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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BilledMammal (talk | contribs) at 11:01, 6 August 2023 (→Block of User:KoA by User:Leyo: rp). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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• WP:XRVPURPOSE

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Unblock of Tony1 by Bishonen

Action: Unblock of Tony1 by Bishonen

User: Bishonen (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

Policy background:

• WP:CIVIL is a policy enacted by our community. It provides in relevant part:

"Editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. (...) Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments. (...) In cases of repeated harassment or egregious personal attacks, then the offender may be blocked. Even a single act of severe incivility could result in a block".

• The Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) is a policy enacted by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees, and is binding on all Wikipedians (UCoC §1). The Arbitration Committee has acknowledged this, and explained that the UCoC is a minimum standard that our local policies go beyond of. As such, the UCoC must be observed when applying our local policies. It provides in relevant part:

"The following behaviours are considered unacceptable within the Wikimedia movement: 3.1 – Harassment. This includes any behaviour intended primarily to intimidate, outrage or upset a person, or any behaviour where this would reasonably be considered the most likely main outcome. (...) Harassment includes but is not limited to: Insults: This includes (...) any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like intelligence".

Factual background:

The AN thread linked to above concerned a complaint by Headbomb against Tony1. Headbomb took offense to a talk page message by Tony1 in which Tony1 accused Headbomb of "ignorant writing" and told Headbomb to "go to hell". The cause of this message was apparently a stylistic disagreement about how some text should be phrased.

After the complaint was initially not taken seriously by other responding administrators, I blocked Tony1 for the reasons explained in the AN thread. Later, Bishonen unblocked Tony1. As far as I can tell from her comments in the AN thread, she did so because in her view there was "an admin consensus" against the block, and because in her view Tony1's comments were not harrassment and not a personal attack.

Argument:

Bishonen acted irresponsibly by unblocking Tony1. The comments by Tony1 were incivil and therefore sanctionable per WP:CIVIL. Whether or not they were personal attacks, they were at least "rudeness disrespectful comments", as provided for by the policy. They were also harassment as defined in UCoC §3.1, i.e. "behaviour intended primarily to intimidate, outrage or upset a person, or any behaviour where this would reasonably be considered the most likely main outcome". The allegation of "ignorant writing" was moreover an insult as defined in the same provision, i.e., "attacks based on personal characteristics (...) like intelligence".

The block was also an appropriate and proportionate response, as explained in the AN thread, particularly because of previous blocks and reports of similar misconduct concerning Tony1.

It is also immaterial whether there was an "admin consensus" against the block, as Bishonen alleged. The view of administrators is not of greater importance than that of other users in disciplinary matters. In any event, core policies such as WP:CIVIL and the UCoC cannot be set aside by local consensus.

To be clear, as an administrator, Bishonen was technically authorized to undo my block. Admins may in good faith disagree about whether and which enforcement action is appropriate, and they may undo blocks (except in WP:CTOP cases) they deem inappropriate. But once seized of an enforcement request that has merit, as Bishonen was here by her participation in the AN thread and her unblock, they may not simply replace an enforcement measure with none, as Bishonen did here, because this amounts to preventing and frustrating the enforcement of core policies, contrary to the duty of administrators. Instead, having undone my block, Bishonen was required to take or request another effective preventative measure, such as an editing restriction, warning, or shorter block.

Bishonen knows better. She has recently correctly blocked other editors for similar misconduct, see e.g. User talk:Vizualnoiise#Blocked indefinitely (offense), User talk:Beeuu#Warning, and page blocks (offense), User talk:Chaitanya kalra#Enough warnings (offense). In particular, at User talk:Raheja88#Page block, she page-blocked an editor for the comment: "well, cant argue with a fool anymore. Have a nice life", and correctly explained: "Civility is policy here". In June, she blocked an IP for "personal attacks or harassment" for comments that were considerably milder than Tony1's statements. It is therefore difficult to explain why she would go so far out of her way to protect Tony1 from a block for very similar misconduct. The only conceivable explanation is that Tony1 is a socially well-connected established editor, and the other editors she blocked were not. In my view, this conduct by Bishonen contributes to the impression, as described at WP:UNBLOCKABLES, that civility is something enforced only against nobodies, not against people with the right kind of friends. This is repugnant to me, and, I hope, most Wikipedians.

