Misplaced Pages

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• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Request on WP:AIV and WP:RFC/NAME for User talk:I Want it that way

This User made the following comment on Backstreet Boys discography "Note2:Hi: I want speak with you I don't think black and blue sale just 15 million and this not with mind seven years just sale 15 million and they best boyband in the world, And your digit not true ever . take care before I wiping you from Misplaced Pages and I ravage your computer because you nuisance just here This user is also appears to be using multiple names Micheal-Nicks, Batguy, Richard Jone, Kmnmo, and has been extremely disruptive over the past two months (daily). All attempts to warm him of his/her errors and repeated removal of edits has not worked. Can someone please look into this and please take action. 59.124.99.83 16:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

User is referring to -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 16:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I Want it that way (talk · contribs), Batguy (talk · contribs), Micheal-Nick (talk · contribs), Richard Jone (talk · contribs) & Kmnmo (talk · contribs) do all have a very similar editing pattern... -- Scientizzle 16:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added a npa4 warning at User talk:I Want it that way, the account that made the attack statement. -- Scientizzle 16:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Jonawiki and sockpuppetry

The person who registered the Jonawiki (talk · contribs) account is causing disruption at Star Wars Galaxies and Talk:Star Wars Galaxies, where he is using his sockpuppet Magonaritus (talk · contribs) (and vice-versa) to circumvent policy and influence an RfC. He has previously done the same at Upper Canada College and the relevant talk page for over a year. His demeanour is generally abrasive, and confrontational. All-together the user has violated WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:AGF, WP:CIV, WP:NPA, WP:NLT, WP:NOT#SOAP, WP:VAND, WP:POINT, and, of course, WP:SOCK, leading to edit wars and the pages being locked. Evidence has been outlined here. This user needs to be blocked. --G2bambino 16:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: User:Jonawiki is now causing issue at Monarchy in Canada to make a point. --G2bambino 18:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I am now looking into this — One of these has contacted me concerning wiki-stalking with regards to the complainant. Will post my findings. WormwoodJagger 19:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I don't mean to sound suspicious here, but User:WormwoodJagger is not listed as an administrator. Nor am I sure how anyone has contacted him about possible wiki-stalking, as I see no evidence of such, unless the intervener has contacts with the user(s) in question outside of Misplaced Pages. --G2bambino 22:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I was contacted inside Misplaced Pages concerning wikistalking. I can't say anything more until I've completed my invesitgations. If you have any further questions, please follow procedure and post on my talk page 74.110.212.198 22:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No - I am not comfortable with your investigating anything. Your anon IP's edit history points towards you being aligned with the user(s) I have identified as disruptive and possibly sockpuppets. An actual administrator should handle this case. --G2bambino 23:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry -- you are not qualified to make that decision. I have been called in; it is too late. Your edits on Star Wars Galaxy have implicated you in a wiki-stalking invesitagtion that far exceeds only your minor contributions. Your assertion that I am aligned with others has been noted, and put on the record. Again, if you would like to discuss this further, please do not compromise this investigation any further, and follow protocol by contacting me on my web page. All best, WormwoodJagger 00:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

WormwoodJagger, under what authority are you making these claims? You can't be claiming this authority as a member of Misplaced Pages:Association of Members' Advocates. That page clearly states that "Advocacy is not mandatory" and "Advocacy is NOT an official Misplaced Pages procedure." You state "I have been called in..." could you please inform as to who called you in. You also state "...please do not compromise this investigation any further, and follow protocol by contacting me on my web page." Could you provide details of what investigation, who set it up and under who's authority and where the protocol is posted on Wikipeda. I also find it very odd that you do not edit from September 2006, ignoring Magonaritus comments, until the 16 March. Just out of curiosity, do you deny that 74.110.212.198 is your IP? If I was G2bambino I would view your comments as a possible attempt at intimidation. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Not qualified? Anyone can ask for help from an admin. It is very inappropriate for you to try and disuade G2bambino from seeking assistance under the guise of authority you don't have. IrishGuy 01:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This is quite odd. Is it usual for an 'investigator' to have only 73 mainspace edits to just 13 articles, including edits to the article in dispute? I have noticed some sockpuppetry at Upper Canada College, but this is something else. -- zzuuzz 00:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess I violated a whole lot of policies... I thought I was following correct protocol... I'll recuse myself. Good luck! WormwoodJagger 16:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought I would clear the air —— I honestly thought I was an admin. I was notified about this affair by Blunders (phone). Neither Jonawiki, Magonaritus nor G2bambino contacted me. You can see here I have protected a page while I was advocating on August 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Neurofunk&diff=prev&oldid=71784370). I guess I'm not anymore, given that I was afk for a few months.

Nonetheless: I'm obviously recusing myself. I thought, however, that, for whoever takes my place, I would offer the findings from my investigation:

There are several indications that place non-trivial doubt on the assertion that Jonawiki and Magonaritus are sockpuppets.

(1) G2bambino placed a request for checkuser on Magonaritus as a suspected sockpuppet. His request was declined on March 10, 2007: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser&diff=114171374&oldid=114171183

(2) G2bambino asserts that Magonaritus and Jonawiki "always supports the opinions... of the other" (http://en.wikipedia.org/User:G2bambino/temp). However, this assertion is untrue. They have disagreed 4 times:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Star_Wars_Galaxies#Emulators: Jonawiki wanted to keep emulators in the Controversy section despite objections from Antman. Magonaritus agreed with Antman and moved it to a new Developments to Watch section.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Star_Wars_Galaxies#Freeman_.22Controversy.22 Jonawiki wanted to keep the description of a controversy involving Jeff Freeman. Magonaritus disagreed and argued that it should be deleted from the article.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Star_Wars_Galaxies#Freeman_.22Controversy.22 Jonawiki argued that the Bioware rumor should stay in the article. Magonaritus disagreed and argued that it should be deleted from the article.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Upper_Canada_College#G2bambino:_Stop_Hiding_UCC.27s_Dirty_Laundry Magonaritus lightly chastises Jonawiki's demeanor with "no comment".

(3) Previous to the articles on Upper Canada College and Star Wars Galaxies, both Magonaritus and Jonawiki have a long list of different non-intersecting editing interests:

• Magonaritus edited O Rly?, Elephant, List of Internet slang phrases, Dragon, Harvard University, AOL, ICQ, Edgar Allen Poe, Urban Dictionary
• Jonawiki has edited Harvard College, Old Ones (Buffyverse), Roma people, Green tea, Auction, Monomyth, Teras Kasi, Carl Jung, Monarchy in Canada

(4) Per the "100 edit rule" as one possible test for sockpuppets (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wp:sockpuppet#When_questions_arise), the results do not really indicate that they are sockpuppets:

• Magonaritus has about 70 edits on pages other than Upper Canada College and Star Wars Galaxies
• Jonawiki has about 97 edits on pages other than Upper Canada College and Star Wars Galaxies

(5) On http://en.wikipedia.org/User:G2bambino/temp, G2bambino makes a decent case that 66.208.54.226 is Jonawiki. There's no crime in a user forgetting to log in every once in a while. Then he tries to show that Jonawiki and Magonaritus are the same user because they both made edits to articles about Harvard, however this link is pretty weak.

• Jonawiki edited Harvard College to create a new section list of famous alumni. Magonaritus never touched this article. 66.208.54.226 never touched this article.
• Magonaritus edited the Harvard UNIVERSITY article to add a pop culture reference. Jonawiki never touched this article. 66.208.54.226 never touched this article.

On the other hand, G2bambino has displayed what seems to me to be disruptive behaviour, and proprietary interest in the UCC article, given his several hundred edits on the article.

(1) G2bambino has been accused of lacking WP:NPOV:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Monarchy_in_Canada#Rouleau....again
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Monarchy_in_Canada#Gbambino_and_POV

(2) G2bambino has been accused of violating WP:CIV:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#Your_edit_summary_in_Image:Queen_of_canada.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#Civility
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Monarchy_in_Canada#More_on_the_meaning_of_.27Crown.27
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Monarchy_in_Canada#gbambino
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:James_Buchanan#Buchanan.27s_sexual_orientation

(3) G2bambino has been accused of vandalism and 3RR:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#Canadian_Royal_Symbols
• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#Kingston_Community_Classifieds
• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#UCC_Revert_War

Re: Wikistalking

(1) G2bambino has been warned by an admin of violating 3RR in an edit war against Magonaritus (http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:G2bambino#UCC_Revert_War).

(2) Per WP:ANI, G2bambino did not have the "courtesy... ... inform other users and editors if they are mentioned in a posting, or if their actions are being discussed." A check on the discussion pages of both Jonawiki and Magonaritus will demonstrate that G2bambino is attempting to get them blocked with as little notice as possible.

(3) Reviewing several thousand contributions from G2bambino, there were no contributions to any articles on gaming or Star Wars previous to his most recent contributions to the article on the Star Wars Galaxies game. The vast majority deal with monarchy, Canadiana and sexuality.

(4) His contributions displayed no knowledge of the Star Wars Galaxies game, just very generic edits.

(5) It seems his sole interest in the Star Wars Galaxies article was because of the presence of Jonawiki and Magonaritus. He even admits as much at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:BaronJuJu#SWG_edits: "I was merely drawn to the issue as I've had to deal with Jonawiki (talk • contribs) and Magonaritus (talk • contribs) inserting POV and highly baised edits at Upper Canada College, and noted "they"'re doing the same at SWG."

This seems a possible case of wikistalking per WP:HAR#Wikistalking. Because of the past history of edit wars between Jonawiki/Magonaritus versus G2bambino, it seems per WP:HAR that G2bambino's edits in the Star Wars Galaxies article and his accusation of sockpuppetry have the "purpose of causing negative emotions in a targeted person... for the purpose of intimidating the primary target... to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to encourage them to stop editing entirely." G2bambino's edits in Star Wars Galaxies seemed only for the purpose of inciting and harrassing Jonawiki and Magonaritus. Per WP:HAR#Types_of_harassment, his behavior fits wikistalking.

I am no longer interested in this matter. Good luck! WormwoodJagger 21:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You put {{protect}} on an article. You didn't actually protect it. You aren't and never were an admin. You must go through WP:RFA to become an admin. IrishGuy 21:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I find this whole thing very disturbing. WormwoodJagger, you say that User:Blunders contacted you, but they don't exist. Of course there is User:Blunder (created 24 October 2005) but they have no edits. You provide a link to where the RFCU was removed as declined but forget to show Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Magonaritus where the reason is given. Interesting too that several of your links don't quite match what you are saying and how easily you found all these when you are not active for months. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

First off, I'll note that WormwoodJagger (talk · contribs) stated originally that he was contacted within Misplaced Pages; he has since contradicted that claim by stating he was contacted by another user via telephone. It should also be pointed out that the user who contacted him, Blunders of the third kind (talk · contribs), was previously party to the debates at Talk:Upper Canada College involving the accused sock puppeteer, myself, and WormwoodJagger.

Now, for Wormwood's investigation:

1) My request for a CheckUser was not declined, it was deemed unnecessary as I'd already done sufficient work.

2) Having your socks disagree with each other once in a while is a tactic for throwing people off the trail.

3) & 5) Magonaritus', Jonawikis' and 66.208.54.226's edit histories cross paths more often than they diverge. If I make a good case that 66.208.54.226 is Jonawiki, I also make a good case that 66.208.54.226 is Magonaritus; ergo, Magonaritus and Jonawiki could well be the same person.

Disruptive behaviour:

1) WP:NPOV

• I was accused of NPOV by a user who was attempting to edit based on his own POV and not factual evidence. I was supported by other users, and the accusing editor eventually resigned.
• Accusation of NPOV by the same above-mentioned editor.

2) WP:CIV

• Confronted because I called a tag "silly"; no accusation of breach of WP:CIV
• Supposedly offended user stated he never said my actions were uncivil; no breach of WP:CIV
• Debate with same user under 1) above; no accusation of breach of WP:CIV
• Debate with same user under 1) above; no accusation of breach of WP:CIV
• Accused of violating WP:AGF by same user who stated he never said my actions were uncivil; no accusation of breach of WP:CIV

3) WP:3RR

• Automated bot reverted legitimate change; no accusation of WP:3RR
• I removed linkspam; no accusation of WP:3RR
• Legitimate warning of WP:3RR against myself in an edit war with Magonaritus.

Wikistalking:

1) Same warning already mentioned above, does not constitute Wikistalking.

2) Agreed - did not perform the courtesy of notifying Jonawiki or Magonaritus. It does not excuse this omission, however 1) I didn't read the introduction carefully enough to take note of this, 2) I didn't want either user to stop their editing pattern and begin again under new user names. This does not constitute Wikistalking.

3) Jonawiki and Magonaritus were indeed causing disruption at Star Wars Galaxies; I intervened to aid those who wanted to maintain balance, order and NPOV. I am free to edit whatever articles I please. This does not constitute Wikistalking.

4) Agreed.

5) Agreed.

All together, this is a pretty poor collection of "evidence" - a look beyond the mere surface shows that 95% of it is groundless. The other 5% I have, or will, accept responsibility for. My motives are to see nothing but the end of disruption and strife caused by a particular user; it is not up to me to decide how that is done, hence I have notified administrators of the issue and leave it to them to deal with.

It should be drawn to the attention of those involved here that Roguegeek (talk · contribs) has filed a proper suspected sock puppet report. --G2bambino 23:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the aspersions being cast on my name -- it's a little ad homine(o?)m. As for 'conveninence': as I said, I was conducting an investiagtion. As for withink wiki -- within wiki community. Now leave me alone -- please! I made an honest mistake and am really feeling beat up on (sniff).... Have some faith! Good luck! WormwoodJagger 23:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You called G2bambino a wikistalker and attempted to intimidate him with authority you don't have. You probably shouldn't be complaining about aspersions as you have tossed the mud yourself. IrishGuy 23:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

G2bambino IS a wikistalker (see above). I never attempted to intimidate ANYONE -- I SIMPLY ASKED HIM TO TALK TO ME USING MY, UM, TALK PAGE. Clear? WormwoodJagger 02:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No. You specifically pretended to have authority you don't have and told him what he could or couldn't do. Saying things like "I have been called in; it is too late" is most assuredly attempting to intimidate. IrishGuy 02:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

No IrishGuy . I WAS called in & I SIMPLY ASKED HIM TO TALK TO ME USING MY, UM, TALK PAGE. THIS IS HARDLY CONTROVERSIAL. And G2bambino HAS ADMITTED TO WIKISTALKING JONAWIKI TO BUILD A CASE AGAINST HIM. WormwoodJagger 02:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

WormwoodJagger, you did not ask G2bambino to contact you on your talk page. You invented some non-existant protocol and procedure and then told him that was where he was to contact you and implying that he was not to post here any more. As to your remark about G2bambino wikistalking Jonawiki. Well to ID sockpuppets you have to look at the edits they are making. Frankly, I too think that your purpose was to try and intimidate G2bambino. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, I'm finding this very upsetting -- I'm not sure why CambridgeBayWeather and IrishGuy are even piling on me, here. If you go through my edits, you can see I thought I was an admin, when clearly I'm not, and I thought I was following correct procedure by having G2bambino's questions about my legitimacy moved to my talk page (you're wrong to assert that I did anything but ask him to follow protocol and not plug up the Jonawicki sock puppet discussion with anything else). I was asked to look at him in terms of wikistalking and, as you yourself note, without knowing his intentions, nor without having completed my invesitagtion, it certainly seemed as though he was wikistalking. He's had you explain his position very clearly now, and I am no longer suspicious, though I must say you two seem to work as a team, in my experience, as this reminds me very much of Upper Canada College last March. Furthermore, I don't care what you think my purpose was, anymore. Please stop wikistalking my posts here, and let the people who *can* resolve the matter of sockpuppetry do so. I will not be logging into this account nor checking anything for the next ten days, becuase, frankly, I feel like I'm being wikistalked and harassed when all I want to do is explain myself. I may even start a new account and close this one. Good day sir! I said good day! (imagine a Fez accent :). WormwoodJagger 13:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Please stop making silly accusations. This is an ongoing thread. If CambridgeBayWeather and I (or anyone else, for that matter) chose to reply to comments, that isn't "wikistalking". While you claim that you were asking him to follow protocol...it was a protocol completely made up by you. I'm also not sure how you could assume you were an admin. Who confered these admin powers on you? IrishGuy 19:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't think you are going to get much of an answer. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just wait for the next person to pop up in this dispute and claim to have authority, and also to be an administrator. Then you can ask for an answer :) Daniel Bryant 09:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked WormwoodJagger's Page? To me, this seems all to co-incidental. An editor comes around, claiming to be an admin, and after a discussion is immature enough to place My final act is to suggest that G2bambino and CambridgeBayWeather are meatpuppets on his page before changing names? My personal thought on the matter is that wormwood is a person contributing nothing more than negative impacts on Misplaced Pages. First of all, someone claiming to be an admin would not simply change names because (1) or (2) people have a dispute with them ... they would contact other admin's (and I am referring to true admin here, not someone who wants to feel important with a cool title) to help settle the case. Secondly, there are many levels (and I am talking the difference between a simple house and the eiffel tower) between the maturity of admin and wormwood; I do not believe admin material includes behavior we have seen here. Assuming oneself to be admin would note you worthy of it ... Wormwood, here, resembles one of those autistic puppetteers, such as the famous MascotGuy; however, it is my belief that MascotGuy is even a load more mature than Wormwood. In conclusion, I suggest removing this "final claim" from Wormwood's page. It is my belief that this would quickly surface the IP/handle that wormwood has chosen to use. Secondly, has anyone looked into the fact that wormwood is a third puppet of the other (2) names? D-Hell-pers 16:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Since my last edit (1) of the (3) IP addresses that wormwood has used to edit his page in the past several days, has cleared it, leaving it blank. You can look through his history to see the step process he used to edit his good-bye message, before finally deleting it after my previous posting. At least now we know several IPs wormwood's new "persona" will be using.

