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Requested move at Talk:Central Council of Ukraine#Requested move 18 July 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Central Council of Ukraine#Requested move 18 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Frostly (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Misplaced Pages:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 18:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
- This sounds like it would really benefit the project. I endorse adopting it. If there are no objections, I’d like to request access at WP:CREDBOT. —Michael Z. 19:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Draft:Mykola Krupytskyi Monastery
This draft could use a little attention if anyone is interested in working on articles like this. Liz 20:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Merging articles on governorates in Ukraine
Proposing a merge of the following governorate (huberniia) articles.
- Kholm Governorate (Russian Empire) (1913–1918) → Kholm Governorate (Ukraine) (1918–1920)
- Kiev Governorate (1708–1764) → Kiev Governorate (1802–1925)
- Little Russia Governorate (1764–1781) → Little Russia Governorate (1796–1802)
Having these as separate articles is just confusing for the reader and inconsistent. Other Ukrainian governorate articles span long periods and several states (e.g., Russian Empire, Ukrainian People’s Republic, Ukrainian State, Ukrainian SSR, and Soviet Union), and Novorossiya Governorate (1764–1783, 1796–1802) covers a 13-year break in its existence. The latter two subjects are each treated under a single article in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine and its online version, for example (while Kholm gubernia is mentioned but has no article).
For comparison, other Ukrainian governorates under the Russian empire were Chernihiv (1802–1925), Katerynoslav (1802–1925), Kharkiv (1835–1925), Kherson (1803–1920), Kyiv (1802–1925), Podillia (1793–1925), Poltava (1802–1925), Volyn (1795–1925), as well as part of Tavriіa (1802–1921) existing from the late eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries, and later were added Donets (1919–1925), Kremenchuk (1920–1922), Odesa (1920–1925), and Zaporizhzhia (1920–1922) governorates. —Michael Z. 21:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Added dates. —Michael Z. 15:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it makes sense. Ymblanter (talk) 05:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, we shouldn't merge amidnistrative units of two different countries. Marcelus (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- But we do it routinely, see e.g. Vologda Governorate. Ymblanter (talk) 12:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, we do not. Vologda Governorate was a part of the Russian Empire and its successor Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. Marcelus (talk) 18:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- If that were something we shouldn’t do, then we should also be splitting and re-splitting the articles about governorates that were in both Category:Governorates of the Russian Empire and not only about a dozen Category:Governorates of Ukraine (one country but three separate states), but also scores of Category:Governorates of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (which were in both independent states RSFSR and USSR), for example. Please get consensus for such a dramatic change to our practices before citing it as a supposed should-do or shouldn’t-do. Until then, this is for consistency of a few outliers. —Michael Z. 14:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC) Edited. —Michael Z. 15:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcelus then do you support or oppose the merge of the Little Russia governorate articles, which were only in the Russian empire?
- Can you clarify that by “countries” you mean states? Obviously, Ukraine was a separate country from 1648, then a country colonized by an empire when most of these governorates were created, then kept them as an independent revolutionary country by 1918, then while ruled by a puppet state of Soviet Russia, then a country with the right of secession in the Soviet empire before they were finally dissolved. If you mean states, then most those Ukrainian governorate articles belonged to five states and the implications are severe fragmentation of these subjects, some of which as yet have very little encyclopedic content. —Michael Z. 16:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ukraine wasn't a separate country in 1648, but there was a Cossack state that was part of PLC, Turkey or Russia, with various degree of autonomy Marcelus (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was an independent, embattled country after 1648, and an autonomous country from 1654. The Russian tsars started to erode that autonomy immediately, splitting up Ukraine with Poland in 1667, destroying the Zaporizhzhian Sich in 1775, and suppressing Ukrainian language and identity.
- That’s a country. Statements that Ukraine wasn’t a country or that it isn’t a nation resemble the hate speech that social media is oversaturated with, and editors should consider their words on the topic if they have trouble writing about Ukrainian history without embarrassing themselves. —Michael Z. 19:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, Khmelnytsky state wasn't independent. Initially he was accepting suzerainty of the Commonwealth, later switched to Tsardom.
