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Requested move at Talk:Central Council of Ukraine#Requested move 18 July 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Central Council of Ukraine#Requested move 18 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Frostly (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Misplaced Pages:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 18:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
- This sounds like it would really benefit the project. I endorse adopting it. If there are no objections, I’d like to request access at WP:CREDBOT. —Michael Z. 19:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Draft:Mykola Krupytskyi Monastery
This draft could use a little attention if anyone is interested in working on articles like this. Liz 20:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Merging articles on governorates in Ukraine
Proposing a merge of the following governorate (huberniia) articles.
- Kholm Governorate (Russian Empire) (1913–1918) → Kholm Governorate (Ukraine) (1918–1920)
- Kiev Governorate (1708–1764) → Kiev Governorate (1802–1925)
- Little Russia Governorate (1764–1781) → Little Russia Governorate (1796–1802)
Having these as separate articles is just confusing for the reader and inconsistent. Other Ukrainian governorate articles span long periods and several states (e.g., Russian Empire, Ukrainian People’s Republic, Ukrainian State, Ukrainian SSR, and Soviet Union), and Novorossiya Governorate (1764–1783, 1796–1802) covers a 13-year break in its existence. The latter two subjects are each treated under a single article in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine and its online version, for example (while Kholm gubernia is mentioned but has no article).
For comparison, other Ukrainian governorates under the Russian empire were Chernihiv (1802–1925), Katerynoslav (1802–1925), Kharkiv (1835–1925), Kherson (1803–1920), Kyiv (1802–1925), Podillia (1793–1925), Poltava (1802–1925), Volyn (1795–1925), as well as part of Tavriіa (1802–1921) existing from the late eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries, and later were added Donets (1919–1925), Kremenchuk (1920–1922), Odesa (1920–1925), and Zaporizhzhia (1920–1922) governorates. —Michael Z. 21:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Added dates. —Michael Z. 15:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it makes sense. Ymblanter (talk) 05:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, we shouldn't merge amidnistrative units of two different countries. Marcelus (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- But we do it routinely, see e.g. Vologda Governorate. Ymblanter (talk) 12:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, we do not. Vologda Governorate was a part of the Russian Empire and its successor Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. Marcelus (talk) 18:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- If that were something we shouldn’t do, then we should also be splitting and re-splitting the articles about governorates that were in both Category:Governorates of the Russian Empire and not only about a dozen Category:Governorates of Ukraine (one country but three separate states), but also scores of Category:Governorates of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (which were in both independent states RSFSR and USSR), for example. Please get consensus for such a dramatic change to our practices before citing it as a supposed should-do or shouldn’t-do. Until then, this is for consistency of a few outliers. —Michael Z. 14:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC) Edited. —Michael Z. 15:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcelus then do you support or oppose the merge of the Little Russia governorate articles, which were only in the Russian empire?
- Can you clarify that by “countries” you mean states? Obviously, Ukraine was a separate country from 1648, then a country colonized by an empire when most of these governorates were created, then kept them as an independent revolutionary country by 1918, then while ruled by a puppet state of Soviet Russia, then a country with the right of secession in the Soviet empire before they were finally dissolved. If you mean states, then most those Ukrainian governorate articles belonged to five states and the implications are severe fragmentation of these subjects, some of which as yet have very little encyclopedic content. —Michael Z. 16:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ukraine wasn't a separate country in 1648, but there was a Cossack state that was part of PLC, Turkey or Russia, with various degree of autonomy Marcelus (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was an independent, embattled country after 1648, and an autonomous country from 1654. The Russian tsars started to erode that autonomy immediately, splitting up Ukraine with Poland in 1667, destroying the Zaporizhzhian Sich in 1775, and suppressing Ukrainian language and identity.