Of particular interest is IP 74.110.212.198. Reviewing it's log of edits, this IP address was used to vandalize the Upper Canada College article, before turning around and making "positive" contributions (I use this lightly, as positive may not be the best of choices to use). It was then used to add wormwood's "goodbye" mentioned above, followed by (2) other address that followed with edits. In conclusion, I suggest that wormwood be a sockpuppet jonawiki and magonaritus, or vise versa (who knows who came first). D-Hell-pers 18:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Banned user edits - against policy (Daniel Brandt)?

Daniel Brandt, who is banned, posted again on Talk:Daniel Brandt. I am just curious--why does this user get to post/interact when banned when other banned users with articles (such as Barbara Schwartz) are routinely RM/RV'd out if they post. my understanding was posts by banned users were typically removed for being banned, and the usernames (if logged in) blocked as socks, and the IPs if not logged in blocked for a duration. - Denny 20:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't. Revert. Block. Ignore. --tjstrf talk 20:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Others have let the edit stand... and during the previous hooha (DRV/AfD/DRV) I believe Doc Glasgow (an admin) had actually threatened to ban anyone who RV'd out Brandt's edit at one point. I am not an admin so I can't block myself. - Denny 20:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Relevant diff from before...

I've quit for now. But is any process pillock removes the above as the post of a banned users, I will rise from the grave and block them for 1,000 years.--Doc 18:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So... is policy we endorse this, or is anyone free to RV banned users on sight? - Denny 20:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits says "Any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. As the banned user is not authorized to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion.". So users are free to rv banned users edits on sight, any block for such behavior would be innapropriate. _InBC 20:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

to be clear, do you mean if I RV a banned user, anyone blocking/reprimanding me is out of line... or that RVing a banned user is fine, but reblocking them/their IP is not alright? - Denny 20:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

(ec)I mean any action taking against a person reverting a banned user would not be appropriate as the action of reverting a banned user is explicitly allowed in the banning policy. _InBC 20:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Denny, nobody is stopping you but nor can you force other editors to remove said material. Personally I think this is a case where his non-main space edits should be allowed but that is just my POV. At least he isnt hiding who he is, SqueakBox 20:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind if an editor in good standing also wishes the addition of the material the banned user is adding, then regular editorial debate should take place. _InBC 20:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe Doc stepped in because Brandt was correcting potentially libelous/false information about a living person–himself. If that's all he's doing I'd let it stand. Mackensen (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say that WP:BLP trumps anything else, if it is unsourced material about a living person being removed then it needs to stay removed. _InBC 20:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

BLP notwithstanding my concern is that if we do this for this banned user, the next person banned with an article can point to this and say, "Did it for Brandt". then, if we don't do this for all banned users with articles (the number will surely grow in time), it would be hypocritical to only give Brandt that luxury. - Denny 20:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

If there is a BLP violation then we are not doing it for Brandt, but because of our policy. _InBC 21:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

WTF??? I really can't believe this rules-wonking! Three weeks ago Brandt posted some fairly level-headed observations on his own bio page. At the time, I issued a warning that they should not be removed because I suspected that some small-minded person would be more concerned with the 'rules' or with dissing Brandt than actually looking to see how we could improve out content with fairness to the subject. Here, three weeks later, someone drags this up and wikilawyers exactly as I'd feared. We are not in the business of warring with Brandt or any other 'banned user'. If they may useful posts, all good and well. This is not a battleground and we don't do vendettas. Article quality is always our overarching priority. Try creating www.wiki-soap if you need a MUD where you can battle foul fiends and other monsters endlessly.--Doc 22:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not the right message to be sending. The message is not "If you arre banned you are our enemy forever." If someone, anyone, any banned user comes back and reasonably explains some problems with an article on a talk page, they are welcome to do so with thanks (at least from me). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

We don't ban users in a punitive manner. If users are actively contributing to the project, there is no reason not to allow them to do so. Bastiq▼e 22:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly disagree with either of you in that if the edit has merit, it shouldn't be reverted, but WP:BAN is abundantly clear that that belief is not policy (no "wikilawyering" necessary, sorry Doc); perhaps a change is in order to bring it closer to the blocking policy so that it states that edits by banned users may be reverted rather than the present language. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 22:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Doc, Brandt is banned for very good reason, and any edit he makes should indeed be reverted. He has stalked me for many months, stalking that has included contacting what he thinks are old boyfriends of mine from 20 years ago. He has posted seriously libellous material then refused to publish a correction that was sent to him, which shows he is not the honest researcher he claims to be. He tried to hound another woman either out of her job or out of Misplaced Pages, and succeeded in doing the latter. He has posted photographs of people without their consent, some of which were very intrusive and clearly intended to be hurtful and possibly damaging to their lives. The only person I know of who has more seriously invaded Wikipedians' lives was Amorrow, whose edits are reverted on sight so that he gets the message that he isn't welcome here, no matter how useful his contributions might otherwise be. If we don't afford that minimum courtesy to editors — that we're not going to be asked to edit alongside people who are stalking us — then we'll lose everyone that Brandt and others like him decide to target.

It's common sense to allow corrections to his BLP to be made if he draws attention to them, but if that's his only interest, as opposed to grandstanding, he can do it by e-mail. SlimVirgin 23:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we encourage Brandt's general participation. But as long as we have a publicly listed article on him - and an open discussion about it on a talk page - we should not prevent his public participation in that. Removing edits that are otherwise constructive is churlish, and serves no useful purpose. Denying him a right to comment publicly on his own bio will not prevent the behaviour you indicate, indeed it is only likely to escalate things further.--Doc 00:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that constructive edits by banned users shouldn't be removed just for the hell of it or to spite them. But the key word here is "constructive". You can hardly call deriding Wikipedians and claiming we have "no sense of social responsibility" constructive in any way. If he wants to fix his article, he can either learn to keep a civil tongue in his head first, or do as SlimVirgin suggests and conduct his business by e-mail. The substantive content of that linked post could have been quite easily said in a civil, policy abiding manner as "Mentioning my draft card burning without also mentioning the amnesty is non-neutral/libelous/mean, please fix it." I find it quite humourous that a man who claims to fear for his reputation because of us mentioning his student activism, which was apparently mentioned in the New York Times and already quite publically available to anyone who cared, doesn't think that his habitually throwing about insults online is potentially just as damaging to him. If I were an employer I'd care a lot more about my applicant's present attitude when dealing with people they don't like than what their political views were during Vietnam. --tjstrf talk 00:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

But this is precisely the problem. Commenting on Brandt's ethics, inconsistencies and contradictions is not really not something we should have any need to do. What you think of Brandt is neither here nor there.--Doc 02:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we do have a need to do it, because of people who revert those who have removed Brandt's posts. If editors would avoid helping banned editors to evade their block, we wouldn't need this discussion. Musical Linguist 03:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

why not change policy then to reflect what you say is practice...? If this is true and supported shouldn't the policy on banning be changed to reflect this? - Denny 02:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Why did you dig up a three week-old dead issue on an archived talk page and resurrect it here as a dramatic 'incident' needing admin attention?? It looks like you're just out for drama, and point scoring. This isn't a game.--Doc 02:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not out for drama or points... he posted again today to the article talk page, and I was about to RV him out as a banned user... per the written policy, but then I remembered your comment, and didn't want to get tagged by someone for a block... his post today is here. - Denny 02:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be an abuse of blocking powers to block someone for removing a post from a banned user. Musical Linguist 03:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Also isn't that edit another legal threat? "The draft-card burning is libelous unless counterbalanced by details of Jimmy Carter's draft amnesty in 1977. That's my position. I expressed this in writing via a fax to Danny Wool on September 9, 2006. If he doesn't do something about this, the Foundation will be held accountable"- Denny 02:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed his legal threat as I understand my reading of the written policy pages. No legal threats, and no editing by banned users (the policy doesn't have any exceptions for their own pages that I saw), so I removed it albeit late... from the page here. - Denny 03:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Banned editors can stop the behaviour that got them banned, and can e-mail an appeal to Jimbo or the ArbCom. If Brandt is sorry for the harm he has brought into individual editors' lives, he can take down his website, stop posting people's personal details to other websites, send an e-mail to Jimbo expressing his contrition, and ask to be unbanned. If the only issue is BLP issues with his biography, he can e-mail his concerns to any administrator. Regardless of our opinion of him, his article is subject to as strict an interpretation of BLP as any other article. But SlimVirgin is right: it is an insult to stalking victims to expect them to have to edit alongside their stalkers. Musical Linguist 03:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are we debating Daniel Brandt's block? It would be completely against common sense to block people for reverting edits of an individual blocked by arbcom. Also even if Daniel Brandt corrects info about himself, he still has to cite sources. -- Cat 12:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ofcourse he has to cite sources. But his posts have been reverted also when he provides good, sourced information: . --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• No, there is a difference between a block and a ban. Brandt is banned. He is banned for trolling, disruption, conflict of interest, outing Wikipedians who prefer to remain anonymous, and pretty much stalking, per the above. If Brandt wants a corrction to his article, he should send mail to OTRS. We should not subject editors to the risk of being inadvertently sucked in to his mind games by engaging in dialogue, because we know what happens when you don't give him what he wants. As William Pietri so neatly put it in another context, we feel about Brandt the way that a natural history museum feels about tigers. We admire them and want our visitors to see how fierce and clever they are, so we stuff them and mount them for close inspection. We put up all sorts of carefully worded signs to get people to appreciate them as much as we do. But however much we adore tigers, a live tiger loose in the museum is seen as an urgent problem. If, after reverting, someone wants to check the comment and perhaps correct a verifiable inaccuracy then fine, but we absolutely should not get into any kind of dialog with this man. If you want proof, check his hive mind page. Just talking about him will get you on there, for all the Internet to see. We should not subject unwitting editors to that kind of treatment. Guy (Help!) 16:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Posted again

Would someone be willing to block Brandt's IP per policy? He's still posting, but is still banned. Link to contribs. - Denny 03:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Blocked by Musical Linguist. Guy (Help!) 16:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Homeopathic

Homeopathic (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) is almost certainly George Vithoulkas, or someone closely related to him. For instance, When a photo Homeopathic uploaded was deleted, the copyright status on the webpage was changed.

He has been making extreme POV-pushing edits to George Vithoulkas, and any attempts to lessen the POV have led to him complaining. I realise that content issues aren't germaine here, but this is beyond content issues to him trying to remove all negative content.:

• Advertising a product of Vithoulkas' (last in a series)
• ...and restoring the advertising again
• Objecting to the use of anything negative in the article - This one shows up funny, I'll quote:

The critique article you've used as reference is by someone who does not believe in Homeopathy, nevermind the general 'neutral' tone and titles. The author, Anthony Campbell, in his book concludes that Homeopathy is not proven and suggests the effects are due to placebo

Book summary. This critique is against Classical Homeopathy, not Vithoulkas himself, who is simply expressing Hahnemann's Homeopathic point of view for health and disease, nowdays accepted by most Homeopaths (the critique is dated 1978). Besides there was a newer edition of Vithoulkas' Science of Homeopathy printed on 1980, with very possitive comments by the Homeopathic community ::Amazon.com. At the time of print of the very first edition of Science of Homeopathy, at the Royal Hospital, only Homeopathic Polypharmacy (combinations of homeopathic remedies) were being used, and that only for minor health issues. Campbell and the establishment felt threatened, and hence this negative critique. Science of Homeopathy is a standard book used in almost all homeopathic schools around the world - the fact that it has been translated in 20 languages is a proof of its acceptance. And please do something about Adam Cuerden, he is clearly biased, dismissing all information about Vithoulkas as POV (please compare the edited versions) ::Homeopathic 16:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The quote in question is here, and is from the British Homeopathic Journal.

I don't know what to do with him. If I had my druthers, I'd block him, but... Adam Cuerden 16:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE

He's now making legal threats: (this makes it easier to read) I've changed two things he objected to on my talk page to an exact quote, and a more exact paraphrase of his argument since this, but I somehow doubt it'll placate him. Adam Cuerden 16:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• I would like to provide more detail about User:Homeopathic's legal threats. Here and here he uses edit summaries to threaten legal action over the George Vithoulkas article. I warned him about WP:NPA and WP:NLT, after which he continues to make legal threats: and . I am becoming very concerned about this situation, and I would appreciate it if an uninvolved admin could intervene. Thanks! Skinwalker 16:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm a hawk when it comes to fighting legal threats but to me it seems like he's skirting just outside the realm of what warrants an instant ban. Let us know here if he crosses the line solidly. I'll drop a note to stop even alluding to a possible lawsuit. --Golbez 16:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the article on the wrong version, let's work this out shall we. --Golbez 16:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Are there actually any sources for this article which are not in some way connected with advocacy of homeopathy? Guy (Help!) 16:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Not really. Frankly, the subject seems largely invisible outside of pro-Homeopathy sites, and that weird Right Livelihood Award. (Have you ever poked around the R. L. Award website? They criticise the Nobel prize for not awarding enough science prizes to the "south". Big freaking surprise, given there's only two not-particularly populous first-world nations in the southern hemisphere.) Adam Cuerden 16:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry to be a bit slow, have just noticed this "Dave, i'm just letting you know Adam inserts FALSE information on Vithoulkas' WP page, obviously intentionally. Just a friendly note, WP and Adam himself can be sued for this. Hope you resolve the situation.Homeopathic 16:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)" which is perhaps superseded by later events. One thing Adam's not picked out from the interview which was the source of the contested views, it indicates that Vithoulkas has fallen out with "his students from the UK in the 1980s", which may explain a bizarre comment by an anon supporter of Vithoulkas on my talk page at 13:08, 19 March 2007: "it seems that you have sided with the wrong guys". There appear to be rival factions in the homeopathy world. .. dave souza, talk 20:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to play devil's advocate: if there are no independent sources on this guy, should we really have an article about him? MastCell 23:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It seemed pretty borderline to me. Critical review of The Science of Homeopathy from the British Homoeopathic Journal looks pretty independent. User:Homeopathic recently added other articles from the same source which are very uncritical, reading rather like advertising magazines. His books do seem to have made it onto Amazon.com, though Amazon.co.uk didn't seem to be selling them themselves, essentially referring buyers to second-hand dealers. .. dave souza, talk 00:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There was an AfD, but it got overrun by meatpuppets (See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive216#Meatpuppetry_and_Attacks) and then, after I early closed due to copyvio, it got promptly reconstructed. (And Vithoulkas changed his copyright terms to release his CV under a free licence - NOT that we should use it!)

He's very extreme and anti-conventional medicine, and that seems to have made him a darling of extreme homeopaths and altmed types. Adam Cuerden 07:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well then, I don't say this to make a point, but maybe another AfD sans meatpuppets and copyright issues would make sense? The article is still extremely thin on independent sources establishing notability, and likely fails WP:BIO and/or WP:PROF. Given the hullaballoo surrounding the page of late, it would seem there has been plenty of time to produce such sources, so their lack is telling. But as it's protected currently I'm not sure whether it can or should be re-listed. MastCell 15:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, we could, but I'd suggest you be the one that does it: I think he hates me enough already. That said, he has made himself notable enough among homeopaths to get a few awards, now, whether they're really notable - a medal awarded to him by Hungary to kick off a homeopathic conference in Budapest, for instance - is another thing, but it is evidence he's notable for a modern homeopath. Whether "notable for a homeopath" is really notable in reality, I dunno. I wouldn't mind keeping the article if we can get him to allow an objective statement of Vithoulkas' views, as it might be a useful study in how far out there homeopathic thought can get. Adam Cuerden 16:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with the above, so have boldly initiated Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/George Vithoulkas (Second nomination) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JzG (talk • contribs) 16:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Well, if it does succeed, we'd best salt it. Adam Cuerden 07:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Disruption by Lordknowle

I am requesting a block of Lordknowle (talk · contribs), who has been disrupting the article at Knights Templar (currently at GA status, and trying to get to FA). Lordknowle, who claims to be a PhD in the subject (yes I've told him to read up on the Essjay controversy) has been repeatedly adding a link to his own website, and been inserting false information into the Knights Templar article, either using his own website as a source, or trying to obfuscate the issue by citing what appear to be valid sources, that in actuality have nothing to confirm the information that he's adding. When challenged, Lordknowle throws out a wide range of personal attacks, some of which are violating WP:BLP policy, and has been trying to intimidate other editors out of the discussion by saying that if they don't have a degree in history, they shouldn't even be participating. He has also falsely accused an editor (me) of copying information from his website for the Misplaced Pages article.

A clear consensus against Lordknowle's actions has been achieved on the talkpage (see Talk:Knights Templar#Inappropriate external link), but he continues to edit war to re-add the false information and his link to the page, along with other information in support of his group. He is also now bringing in meatpuppets to try and support him: HexTokis (talk · contribs) and Blakescottage (talk · contribs).