The unblock should therefore be undone and the block reinstated until such time as Tony1 credibly recognizes their misconduct and commits not to repeat it. Sandstein 10:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Follow-up: Someone I don't know informed me by e-mail of the following: In 2019, Tony1 told an editor on their talk page to "Piss off. Now, you miserable little swine." When Tony1's conduct was subsequently discussed at ANI, Bishonen wrote: " I understand why he was blocked. But I'm glad GoldenRing unblocked. As for a FAC topic ban, that is surely unnecessarily humiliating for someone who used to be one of the FAC greats". While I am not familiar with that incident, Bishonen's comment mentioned above supports the impression that as an administrator she does not apply the same standards to people she likes and to other editors. This is very problematic in an administrator. Sandstein 11:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Sandstein, opening a review at this noticeboard seems to me a bit like asking the other parent, or forumshopping. Your own block of Tony1 was taken to RFAR yesterday, and the arbs and others are busy there commenting on both your block and, of course, on my unblock. (As indeed did many users at this AN thread.) Isn't that enough? It seems to me that having the discussion over several boards can only dilute it. Bishonen | tålk 11:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC).

My understanding is that this is the proper forum in which to review a contested admin action, so I'm here. Arbitration is a last resort, and the arbitration request you refer to is in the process of being denied for this reason, among others. Sandstein 12:10, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The most that this page can handle is: "Bishonen unblocked Tony1 yesterday without consulting me, the blocking admin. Does the community endorse?" Even then, it is premature in that you have not discussed this with her, and simultaneously, it is too late because the whole incident was already discussed at AN and even ArbCom, though perhaps neither venue discussed Bishonen's conduct front and centre. The accusations you've made here are grave. If AN and ArbCom didn't address it to your satisfaction, you will just have to start dedicated cases in the same venues. This board would be a step backwards.

Personally, I hope adminning in the English Misplaced Pages can continue to remain as robust without the need for appeal to UCOC. Not a fan of undiscussed reversal of admin actions, especially blocks. Not a fan of the way Bishonen notified you on your talk page. As to why the interpersonal dynamics may be the way they are among three users who have been on Misplaced Pages almost 20 years, I would not dare begin to explore. I don't think anyone seriously wants to get into that whole thing about favouritism, double standards and cabalism among established users and admin corps. Usedtobecool ☎️ 12:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Here's my two cents, in more or less chronological order:
  • I've never written anything for The Signpost, so I'm not up on the culture there, but I tend to think of Signpost articles as akin to personal essays where the author has a greater degree of ownership than they would with a mainspace article. The Signpost quick start seems to support that view.
  • Headbomb could have been more diplomatic in how they pushed back on Tony1's edits.
  • Tony1's Go to hell comment was completely uncalled for. Arguing about which of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA applied is just wikilawyering. Whatever you label it, it wasn't an appropriate thing to say.
  • I'm not convinced Sandstein's block was necessary, but it was certainly not unreasonable.
  • I don't see any reason the UCOC had to be cited. Our own policies cover this just fine. As a practical matter, the UCOC has not been received well by much of the enwiki community and I suspect any time it's cited to support an admin action, that'll just ratchet up the temperature of whatever else is going on.
  • I disagree with Bishonen's unblock, but I don't see it rising to anything more than a routine "that's not what I would have done".
  • Ritchie333 bringing this to arbcom was excessive, but they've already acknowledged that, so no need to dwell on it.
  • I see somebody dug up another example of Tony1 being uncivil from four years ago. Unless we've got some reason to believe this is an ongoing problem, let's all just agree that everybody is allowed to have a bad day once every four years and move on from that.
  • I've seen a few comments citing Tony1's long history of work at FA and the Signpost, asserting that this history gives him a free ride to ignore rules and be nasty to people. It does not.
  • Please everybody, just decompress and get back to writing the encyclopedia. RoySmith (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  +1 to this analysis. Pretty much every successive step in this saga has made me roll my eyes, then go back to more productive work. _signed, Rosguill 14:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with Roy here also. That said, I would emphasize a few points a bit more strongly. The UCOC mention was probably a bad idea for a number of reasons (mainly it makes it look like a soapbox for UCOC's relationship to Misplaced Pages and thus feels like a case of the tail wagging the dog) and I'd recommend avoiding mentioning it in the future. I'd have phrased my disagreement wrt Bishonen's unblock a bit more strongly. I think it was at best unwise and should at least have been followed by some advice given to Tony1. Hobit (talk) 17:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with Hobit (and thus broadly RoySmith) on all counts. Headbomb, Tony1, Bishonen, Sandstein and Ritchie333 all have lessons to be learned from this saga, but as long as they commit to learning them (and Richtie333 at least already has) then I don't think any further action would benefit the project. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Sandstein my friend. Close this and let's move on please. Lourdes 19:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Drawing upon information from various sources the now closed ANI discussion and the current ARC request, which is on its way to speedy decline, it appears that the block imposed was wholly within the established Misplaced Pages policy. The invoked Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) merely serves as a foundational guideline, yet the pre-existing policy is decidedly more comprehensive, as affirmed by our Arbitration Committee.What intrigues, and somewhat amuses me, is the unblocking decision. The rationale provided is, to put it mildly, lacking in maturity and remarkably dismissive of the ongoing discourse. Although I am not convinced that this situation necessitates community sanctions or escalation to the Arbitration Committee, I firmly believe that this episode should serve as a precedent and certainly not be replicated in future situations. PackMecEng (talk) 22:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Decisions on their own don't have "maturity", only the people making them do. Saying "that was a very mature decision" is tantamount to saying "You are very mature." Similarly, saying that a unblock rationale is "lacking in maturity and remarkable dismissive" is a comment not on the action itself, but on the person who took the action, Bishonen. In my view, your remarks are therefore a WP:Personal attack on Bishonen's character, and I urge you to strike them. If you refuse, I urge an uninvolved admin to block you for your violation of WP:NPA. At the very least, a warning not to continue to make personal attacks should be issued. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
  • @PackMecEng: you appear to be trolling and casting snide insults here and at ANI. Please stop. Abecedare (talk) 15:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