- That’s a country. Statements that Ukraine wasn’t a country or that it isn’t a nation resemble the hate speech that social media is oversaturated with, and editors should consider their words on the topic if they have trouble writing about Ukrainian history without embarrassing themselves. —Michael Z. 19:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, Khmelnytsky state wasn't independent. Initially he was accepting suzerainty of the Commonwealth, later switched to Tsardom.
Statements that Ukraine wasn’t a country or that it isn’t a nation resemble the hate speech that social media is oversaturated with, and editors should consider their words on the topic if they have trouble writing about Ukrainian history without embarrassing themselves
- that's Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions Marcelus (talk) 19:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)- So then you’d say Russia wasn’t a country until 1991, right, and no one should have any problem with that? —Michael Z. 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand this comment. Marcelus (talk) 08:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- So then you’d say Russia wasn’t a country until 1991, right, and no one should have any problem with that? —Michael Z. 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ukraine wasn't a separate country in 1648, but there was a Cossack state that was part of PLC, Turkey or Russia, with various degree of autonomy Marcelus (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- But we do it routinely, see e.g. Vologda Governorate. Ymblanter (talk) 12:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Bortkiewicz' nationality
There is an edit war and accompanying discussion at Talk:Sergei Bortkiewicz regarding whether Bortkiewicz should be described in the lead as Russian, Ukrainian, or possibly a compromise solution. The talk also lacks a clear consensus on whether Russian or Ukrainian place names should be used in the biography section. I'm soliciting input from this Wikiproject and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Russia/Performing arts in Russia task force in an effort to build community consensus. 167.102.146.19 (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Input needed - Talk:Kievan_Rus'#Iranian_Poliane
There is a discussion about the possible Iranian/Sarmatian origin of Poliane. It's not clear what the scholarly consensus is, so inputs would be helpful. Alaexis¿question? 11:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 4 August 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 4 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Olha Kharlan#Requested move 30 July 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Olha Kharlan#Requested move 30 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
Discussion on CfD regarding the history of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
On WP:CfD there is an important discussion concerning the categorization of people living in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as well as the shape of the category tree concerning people of Polish nationality. Because of the subject matter, it seemed to me that this discussion might be of interest to participants in this Wikiproject.
Link: Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023 August_21#Category:18th-century people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation Marcelus (talk) 22:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict 2: Crimea
Back in February, there was a consensus established to not include occupied status of Ukrainian settlements in the infobox. See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 179#RFC: Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict.
This decision was made after some editors had been adding things like “Country: Ukraine (de jure), Russia (de facto)” or otherwise messing with the infobox fields that are meant to show the country-province-district (specifically country-oblast-raion) hierarchy that contains a settlement.
The proposal by @Ymblanter then was to make a decision and apply it to “clear cut cases,” and not to articles on settlements in Crimea, because they were “really administered by Russia.”
But the Crimea distinction was not a real one, and if it weren’t so clear in the past, it is more obvious now. Russia has “annexed” not only Crimea, but also the four other regions where it occupies cities, towns, and villages: in the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. At the same time, the Crimean peninsula has become more clearly part of the war zone, as Russian military targets there are hit by Ukrainian artillery, missiles, and drones. More importantly, there’s no reason in any guidelines or consensus to treat Russian occupation in Crimea as special.
We should either A) apply this decision uniformly throughout the occupied territories of Ukraine, and remove occupied status from inboxes, while ensuring that it is properly covered in article text; or B) decide to hold another RFC to rescind the decision, figure out a scheme for representing occupied status throughout settlement infoboxes (in Ukraine and more broadly), and resolve to update it as localities are occupied and liberated in Ukraine. —Michael Z. 03:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- There is still a pretty clear difference between Crimea/Sevastopol and Donetsk / Luhansk/ Zaporizhzhia/ Kherson/ Kharkiv Oblasts. Ymblanter (talk) 03:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Settlements in the former were occupied for longer. What else are you thinking of? —Michael Z. 03:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- I posted a link to this discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict 2: Crimea. —Michael Z. 03:40, 24 August 2023 (UTC)