In addition to the on-wiki actions, Lordknowle has also been sending me a series of harassing emails, with a large quantity of venom and personal attacks (I can forward these along if anyone would like to verify this).

In summary: Lordknowle's website of http://www.templars.org/uk appears to have just launched a new version on March 10th, so the recent activity on Misplaced Pages seems clearly designed to try and drive traffic to the site. My recommendation, after discussing it with others, is that Lordknowle be blocked from Misplaced Pages for a "cooling off period" of a few days or weeks, and then if he genuinely wants to return to Misplaced Pages after that and work in a cooperative and collegial fashion, he would be welcome.

Administrator assistance is requested to address this issue, before it further escalates and completely derails the FA process. Thanks, Elonka 19:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support (as nominator) Given the clear desire of Lordknowle to promote his website, and the quantity of WP:NPA violations, a block of 2-4 weeks seems appropriate. --Elonka 19:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse block as blatant spammer. Yuser31415 19:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment How do you know that the site is his? And does the knights templar have an official website? --Minderbinder 20:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • He confirms the website connection at his userpage: User:Lordknowle. And no, the Knights Templar were a medieval order that was dissolved in the early 1300s. They have no official website. --Elonka 20:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I don't see any outright personal attacks. Is Lordknowle un-civil? Yes. Then again, I think Elonka going out of her way to use the phrase "claim" in reference to LK's PhD (and drawing a parallel to him and Essjay) is fairly un-civil too as the obvious intent is to call LK a liar without actually saying it. IrishGuy 20:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The "obvious intent" is to point out that pseudonymous contributors can and do invent fake academic credentials, and that it is a mistake for other contributors to trust them without question. Please assume good faith. Philwelch 22:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • And it is good faith for Elonka to constantly refer to LK's "claims" of having a PhD (as she even did for this thread)? IrishGuy 22:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Skepticism about unsubstantiated claims of one's own expertise is not bad faith. Philwelch 22:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
        • It most assuredly isn't assuming good faith, is it? IrishGuy 22:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • There are limits to assuming good faith. Accepting unsubstantiated claims of academic credentials is one, for reasons Elonka has pointed out and that we are all very familiar with. Elonka is not even assuming *bad* faith, merely suspending judgment, in the true spirit of skepticism. Philwelch 22:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. It is worthwhile noting that Elonka's comment "All edits are required to be sourced, regardless of who adds them" is slightly incorrect; spelling corrections do not have to be sourced, ANI reports do not have to be sourced, et cetera, et cetera. Yuser31415 20:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I fail to see how a 2-4 week block would resolve this content dispute. It may allow for enough time to get the article promoted to FA, but then what? There are more appropriate venues in place to handle such disputes: WP:MEDCOM, WP:RFC, WP:RFAR, etc. ˉˉ╦╩ 21:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The constant personal attacks and harassment are what concern me. The content disruption is pretty weak sauce for a block (although this sort of thing has led to bans in the past), but the harassment deserves a fairly stiff block, particularly if Elonka can forward or post some of the emails she's received. Philwelch 22:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Characterizing the cited diffs as personal attacks is going a bit overboard, IMHO. Of course I am not aware of the actual content of any of the e-mails mentioned by Elonka, but they are off-wiki. Looking at the situation from a neutral stance, I see no reason to endorse either vendetta. ˉˉ╦╩ 22:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is it okay, during a content dispute about the Knights Templar, to go on laborious tangents about Elonka's character? Philwelch 22:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I never said it was. I don't think that a temporary block will diminish Lordknowle's animosity because Misplaced Pages makes for a poor vehicle for any sort of effective behavioral modification. Lets focus on helping them resolve the content dispute. The personality clash and ensuing bad faith accusations are unfortunate, but that is a personal matter between these editors. ˉˉ╦╩ 22:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Two of the three diffs may count as incivil. But I believe that this diff constitutes a personal attack, in the sentence "Maybe I should write a self-promoting entry page on my life, career and publications, but there again, I don't think that I could be so vain or conceited.:-)" The "self-promoting entry page on my life, career and publications" obviously refers to Elonka's user page. By saying "I don't think that I could be so vain or conceited", he's automatically saying that Elonka is vain and conceited. I call that a personal attack. Aecis 10:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse per above. — Deckiller 22:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose this is a content dispute. Elonka has filed this complaint as well as a 3RR. I think she is simply forum shopping to find an admin who will block this user for her personal recommended week or two. IrishGuy 22:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • If someone violates 3RR as well as harassing other contributors, I don't really see what's wrong with reporting both incidents to the most appropriate place for each. Philwelch 22:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Firstly, I object to being called a meatpuppet. Although new, I have been trying to pour oil on water on here in relation to your squabble with LK. The term meatpuppet (which I have now looked up) is not very welcoming to someone who has tried to resolve the issue. It also seems very hypocritical for you, Elonka, to be nicey-nicey in your welcome statement and then use this sort of language. It seems that Elonka really does have some real issues here. But to start bringing people like me in, when I'm trying to pacify the two of you seems more like desperation with no logical argument. I would disagree with your often used expression of 'concensus'. On the Talk page of the article in question, Elonka has been supported by three people (some names also appear here) who have personally contributed to her own Misplaced Pages article. That is not the basis for impartial concensus and should be considered in that prejudicial light. As to LK's academic qualifications, I know what he holds, as we have visited his library to research rolls and other archives. He is most definitely the holder of a doctrine and to accuse without knowing the fats is plainly rude and unnecessary. This now just seems to be academic jealously and I am frankly shocked at this attitude. As to breaches of policy, Elonka has equally labelled LK with the SPA tag when it is obvious that he is not. He has not been party to any vandalism at all. As to private emails, that is a matter for email providers to sort out, not Misplaced Pages, even if such emails exist. I am astounded at the manner in which this complaint has been raised considering the Talk messages that Elonka has sent on my introduction to Misplaced Pages. I am not happy at all. HexTokis 22:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'm not really all for "voting" on blocks, but the personal attacks, uncivil tone, and "shut up and let the expert do it" attitude are a cause for concern. Seraphimblade 22:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'd strongly support investigation of HexTokis to determine if he is a sockpuppet of Lordknowle. I don't think any action should be taken until that matter has been looked at. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Distinctly possible. Based on their edit histories, they are never logged in at the same time. HexTokis first edits were to the Knights Templar talk page to defend LK. IrishGuy 23:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Blakescottage (talk · contribs) looks questionable too, also a first-time editor who turned up to defend Lordknowle. Tearlach 12:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • It looks strongly possible, and it will hang over this whole affair (not to mention HexTokis' account) until it ceases to be an open question. Regards, cDeacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Elonka's report for 3RR was denied by me. There were only 3 reverts, and she showed 4 reverts when she included a consecutive revert as two separate reverts. It does appear that Lordknowle has been quite incivil, but I don't think such blocking action is warranted in this case. Nishkid64 00:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've full protected the article. Durova 02:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Objection, per forum shopping. Page protection is a good solution, getting your opponent in an edit war blocked is not. WP:KETTLE may be relevant. >Radiant< 09:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Note that with respect to forum shopping, this has also already been reported on the COI noticeboard. >Radiant< 10:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, something exceedingly unpleasant is going on at User talk:Lordknowle. I think I am going to have to block Lordknowle for either trolling or a potentially compromised account. Newyorkbrad 12:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked. See that talk for more details. I think this moots the prior discussion above, at least pending further explanation or if there is sock activity to be dealt with. Newyorkbrad 12:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• I concur that there's something strange going on. Intuitively I'd say it's a compromised account. >Radiant< 12:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Per the indef block on this account I've changed the protection level at Knights Templar to semi and also implemented a weeklong semiprotection on History of the Knights Templar. That should give the regular editors an opportunity to continue improving this GA into an FA while keeping any socks from tiptoeing out of the drawer. Durova 14:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Admin abuse by user:Darwinek against user:mt7

(the same description in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Darwinek too!)

user:Darwinek was in revert war with user:mt7

• revert Nr. 1
• revert Nr. 2
• revert Nr.3
• revert Nr. 4

4 reverts in only 23 min and user:Darwinek is admin!

user:Darwinek personal attack against user:mt7

• personal attack Nr. 1
• personal attack Nr. 2

• user:Darwinek blocked user:mt7 with him who was in personal editwar

but Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy#When_blocking_may_not_be_used say:

Blocking to gain an advantage in a content dispute is strictly prohibited.

That is a very serious violation of admin rights, and after revert of another page and revert of Tamás Priskin and blocking of user:mt7 only tree minutes - a very hard working and very cautios admin.

--S.novak 07:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved from WP:AN/3RR to WP:AN/I. Nishkid64 22:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

good news, personal attack now --Mt7 09:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I must say this behaviour is indeed troubling. Darwinek was revert-warring on the Koloman Gögh article, breaking 3RR himself two days ago, then (just minutes after his own 4th revert) blocking his opponent for 3RR. Admittedly a valid 3RR offense on a different article, on which Darwinek wasn't himself involved, but about a similar topic and as such part of the same overall dispute situation. Adding a rather taunting comment on the blocked opponent's talk page (). Then continuing the same revert-war until today, calling his opponent "schizophrenic" (). The dispute is one of those silly nationalistic POV-pushing matches where people have to be "claimed" for this or that nationality; both sides are equally at fault there. When S.novak added the report to Darwinek's old RfC (true, a stale RfC from last year about a totally different issue), Darwinek simply reverted it without any comment. This isn't looking good. That said, someone deserves a slap with the wikitrout for combining this report with an uncalled-for personal attack ("dishonorable"). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Not the first time I hear of Darwinek's bad mouth. Blocking someone you're in a revert with is even worse. I propose a proper long block for repeated incivility and abuse of sysop tools. He knows it has no place here, but he also knows that he will typically get away with it as before.--Konstable 11:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it happenes to everybody, because everybody has blood too hot sometimes . They were edit warring both, I welcome them both to the calm discussion on the talk page of that article with a cup of tea. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 12:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but a cup of tea is a wholly inadequate response. This either needs a new RFC of straight to Arbcom, unless—at a minimum—Darwinek apologizes here and to mt7 and takes a voluntary 24 hour break for his 3RR violation. Thatcher131 12:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody please translate "personal attack number 2"? Also, "personal attack 1" is a diff to another revert, not a personal attack. PTO 12:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Mt7, or whoever he is, is a nice example of user who doesn't know what is he doing. I started mentioned article, he later properly added mentioned person is Hungarian. But after recent dirty war on HU Wiki he started whitewashing articles about Hungarians from Slovakia on EN Wiki. I reverted his edits, and will do so until I will be user here. Point is I am not Hungarian but he is Slovak. Bashing Hungarians is a strong element in Slovak society, now transformed also to Wiki. He claims he used three sources, saying all prove Gögh is Slovak. Bullshit. I can speak Slovak and no of these three "sources" say anything about his nationality. No source also says he is Hungarian but it is most probable, he is. He played for Czechoslovakia national team because he was a citizen of that country but that doesn't mean he was Czech or Slovak. Mt7 edits are thus strong campaign against national and ethnic minorities and will be always reverted. He has even deleted cat "Hungarians in Slovakia" from Hungarian people who were born in Slovakia, lived there and later represented Hungary. This is vandalism. Only reason why we are here is he is whining and trying to camouflage his vandalism as content dispute. Period. - Darwinek 12:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

First: Good faith edits are never vandalism. Second, WP:3RR applies even if you're right. You're an admin; you're expected to act like one. PTO 12:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Darwinek is the one reverting the vandalism, so 3RR doesn't apply.--MONGO 13:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

How is changing the ethnic characterization of a person vandalism as opposed to a content dispute? Otherewise, let's pick a side in the Armenian-Azerbaijani edit wars, call all its edits vandalism, and block the editors. No need for a messy arbitration case. Thatcher131 13:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is completely other case. You don't understand it because you don't live in Central Europe. When some IP will remove claim that Siegmund Freud was Jewish, info that Denzel Washington is African American or info that Al Pacino is Italian American, I will revert all, warn IP and if continued, block him. I am doing it all the time, this case is special only in the factor, we have a registered user instead of anonymous IP. But vandal is still vandal. Or how else would you call blanking whole "Hungarians in Slovakia" category several days ago ... - Darwinek 13:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that Slovak Misplaced Pages article started also by Mt7 says he is Ethnic Hungarian. So this user also knows the truth but suddenly changes his mood and start reverting like a crazy. No comment. This whole campaign probably aims at provoking my actions and destroy my respected person. - Darwinek 13:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. I see that you are utterly unrepentant and unwilling to address the real issue, ie. that you abused your admin powers in what very very definitely was a genuine content dispute. If this goes on, I hate to say it but I see desysopping on the horizon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's not make threats such as that anymore, especially since there has been zero effort at dispute resolution yet.--MONGO 13:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I stand by that. It's not that I would want to press for desysopping this moment. Dispute resolution is exactly what we are doing right now. But for me the fact of admin abuse seems very clear at this point, and I maintain, if Darwinek doesn't come round and admit he was wrong, then I see no other option. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I see...that sounds like a very severe penalty for matters that might not be readily understood by persons who are not from the region Darwinek is from. He claims it is vandalism, so until someone can prove to me it isn't, then I can't see how suggesting a desysopping (for which neither of us have the power to do anyway) is helpful...all it does is add fuel to the fire.--MONGO 14:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, if one person says Gogh is a Hungarian, and another person says he is a Slovak living in Hungary, and neither side has any sources, that is a content dispute, not vandalism. Thatcher131 14:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher131, common knowledge to Darwinek may equate with he being correct that he is dealing with a vandalism issue. If indeed what we have here is an edit war, then why did you reduce the block on Mt7 instead of unblocking him...or block Darwinek too if he is in an edit war and has violated 3RR??--MONGO 14:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I reduced Mt7's block for the reason I gave. I did not block Darwinek at the same time because I though I saw 4 reverts by Mt7 and 3 by Darwinek. I am certainly prepared to block Darwinek if he keeps this up, but I also have to go to work now and, being neither omniscient nor omnipresent, will have to leave that to the judgement of others for the time being. Looking at Darwinek's contributions, including this, I'm not enthusiastic about adopting his version of "common knowledge" as a yardstick for identifying vandalism. I'd rather have verifiable sources in the article. Thatcher131 14:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Reverting vandalism is not a content dispute. - Darwinek 13:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If a dispute over the ethnicity of a person is vandalism (i.e. you are right and a differing opinion is vandalism) then we can easliy solve the Armenia-Azerbaijani dispute currently at Arbitration by declaring one side right and the other side vandals. (By the way, this is the same problem with former admin PMA, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/PMA). Thatcher131 14:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Check the history when I spot edit war I proposed the discussion and offered compromise. Mt7 was that one who refused. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 13:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This may well be true and your compromise may well be very reasonable, but it's still the case that the claim that this guy was an ethnic Hungarian remains unsourced (Darwinek added something he called a source but which wasn't). Mt7's removing the nationality claim under these circumstances may be seen as POV-pushy, perhaps, but it was quite definitely not "simple vandalism". Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I see, discussion is the way that should be taken. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 13:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Darwinek seems to have, at the very least, a blind spot concerning this area of Misplaced Pages, which make him unable to distinguish between vandalism and edits that go against his view. His blocking of an editor with whom he as in dispute is also very worrying. That Mt7 refused discussion & compromise might say something about him, but it is of no relevance to this issue: the blatant misuse of admin tools. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Time to move this away from the noticeboard, into an RfC? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, compounding edit warring with insults is bad behavior for an editor, but threatening to block crosses the line. Some sort of acknowledgment of error would go a long way though, WP:VAND makes it very clear this is a disagreement, not vandalism. _InBC 14:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Darwinek is a respectable sysop, perhaps he made a mistake, slap him with the wikitrout but why RfC ? ≈Tulkolahten≈ 14:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Because misuse of rollback, blocking editors you are feuding with, and misunderstanding content disputes as vandalism are serious failings in an admin, and undermine the trust that users must have that all admins will use their special buttons responsibly. An RFC will demonstrate to Darwinek that many other admins view his actions as a serious problem, and might force him to recognize this for himself. His current lack of awareness that there is even a problem to discuss makes me doubt the eventual value of an RFC, however. Thatcher131 14:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've now filed an RfC: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Darwinek 2. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration

Even though this dispute is only a few hours old, I feel Darwinek's responses, both on the RFC page and on the talk page, demonstrate that he lacks the judgement needed to be an administrator, at least regarding topics related to Czech nationalism and ethnicity. I have filed a request for arbitration; you may wish to comment there. Thatcher131 20:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Violation of Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute policy

At Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, NPOV issues have been clearly raised on the talk page, in a manner consistent with the guidelines of Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute. This is supported by numerous editors on the talk page. However, two editors, User:SlimVirgin and User:Cberlet are refusing to respond. Instead, they simply revert the NPOV tag. --HonourableSchoolboy 01:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• When your arguments are rejected, I recommend you bring better arguments. Regardless, you want dispute resolution, second on the left down the hallway. Guy (Help!) 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of Misplaced Pages policy is that it is customary to discuss the reasoning behind one's edits, especially the controversial ones, rather than just initiating an edit war and saying "I reject your arguments." --NathanDW 16:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The issues on the talk page have been raised by supporters of Lyndon LaRouche, usually with no heed to the policies, and sometimes in violation of ArbCom rulings. These editors stuck the NPOV tag on it months ago, and feel it should stay until their demands are met, but the tags aren't there to enable editors to hold pages hostage. If there are genuine NPOV complaints, please describe them succinctly on the talk page (no rhetoric, no personal attacks, please) and make suggestions for improvement that are actionable within our policies. That means you have to be familiar with the policies first. If you do that, your concerns will be addressed, but if all we see are attacks, long-winded grandstanding, and suggestions that amount to policy violations, no one is going to respond. That's not a SlimVirgin/CBerlet conspiracy; it's just human nature. SlimVirgin 16:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have succinctly described my NPOV complaints at Talk:Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#NPOV_dispute, as the NPOV dispute policy requires. As far as I have seen, none of the issues I raise have been formally raised on that talk page before, except in a more general way by User:Don't lose that number one week prior. BTW, you are mistaken when you say that the tag was added by "supporters of Lyndon LaRouche." It was added by Cberlet in this edit last September, and it remained until you removed it earlier this month. --HonourableSchoolboy 21:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The UPN Vandal

172.132.195.201 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

• I reported this in WP:AIV, but this was declined as there was no vandalism. However, he is a known sockpuppet of User:The UPN Vandal, as demonstrated by this diff. Proof of socking is at this diff, which references the same issue. --Sigma 7 02:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

  Please take this to WP:SSP; you'll likely get a better response there. Cheers, ~Crazytales (talk) 00:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Although this does appear to be a sock of that UPN chap, the IP is likely dynamic and there's not a whole lot of point blocking it. – Steel 01:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Radio station Nova 106.9 – vandalised by own staff?