    I don't think it's trolling at all. I share PackMecEng's displeasure with the unblock itself and with Bishonen's attitude in communicating the unblock. While I don't think it serves a useful purpose for editors to continue relitigating the matter at various noticeboards, I do hope Bishonen will take on board that some of us feel the unblock was not carried out well.

    As an aside, I strongly disagree with Sandstein's desire for the block to be reinstated. That would be a very bad outcome. This matter has been sufficiently discussed and further threads are unlikely to be healthy for the community. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    I think it's sufficient for Bishonen to "take on board" the fact that a number of arbitrators and other commenters on RFAR felt that Bishonen's unblock was completely within admin discretion. That some people disagreed with an admin's action is hardly anything to write home about; rather, it would be a rare admin decision about which somebody did not disagree. So far, at least, I'm not seeing here a groundswell of disapprobation concerning Bishonen's decision to unblock. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    Sure, it was within admin discretion. But that doesn't mean it was the right call. I personally feel that it wasn't, and I'm clearly not the only one. The lack of a groundswell of disapprobation probably stems from the fact that most people are justifiably ready to stop talking about the whole thing. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    Or, it could mean that there just aren't that many people who thought it was a "bad call". Certainly the consensus of those who commented on the unblock in the case request didn't think so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    For the record I am a person who agrees Bishonen's unblock was within admin discretion, also thinks it was a bad call (just because you can do something doesn't mean it is always a good idea to do it) and did not comment to this effect in the case request (because doing so would not have brought anything new to the discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 09:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    @Lepricavark How would you describe "Ha, did you stick out your tongue at the end as well?" I presume you are aware of PackMecEng's one week block for disruption at AN. Doug Weller talk 10:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    I was probably aware of that situation when it happened, but I don't recall it now (which could be said about an ever-increasing number of situations that I've observed/participated in). While the "did you stick out your tongue" remark did not contribute anything helpful to the discussion, I took it as an expression of frustration with Bishonen's attitude in carrying out the unblock. Personally, I felt that both Bishonen and Sandstein (with his bogus invocation of UCOC and the accusation that other admins were failing to enforce it, as well as his decision to open this thread) were more adversarial than they should have been, and I think the frustration underlying PackMecEng's comment is perfectly valid. Is it possible that it was trolling? Sure. But I think admins should be very, very careful when lobbing that accusation against non-admins who are criticizing admin actions. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

• I think best practice would be for Bishonen to visit Sandstein's talk page for a polite conversation before unblocking.I think the en.wiki community takes a dismissive view of the UCOC. The community seems to think there's nothing in the UCOC that isn't already covered by our existing policies and guidelines, and that this means the UCOC can safely be ignored on en.wiki. Personally, I only hope that's true.I think that it's open to the community to reach a consensus that a block should be reversed. I don't think it matters whether that's a consensus of admins or not, and I don't think an "admin consensus" is a thing at all. I also don't think it matters whether the block rationale cites WP:CIVIL. I know that WP:CIVIL is a core policy but it's my position that even a civility-related block can be overturned by community consensus. And I think that yes, a consensus to unblock did exist at the time that Bishonen unblocked.—S Marshall T/C 09:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

