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A news item involving Christine Lagarde was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 29 June 2011.

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This talk page is for discussion on how to improve the Christine Lagarde article. If you would like to ask questions about the subject, please address them to the Reference desk.

Criminal Conviction

As mentioned in a subsection, Christine Lagarde is a convicted criminal (for negligence in the use of public funds). This is very important information to surface, and it is front-and-center in the bios of other high-profile criminals. JonQalg (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Along with my edit to the description, I would like to add the relevant sections for the cutout: Criminal status, Conviction, etc JonQalg (talk) 20:33, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

See here for an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/Martin_Shkreli JonQalg (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

The article already mentions Lagarde's conviction in the fourth paragraph of the lead, and devotes a three-paragraph subsection to it. This seems to be perfectly adequate coverage to me. Lagarde is absolutely not predominantly known for her criminal convictions in a way which would justify including it in the first sentence of her biography, ahead of her roles as politician, lawyer, and president of the ECB as this edit attempted to do. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

That edit appears to be the appropriate place for something that merits a three-paragraph subsection. She had become very well known for her recent criminal conviction, likely because of her role as president of the ECB, a role that one imagines requires a lack of negligence in the use of public funds. JonQalg (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Looks like we will have another example soon! https://en.wikipedia.org/Cristina_Fern%C3%A1ndez_de_Kirchner JonQalg (talk) 15:46, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted this out of the first sentence. It likely should have a sentence somewhere later in the lead, but it's placement in the first sentence is undue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 00:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. Reliable sources do not generally regard the conviction as central to her notability Tristario (talk) 01:24, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the addition of the word "criminal" because that is not how the sources characterize the conviction of "negligence". In fact, one source says that the criminal case had been dropped. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The NYT source calls it a “criminal conviction” JonQalg (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:BLPPUBLIC we need multiple sources saying that. And even if some do, if most of them don't, we should probably still avoid or put less emphasis on that wording per WP:NPOV Tristario (talk) 02:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Instead of removing my edit, please suggest an alternative edit that will surface this important information. JonQalg (talk) 02:37, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Important to whom? What matters on Misplaced Pages are the policies and guidelines that govern what we say about living persons, not any editor's opinion of what is "important". Just saying "conviction" is sufficient. The WP:BURDEN is on you, not anyone else, to support the assertion you want to add. Of the 10 sources cited in that paragraph, none of them mention the word "criminal" or "crime" in the context of this conviction of "negligence"; in fact the Bloomberg source says a criminal suit was dropped. I cannot see the NYT source. As far as I can tell, you are committing a violation of WP:BLP by including it, and edit-warring about it without meeting WP:BURDEN will likely lead to a block on your account. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:51, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Your assertions about the sources are incorrect. A I have mentioned, the NYT source linked clearly states it is a “criminal conviction.” What more proof do you need? JonQalg (talk) 04:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Here is one of many sources that cite a criminal conviction: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/imf-trial-christine-lagarde-france-verdict.html?_r=0. Stop removing my edit please. I have met my burden of proof and you are likely to be banned for edit warring, not me. JonQalg (talk) 05:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

More sources : 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/lagarde-imf-verdict-france-questions.html

2. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-24/orange-ceo-convicted-in-453-million-arbitration-payout-case JonQalg (talk) 05:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-19/imf-head-lagarde-convicted-in-french-negligence-trial JonQalg (talk) 05:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Fixed the second link JonQalg (talk) 05:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Another source in the article with the same language: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/christine-lagarde-convicted-imf-head-found-guilty-of-negligence-in-fraud-trial-a7484586.html JonQalg (talk) 05:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

A French article using similar language: https://www.liberation.fr/france/2016/12/19/christine-lagarde-coupable-sans-peine_1536376/ JonQalg (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

This source says "The court, which noted her national and international stature, spared her a criminal record." And most of those sources you just gave don't say she was criminally convicted. 1. Says she was found guilty of criminal charges, the bloomberg sources don't say that, The independent only says that in the headline (see WP:HEADLINES), and the Liberation article doesn't seem to say that either Tristario (talk) 06:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The article you cite is a “primer,” and doesn’t dispute her conviction. The Bloomberg article uses the word “convicted” in the first sentence and the Liberation article uses a translation. JonQalg (talk) 06:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