At 10:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC), I requested semi-protection for page Nova 106.9, which was declined for not enough recent activity. Since then (today), the page has been vandalised three times, all by the same IP address. However the latest edit suggests that the vandalism is being done by the station's own on-air staff . What could/should be done about this? Seo75 04:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's still vandalism. That it's being done by the article's subject is irrelevant. Report the IP at WP:AIV if it continues past warnings. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 04:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverted some nonsense that managed to survive on that page for several hours -- a bit disappointing to see that, but I'll try to keep an eye on it for now. Would sprotection be a good idea, here? If the staff (or whoever this is) keep coming back, it may be called for, I'm thinking. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh... I see this has been going on for awhile. I'll see if I can sort it out a bit better, later. For now, I'm giving it semi. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! Felt a bit psycho reloading my watchlist so often to see if it had been vandalised yet again... Seo75 09:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Evergreens78

Ok, now I don't want to bite the newbie, but Evergreens78 is obviously not acting in good faith, I don't think he'll ever be a decent contributor if he doesn't know that Misplaced Pages is serious about its policy, and his behaviour leads me to believe he's not a newcomer anyways, but I'll get to that later anyways. Anyways, my concerns are:

• The user self-identifies as a troll, and his userpage flagrantly violates WP:CIVIL with its attacks on Americans, such as an upside down flag, references to using the flag as a cum-rag, and comments belittling 911. Now I know this may cause a knee-jerk reaction "Oh no we shouldn't stifle political speech", but I hope everyone will see the difference between political speech and deliberate antagonism, which harms the civil atmosphere Misplaced Pages needs for good editing. Everything seems to indicate he's mostly just here to cause trouble.

• His edits indicate he has little regard for Misplaced Pages's goal of encyclopedic content (reverting to the previous edit's nonsense after it was removed, describing its removal as "vandalism"), and his standards are strongly at odds with Misplaced Pages's , even though he seems to have some knowledge of Misplaced Pages's policies (more on that below).

• I'm inclined to believe that the user is a sockpuppet created for venting antagonism at Misplaced Pages, or at least someone with extreme hostility to Misplaced Pages as well as familiarity with it.

• His first edit was removing a faux-"New messages" line on a user's talk page , a current hot-button issue on Misplaced Pages. At the least, this indicates he's been on WP for long enough to be looking at people's talk pages, and he knows Misplaced Pages code reasonably well.

• His second act was listing a page for deletion .

• Among his first edits were adorning his userpage with userboxes (just check out the histories for User:Evergreens78 and User:Evergreens78/Boxes, indicating familiarity with the WP community. Among these was evidently a parody of WP's editcountitis, with a userbox first indicating 20,000 edits (outrageously high) then 20 edits (possibly parodying counting every edit).

• He uses terms such as NN, not notable, vandalism, and speedy delete. (just check out his contributions to AFDs).

• He successfully created a new image with valid inclusion criteria, something newbies often bungle, indicating knowledge of Misplaced Pages's image policies.

So, basically, I strongly suspect this is either sockpuppet created by a user for trolling, or an IP who's been on WP long enough that he should know the policies. In any case, his flagrant violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on content and civility deserve some kind of official action, or else I doubt he'll ever be a useful contributor, if that's even possible. --notJackhorkheimer 04:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone has opened a case on him/her. Cla68 06:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that and wasn't surprised that someone else thought he (I'm pretty sure he, given User:Evergreens78's userpage) might be a sockpuppet. I didn't find that case particularly convincing tho. Given how long SSP's sometime take I think Evergreens78 at least needs a sanction or a block to help avert any more harmful editing even if SSP cases are pending. --notJackhorkheimer 07:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Contributions on AFD include "This is bullshit". ⇒ SWATJester 06:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Bulk copyvios of our content on a blog

I found THIS BLOG containing uncredited content from WP while searching for copyvios on the Jaipur article. Further investigation yielded the unauthorised copying of content from our elephant article as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the nectarine post was also stolen. I've got to go to bed so I can't take further action on this now; what should be done? Anchoress 10:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to contact the blogger and let him/her know that Misplaced Pages needs to be attributed according to the GFDL. If the blogger doesn't respond, contact the Foundation. There really isn't anything here that can be solved with admin action, since it's outside Misplaced Pages. --Coredesat 11:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

For the recod, a review of his profile reveals over a dozen such blogs, all pumping out copyvio Wikiarticles. ThuranX 11:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ummm guys, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." - The content on WIkipedia is free for anyone to share. Sfacets 11:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:GFDL and WP:COPY#Reusers' rights and obligations. They can't just copy it and not attribute it or release it under the GFDL themselves. --Onorem 11:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I've reported it via the google blog TOS, so we'll see. There's a thread on the topic on google groups if anyone wants to post. Anchoress 18:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: Copyvio wikipediaarticles may be a sign of splogs. ~Crazytales (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Cluebat needed

Can someone posessed of either saintly patience or an evil rogue streak please visit 1B6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He seems to think that reverting this "perfectly good" edit was admin abuse. Thus far he has called me a bastard and an asshole for making this change. Thread on my Talk (soon to be archived to dev/null using Troll-B-Gon) makes it pretty plain that his real agenda is something else. I don't see much evidence of anything but trolling from this user right now. Guy (Help!) 11:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Given his recent track record and block log , there is no need for saintly patience here. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like time for a community ban discussion. User's block history already shows an indef block that was lifted with a final warning. Hasn't gotten the message. Guy, you've got more history than I. Would you like to do the honors? Be sure to throw in User:Incogneto which was created while this editor debated WP:SOCK with you. Durova 13:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Looking further, I've imposed an indefinite block for impersonation of administrative powers. Am composing a proposal for a community siteban. I informed the user of the proposal, which will be posted shortly to WP:CN. If the user wishes to make a defense he or she may post to the user talkpage. Durova 14:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Community_noticeboard#Community_ban_of_1B6 Durova 14:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• A fine job of work, probably more effort than this troll deserved in fact. Time to give him directions to the exit, I feel. Guy (Help!) 14:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment

I, Homeontherange, would like to start anew. No more sockpuppeting, etc. This will be my new account. I will cease editing Israeli apartheid articles etc. You have my word. --Homey 13:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Take it to ArbCom, I for one am not unblocking you. Guy (Help!) 14:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• I second JzG's motion. _InBC 14:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This message was left by User:D'Azur Cerrare. Given Homey's requests to obscure his past activities, I suspect this is a troll rather than the real ex-Homey. Thatcher131 16:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Probably, but I don't care enough to do more than block the troll and move on, which is what I did :o) 16:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyvio involving ACM and Misplaced Pages... but who copied who?

While trying to track down sources for John Backus, I came across the ACM's Turing Award page here. It's pretty clear that either one biography was derived from the other, or they are derived from the same original source. Of course, I initially thought the Misplaced Pages article had plagiarized ACM, but looking through the edit history it seemed like our article was written by several editors in the incremental wiki-way. I then found striking similarities between Misplaced Pages articles and ACM biographies on other Turing laureates:

• Butler Lampson and
• Niklaus Wirth and
• Alan Perlis and
• C.A.R. Hoare and
• John McCarthy and (notice the last sentence of the ACM biography and the penultimate one of this revision )

Something is not right here... I'm leaning toward thinking the Misplaced Pages articles are legit, but would like other opinions and ideas on what to do. -SpuriousQ (talk) 15:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget Donald Knuth and - came across this one the other day. It's pretty obvious which direction the copying is taking place in.

The best thing to do would presumably simply be to remind ACM of their obligations per the GFDL. Chris Cunningham 15:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see Knuth had some {{copypaste}} warnings on it, I've gone ahead and removed those.

I sent a quick e-mail to the ACM Web Editor (contact info here) pointing out Misplaced Pages:Reusing Misplaced Pages content and Misplaced Pages:Text of the GNU Free_Documentation License, making clear I wasn't an official rep of Misplaced Pages or Wikimedia Foundation. If anyone is interested, I can forward you the e-mail I sent. -SpuriousQ (talk) 02:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible severe Conflict of Interest AfD?

Can another admin please take a look at this: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian political violence/ 2nd nomination

The nominator is a self-professed employee of the Palestinian National Authority, and to me this seems a sever conflict of interest. The user was previosuly informed of WP:COI. I am of the belief that this should be Speedily Kept as both a violation of WP:COI and a seemingly bad faith nomination to boot ("that the violence may be legitimate.") -- Avi 16:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm. If we barred everybody who is a civil servant or otherwise employee of a state agency from contributing on political issues regarding their country, where would that lead us? - That said, I now see he actually claims not only to be an employee but an authorised representative of the PNA. That makes some difference. I guess it would constitute COI for articles relating directly to the PNA as an institution, but still not to all articles relating to Palestinian politics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, contributing is different from nominating an article that paints this person's employer in a less than positive light. And are not gov't officials ostensibly working for the people in a "democratic" society? Secondly, COI exists, and in its context I am asking for confirmation that the AfD is improper. Your concern is more properly raised on WT:COI. -- Avi 16:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, when you're dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it will be hard to find anyone resident in either Israel or the Palestinian territories without a strong opinion. It's not like a standard political issue where most of the populace doesn't pay attention to the issue and can be considered unbiased. So we either exclude the entire population of a country or two, or we just have to live with a bit of editing by interested parties. --AnonEMouse 17:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)\

There is a tremendous difference between having a strong opinion about something and being a paid public relations member of a government. I think it is actually somewhat ludicrous that you would even compare the two. I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that blocking her could be anything even remotely like the exclusion of an entire population of a country.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether you guys would be so keen on blocking her if she stated she was a member of Likud. WP:COI is about the stupidest policy we have, and trying to apply it here is ridiculous, given that your effort is so clearly politically motivated. My view: we should concern ourselves with the edits, not the editor. If she edits within the bounds of policy, there's no big problem. Grace Note 22:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Grace, assuming good faith is also one of our policies. Perhaps looking atsome of the conversation before accusations are levied would help. Thank you. -- Avi 02:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

"Assume good faith" does not mean "bend over", Avi. The diff mostly seems to be a long lecture on your part. It's a bit like the thief giving the court his version of the law on robbery so far as I'm concerned, I'm afraid. As I noted, so long as this user edits within the bounds of policy, there is no problem; if she does not, there are the usual remedies. You could though try negotiation instead of antagonism. Anyway, Avi, my money is on this being a clever piece of trolling. The intention is to get your faction to do something intemperate, allowing those who believe that Misplaced Pages is biased towards a particular point of view more fuel for their fire. Grace Note 07:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If it helps quell any doubts to say this, my impartiality has earned enough respect that I recently got solicited here and here and here regarding sensitive issues that relate to Middle East politics. The latter example led to this conversation where my analysis of policy and precedent led to a fairly sympathetic stand toward the more conservative Muslim side of the debate. I was the editor who imposed a block on this account and let's assume good faith toward the intentions of all who have been involved. We're here to create an encyclopedia, not to wage the world's disputes. Durova 01:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As I noted above, "assume good faith" does not mean "pretend that no one has a bias round here". I don't have a problem with editors' having a bias, of course. Anyway, it's pretty clear that this user, whoever they are, will be run out on a rail pretty shortly. ProPalestinian editors have to be very careful to stay within the guidelines, as you have demonstrated. Grace Note 07:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

With the preconcieved notions and an inability to try to engage in dialogue that you seem to be representing, that may be an unfortunate truth. Thankfully, I have had dialogue with other Muslim and Palestinian editors and supporters who are more amenable to discourse than you seem to indicate. -- Avi 14:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Grace Note, please refrain from the implication that the editor's political beliefs have any bearing whatsoever on my handling of this matter. The fact that this editor claims to be a representative of a well known organization did have some bearing. I would, however, have handled this the same in response to equivalent actions from someone who said they represented General Motors or the World Bank. Durova 14:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Editor says she is a Hamas representative

An issue has arisen with a new editor, Asucena (talk · contribs). She says on her user page: "I am an official of the Palestinian authority and a member of Hamas' political public relations division; I am an official representative of the authority in the online field." And on her talk page: "I am an official of the Palestinian Authority. I am authorised to answer your questions about Palestine."

If true, there's a clear conflict of interest regarding any edits to do with Palestinian affairs or issues of relevance to the Palestinian authority or to Hamas. The question is how should we handle it? I seem to recall that the IPs of offices believed to belong to American congressmen were being blocked at one point to stop edits that might benefit them, but the Foundation wanted to be told because it was a government issue. This is also in a way a government issue. Do we block the user; ask her to stop making that claim until she proves it; revert her edits; simply keep an eye on them? Some of her editing has been controversial; for example, she nominated Palestinian political violence for deletion, which is absurd in itself, and a clear COI violation coming from her, if what she says is correct.

I'm posting this here and not on the COI noticeboard because she's saying there's a government authority involved. SlimVirgin 17:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

How is she "going to prove it"? If for real, you'd think she would have much better things to be doing that tooling around here. Anyways, --Tom 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Notify the foundation, request confirmation via OTRS, and revert any COI edits on sight? ⇒ SWATJester 17:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

See duplicate thread two headings up. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Could this and this (in that order) be related here? (→Netscott) 17:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

As long as all edits are in keeping with our guidelines and policies, there shouldn't be a problem surely? I'm a member of the University of Oxford, and have associations with a number of Colleges, but no-one has ever suggested that I should steer clear of relevant articles. Given that this editor is perfectly open and honest about her affiliation, we shouldn't have any problem monitoring what she does.

Whether she's actually who she says she is — that's another issue. Unless she tries to use it as a justification for edits, instead of giving verifiable sources, then I don't see that it matters. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

You're not paid to represent Oxford University online, that's the difference. SlimVirgin 17:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's a difference, but why is it significant here? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 18:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Because she says she's an official rep — "I am an official representative of the authority in the online field." And on her talk page: "I am an official of the Palestinian Authority. I am authorised to answer your questions about Palestine."