Statements that Ukraine wasn’t a country or that it isn’t a nation resemble the hate speech that social media is oversaturated with, and editors should consider their words on the topic if they have trouble writing about Ukrainian history without embarrassing themselves
- that's Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions Marcelus (talk) 19:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)- So then you’d say Russia wasn’t a country until 1991, right, and no one should have any problem with that? —Michael Z. 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand this comment. Marcelus (talk) 08:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- So then you’d say Russia wasn’t a country until 1991, right, and no one should have any problem with that? —Michael Z. 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ukraine wasn't a separate country in 1648, but there was a Cossack state that was part of PLC, Turkey or Russia, with various degree of autonomy Marcelus (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- But we do it routinely, see e.g. Vologda Governorate. Ymblanter (talk) 12:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Bortkiewicz' nationality
There is an edit war and accompanying discussion at Talk:Sergei Bortkiewicz regarding whether Bortkiewicz should be described in the lead as Russian, Ukrainian, or possibly a compromise solution. The talk also lacks a clear consensus on whether Russian or Ukrainian place names should be used in the biography section. I'm soliciting input from this Wikiproject and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Russia/Performing arts in Russia task force in an effort to build community consensus. 167.102.146.19 (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Input needed - Talk:Kievan_Rus'#Iranian_Poliane
There is a discussion about the possible Iranian/Sarmatian origin of Poliane. It's not clear what the scholarly consensus is, so inputs would be helpful. Alaexis¿question? 11:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 4 August 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Requested move 4 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Olha Kharlan#Requested move 30 July 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Olha Kharlan#Requested move 30 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
Discussion on CfD regarding the history of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
On WP:CfD there is an important discussion concerning the categorization of people living in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as well as the shape of the category tree concerning people of Polish nationality. Because of the subject matter, it seemed to me that this discussion might be of interest to participants in this Wikiproject.
Link: Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023 August_21#Category:18th-century people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation Marcelus (talk) 22:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict 2: Crimea
Back in February, there was a consensus established to not include occupied status of Ukrainian settlements in the infobox. See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 179#RFC: Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict.
This decision was made after some editors had been adding things like “Country: Ukraine (de jure), Russia (de facto)” or otherwise messing with the infobox fields that are meant to show the country-province-district (specifically country-oblast-raion) hierarchy that contains a settlement.
The proposal by @Ymblanter then was to make a decision and apply it to “clear cut cases,” and not to articles on settlements in Crimea, because they were “really administered by Russia.”
But the Crimea distinction was not a real one, and if it weren’t so clear in the past, it is more obvious now. Russia has “annexed” not only Crimea, but also the four other regions where it occupies cities, towns, and villages: in the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. At the same time, the Crimean peninsula has become more clearly part of the war zone, as Russian military targets there are hit by Ukrainian artillery, missiles, and drones. More importantly, there’s no reason in any guidelines or consensus to treat Russian occupation in Crimea as special.
We should either A) apply this decision uniformly throughout the occupied territories of Ukraine, and remove occupied status from inboxes, while ensuring that it is properly covered in article text; or B) decide to hold another RFC to rescind the decision, figure out a scheme for representing occupied status throughout settlement infoboxes (in Ukraine and more broadly), and resolve to update it as localities are occupied and liberated in Ukraine. —Michael Z. 03:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- I posted a link to this discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Occupation in infobox for localities affected by the ongoing military conflict 2: Crimea. —Michael Z. 03:40, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- There is still a pretty clear difference between Crimea/Sevastopol and Donetsk / Luhansk/ Zaporizhzhia/ Kherson/ Kharkiv Oblasts. Ymblanter (talk) 03:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Settlements in the former were occupied for longer. What else are you thinking of? —Michael Z. 03:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- My thought would be this is premature since there is no early prospect of any part of Crimea being other than Russian-administered and thus there's been no real change from the recent RFC (March 2023). The occasional drone/bomb/other sea or air delivered device has been going on since before then and doesn't seem to affect who controls the land.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- You’re saying Crimea has no “early prospect” but southeastern Ukraine does. Is that not WP:CRYSTAL? Can you describe this in concrete terms based on RS and related to our guidelines?
- 1) There was no consensus to believe anything significant about early or late prospects when that consensus was reached, and 2) since then the Russians have built and are expanding defensive lines in Crimea in anticipation of a Ukrainian advance into the peninsula, the Ukrainians have increased attacks and put Russian ground lines of communication into and out of Crimea under fire, the Russians have evacuated submarines and ships from Sevastopol, and the Ukrainians have just now conducted another commando op into Crimea.
- The situation of conflict and occupation after sham referendums is the same in all parts of Russian-occupied Ukraine, differing only in details, like the specific date of a settlement’s occupation. There is no reason to privilege the Russian occupation of the one over the other by subverting the subdivision fields in infobox templates.