  @S Marshall I’m not clear why using his talk page would be superior to the discussion in the thread. Doug Weller talk 12:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Block of User:KoA by User:Leyo

I am questioning the coorectness of this block stating that "You have been blocked temporarily from editing for edit-warring (Special:Diff/1166825517, Special:Diff/1167229773, Special:Diff/1167935777, Special:Diff/1168612971), as you did at Dominion (2018 film)), as you did at Dominion (2018 film." by User:Leyo.

I asked Leyo to explain her block here:https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Leyo#Your_block_of_User:KoA_was_inappropriate] She's now been inactive for almost two days so I have decided to proceed.

When I first noticed the block it didn't seem to be appropriate. It wasn't clear to me that they were reverting anyone on the 24th, the first diff. It was trimmed quite a bit, but as I understand it, that's not considered reverting if it isn't reverting a specific editor's text. As for their last actual revert, they posted to the article talk page at 17:43, July 31, 2023, no one responded, and at 22:43, August 3, 2023 they reverted. In other words, they waited over 3 days. I don't see that revert as edit warring. I'd probably revert if I'd posted to the talk page and waited that long (note that I'm not agreeing with the revert, simply saying that this wasn't edit warring as I understand it). What I hadn't realised is that Leyo is an involved editor - I only learned that from KoA's unblock request in which he wrote:

"I've had to caution Leyo about their behavior issues building over some years when they have been attacking me and edit warring in DS/CT topics. I specifically had to warn them about casting WP:ASPERSIONS in the GMO topic here and here as well as for the 1RR restrictions. I had to caution them specifically about the GMO restrictions again just a couple months ago yet again because Leyo was promoting a WP:FRINGE organization (denial of scientific consensus on GMOs) as reliable in this discussion where they were lashing out at me. A lot of that has focused on GMO-related content disputes like this too, so I'm worried that this pursuit is escalating into other agriculture related topics. They also made similar article talk comments You have a well-known history of man-on-a-mission edits. Your actions are not the consensus. where another admin Smartse (though involved in the topic) had to caution Leyo about their pursuit of me. That all started back in 2016 when they were taking to article talk to accuse me of having an agenda. I've felt they haven't taken cautions I've given them seriously, but I never expected them to go this far and use admin tools as part of that interaction."

User:Smartse also responded to the unblock request agreeing that Leyo is WP:Involved. Doug Weller talk 07:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Prior to considering WP:INVOLVED, it does seem to be a bad block.

1. Leyo cited four diffs as evidence for the block: Special:Diff/1166825517, Special:Diff/1167229773, Special:Diff/1167935777, Special:Diff/1168612971. Of these, only three would traditionally be considered reverts, as the first is a change to long-standing content which has been in place since 2021.
2. Leyo didn't consider the talk page discussion. Before making the reverts in diffs 3 and 4 KoA went to the talk page. For #3 the editor who reverted them, Psychologist Guy, did not appear to oppose not characterizing the film as a "documentary", and for #4 the editor, Stonerock10, did not engage - while editors are not expected to satisfy other editors, they are expected to contribute to the discussion, and if they refuse to do so after sufficient time has passed it is reasonable to revert their revert. KoA's behavior was aligned with WP:BRD, and was not edit warring.
3. Counting the first "revert", the reverts took place across ten days. Four reverts over such an extended period, absent aggravating circumstances, should not result in an immediate block as such circumstances do not meet the requirements of WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE. Even if Leyo had been correct about this being edit warring a talk page warning should have been the first step, with a block only occurring if KoA did not desist.

Considering WP:INVOLVED, the evidence demonstrates long-standing animosity between Leyo and KoA, and on that basis I would call this a highly inappropriate WP:INVOLVED block, made more so by the fact that it was a bad block that even an uninvolved admin should not have made.

I am also curious how Leyo discovered the dispute at Dominion (2018 film); Leyo, would you be able to explain this to us? In the interests of resolving this, I am also hoping you can provide more information on why you believed a block was necessary, why you believed it was appropriate for you to make the block, and how you will ensure such mistakes do not reoccur. BilledMammal (talk) 11:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

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