Being on Misplaced Pages is part of her job description. SlimVirgin 20:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a really big difference between just working for a college (which although needs to be seen as elite and exclusive does not need to be concerned with the public perceptions of of the organization near as much as a small government striving for recognition does) and being a paid public relations representative of a government. This is a textbook conflict of interest, if we ignore this situation we might as well abolish the entire policy since we are not going to find a better example of a violation. If someone was simply a member of a government in an unspecified position you might be able to make an argument against it being a COI, however this person is self-admitedly a public relations representative, their entire job is to protect the image of their employer. They will attempt to spin every detail to their advantage just as assuredly as those idiots on crossfire. Furthermore this user has not made a single edit that contradicts anything I have said.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore the editor has stated that she is acting in an official capacity, , and that she isn't just editing wikipedia as a hobby.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Role account anybody? Prodego 20:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore is anyone else troubled by the fact that she refers to herself as "one of Palestine's National Authority representatives here on Misplaced Pages" and goes to refer to her "duties", . If this editor is being truthful about her affiliations the aforementioned statement seems to have at least two serious implications- First, that she is but one person that has been delegated to represent a particular government on wikipedia. Secondly, that the job actually carries specific duties. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but this seem very disconcerting to me.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I definitely don't agree with the proposition that some seem to be advancing - that we should be banning or reverting an editor's contributions based on who they are. That way lies a very nasty slippery slope. It's also totally at odds with our mission statement ("the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"). As long as the editor's professional affiliations are properly disclosed - and in this case they seem to have been - I don't think there will be a problem. As for the fact that this editor will most likely be a partisan, I have to point out that the Arab-Israeli conflict articles are already a cesspit of aggressive partisan editing, disregard for NPOV, original research, reliance on fringe sources and unverified information, coordinated tag-team edit warring, overt POV-pushing, ownership of articles and pervasive systematic bias. The addition of one professional partisan isn't going to make much difference to an area of Misplaced Pages which is already infested with numerous amateur partisans (and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them were professionals, too, as Moshe suggests). -- ChrisO 21:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Chris, banning ANYONE violates the idea of "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". And I think working for a militant organization which has engaged in combat against Israel makes someone more partisan than someone who, for instance, works in a Tel-Aviv delicatessen. Sure, the guy in the delicatessen might not like the Palestinians much, but his job isn't to do PR for the people who blow them up. I'd have the same objections to someone who works for Likud or IDF editing Israel/Palestine related articles as well. Philwelch 22:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What next? Banning anyone who votes the wrong way? Most editors here do not state their affiliations. Should we be rewarding them for being smarter and punishing this one for being honester? Grace Note 22:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's true that it's a bit of a paradox that when people disclose, we tell them they can't edit in certain areas, but it's not clear how else to handle it. For example, we don't want professional PR people for certain companies editing those companies' articles, and if they do, they have to be extra cautious; that is the point of the WP:COI guideline. Given Asucena's edits, she's not being cautious at all; quite the reverse. So the question remains how best to deal with it. Of course, we don't yet know that she really is a PR person for the Palestinian Authority. SlimVirgin 23:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that we only block people for their (mis)conduct, not their professional affiliations, or have I missed something in WP:BLOCK? Actually, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for people directly involved in the conflict to edit related articles. Several of our editors do serve with the IDF (Ynhockey comes to mind), which can hardly be avoided given Israel's conscription policy. I'm sure we have Likud activists editing too - I'd be surprised if we didn't. There's nothing wrong per se in them editing, as long as they disclose any COI issues in advance. I'd call it a positive step that people are willing to engage with each other on Misplaced Pages rather than just blowing each other up... -- ChrisO 22:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If you edit with a consistently pro-foo bias, you should be banned for being a pro-foo partisan hack. Admitting to be employed by the Party for Foo and Blowing Up Bar is evidence of bias, which, in combination with a biased editing record and no indication of future improvement, is cause for ban. If you happen to be employed by the Party for Foo and Blowing Up Bar, but never say anything, edit anything having to do with foo or bar, or if you do edit those things, edit them neutrally, no one will care. Philwelch 00:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

A very brief look through the user's contribution history and talk page shows that she has been making edits based upon her expertise or authority, and has been challenged for sources. I think she should be made aware of the rules and policies, and watched. If she can make encyclopedic contributions that are NPOV and reliably sourced, great. If she can't handle the rules, or won't, then hammer her through existing process and policy. Same goes for her fellow employees, if they really exist, and assuming she is what she says she is. If she's not, she shouldn't be allowed to claim it. Crockspot 23:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, and to test people's intuitions, if the press officer for the Animal Liberation Front arrived at Misplaced Pages, announced who she was, and proceeded to edit animal rights articles from a very strong AR POV, and nominated for deletion an article that suggested the Animal Liberation Front was violent, what would we do? My sense is that person would be blocked by now. Am I wrong? SlimVirgin 23:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting comparison, SV. There are one to two self identified activists for various liberation groups editing currently. Since the "Front" has no official organisation, we are told that anyone who self identifies as such, and works within their remit, is a representative. I don't believe any of them have been blocked despite editing the ALF and related articles from an obviously pro-AR perspective. Why not? Because they are judged on their contributions, not who they claim to represent. I keep a close eye on those I'm aware of, however none of the have grossly violated our policies. I would suggest doing the same for this editor. Rockpocket 02:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think you're wrong, and I think in any case the proper comparison is with a pro-Israeli editor, several of whom do edit in that manner. I think care needs to be taken not to deal with factionalists with the ban hammer, lest you are seen to be acting out of political animus rather than concern for the policies of the encyclopaedia. Grace Note 07:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• I've blocked the account for 24 hours and written what I hope is an appropriate and sufficient explanation at this user's talk page. Durova 00:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Some explanation of role accounts may be necessary in light of the "one of" comments brought above. -- Avi 00:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to add to my explanation. My main concern is to slow things down before this becomes another media feeding frenzy. We understand that new users often get off to a rocky start, but the press can be merciless and the recent Microsoft to-do may incline them to very little leniency toward this editor. I'm confident they'd check the bona fides before running any story. Yet from our perspective we're dealing with a bull-in-a-china-shop situation and the bull doesn't appear to notice the cameras strolling past the sidewalk outside the plate glass window. Let's lead the bull carefully so the good vases don't get broken. I suppose I'll take some criticism for this decision. I also think it was the right thing to do. Durova 01:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You'll get no criticism from me and I am generally a Palestinian Sympathizer. It is fine for her to be their representative, but when she edits those articles she (more than anybody else) needs to refer ONLY to published sources and maintain a neutral POV. There are other venues for her to push her POV. --BenBurch 02:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a significant problem with letting editors pose as representatives of real world organizations with no proof of it. Such persons may wish to bring harm to the organizations they are posing as reps of. Or may wish to deny they are reps after they srew up and do damage to the reputations of whoever they are representing. Important real world claims by users should be sourced or deleted. WAS 4.250 06:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this is about the first sensible thing I've seen said on this subject. What better way to troll the pro-Likudist faction here than to pose as a representative of Hamas and make contentious edits? Grace Note 07:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's all take a breath and calm down

I've written to the Foundation, summarized the situation with relevant links, and asked for directions on how to proceed. Let's avoid inflammatory speculations of all types. I'm confident they'll check this person's bona fides and reach a sensible solution. Durova 15:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Maku

This is a returning indef user, his previous account Ararat arev now he is heavily edit warring here, please block him, Artaxiad 17:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I got that one, but it's likely that he's just going to create another. I don't suppose anyone has tried CU to see if a range-block wouldn't be too damaging? -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He has a number of ways to retrieve IP addresses so I wouldn't suggest blocking the ips since there not even his, other peoples. He has been range blocked before but it did not help him. Also he came back, the only solution now is reverting or protecting the article for now. Or we can reach a comprise by dealing with a sock puppeter not sure. Artaxiad 17:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Emergency: Betacommand deletion at bot speeds - please review impending block

Betacommand (talk · contribs) is deleting hundreds of links to usenet posts and Google groups every minute, without reviewing content, and without discussion at his user talk page despite strong objections by multiple people. He's apparently an administrator, and from his block log has had this issue before. I really, really don't want to block an administrator, but don't see another way around this. --AnonEMouse 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It is actually averageing 28 edits a minute (at least over the last 500 edits), all of which happened in less than 20 minutes. The edits are out of control, removing links from anywhere and everywhere, even cite web templates that is leaving them broken. I think it stopped for now but there is a reason there is a bot approval process. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand in response merely said "he missed some" here. - Denny 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

AN discussion: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Betacommand's bot gone stray!. Probably should have been in ANI in the first place. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it made bad edits to the RSX-11 article. Please somebody stop it? Please hit a ROLLBACK on it. Thanks! --BenBurch 17:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

That was -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Correct. Would somebody please look at those links and tell me please if they actually do violate policy in some way? If so, I will correct them. I think having a bot enforcing policy in this very heavy-handed fashion is counterproductive and only breeds ill-will here. --BenBurch 21:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He's stopped after I threatened him with an impending block. However, I would still like several other admins to review that my threats were appropriate, and whether there was another action I could have taken here; I have never come this close to blocking another admin before, and it's a really, really, really bad precedent. I'm not happy. --AnonEMouse 18:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your threat was appropriate. No, the unapproved bot action was not appropriate. But all that aside, please don't blindly rollback the edits - I have looked at a number of them and everything I have seen except for the one mentioned above was correct - random yahoo groups need to be removed from articles when they are found - but not with an unapproved bot. --BigDT 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I really, really don't want to block an administrator - why not? Andy Mabbett 18:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocking any established user is something to be avoided. --BigDT 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Even in the middle of such a rampage? Besides, the comment wasn't "I really, really don't want to block an established user"; it specifically referred to "an administrator". Why? Andy Mabbett 18:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I was about to block him too but wanted a second opinion before doing such. For all I knew, he was running an unauthorized bot, even though the task may have been useful in some situations, it was still running as a bot. There is a reason there is a bot approval process. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a block would have been the correct thing to do if he hadn't stopped. He shouldn't be making that many edits at once without a bot flag. Majorly _{(o rly?)} 18:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone should have blocked him sooner, even if it was just for 15 minutes to force him to stop his actions immediately. I looked through a random selection and many of his removals were relevant external links that happened to be usenet posts, not cited as sources. Betacommand is routinely overzealous in enforcing his interpretation of policy. He opposed my rfa because I wouldn't agree with his block first, ignore their begging later policy towards usernames he considered inappropriate. PS, holy crap, I got three edit conflicts while adding this. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

O Lord, deliver us from do-gooders who know better than us. -- llywrch 18:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The rampage has stopped however blocking while it was happening was definitely called for. The necessary cleanup is now larger because of the hesitation. It also looks to me like the user has a problem with over-mechanistic application of policy in addition to civility lapses . I left a note about overenthusiastic policy enforcement but further monitoring and (if necessary) intervention may be in order. I do think this user's intentions are good, but he is showing recurring poor judgement. The basic advice I would give him is SLOW DOWN, and be willing to write detailed explanations both in response to questions and in edit summaries. 64.160.39.153 22:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It was removing external links, I dont think this one was doing admin actions. If I remeber correctly, this is not the first time we have had issue with him running a "Bot" or automous "script" that performs controversial actions. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this gonna be cause for another request for comment? Majorly _{(o rly?)} 18:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there's grounds for one. He's done a lot of inappropriate actions but it's not like there's an ongoing occurrence of any one thing. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC) Didn't read the second half of Chris's post. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

They're not. There's no CAPTCHA for routine actions so you can only block them once they start making hundreds of edits a minute. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It may be cause for an WP:RFAR, but I'm not in any state to bring it just now. Thanks for vetting my actions, folks. I gather I'm not going to be desysopped any time soon, and it's got attention from other admins; I hope someone else will carry it further now. I'm going to take a break, because if I keep this up I'm going to do or say things I will certainly regret.--AnonEMouse 18:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the record, I mentioned earlier I thought he had been involved in similar bot problems before. His block log] shows 2 previous blocks for innapropriate bot action. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Third time's a charm! Can Misplaced Pages afford an administrator/bot operator who goes on unauthorized bot rampages where he deletes useful and policy-conformant information every month or two? Αργυριου (talk) 21:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What I find the most offending about this case is that he didn't stop after getting several complaints on his user talk in a very short time frame, until he was finally directly threatened by another administrator. Until then, even where complaints argued that the links did not conflict with the policy, his responses were limited to claiming that the links undeniably conflict with the policy, and didn't even consider the objection.

I do not think a person with this kind of infallible attitude makes a good administrator, not to mention violating or ignoring several points of the WP:BOT policy — I would expect the bot operator of User:BetacommandBot to be at least aware of it. -- intgr 09:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand's bot gone stray!

this section was moved from the main admins noticeboard

Hello admins, please block the bot Betacommand (talk · contribs), as it has several concerns listed on its talk page today, and is making unreviewed edits at an insane rate. -- intgr 17:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for misreporting this user as a bot due to misunderstandings. -- intgr 18:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont know if he has a bot flag, and i am not trying to point fingers, but edits are being made at more than 30 edits a minute. That is pretty quick for manual work. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Betacommand is responding at User talk:Betacommand, so there doesn't seem to be any real concern about a runaway or "unreviewed" bot. The concerns "listed on" User talk:Betacommand are about things like removing links to groups.google, so it isn't obvious that anything other than inappropriate link cleanup is happening. Jkelly 17:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It is unreviewed innapropriate link cleanup. If he were manually removing the links, I would have no issue with it. There is a reason there is a bot approval process, an average edit rate of 28 edits per minute for the last 500 edits is insane. Plus, it is just blindly removing them, from citeweb templates and other stuff. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Betacommand has a bot account called User:BetacommandBot. Has the user logged the bot into the wrong account by mistake? Adambro 17:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This isn't part of that bot's approved scope, IIRC. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. While many or most of these should be removed, taking them out blindly (some exceptions might be reasonable) and cutting templates in half isn't good. He may be using a script to do this rather than a bot, but if he doesn't check the edits it has the same effect. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess, what draws the line? In 1bout 15 minutes, over 500 links were removed, and as far as I know, none of them were reviewed. While some may have been valid removals, others have been demonstrated as breaking things or the links may have been valid. What draws the line between a Bot and a script, especialyl when they can both do the same amount of damage? What prevents somebody from just writing a script and not worrying about the bot process? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would have much of a problem with Betacommand removing links to google/yahoo groups per WP:EL when appropriate, but this user removes all links with a bot-like speed. This not only includes perfeclty relevant links, but also the removal of references. The latter edit also breaks the cite newsgroup template. --Conti|✉ 17:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL makes no mention whatsoever of Google Groups or Yahoo Groups. So what's this "per WP:EL"? And even things in the "normally to be avoided" category should not be deleted en masse. Gene Nygaard 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yahoo/Google groups are probably more likely to fall under the points of "Links normally to be avoided" than your average link, I think that's what is meant. But I agree it's not a guaranteed thing and should be done by a careful human, not an indiscriminating bot. --W.marsh 18:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In many cases, google groups was being used to provide a convenience link for a usenet post, thus, he was removing very useful external links. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! And this is especially problematic in articles about usenet and usenet groups. --BenBurch 04:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

He apparently stopped after I was clear that I was going to block him if he didnt. I really didn't like to do that, but didn't see another way. See also WP:ANI#Emergency: Betacommand deletion at bot speeds - please review impending block. Please go there to review whether my block threats were appropriate or not. Whew. I need to go take some deep breaths. --AnonEMouse 17:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, his last link removal was at 17:34 UTC. You message came at 17:45 UTC. – Steel 18:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He seems to have stopped the bot at the same minute as AnonEMouse's comment here, which wasn't a threat of a block, but was a strong warning to stop. --W.marsh 18:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, didn't notice that one. – Steel 18:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Something similar happened not long ago with automated edits by James McStub (talk · contribs). Admins should be a lot less reluctant to block accounts making automated edits, if other editors are complaining on the talk page and the edits are not stopping. From WP:B: Sysops should block bots, without hesitation, if they are unapproved, doing something the operator did not say they would do, messing up articles, editing too rapidly, or running anonymously. and Unflagged bots (including bots in trial periods) should limit edits to no more than 2 per minute. A BAG member should know this. Gimmetrow 18:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, had I known that, and had I caught it in action (I.E. had he not stopped it), I would have blocked it. The average 30 edits per minute is well over the 2 listed in the policy. Thank you for clarifying that! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand bot approval withdrawn

Just FYI.

--BenBurch

Good work. This kind of out of control admin behaviour is just why some people are leaving wikipedia (if you read the en. mailinglist you understand). This is just power misuse. YES, there is a lot of cleanup to do, but cleanup does not and has never meant automatic deletion. Bot work should be supervised at all times, and in this case it was clearly a case of run a query and dump them all in the bot. VERY VERY VERY BAD. If this was a company, said person was fired. And that has nothing to do with if I like the user or not. In general I have been very happy with the work of Betacommand, but this is just not acceptable. The Council was very unhappy as well because a lot of assessment categories got deleted for instance. I went trough the deletion list of betacommand, and in my opinion the whole thing should just be reverted and someone else who does review all the categories listings can try again. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 04:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, the only people talking about leaving Misplaced Pages on the en mailing list are some trolls that re-post an "I'm leaving" speech and some other nonsense every now and then. —Centrx→talk • 05:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I was looking through BetacommandBot's contribs for a post at BN requesting its deflagging, to see if it had any approved tasks left. It was approved for two tasks which seem to have been one-offs and now discontinued (the contribs check was to see if it was still doing them); but the bot seems to have been used for tasks it wasn't approved for (such as substing templates) as well as the task for which approval has just been withdrawn. Aren't bots only supposed to be used for the task for which they were approved (for instance, I use my ais523 account to (manually) post the output generated by User:Bot523 when it's decategorising AfDs; I've needed to help my bot out manually on occasion but always make sure I say it's me in the edit summary)? --ais523 09:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Bot Vs. Automated Script

What is the difference between a BOT and an Automated script? The WP:BOT pages says, "Robots or bots are automatic processes that interact with Misplaced Pages as though they were human editors. Please read the guidelines below before designing and implementing any bot on Misplaced Pages." Would an automated editing script that does mass edits per minute qualify as a bot? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Bots are automated scripts. – Steel 18:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The defining characteristic of a bot is a program that makes edits in an automated fashion, without human intervention on each one, and they're all basically automated scripts of varying levels of sophistication. Betacommand violated the bot policy, plain and simple. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He was blocked for a week in November for the same thing Ryanpostlethwaite contribs/talk 18:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He has actually had 2 blocks for bot related action, each time he was unblocked by another administrator. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If a script gets human confirmation then it is not a bot, if it acts without human confirmation then it is a bot. _InBC 18:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:B has a section on "assisted bots", which don't necessarily need bot approval, but must make it clear that software is being used, and says to make sure there is consensus *before* any large series of edits. Gimmetrow 18:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The need for clearer policy on this was mentioned, but not resolved, during the Marudubshinki arbitration case. Newyorkbrad 18:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Need calm Admin voice and comments

On the Christian Right page I am in a discussion with an obviously sincere but very opinionated and unskilled editor who is responding with increasingly angry personal attacks to my attempts to explain about citation, secondary sources, original research, and the difference between anecdotal incidents and secondary authors describing paradigms. The editor is demanding that everything be cited, which is fine (if burdensome when directed at an entire page); but then does not seem to understand how cited research works. As a start, I would greatly appreciate an Admin. stepping in, reviewing the discussion, and then offering some comments about what consitutes "vandalism," and what consitutes personal attacks. Some guidance regarding how citation works on a contentious page would also be helpful. I have already tried an RFC and a third opinion request, and I want to avoid moving into mediation if it is not needed. Thanks.--Cberlet 18:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Calm? That's me out, then. Guy (Help!) 23:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've full protected the page. Recommend mediation. BTW that certainly is a single purpose account. Durova 23:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

National Library References

I have left a message at Village Pump / Policy ] but maybe it fits here better. It's about the (troubled) relation between National Libraries and Misplaced Pages. Please let me know what's best. Thank you for your time, Fleurstigter 18:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Advice needed, can admin look at this please? Re: Canuck01

• User:Canuck01 - This editor came to my attention when he repeatedly added a chart trajectory to the article Some Hearts. I removed this information (as did other editors) based upon the guidelines WP:CHARTS and WP:NOT#IINFO. Canuck01 did not like this and reverted several times. I suspect (but am not positive) that this disagreement led to this edit on my Talk Page.
• Shortly thereafter, the same reverts were being made by User talk:76.98.64.105 and User talk:68.45.87.86. I have left warnings and attempts to communicate on the Talk Pages of all three editors.
• Coincidentally, all three accounts edit the same exact articles.
• Coincidentally, all three accounts edit each others' User Pages.
• Canuck01 has questionable material on his User Page. Looks more like a regularly-updated collection of information that does not have anything to do with Misplaced Pages.
• Additionally, 68.45.87.86 has now replaced all of the communication I left on his Talk Page with the very chart trajectory that I removed from Some Hearts. I'm pretty sure this isn't allowed either.

