifically, the final sentence of the lead appears to be a summary of Orca#Relationship with humans, which I believe answers the who and why. CMD (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Orca "Killer" stereotype Pliny citation

Hello! Local Latin teacher here. Pliny does use the Latin word "orca," but this term does not mean our orca per se, rather it is a word used elsewhere in the Latin language to mean a large-bellied vessel (https://logeion.uchicago.edu/orca), and it is used only three times in Pliny to distinguish this specific creature from the more general balaena (whale). The article should probably say something like (updating the translation included in the article itself to actually reflect the English translation links in the citation note):

The first use of the word "orca" to discuss a whale was by Pliny the Elder, c. 70 CE, to differentiate one creature from the other whales he was discussing. Pliny describes orcas as "...an animal which is peculiarly hostile to the balaena , and the form of which cannot be in any way adequately described, but as an enormous mass of flesh armed with teeth. This animal attacks the balaena its places of retirement, and with its teeth tears its young, or else attacks the females which have just brought forth, and, indeed, while they are still pregnant: and as they rush upon them, it pierces them just as though they had been attacked by the beak of a Liburnian galley."(citation included in the original article should be fine here). Pliny also claims that an "orca" swam into the port at Ostia during the reign of Emperor Claudius, eating fallen imported goods from the ships, before getting stuck in the sandy port and killed by the order of the Emperor. It is unclear whether Pliny's orca is the same as the modern orca; however, scholars in the 19th century identified the first orca discussed by Pliny as "the Delphinus orca of Linnaeus" based on the orca's behavior, whereas the orca who was stuck in the port as Ostia was more likely to be a "cachelot ".

I hope this helps, and I apologize for any issues of formatting etc. This is my first Misplaced Pages contribution! Thanks for all y'all do. Zethomas753 (talk) 18:13, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Zethomas753, that's good stuff! I have incorporated it into the article at Orca#Naming. Cheers! --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 06:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Orca attacks on small boats in Strait of Gibraltar.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boating-captain-ambushed-orcas-they-knew-exactly-what-they-are-doing/ 2601:243:2680:CD78:5DC5:9A36:1C19:7E10 (talk) 00:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

OK, but what are you trying to say? I suggest you add some text your post as well.BrightOrion (talk) 22:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

White Gladis orca should it be a whole page or mentioned?

Well, you can already buy a White Gladis tee shirt. Are we witnessing White Gladis becoming a folk hero? White Gladis is the name given to a single orca that many reports claim as being the orca that began the trend of attacking small vessels especially sailboats. According to an organization tracking the attacks by date there were 24 recorded attacks in May 2023 alone. See external link to map here. Until about last week, the name White Gladis has been picked up by mostly the fringe news organizations like the Daily Mail.

Now CNN has picked up the story and name too.

Experts believe White Gladis may have suffered a “critical moment of agony”, such as colliding with a boat or becoming entrapped during illegal fishing, which altered her behaviour in a “defensive” fashion.

“That traumatised orca is the one that started this behaviour of physical contact with boats,” Dr Lopez Fernandez told Live Science.

There are currently two relevant pages...Orca and Orca attacks

My position is that attacks upon 500 vessels certainly deserves mention on the main Orca page. However, anything beyond confirmed documentation enters the realm of speculation. No one can prove why the attacks began and attribute it to just one orca. Therefore, I don't think this form of speculation can appear on the main orca page.

White Gladis was already added onto the page Orca attacks. I am mixed upon inclusion of the name upon that page. But I have not moved to remove it because of speculation.

What I am most in favor of is the creation of an entire new page dedicated to White Gladis....i.e. White Gladis orca.

Thoughts?Pbmaise (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Better wording for section of threats to humans in opening

The sentence "Wild orcas are not considered a threat to humans, and no fatal attack on humans has ever been documented." doesn't read well for me. In particular I missed the "Wild" at the beginning which is key for correct understanding of the second half. Also the passive construction "are not considered" could be considered 'weasel words'. I think something like "Orcas are not usually a threat to humans, and no fatal attack has ever been documented in their natural habitat." would be an improvement. Thoughts? Eluchil404 (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Eluchil404, I agree. LittleJerry (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Done. Eluchil404 (talk) 05:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
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