No one is disputing that she's been convicted, it's whether there's enough sourcing to say she's been "criminally convicted" or to call her a "convicted criminal". And it's still reliable, even though it's described as a "primer". Please take time to read WP:BLP to understand some of the considerations here. Tristario (talk) 06:22, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

How is it possible to be convicted without it being a criminal conviction? JonQalg (talk) 06:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted out criminal from the lead section again. Trying to force you preferred option isn't going to work. You need to follow the WP:BRD process and convince other editors that the addition of criminal is justified. Personally even if the sourcing is good enough I don't believe it would be WP:DUE in the first sentence of the lead. It's simply not the first thing that she is known for. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 08:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

That’s based only on your opinion. I have backed up the due weight of this information with multiple sources. You have cited nothing to back up your assertion that she is not known for being a convicted criminal. JonQalg (talk) 17:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

You've been reverted by five different editors, so not just me. And as per WP:ONUS it is up to you to convince us otherwise. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

There are other editors making similar changes to mine. I am trying to achieve consensus on this change, but you are not responding to my arguments in good faith. I am opening a dispute resolution request in the hope that less biased editors might intervene. JonQalg (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Please go ahead. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I guess I should tell you you've added you complaint to a closed section of WP:DRN. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Please note that I have blocked JonQalg from editing the article for 72 hours following blatant edit-warring against consensus. Ritchie333 16:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Letter intended for Sarkozy

Having checked Le Monde, I adjusted the wording. Clarification was needed because at the time when the letter was apparently drafted, Sarkozy was most likely president, not former president. It isn't clear that the document is relevant to the "criminal conviction" under which we mention it, rather than the "ministerial career" which we currently deal with very briefly. Andrew Dalby 15:12, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove : Spouse = Eachran Gilmour She was never married to Eachran Gilmour this is a mistake. She is currently married to Xavier Giocanti and was married to Wilfred Lagarde. Agiocanti (talk) 12:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: In addition to the Telegraph citation already used in the article, New York Times, CNN, and Irish Examiner all say she was married to Gilmour. Xan747 (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

BLP issue

This is an unusual one. Last week, I was at a European leaders lunch with a number of people, including Christine Lagarde. After the lunch, we chatted and she told me that there's an error in her Misplaced Pages entry relating to her marriages. In fact, she married Wilfred Lagarde, as we say, but was never married to Eachran Gilmour, and is now married to Xavier Giocanti. I went back to my hotel room and studied the issue and found that there are loads of ordinarily reliable sources for what we've done - so the error isn't ours. Later at the conference I went over to her to make sure I had heard her correctly, and I mentioned the sources. She says, and I'm quite sure she's right, that there was an error in the New York Times in 1999, and since then various other sources have repeated the claim. I would imagine that Misplaced Pages has assisted in an unfortunate way through "citogenesis" as lazy journalists going to write a profile of her rely on what is stated in Misplaced Pages.

I do not think we should continue reporting something that isn't true - and saying that someone is married and divorced when they weren't makes it a BLP issue. As a first attempt to resolve it, I have moved all 3 men into "Domestic partners" and propose that we look harder for sources to confirm her marriage to Xavier. Unfortunately I didn't think to ask her for those.

I should add that I have no COI of any kind here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:19, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Your personal anecdotes don't trump our WP:V policies, as seen in the past. You have tried "correcting" BLPs in the past based on what some celebrity told you, only to beshown that either you or they were wrong in those claims. Now, it may well be that this time you are right, but your say-so (nor that of anyone else) has in the end no weight. Misplaced Pages:No original research. Fram (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

But WP:BLP trumps everything, and this is a BLP issue. I'm reverting back to my version, and bringing this to wider attention. There is a clean solution here that resolves the question completely - decide that the exact marital status isn't encyclopedic or is in question, keep it out of the body, take note in a footnote. Deliberately and obstinately keeping incorrect information in an article is basically never the right asnwer on BLP questions. Remember: Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules is policy, there specifically to deal with weird edge cases like this. "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