If I'm overstepping here or if this behavior is acceptable then so be it, but as far as I can see, this could possibly be sockpuppetry and that stuff on the User Pages seems very questionable. My apologies if I've put this report in the wrong section of Misplaced Pages - if this is the case please let me know. Thanks in advance. - eo 18:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have also encountered Canuck01 in the past, and found him an extremely unresponsive and confrontational editor then; as well, he edited through the IP 68.44.16.135 (talk · contribs) and his username when edit-warring, almost always refusing to join discussions with other editors on talk pages. Has a history of personal attacks, too: after I removed the trajectory from the Some Hearts page, he called me "one of the worst editors in th (sic) encyclopedia", after which I warned him again not to use personal attacks. Look at the diff link to eo's talk page above, and you'll see he's chosen to ignore it. Not a shock really - see also and . I strongly recommend for an uninvolved admin to leave him a word on his talk page. Extraordinary Machine 19:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Advice needed, can admin look at this please? Re: libelous content added by anon

Repeated libelous abuse inserted in to biographical entry by IP: 80.194.68.162. User repeatedly returns to the page on entry Chris Hunt to inseret variations on "he is also a gay witeboy".

Gave it a warning -- if they insert that line or anything like it again, let me know and I'll block. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

63.72.102.163 (talk · contribs) claiming to be User:The Anome

Just wanted to bring this IP address to everyone's attention. This IP has twice claimed to be administrator The Anome (diffs removed by Persian Poet Gal) but these claims seem to be false and possibly malicious. There is reason to believe they are malicious because obviously The Anome has been editing quite fine under his own account at this moment and the IP has been requesting help in obtaining a password to access that account.¤~Persian Poet Gal 19:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that Anome should be notified (as I see he has been), and once he confirms he's not an IP, that IP should be confronted and warned about the impersonation, and possibly blocked if he doesn't cease and desist. Also, at Anome's discretion I'd consider removing those diffs above from the history of those pages, since they contain his personal information (full name and email address) that he might not want broadcast like that (for spam, if no other reason). --Maelwys 19:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is nuts. An experienced user like The Anome knows how to deal with password problems and that is not the way. Delete the diffs and block the IP immediately when something like this happens. 64.160.39.153 22:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The diffs are a slight concern. You may want to delete them now and restore them if Anome wishes. Yuser31415 19:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I see what you both mean, I have removed them as of this minute.¤~Persian Poet Gal 20:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What's a "Second Wave Wikipedian"? Corvus cornix 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm that they're an impostor. I can't see any full name given in the diffs previously given above (unless it was there, and has been vanished using the Oversight process), and the one E-mail address that I have seen given (an exchange.uta.edu address) is definitely completely bogus. I've blocked that IP for a week, as I cannot possibly see any good-faith reason for password trolling. -- The Anome 22:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It is still there. OldID:116823159. Should be enough for you to find it, but not someone completely new. Prodego 22:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Outside admin help requested

Hi - I was wondering if an uninvolved admin or kind soul could have a word with Alan2012 (talk · contribs). He's been posting fairly lengthy items at Talk:Garlic regarding medical journals, their connections to the pharmaceutical industry, etc (, , , ). Some of these posts verge on personal attacks, and all of them are soapboxy and violate the talk page guidelines' injunction to use the page to improve the article in question, rather than as a platform for personal views. It's not the first time this has come up with editor; I'm afraid he's going down a path which will be unconstructive in the long run. I tried to address the issue (also here, for example), but I'm involved in editing the article, so I fear I'm not impartial and not making a positive impact. Anyone? MastCell 20:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a WQA item for the same user that hasn't been responded to as well . --Ronz 23:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

(Restored from archive so it's not overlooked.) --Ronz 19:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

George Vithoulkas

Can someone review my deletion of George Vithoulkas a while back (made before Vithoulkas changed his page to release use) and see if I was wrong to delete it as a copyvio? It does seem awfully close to the page linked, and gets more and more so as you go back in the history, and the inserted paragraphs and sentences disappear, becoming the hastily-reworked copyvio ones (there's an edit labelled "remove copyvio" - I don't believe it was completely successful.

I ask this because LeeHunter (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) refuses to stop attacking me about it, not that I see how he'd know, and if I was, in fact, wrong, I'd like to know so I can apologise, but don't really think I was, due to order of facts and a lot of sentences which just had their first word or two replaced with a synonym, though, admittedly, there were parts that probably weren't copyvio.

And if I am justified, can you please tell him I am? Adam Cuerden 19:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

N.B. A similar page to the one I thought it was copyvio of, , was made copyright free by Vithoulkas after the deletion. This, of course, doesn't affect things at time of deletion, but is worth noting. Adam Cuerden 20:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not in a position to comment on the timing, but the Copying and Linking policy page now reads "The material on this site is copyrighted by Prof. George Vithoulkas. Note: Prof Vithoulkas' biography information and photograph can be freely used, without prior notice." then goes on to list restrictions on use of the other information. It's an interesting question whether the statement "can be freely used, without prior notice" meets Misplaced Pages requirements for licencing, but contrary to LeeHunter's statements it appears that the bio is still copyright. .. dave souza, talk 20:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe it happened at the time of this edit. Also, if it doesn't meet licensing requirements, the photographs of Vithoulkas need deleted. (or at least fair use rationale'd) Adam Cuerden 20:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

LeeHunter (talk · contribs) is taking an AfD on a subject he cares deeply about very personally. Happens every day. The decision was reasonable and supported by the header at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems. The article was re-created; otherwise, he could have gone to deletion review. If this and this are to be believed, it may be a moot point anyway. MastCell 03:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand

Could someone please intervene in the Betacommand situation. I don't care whether what he's using is technically a bot or not. The issue is that a lot of the edits he's doing are bad. Misplaced Pages is a human edited encyclopedia and Betacommand is using some (manual or automated) process that fails to apply human judgement to these edits. Numerous users are asking him to stop and he's not slowing down. I can't tell if he's just being rude or actually engaging in WP:POINT but this needs to be stopped, if necessary via a block. Thanks. 64.160.39.153 20:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that this might be a troll. I am doing what I can. Betacommand 20:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

*cough* 64.160.39.153 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, he has been nothing but friendly here. He has reverted mistakes he made, he has undeleted a speedy article and afd'd it. I think you need to drop your gripe against this editor. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

He has stopped his controversial edits for now. —— Eagle101 20:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I somehow saw a contribs page in which it looked as if the edits were still in progress. I'm not sure how that happened but it was undoubtedly my error. (I think I must have mistaken one of the older pages of Betacommand's contribs list for the most recent page). I'm glad the mess is being cleaned up. Thanks. 64.160.39.153 20:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Patience: expired -- edit warring on WP:MOSHEAD

14thArmored (talk · contribs) came to my attention on WP:AIV for engaging in personal attacks and vandalism. A quick check of his contribs revealed that he had been repeatedly capitalizing every initial letter in subheadings; when warned about it, he responded like this, and then deleted the 3RR and civility warnings with edit summaries like "Deleted bullshit from wikipedia morons." I blocked for 24h for personal attacks and disruption and left this message. (His unblock requests are here and here; given the unblock "reasons", I protected his page.) Longstoryshort, dude has been a thorn in my side ever since, going through my contribs and claiming that I'm not a real editor since I don't add content. He's now skirting 3RR on the WP:MOSHEAD page, including falsely claiming that consensus is on his side. (It's really, really not.) Can anyone take a gander?

I admit that I invoked WP:DICK when talking with him; I felt that edits like this, this, this, this, and this warranted it. Perhaps another wholly useless administrator can step in? Cheers. -- Merope 20:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A guy with spelling and grammar (or, a dirth of grammer skils, as he'd say) errors as commonplace as he has really shouldn't be causing this big a fight over Title Case VS. Sentence case. It's a Pot Kettle black situation. ThuranX 22:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Various WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA warnings issued, which is what this editor really needs most at the moment. Next stop, longer block, I'd say. Sandstein 22:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Broly The LSS

Please block this guy. He has been messing with Dragonball pages all day and refuses to stop a quick look at his contributes http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Broly_The_LSS shows that he has been done nothing but vandilise wikipedia. Please just block him. DBZROCKS 20:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Blocked indefinitely. Next time try WP:AIV for accounts that are obviously vandalizing.¤~Persian Poet Gal 21:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok thank you. DBZROCKS 21:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Spammer needs reverting

Hbrady (talk · contribs) / Helenbrady (talk · contribs) is Helen Brady, production assistant at WGBH . Looking at the contribs, you'll see a lot of edits to Exernal Links, pairs of links to the site (four pairs is the most I've seen in a single article thus far). I'm chipping away at it but it's a slow job. Guy (Help!) 21:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So what? She's hardly spamming, she's creating links to freely available material hosted on the Web site of a respected American public television station. I think you're doing a grave disservice by blindly reverting every single link added. Many of them appear at first glance to be useful and informative. FCYTravis 22:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, she's creating hundreds of links, two to an article, to material freely available on the website which employs her. Which is behaviour we usually call spamming. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

For heaven's sake, the Web site in question is advertising-free, operated by a non-profit organization and provides free access to primary source interview video clips. The links could be better-formatted, but that's what the "Edit page" button is for. Assume good faith. Especially of educational institutions. Perhaps they need to be pruned and edited - but they certainly shouldn't be blanket-reverted. FCYTravis 23:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing more of the links, some of them appear to be perhaps not perfectly relevant, but the vast majority are external links of the highest caliber - links to freely-viewable primary source video of interviews of the article subjects, hosted and made available by the copyright owner. That's exactly the sort of external link we should be encouraging and supporting because it's relevant material that we can't publish ourselves, but is legally available for free at an external source. FCYTravis 23:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

She should at most propose the links on the articles' talk pages. If these are links to where she works, they are COI edits, so someone else should make them instead. I agree with JzG that anyone inserting hundreds of links to their work site is spamming. 64.160.39.153 01:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:COI does not prohibit people from making links to sites they are related to, or editing articles they are related to. It states that such edits should be made with great caution, and should be reviewed. The links in question are not promoting a product, are not pushing something that is otherwise-obscure, nor are they self-aggrandizing in any way. The content they link to is free and of the highest quality, and as I mentioned, it's not content that we can add ourselves because the videos are copyright-protected. By blanket-removing them, we aren't punishing the person who added them, we're punishing the encyclopedia's readers out of spite. FCYTravis 02:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. That sums it up. IrishGuy 02:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Knee-jerk and inflexible application of guidelines is not necessarily in the best interest of the encyclopedia. Again, before calling this person's good-faith contributions "spam," please examine the content to which they've linked and note the fact that there is no advertising (and thus no profit motive) involved. The Web site in question is that of a major-market PBS station in the United States, and thus can hardly be considered some sort of evil promotional plot. FCYTravis 02:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim an evil plot and I don't see a disjunction between good faith and spam (Misplaced Pages is full of good-faith spamming). And there is no requirement that spam be commercial. These links all have to be evaluated according to the criteria of WP:EL. I have no trouble believing that there are some that qualify but hundreds is too much. We are not here as an outlet for PBS web content--PBS has its own web site for that purpose. Also, the content is not free in the sense that we are about ("the 💕" aka "encyclopedia libre"). See Gratis versus Libre for the distinction. They are streaming videos (no obvious way for the user to download a permanent copy) that are PBS copyrighted and they don't appear licensed to permit re-use. If there is free (libre) video available about these topics we should upload it to Commons and not need extlinks. While this no-charge stuff is certainly preferable to typical commercial stuff, it's only partway toward what we're trying to develop. 64.160.39.153 03:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Correct, but at this point we don't have the capability to develop such content and, as far as I know, nobody's even really trying. Until there's a quality "Wikivideo" project which can provide GFDLed, professionally-produced video clips of journalistic interviews with noted figures in world history, a PBS source is preferable to any other, and certainly better than nothing. Nowhere did I say that all the links should be kept - certainly we should review them and there's overkill in a couple places. But neither should we, as the topic heading suggests, simply blanket-revert them. FCYTravis 05:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) I'm not persuaded that having PBS links all over the place is better than having nothing. We're writing a 💕 that anyone can edit and re-use, not an online PBS catalog. Our WP:EL strategy is quite explicit: if we don't have something, then we should get by without it until we do have it, rather than linking to it externally from an article, unless it represents a unique resource beyond what we would supply in a hypothetical feature-quality expansion of the article. Maybe some of these PBS videos meet that standard. I'd favor a mass reversion followed by possible careful selection.

I also don't have any respect for the concept that "professional" video is better than what we can make ourselves. A main point of wiki philosophy is that by working together and continually improving our materials, we can write an encyclopedia that's as good as--make that better than--the ones that professionals write, and also there should be no distinction between those reading the encyclopedia and those creating it (they are the same people). However, I'd agree that shooting video interviews with news figures is more in the mission of wikinews than the encylopedia part of the wiki project. I have a camcorder; maybe I'll look through some of the videos on that list and see if any of the interview subjects live near me and will let me interview them. Alternatively, perhaps we can approach PBS and ask if they'll license some of their videos compatibly with the GFDL so we can use them directly. If they won't do that, it shows that PBS's philosophy is different from ours and we shouldn't be linking to their stuff indiscriminately. 64.160.39.153 07:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Chickyfuzz14

This user self-identifies as a 15 year old boy on his user page. It's been hit by unusually high levels of IP vandalism, probably from his classmates. Nardman1 21:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Half a dozen edits in a day or two is not a big deal. If he wants it, he can take it to RFPP himself. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll let them know on the talk page. Consider this closed. Nardman1 21:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Graffitiwriter1 vandalism block request

This user's talk page displays many block threats and the user has begun vandalising again at Al Gore. Please block them. Doo-dle-doo 22:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef by Tregoweth. IrishGuy 22:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Poifect. Thanks. Doo-dle-doo 23:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Curious Gregor/Mad kemist

I opened a SSP case against Curious Gregor, here, the user responded with a WP:POINT counter case against me here ("Pete Hurd had accused me of being a SockPuppet. I thought in the manner of corporate law I would bring a countersuit. I have no reason to really believe he is a sockpuppet, but then neither am I"). The accused sock, Mad kemist has twice removed the user page template diff1, diff2 and added a warning that future vandalism will "result in action to the offending editor" diff3. I feel the templace should be restored until the case has been resolved. Pete.Hurd 22:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I put a note on his talk page. IrishGuy 22:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think his response violates WP:NPA. Pete.Hurd 14:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Socks?