- The consensus was intended “in principle” to apply generally to infoboxes in articles on occupied settlements anywhere. Settlements in southeastern Ukraine were seen as a field where this disruptive form of non-NPOV data in infoboxes was spreading and urgently needed to be dealt with. Now that that is stably resolved, we should deal with the same situation in articles on settlements in Crimea, because there is no NPOV reason to treat it differently. —Michael Z. 20:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- The other oblasts are active war zones with part controlled by each side in each case. It makes sense for the sake of stability not to go back and forth depending on who controls it. Crimea and Sebastopol may soon fall into that category, or may not, but do not now, and Russian control is nine years old. Without showing disrespect to anyone, it makes sense to list in the infobox details of the present administration by Russia as reflecting the situation as it is, and not as we might like it to be. As you say, we cannot predict the future per WP:CRYSTAL. Accordingly, we should not anticipate what the fortunes of war may bring, and there is time enough to do it later. At the present time the existing consensus governs, and there has not been time or reason to disturb it. Wehwalt (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Parts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts have also been occupied for over nine years, and Crimea is part of the active war zone with strikes on a daily basis and part of Russian forces already driven out, so these are not qualitative, substantial distinctions. —Michael Z. 22:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note that, unlike Crimea, these territories were not formally annexed by Russia until much later. I'm not sure if this matters for the discussion though. MarioGom (talk) 08:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Parts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts have also been occupied for over nine years, and Crimea is part of the active war zone with strikes on a daily basis and part of Russian forces already driven out, so these are not qualitative, substantial distinctions. —Michael Z. 22:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- The other oblasts are active war zones with part controlled by each side in each case. It makes sense for the sake of stability not to go back and forth depending on who controls it. Crimea and Sebastopol may soon fall into that category, or may not, but do not now, and Russian control is nine years old. Without showing disrespect to anyone, it makes sense to list in the infobox details of the present administration by Russia as reflecting the situation as it is, and not as we might like it to be. As you say, we cannot predict the future per WP:CRYSTAL. Accordingly, we should not anticipate what the fortunes of war may bring, and there is time enough to do it later. At the present time the existing consensus governs, and there has not been time or reason to disturb it. Wehwalt (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Russian laws are implemented in Crimea, they are not implemented in Donetsk. There is freedom of movement between Crimea and RUssia, there is no freedom of movement between Russia and LUhansk. There are people who moved from Russia to Crimea, there are no people who moved from Russia to the occupied areas of Kherson Oblast unless they are military personnel or are on a temporrary mission and get moved back after the mission is deemed to expire (some of them do not even move and stay in Moscow while formally being in Berdiansk. Ymblanter (talk) 01:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Russia is resettling all of the occupied territories: it is settling Russians in Mariupol and elsewhere as they had already been doing in Crimea, and forcibly deporting Ukrainians from all of these regions. And also changing the population by forcing Russian passports onto Ukrainians, everywhere it can. I don’t know why “people moved” should affect displaying occupied status in the infobox anyway.
- You’ll have to explain this about Russian law, and why should matter more than, for example, Russian propaganda, because both are things the Kremlin makes up, amends, enforces, and violates selectively and arbitrarily. And I don’t even know what you mean by implemented here but not there, because what’s “annexed,” i.e. where Russian law supposedly is in force, is much greater than what’s occupied, only aspirational, and actually illegal (and probably technically violates Russia’s constitution).
- I don’t think Russian law should dictate what we put into infoboxes.
- Unlike those things, there is a significant de facto distinction between what’s occupied by Russian forces and what’s not, and that is what this discussion is about: “occupation in infobox.” —Michael Z. 23:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- My thought would be this is premature since there is no early prospect of any part of Crimea being other than Russian-administered and thus there's been no real change from the recent RFC (March 2023). The occasional drone/bomb/other sea or air delivered device has been going on since before then and doesn't seem to affect who controls the land.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Settlements in the former were occupied for longer. What else are you thinking of? —Michael Z. 03:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Tram networks in Ukraine : check needed
Hello, just wondering if this list of still-working tram networks in the country is still OK ? https://w.wiki/7Kth Thanks Bouzinac (talk) 17:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Wolfsangel or Idea of a Nation
What is this WikiProject's opinion on the naming of a symbol used in several far-right Ukrainian political groups' logos? Is the symbol seen at eg. Azov Brigade or Social-National Party of Ukraine a Wolfsangel or a similar but unrelated symbol named "Idea of a Nation"? This has been the topic of dozens of disputes and edit wars, and I think at this point there should be a real consensus about this.
The resemblance is obvious, and foreign sources like The Telegraph say it's a Wolfsangel. It has also been used as a symbol by unquestionably neo-Nazi groups like Aryan Nations. On the other hand, the Azov brigade itself says it's simply a monogram created by putting the letters I and N together.
Andreas Umland has said the Wolfsangel itself is not considered a fascist symbol in Ukraine. If so, is it still considered distinct from the NI-symbol used by the Azov brigade and such? And if they are considered separate symbols, do they still have the same connotation? Should the Misplaced Pages articles that include the symbol(s) be changed to reflect this cultural difference? This is not something I know much about, so I decided to ask here before starting an RfC. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 09:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest you discuss specific potentially controversial changes to article text where you intend to make them. Trying to create an official Wiki consensus on a controversial topic could lead to a lot of WP:NOTCHAT and very little progress in building the encyclopedia. —Michael Z. 16:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)