See e.g. the Guardian from 2011. Our article at that time did not even mention Gilmour, so they didn't seem to have gotten that info from us. As the Guardian info in that section is clearly from post-1999, it isn't just a copy of the NYtimes article either. So that's at least two independent, good, WP:RS. Fram (talk) 09:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I also found CNN, and Irish Examiner. Our article cites the Telegraph. With the NYT and Guardian, that gives us five total RS. If sources existed that say she was NOT married to Gilmour I think we would have already turned them up. It was correct to revert Jimbo's edit. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 15:25, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

A different kind of reliable source, confirming a marriage to Gilmour, is the Lagarde biography in The Europa Directory of International Organizations 2022 ("Eachran+Gilmour"&source=bl&ots=ZoVzsqGIdP&sig=ACfU3U39W1j9O3CF0cq7rcqWN0pVUFvnmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8uoicrc2AAxVpTaQEHU3EAMs4ChDoAXoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q="Eachran%20Gilmour"&f=false Apologies if not everyone can see this page), I quote, "m. 2nd Eachran Gilmour (divorced)". This bio is not based on Misplaced Pages, as shown by a following sentence "started career as lecturer at Univ. Paris X" which we don't happen to say.

There are signs that someone wants to adjust the Misplaced Pages record right now. On the French wiki, user fr:Utilisateur:Xavier Giocanti has been editing the page fr:Xavier Giocanti and also made a hamfisted edit to fr:Christine Lagarde; user User:Agiocanti has made a comment above. Andrew Dalby 13:07, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea at all whether those editors are who they say they are, but I see no particular reason to doubt it. If they had asked me, I would have said definitely don't edit this yourself. But we all know that people who have false negative things said about them in Misplaced Pages have a right under BLP policy to edit it - they aren't required to learn all our rules. The important thing for us is the ethics and morality of speaking the truth. Here we have an unusual situation to be sure, in which the reliable sources are wrong. This is why I am advocating for a middle ground answer where we simply don't address the specific question of marital status at all. Nothing in her biography hinges on it one way or the other. Remember IAR: If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

For the moment I have rolled back to my version. Let's go with that for now as the least controversial (side-stepping the issue of exact marital status) way to handle an unusual BLP issue. Before editing back to the (factually wrong but well-sourced) version, let's have a proper discussion, bringing in more voices to seek consensus on the best way to handle this. Remember, this is an unusual situation, about a detail that isn't particularly important or controversial but may have great personal impact on the subject(s) of the article. It is crucial that we strive not to blindly follow rules when there is a better way to improve Misplaced Pages: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." This is a perfect application of that policy, and a good example of why it exists. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

(ec)"The least controversial version"? We have a long-standing, well-sourced version, discussed above, which multiple people agree with; and we have a WP:OR/hearsay version, pushed for by involved editors, including you (with a clear COI). WP:BRD, WP:V, all are against your version. Having to resort to IAR (when it is obviously disputed whether that version actually improves Misplaced Pages in any way) is a clear sign of weakness. Before changing the stable, well-sourced version again, perhaps try to convince some editors and get consensus. Fram (talk) 15:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

And with regards to your email, a combination of emotional blackmail and a good insight in why you take this action, because it comes from "a powerful person": we have haf this discussion before, and you were wrong then as well, and in that case the person who got you to change their page either deliberately lied or was mistaken. The same goes for your other recent attempt to change a BLP of a "poweful person" who claimed that our article was wrong, and were you went so far as too claim that the "error" was invented by a Wikipedian while in reality it was first published by a reliable source. Instead of doing the bidding of your powerful friends, just leave it to uninvolved editors, raise the issue on the talk page and let others decide. The repeated occurrences of this issue really reflect badly on you. Fram (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

To repeat, Fram, I have no conflict of interest of any kind here. Christine Lagarde is not a friend of mine. We just happened to meet at an event. This is not about me, and it is not about your emotions. It's about improving Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

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