Swgg (talk · contribs) & Orel Secs (talk · contribs) (currently under username block) look like socks of SparklingWiggle (talk · contribs) and/or Malber (talk · contribs). Swgg redirected (in 1st two edits) to two user subpages to two SparklingWiggle subpages. These four accounts voted in quick succession on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/My Last Tomorrow, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/YTV Japan, & Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/ADERANT. It just looks fishy, but I've no familiarity with any any of these users, nor of the weird clique that appears to hang out at User talk:Miltopia, so I bring it here for advice... -- Scientizzle 21:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well geez...looks like I might have been right. Malber was autoblocked for using the same IP as Orel Secs, as was SparklingWiggle... Guess I'll pass this on to ever-backlogged Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets. -- Scientizzle 15:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like I've no need to bring this to SSP...If anyone cares to know, Swgg (talk · contribs) & Orel Secs (talk · contribs) have been indef blocked as socks of SparklingWiggle (talk · contribs), who's under a 1 month block for the puppetry. Malber (talk · contribs) was eventually unblocked, but it's worth reading the unblock request, questions & evidence on Malber's talk page. -- Scientizzle 17:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

More Kataraisdabest problems

I just blocked Starfire&robin (talk · contribs) as a sockpuppet of Kataraisdabest (talk · contribs), who was blocked indefinitely yesterday for ignoring warnings about incivility, Misplaced Pages not being a chat room, and making nonconstructive edits. Indeed, Starfire&robin was blocked 24 hr for incivility yesterday by Netsnipe. This user claimed to be Kataraisdabest in this message on my user talk page. Shortly after, someone claiming to be her sister on the same account posted this incivil comment. The edit patterns are the same, so it's definitely a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. It might be a good idea to keep an eye out for more. --Coredesat 23:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Squirrel tag (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and other nonsense..

1. Redneck16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Con-61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. Republicanpolitics (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
4. Glfootball92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
5. 69.246.150.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

All seem to be the same person, and seem, for some reason, to be defending Squirrel tag, all together they have a dozen or so edits each, it might be a good idea to go through their contributions and weed out the nonsense/hoaxes--VectorPotential 00:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

They're also harassing User:Gilliam... -- Scientizzle 00:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Issued final warnings to Con-61 and Redneck16. THe other three had edits to the now deleted article, but nothing as severe as the first two. I'd push for an indef block as vandal only accounts upon next infraction. -- Merope 00:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If any blocking happens, don't forget Kumarpatel (talk · contribs) - created by Con-61 a little while ago, although that account hasn't made any edits yet. Natalie 02:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack

I came back from Wikibreak to find what appears to be a personal attack, can someone comment? Dreadlocke ☥ 01:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ignore it and the editor who left it unless it happens again. Cla68 03:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Dreadlocke ☥ 03:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

family dispute? How to do this?

Ok, so User_talk:JohnnyAlbert10 is a fine upstanding editor. However, his brother User:512theking, and sockpuppets thereof, is vandalizing all over, and threatening violence over it. Apparently, 512theking, who is older than JohnnyAlbert has threatened and engaged in violence against JohnnyAlbert10. 512theking is now vandalizing my talk page as well, etc, no signs of stopping.

Honestly, what is there to do about this? I'm sort of at a loss. They're both minors, and the IP is AOL, so its easy for 512 to evade. Any IP blocks inevitably end up catching JohnnyAlbert in them, which means time and inconvenience for him while we figure it out and unblock him. ⇒ SWATJester 01:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to do an IP block with an exception? In other words, whitelist a user so that the IP blocking won't effect them? (If not, it should be.) --tjstrf talk 01:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You could block an IP and have it not effect users. You could combine that with an account creation block as well. But I am not sure I completely understand the situation, it seems more complex then that, and with AOL involved... Prodego 02:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If you block 512 by name can't JohnnyA use the secure servers? Thatcher131 02:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If I understand the situation correctly, 512 is blocked. He keeps creating abusive sockpuppets. IrishGuy 03:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well it also sounds like JohnnyA is getting caught be autoblocks. The autoblock is the only way to stop 512 from making more socks since he's on AOL; but then again, if he's on AOL then the autoblock will only work until he gets a new IP, so not really an effective sock blocker. I guess just block the socks with autoblock turned off and be resigned to the fact that you'll have to keep it up until he gets tired. If there's no static IP that's the only real answer anyway. Thatcher131 03:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with how AOL works, does it ever begin recycling IP's? i.e. can we block enough of them for whatever particular node that 512 is on, that when his IP cycles again it goes back to a blocked one? ⇒ SWATJester 04:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a bored troll playing with sockpuppets. They edit the same articles, and one of them always logs out the minute the other one logs off. A big brother isn't going to threaten his sibling with violence on wikipedia, and then let that brother log on to his own account and make a drama queen response to this (and then again return right after said brother logs off). Just ignore it. - Bobet 10:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

A non-admin comment: "one of them always logs out the minute the other one logs off" doesn't really demonstrate that there is only one person involved. Rather, there might be people in the world who don't have a PC each, and might share a communal one... Notinasnaid 11:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the rest of it? Would you threaten violence upon someone on the Internet one minute, and then log off and let that same person log on to reply to your comment? Come on. - Bobet 13:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the younger brother, they already got into a fight over it. ⇒ SWATJester 15:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ali doostzadeh stalking

Editor Ali doostzadeh is stalking rv'ing to prevent clean-up of derrogatory and libelous statements in violation of (, ) Barefact 03:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I am just r.v.'ing to the original author of the article. Further comments needs to be discussed in the talk page. --alidoostzadeh 03:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The response of also demonstrates the extent of the stalking. Barefact 03:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Admin Dbachmann filled article by his derrogatory and libelous POVs

Admin Dbachmann packed an article about biography of a living schiolar with derrogatory and libelous POVs, in violation of Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons, and ignoring calls for a balanced and respectable views ( http://en.wikipedia.org/A._S._Amanzholov ). Barefact 03:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no obvious problems with this article. This is a content dispute that does not belong here. Please discuss it on Talk:A. S. Amanzholov and remain civil. Sandstein 06:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack

IP address (24.187.112.28) used aggression, vulgar, and belittling comments towards another individual (SWF Senior Trainer). Please refer to user 24.187.112.28 Talk Page. I believe proper warnings should be issued! 72.189.144.249 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You can issue warnings, see WP:UTM Viridae 03:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that I protected the page that 24.187.112.28 and another user are arguing over. --Deskana (talk) 03:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Fixing Betacommand's bot destruction...

I went to go start fixing the damage, and my god there is a lot of it. There is a Rollback function isn't there? Can it PLEASE be used in this case? Thanks. --BenBurch 03:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ummm.... what damage? I've missed something? Can you explain the situation please? --Deskana (talk) 04:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

See above. Betacommand's bot went on a rampage of removing perfectly proper external links, mostly to archived usenet posting on Google. The bot was shut down, and the bot's approval was yanked, and Betacommand did manually revert some of the damage, but there are HUNDREDS of such links that were removed from articles. And I simply do not find that the vast majority of these were anything other than important links that supported the article. And in removing the links in this fashion he leaves broken sentences and similar. Basically ALL of these edits were destructive. And they lacked the bot flag too. Look at everthing before around 1734 March 21st on here; -- It is a HUGE mess. --BenBurch 04:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The rollback function rolls back individual edits. It's going to take another bot to undo what Betacommand's bot did without a lot of manual reverting. Note that Betacommand's bot seems to have done some bulk edits on several occasions before today. Could Betacommand please give some indication that he understands not to do this any more? Always look for consensus before launching any large scale edits of this type, whether automated or manual. 64.160.39.153 04:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of categories were also deleted. Among them many Assessment categories. I side with BenBurch. Just too much incorrect deletions. Total revert, and then someone else can try again if he/she wants. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 04:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If somebody HAS such a bot, unleash it. There are four thousand plus damaged articles by my estimation. --BenBurch 04:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

How about asking Betacommand to code one up--and have someone else run it. Betacommand should please please please stay away from bot operation for a while. 64.160.39.153 05:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Is there a way to revert all edits between fixed starting and ending times? I can search starting at particular times - any way to do mass reverts with those same times?

• about 1800 from 16:10 to 17:34 2007/03/21 ~ 21/minute start here

  some rejiggering from 15:16 to 16:09 subtract 7 entries

  about 350 from 14:14 to 15:16 2007/03/21 say 5.5/minute ? start here

  about 450 from 22:25 to 04:35 2007/03/20-21 start here (note the relative slowness - sometimes only one every 2 - 5 minutes, sometimes 4 per minute)

I didn't go back farther than that, except to see this scary research (kudos to Betacommand for this, at least), chilling in all respects, how ever you feel about external links

"website *.angelfire.com has 3364 links on wikipedia"

Umm, it doesn't look as bad as thousands and thousands, just "a few thousand", but that might depend on how long this has been going on? Shenme 05:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

that is a data scipt that I was testing for BetacommandBot as a purely statistical function. if you look under WP:WPSPAM subpages you can see more stats. Betacommand 15:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Section above describing problem Emergency: Betacommand deletion at bot speeds - please review impending block. Shenme 04:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Also please see the latter half of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Betacommand#Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute, concerning a large number of users told to change their usernames and given username blocks with account creation blocked so that in fact they could not register new usernames. I said then (on 1 March 2007): "I would like to know that any remaining old account creation blocks are revisited and fixed where appropriate".... but in fact I've never heard that anything was ever done about it. Would somebody please consider aiming a bot in that general direction, too? -- Ben /_HIST 04:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't make much difference now, the blocking of account creation is only effective for 24 hours after the person accesses the account—and generally people don't continue to use accounts that have been blocked. —Centrx→talk • 05:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems you guys want a mass rollback, I have the code in my monobook.js if anyone wants to find it or I can run a mass rollback. (this will loose a lot of good spam link removals though) Betacommand 15:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand as BAG

Relevant discussion at

→ Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group#Betacommand

I just discovered the new round concern over Betacommand engaging in problematic automated behaviors (at least the third time). I would like to express my opinion that Betacommand should not be a member of the Bot Approvals Group. I have no faith in his ability to handle bot related actions responsibly. Dragons flight 05:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. As there is no real process (or any history) of removing someone from BAG, I figure this is as good a place to start the discussion as any. Dragons flight 05:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Dragonsflight in questioning Betacommand's judgment. Betacommand does good work that we don't always see, but every time he's mentioned on AN/I it's because of yet another outrageous action. These issues were brought up at the RFA before they happened... —Quarl 2007-03-22 05:47Z

I opposed Betacommand's RfA because of communication issues. I see the same issues coming up again and again on this noticeboard. Make no mistake about it, I think Beta has the best intent of the encyclopedia in mind, but I too am starting to question his bot-related judgment, particularly in the operation of scripts from his admin account. alphachimp 06:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand has made some pretty awful process errors and has some trouble with communication, but as far as I can tell he is good with technical stuff. BAG members can't actually set bot flags, and it's not so clear what kind of harm they can actually do, so BAG still seems like a place where Betacommand can contribute. BAG process actually looks a bit bizarre and maybe needs to be adjusted somewhat (i.e. to require a bit more consensus within BAG before approving bots) and that too can help correct any errors.

Mainly I think someone needs to get into a discussion with Betacommand about some of these issues and Betacommand needs to be responsive to it. Betacommand's intentions are good, but he needs to develop better understanding of how the editing process works. I see from his RFA that he had very few mainspace edits at that time. Perhaps he would benefit from concentrating on that area for a while (I mean on actual content writing and editing) before going back to doing maintenance stuff. That would present another side of the encyclopedia to him--exciting in its own right--and also the added editing experience would help prevent further misjudgements from the technical side. 64.160.39.153 06:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This looks like you don't really have any objections with Betacommand actions with respect to BAG, but have objections to his own use of bots/scripts. Is that correct? —dgies_c 06:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, correct, I think these current problems basically reflect poor editorial judgement on his part (i.e. the problem wasn't bot operation per se, but rather that he programmed his bots to make a huge number of edits that shouldn't have been made on content grounds). I'd prefer that he stay away from that kind of mass editing for a while until he has a better understanding of article-editing culture, rather than just following policy mechanistically.

I confess to not understanding BAG myself that well, but if Betacommand's technical knowledge means he can contribute there without creating a concrete threat of harm from misjudgement, then maybe it's ok. Basically I wouldn't kick someone off BAG as a punitive measure in this situation--I'd only do it if I thought leaving them on was likely to harm the project or unlikely to help it. (I have to call it a pretty bad faux pas even on pure technical grounds though, that the recent rampage totally ignored the 2 edit/minute limit for unapproved bots). 64.160.39.153 09:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If you feel he has poor editorial judgment, then how can you feel he can be trusted to decide when a bot should be allowed to make mass edits? If he has trouble figuring out when editting by bot is a good idea for his own account, then I don't see why it makes sense for him to judge whether proposals for bot actions by others are also good. It is not punitive, it is preventative. BAG is about deciding when the use of a bot makes sense, and I feel Betacommand has demonstrated poor judgment in exactly that skill. Dragons flight 12:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a lot easier to be objective in your judgement about other people's edits than it is to be objective about your own. If there were evidence that Betacommand had displayed poor judgement in assessing the editing proposals of others, removing him from BAG might be a good idea, but as things are they seem like two different things. -Hit bull, win steak 13:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've posted one possible case of conflict of interest, but have not looked into it more deeply to see if there is any other evidence. See Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group#Betacommand. -- RM 13:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion that would be most appropriate elsewhere. Please continue this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group and add any thoughts there instead. Thanks. -- RM 13:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Important real world claims on user pages should be sourced or deleted

See User:Asucena which says "I am an official of the Palestinian authority and a member of Hamas' political public relations division". WAS 4.250 05:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Real world user names are prohibited without evidence the person is the same as a real world user name (eg User:Samantha Fox). WAS 4.250 05:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, most people are allowed to edit under their real names without having to show ID ;). For a high profile organization like the PA though, maybe it's best if someone from the WP office contacted the PA press office to verify that Asucena really does represent the PA. 64.160.39.153 05:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation has made it clear that they lack funds to do verification of user page claims. WAS 4.250 06:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to be clear that:

1. My idea for sourcing real world claims originated with the issue of Essjay.
2. My knowledge of this particular user came from reading Misplaced Pages Review.WAS 4.250 06:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

So? You could have gotten it by reading this very page. --jpgordon 06:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

While there has been discussion on this matter, I don't think people are currently required to prove the claims made about themselves on their talk pages. I suggest you ignore the claim and hold the person to the same standards of verifiability we do everyone else. _InBC 13:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, good, because I am the EMPEROR of THE WORLD. (But it is strictly and honorary title.) --BenBurch 13:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am only King of a small magical forest. _InBC 13:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• Claims of credentials do not matter, IMO, unless they are used in a dispute, as with Essjay. We don't have to confirm everything that everyone says unless there is a reason that it really matters. —Dark•Shikari 15:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please block Marlon.sahetapy socks

Relevant discussion at

→ Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Marlon.sahetapy

Please block socks of Marlon.sahetapy. Vandalism, 3RR evasion, edit warring, incivility. I would have blocked already if I weren't marginally involved. —Quarl 2007-03-22 06:02Z

Bizarre vandal on Hans Reiser

I'd like to ask for some more help and eyes on the articles Hans Reiser and Reiser4.

For those not already aware, Hans Reiser is a bio article about a computer scientist who invented a rather well known Linux filesystem (Reiser4), but is better known for having been arrested for allegedly having killed his wife a few months ago.

Today, we had an IP user show up on the articles and start repeatedly adding a very long original research filesystem performance section to both the filesystem article and his biography; in addition to uncited OR, it's also completely inappropriate for the biography article. First IP address got a bunch of nice requests to stop and then warnings, and eventually got himself blocked along with a couple of socks by two other admins.

IPs from the same block (219.88.0.0/16) are now hopping in to the article talk page (Talk:Hans Reiser) and twice have inserted the content repeatedly along with claims that "The Jews" keep removing the info ( for example).

User:Slowking Man sprotected the article for a couple of days, but my earlier interpretation that we have a clueless newbie is yielding to fears that we have a serious troll here. The problem is that they're operating from a wide IP range (so far, 219.88.155.109 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 219.88.77.237 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 219.88.81.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 219.88.88.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 219.88.80.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 219.88.158.100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and 219.88.165.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) ). These are apparently all in New Zealand, a very large set of possibly affected netblocks worth.

Are there known New Zealand trolls who might be doing something like this?

Other suggestions?

Disclaimer: I knew Hans in college, though I haven't been in contact since. This, combined with the random apparently antisemetic bent of the anon editor, is making my neutrality rather bent on this matter. I blocked one of the IPs for antisemetic comments but I really don't want to be the one with the hammer here.

Any help appreciated. Georgewilliamherbert 07:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added both articles to my watchlist and will rollback edits on sight and block as necessary. I'm in NZ, use Reiser3 and have read the specs for Reiser4, so I'm reasonably well placed both in terms of timezone and technical understanding to deal with this.-gadfium 08:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I hear that it is a great filesystem, but installation is murder. --BenBurch 17:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

How do I deal with User:Alx 91?

This user's behavior is rather bizzare. He does valuable work on copyright templates, especially fair use templates. However, he uploads photos like Image:Mickey Mouse Publicity Photo.jpg and Image:Sylvester Publicity Photo.jpg, which I recently deleted because they were so poor quality that I speedied them for having completely invalid {{Promotional}} tags. He also uploads many photos that are replaceable fair use photos or has disallowed licenses. See his upload log. Jesse Viviano 08:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppet case

Can someone please have a look at This? It is highly suspected that there is merit to the possible sockpuppetry of some users here, and it might be good to have an RFCU. Can anybody offer help or advice on this? Thanks! Shervink 09:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

If you think checkuser would be beneficial, you can certainly request one. Seraphimblade 10:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I requested a CU . Shervink 10:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

A case for checkuser?

I'm not sure if this situation warrants a request for checkuser or not. I think it probably does, but figured I could just ask here. Over the last 2 weeks, multiple users, or usernames at least, have been attempting to insert information about a police officer who may or may not exist in Minnesota. 9 articles have been deleted. Several others have had information removed. It seems like every time an article or mention is deleted, a new username appears to recreate or reinsert with misleading edit summaries like 'miss spell', 'word order', or 'wording'. So far, the following is what I've been able to put together.

Users (creation date)

• BARKLEY J (talk · contribs) (3-22-07)
• Garagehh (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• NickOwnes (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• Burnsvillemike (talk · contribs) (3-8-07)
• DeaninDetroit (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• Joeinalabama (talk · contribs) (3-20-07)
• Billrusslen (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• Parkermax (talk · contribs) (3-8-07)
• NateinFlorida (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• Gregwolen (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• Seaninwashington (talk · contribs) (3-20-07)
• Carlostexas (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• Gregsteres (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• Timwiller (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• Glenwolling (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• Dr.Shartell (talk · contribs) (3-21-07)
• JamesinNevada (talk · contribs) (3-18-07)
• 66.41.155.45 (talk · contribs)

Pages created

• Michael Satter - deleted 6 times since March 8.
• Mike Satter - 1 time
• Michael (Mike) Satter - 1 time
• Michael Satter Minnesota Law Enforcement - Probation - 1 time

Other articles information or pictures has been added to

• National Institute of Corrections
• Police training officer
• United States District Court for the District of Minnesota
• Police
• Lords of the Underground - I guess he wanted to be a rapper on the 11th...
• Bulletproof vest
• Prison
• Norm Coleman

I guess I'm just confused about whether a checkuser would be declined because it's too obvious, but I'd like to root out any other socks that have already been created and think that might be considered a fishing trip. Either way, none of the above have been blocked yet, and I'm pretty sure that they've done enough collective damage to justify a block at least. Sorry for the excessive section length. Thanks ahead of time for any advice or help. --Onorem 10:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to waste a checkuser's time with this, these quack about as loud as it gets. The obvious socks have been blocked indefinitely and the puppetmaster for a week. Seraphimblade 11:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I thought it might be obvious enough to keep checkuser out of it. I'll keep my eye out for others that appear with a high quack ratio and report them straight to WP:AIV. --Onorem 11:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks and abuse

Hello, I have been subjected to personal attacks and abuse as can be seen on my talk page. Thanks. 144.132.217.29 11:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have warned both editors - that's pretty offensive stuff. – Riana 11:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that this anonymous user has a history of vandalism, abuse and sockpuppetry. See these pages for details. -- Chuq 12:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

And is that a good reason to allow vicious personal attacks on his/her talk page to stand, Chuq? I notice you restored the comments that Riana deleted. I think Riana was correct in removing them, and I wish you had not reversed him/her. Jeffpw 12:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I came here to say the same thing; I've again removed the comments. No provocation excuses those comments. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 12:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Her, Jeff :) and while I can appreciate how frustrating this editor's behaviour has been, I don't believe 'do us all a favour and die' should be allowed to stand. – Riana 13:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

User:1523 attacking me as psychotic that should be excluded from Misplaced Pages and others

User:1523 (Japanese Misplaced Pages username Arpeggio, Japanese Userpage) has been in a content dispute with me and (primarily) User:08albatross (More known online as Norton, Japanese Misplaced Pages username Ntn, Japanese Userpage) on a claim 1523 made on Case Closed-- this dispute has been one spilled from the Japanese Misplaced Pages, and hence most arguments (Mainly in Talk:Case Closed#Vandalism? and User Talk:1523) are in Japanese-- there isn't much I can participate in their arguments even I have to admit I am a party in the dispute, siding with 08albatross.

Yesterday 1523 left a message on his talk page. I smelt trouble since I was mentioned in the article and he specifically mentioned my having some form of autism (I have been diagnosed of Asperger's Syndrome.) I was surprised that several people that I asked to translate this message has claimed 1523 called me a "psychotic" and should be banned from Misplaced Pages, and I saw translators were in more a rage than me. (The English translation can be read at User:Samuel Curtis/Translation of 1523's Message.) I am sure the language also attacked 08albatross, calling us human trash that has no use in the society (社会的に無用なゴミ人間), among others. Also, I'm sure he attacked Misplaced Pages as a whole, also.

Hence, I request admins to inquire. --Samuel Curtis-- _{TALK·CONTRIBS} 11:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not an admin but I can suggest that you investigate this user who is attacking you's contributions and see if you can see any other attacks made by him/her. It would also help greatly to get a second hand opinion on this or ask an administrator or another editor who can translate to confirm what the user is saying or add a reference on to the page of where you found the translation then if it confirms that it was an attack against you then I would suggest leaving {{attack}} or he may be blocked if he has made other personal attacks. If you need any more help, leave me a note on my talk page. Cheers! Tellyaddict 16:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he has commented on any of my messages in particular; you can read my messages in this issues in the talk threads. As for the claim that I have autism, appreantly he searched my name on the web. The translated message was from . It was originally locked for my fiancee and the translator (summonillusion), who is a Japanese who resides in the US.--Samuel Curtis-- _{TALK·CONTRIBS} 16:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Caches and Page Histories

Someone really needs to track down this bug, because it has too great a possibility of creating some serious damage, with pages randomly reverting to much older versions--VectorPotential 11:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• Are the scripts and the AWB version you used when this occured up-to-date? You should probably be careful and check any edits you make that way to see if you can track down under what circumstances it occurs. - Mgm| 12:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It's happened to more than one user, at least one of whom had a blank monobook.js (if I remember correctly; it was a while ago so I might be wrong). People report this problem on WP:VPT occasionally. --ais523 12:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    • It happened again just now: . I wonder if it's the diff engine that's borked, or the page itself that's having the problem; it seems to be the page in this case, but earlier something happened to me involving the diff engine (which I mentioned here; the particular diff that borked for me then seems to be working for me now). --ais523 16:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Based on the way that this is happening to different people with different setups, User:bbatsell and I suspect it's a server bug. --ais523 17:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
        • More weirdness; this diff diffed against the 10th rather than the previous edit for some reason last I checked it but it worked again when I checked it again a bit later. --ais523 18:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC) (edit --ais523 18:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

Reuploader of CP images

DoctorJimmy has been uploading images previously deleted for not having a license and others that are obviously copyrighted. Luigi30 (Taλk) 13:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

PookieYum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

PookieYum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is one of the more problematic editors around. Although some of his edits appear legitimate, he persists in vandalising. Even though he received a final warning on Tuesday, he moved Winnie-the-Pooh to Winnie Poo on Wednesday and made some unwanted edits (to put it mildly) to 555 95472 and Peppermint Patty. It doesn't look like he is responsive to warnings, so I'm not sure another warning would be effective. I think this warrants the (continuing) attention of an admin. Errabee 14:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

realitybabble.com

I've been following a user who has been persistently linking to realitybabble.com, and reverting the additions as spamming, and requesting that the user discuss the link in the talk pages. So far they have not done so, and have persisted in adding the link. The user was blocked once for their behavior, but seems to use multiple IPs, so blocks aren't too effective. The most recent case is somewhat different, as they seem to have added some content to accompany the link. The content smacks somewhat of trivia, and the section to which it is being added (well, the article in general) is in serious need of some cleanup already, but in an attempt to assume good faith, and not unduly harass a prospective "member", I haven't reverted it, as I am inclined to. I'm basically posting here to get some prompt input on how to proceed. Dancter 15:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Close an RFA candidate wishes to withdraw from

Can somebody who knos the proper templates close Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Kermanshahi as the candidate has expressed they would like to withdraw? (I also wouldent mind a quick link to where I can find those templates as well). Thanks -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

They're {{rfaf}} (top, for a failed RfA; a passing RfA is {{rfap}}) and {{rfab}}. However, there are other housekeeping jobs needed as well as just the closebox. --ais523 15:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. Category:Archival templates has all these sorts of templates listed. WjBscribe 15:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hullaballoo at AfD

User:Matrix17 has put up Paris Hilton, Jade Goody and Organizers of the September 11, 2001 attacks up for deletion using some pretty dodgy nomination criteria. Because of WP:AGF I won't say this is trolling but these are pretty obvious snowball keeps and the sooner they're closed, the less chance of this developing into a Wiki-drama there'll be. --Folantin 15:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• Seems like several admins speedy closed all the nominations and the user was approached on his talk page.¤~Persian Poet Gal 15:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Can we delete Jade Goody? Not the article, the "slebrity". Guy (Help!) 18:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What a User Profile...

Anybody just have a look at recent changes and catch sight of this? How much does AGF apply here? Not sure if you can block on sight for something like that but it certainly doesn't indicate much good.¤~Persian Poet Gal 15:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If this guy carries on like his last 2 edits, I don't think he'll be here much longer, anyway... – Riana 15:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems he already has racked up a couple vandal edits according to this: Special:Contributions/Bluesclues666.¤~Persian Poet Gal 15:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

We are not required to add truthful material. Only verifiable material as it says in WP:V. So that user is actually making a staement in line with policy. Its a weird Wiki world aint it? 8-)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.8.166 (talk • contribs)

I'm leaving a note on his talkpage. Newyorkbrad 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What? to tell him he cant quote policy or the fact that hes not the 'awsome est' person ever?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.8.166 (talk • contribs)

At the same time those who add hoax material are warned and eventually blocked if they continue. Hoax information is drastically different than using verifiable information.¤~Persian Poet Gal 15:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree hoax material should not be added. But lets not go down the road of blocking people because we are offended by what they say (esp when there is some truth in he statement)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.8.166 (talk • contribs)

I don't believe anyone suggested blocking them for the statement on their userpage. --Onorem 16:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats where this road leads, believe me. I ve been down it enough times to know 8-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.8.166 (talk • contribs)

Logical fallacy? The user announced their intent to vandalize, then vandalized. You don't think that's worth commenting on to them? --Onorem 17:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Its worth commenting that they should not vandalise, yes. But really its not worth commenting on the contents of their user page which is going to harm no one. This sort of comment may lead to escalation. Best to ignore comments like this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.8.166 (talk • contribs)

Care to explain what you did to A Man In Black's page hmmmm?¤~Persian Poet Gal 17:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This looks like some variant of a troll - I wouldn't be surprised if the anon is connected to the named account somehow. - David Oberst 17:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've nuked the userpage, in any event. This kind of user page is the sort of shit up with which we do not put. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The style of the anon's comments seems very similar to that of banned user Light current. -Hit bull, win steak 18:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

series of bad-faith AFD nominations

by user User:Matrix17. I first noticed it when he/she was one of the two users pushing for delete on Black people and the DRV for that. After checking out AFD for a bit, I've found a long history of bad faith nominations. Jade Goody, Michelle Bass, Organizers of the September 11 2001 attacks(with the rationale that "there's no proof al qaeda did it"), Paris Hilton???...A quick trip through his edit sums shows accusations of racism everywhere, and no grasp of notability policy whatsoever. Also is wont to add conspiracy theory external links (on the marilyn monroe article: "the file found points out that marilyns death wasnt suicied but murder... and the presedent was involved.. hot news" "# FBI HAS FOUND FILES ON THAT POINTS OUT JOHN KENNEDYS INVOLVEMENT IN THE SUICIED/MURDER OF MARILYN..ADDING EXTERNAL, ")...

It's interesting that a user that's added probably 50 beauty pageant contestants has no grasp of notability guidelines, either for inclusion or for deletion.

Anyway, I feel I have a conflict of interest with this user based on mutual involvement with the AFDs, so I'd appreciate someone else taking action. ⇒ SWATJester 15:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

After looking over the contributions and the two posts on this page, I gave the user a 48 hour block for the following reasons: bad faith afd nominations, incivility, and possible point violations.¤~Persian Poet Gal 15:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

My auto AFD tool is broken, but it would be a good idea for someone to go through his contribs and mass nominate all the pageant contestants and song contest contestants he's created, nearly none of them have any notability whatsoever, and a handful don't even try to assert notability. ⇒ SWATJester 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth noting that the same user has been blocked on several occasions on the Swedish Misplaced Pages for similar behavior, the last is a month long block. Something he also complained about by calling it censorship. He has also been found creating sock puppets . --Strangnet 16:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Kl4Uz (talk · contribs)

This is user is probably a sockpuppet ana undoubtely a single-use account (see his contributions: he created the account in 2005 and made some 15 edits, then nothing until some days ago and the only thing he does is to cast his vote in Talk:South Tyrol). I can live with this but not with his offences: he called me Italo-fascist and Mr. Mussolini. What can I do about it? --Checco 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Webmaster (talk · contribs)

I recommend a {{Usernameblock}}, user is not a wikimedia webmaster (I don't believe the title belongs to anyone) -- Cat 15:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The name doesn't violate User-name policy, I think, but if you really want to find out if others agree with you, take it to WP:RFCN. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 16:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

User has edited (albeit sporadically) for more than two years, there is no WP title of "webmaster"—I say let it go, but Mel is right that if you want to pursue it, WP:RFCN is the vehicle. Newyorkbrad 16:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't "Webmaster" be like User:Administrator? -- Cat 16:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have initiated the discussion nevertheless -- Cat 16:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, because the latter would be impersonating an administrator, while the former isn't impersonating anybody, as there's no Webmaster to impersonate. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 16:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It gives the wrong message. User:Person in charge of wikipedia would be blocked even though such a title doesn't really exist. -- Cat 16:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's not a title, it's a description. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 16:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Disruption, sterile revert warring, POV pushing, refusal to discuss changes at Red Army

One or two Ukrainian editors have been engaged in an ongoing edit war with others at the Red Army article over the past months. The problem seemed to die down for a while and go away, but today Ukrained (talk · contribs) has resumed his edit war, deleting informational templates without discussion and without trying to reach consensus at the talk page. This is disruptive behavior. He has been blocked repeatedly for 3RR, incivility, and personal attacks. The grand sum of his argument is that the templates are "POV" and "wrong". Yet, he will not explain why they are wrong, will not contribute in discussions on how to improve them, and continues to delete them from the article. The undiscussed deletions fly in the face of consensus, as a number of people have continuously reverted this deletion and implored this person to find a diplomatic solution to his grievance. Instead, he deletes the table, claims IT is "POV" , and won't discuss.

This editor is constantly trying to push a Ukrainian nationalist agenda at the expense of verifiable information and hard facts. He accuses an admin of making "unsolicited POV changes" and reverts again . He acknowledges his participation in the edit war .

I told him that I would report him here if he did not contribute to a rational discussion of the templates and he did not respond .

This nonsense is ongoing. If Ukrained has an issue with content, he should discuss and reach consensus on the talk page, which he has not done. Something should be done about this editors constant use of edit warring to push his agendas. TheQuandry 16:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal Attacks and Uncivil Behavior

Burgz33 (talk · contribs) has made and continues to make attacks/act uncivily towards and against other editors, even after final warnings have been issued. Here are links to the most recent violations:

• 1)From Talk:Jordin Tootoo
• 2)From Talk:Juggalo
• 3)From User talk:Yankees76
• 3)From Talk:LimeWire
• 4)From User talk:Kubigula
• 5)From User talk:82.141.61.54
• 6)From Talk:La Coka Nostra

There are numerous other older instances. Thanks Yankees76 17:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• Blocked 24h for personal attacks.⇒ SWATJester 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

user:Eupator automatically reverting, edit varring, acting in bad faith

user:Eupator has been edit warring, incessantly reverting, using disruptive editing and removing fully sourced, authoritative, academic, verifiable evidence (such as from Encyclopedia Iranica, etc.), from the articles on Tigranes the Great, Orontid Dynasty, Artaxiad Dynasty, and Koryun. Despite this going on for months, nothing was done to user Eupator for reverting pages, often with no or little explanation, for DOZENS of times. At times, he would also meatpuppet, by gaming the system, and asking a large possy of his followers to do the reverting for him.

I have posted this at also since we are both part of the Armenia-Azerbaijan ArbCom and there is a temporary injunction. I did not know which page is best for reporting. --adil 18:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Consider the page Tigranes the Great

• Revision 08:48, March 22, 2007

• Revision as of 00:02, March 2, 2007

• Revision as of 16:14, February 20, 2007

• Revision as of 14:20, February 20, 2007

• Revision as of 12:38, February 20, 2007

• Revision as of 14:14, January 27, 2007

• Revision as of 13:49, January 27, 2007

• Revision as of 17:23, June 10, 2006

• Revision as of 08:52, June 10, 2006

• Revision as of 23:31, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 18:43, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 07:39, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 13:50, June 8, 2006

• Revision as of 08:13, June 8, 2006

• Revision as of 07:46, June 7, 2006

• Revision as of 08:22, June 1, 2006

Consider the page Koryun

• Current revision (08:49, March 22, 2007)

• Revision as of 08:23, June 1, 2006

• Revision as of 07:48, June 7, 2006

• Revision as of 08:17, June 8, 2006

• Revision as of 13:51, June 8, 2006

• Revision as of 07:40, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 18:42, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 23:35, June 9, 2006

• Revision as of 08:51, June 10, 2006

• Revision as of 17:23, June 10, 2006

Consider the page Orontid Dynasty

• Current revision (08:48, March 22, 2007)

• Revision as of 16:38, March 1, 2007

Consider the page Artaxiad Dynasty

• Current revision (08:48, March 22, 2007)

• Revision as of 13:49, January 27, 2007

• Revision as of 14:13, January 27, 2007

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• Non-talk pages automatically signed by HagermanBot