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Revision as of 00:31, 13 September 2023 by EggRoll97 (talk | contribs) (Relisted requested move using rmCloser)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jewish extremist terrorism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Requested move 25 February 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved - Consensus that "Jewish" indicates both an ethnicity and a religion, and so disambiguation is necessary. There's a further dicsussion to be had about content but that can be dealt with through ordinary editing (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 13:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
Jewish religious terrorism → Jewish terrorism – Eliminating tautology, per WP:CONCISE, and aligning the title with Islamic terrorism,Christian terrorism, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Iskandar323 (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Support per nom. Estar8806 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)- Change my vote to Oppose per the arguments below regarding Jews being an ethnoreligious group, not just a religious one like Muslims or Christians.--Estar8806 (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - the nom implies that Jews are equivalent to Muslims and Christians, which is not true, as Jews are an ethnoreligious group, both an ethnicity and a religion. --- Tbf69 P • T 18:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Then 'religious' is just a misnomer, because it's 'ethnoreligious' terrorism - same result. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- The page, in any case, carries a blend of religiously and politically oriented terror. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Then 'religious' is just a misnomer, because it's 'ethnoreligious' terrorism - same result. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion, meaning that the title is not a tautology but instead clarifying which the article is referring to; we cannot omit it per WP:PRECISE. This is also why we cannot have consistency with the titles of Islamic terrorism and Christian terrorism.
- We also have no articles titled " terrorism"; per WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:BADIDEA we shouldn't make an exception here. BilledMammal (talk) 13:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: If you go through the examples in the article, you will actually find that it is as much if not more about about Jewish nationalist terror as it is anything related to 'religious' terror. Perhaps my opening comment was incorrect and 'Jewish ethnoreligious terrorism' would have been tautology. As it stands, it is simply a misnomer, since it starts from the 'political and religious movement' of the zealots, and moves through purely political movements such as Gush Emunim and Kach, and onto settler violence. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think Jewish nationalist terror is primarily covered by Zionist political violence; we don't need to duplicate that content here.
- We also don't name other examples of nationalist terrorism after the ethnicity of those engaged in it; we don't have articles called Irish terrorism, Albanian terrorism, Palestinian terrorism, or Basque terrorism. Making an exception here is not a good idea. BilledMammal (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Ok, but since the content already is what it is here, and, in your opinion, duplicated, if you do not think the name should change, are you saying the scope should be narrowed? Which of the elements on this page would you actually host here? And how, in the case of an ethnic religion, is one to clearly distinguish between religious, political and specifically nationalist terrorism (as opposed to simply 'Jewish terrorism'), when they are all so intricately bound up and interlinked? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Keep religiously motivated elements here, split off nationalist motivated ones. Elements that involve both motivations are more difficult, but that isn't a problem unique to this article and can be resolved. BilledMammal (talk) 18:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Ok, but since the content already is what it is here, and, in your opinion, duplicated, if you do not think the name should change, are you saying the scope should be narrowed? Which of the elements on this page would you actually host here? And how, in the case of an ethnic religion, is one to clearly distinguish between religious, political and specifically nationalist terrorism (as opposed to simply 'Jewish terrorism'), when they are all so intricately bound up and interlinked? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: If you go through the examples in the article, you will actually find that it is as much if not more about about Jewish nationalist terror as it is anything related to 'religious' terror. Perhaps my opening comment was incorrect and 'Jewish ethnoreligious terrorism' would have been tautology. As it stands, it is simply a misnomer, since it starts from the 'political and religious movement' of the zealots, and moves through purely political movements such as Gush Emunim and Kach, and onto settler violence. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 4 September 2023
 | The request to rename this article to Jewish extremist terrorism has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Jewish religious terrorism → Jewish extremist terrorism – Terrorism is not a consequence of “religious” views, but rather of extremist views. An entire religion should not be associated with terrorism, but only the extremists within it. The proposed title meets the precision test in WP:TITLE and complies with WP:NPOV much better than the current title. There seems to be strong support in an ongoing discussion on the List of Islamic terrorist attacks talk-page for changing that title to List of Islamic extremist attacks, and we should make similar move requests for Jewish religious terrorism, Christian terrorism, etc.. NightHeron (talk) 18:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 00:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Support: per the above and the first sentence of the which defines the subject as terrorism by "extremists within Judaism", and considering the important point that almost all terrorism is on some level partly political, so purely "religious terrorism" is a bit of a misnomer and practically non-existent in practice. The actual examples on this page are deeply entwined with politics. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Support I think arguments above and in ongoing discussions at Talk:List of Islamic terrorist attacks have shown some consensus for these these sorts of changes. TarnishedPath 01:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Support --06:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--BeLucky (talk)
- Support Existing title is unusual/strange. There's many ways to interpret "religious terrorism" - does it mean motivated by religious belief or terrorising the religion of others? Unclear and fails CRIT Naturalness. Proposed title is clear and straightforward. DeCausa (talk) 10:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- Move to Jewish terrorism per WP:CONSISTENT for consistency with Christian terrorism. And per WP:CONCISE, as all terrorists are, by definition, extremists. Which makes "extremist terrorism" redundant. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC) Rreagan007 (talk) 04:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- If a consensus supports this proposed move, I'll propose a similar move from Christian terrorism to Christian extremist terrorism and from Hindu terrorism to Hindu extremist terrorism. Per WP:NPOV we should not associate terrorism generally with a religious group or ethnicity, but only with an extreme wing of it. NPOV is a core policy, whereas WP:CONCISE is not. NightHeron (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. I think it would be premature to go on a spree of move requests when you don't know the outcome here. TarnishedPath 05:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- We need to consider this aspect also: Both religious terrorism and extremist terrorism involve the use of violence for ideological purposes, the key distinction lies in the primary motivation and targets. Religious terrorism is driven by religious beliefs and often targets those perceived as threats to those beliefs, while extremist terrorism can be rooted in various ideologies and may have a broader range of targets. It's important to note that not all religious individuals or extremist groups engage in terrorism, and the majority of religious and extremist movements are non-violent. --BeLucky (talk) 06:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- The latter point is not a source of confusion; these articles are about terrorism, not about non-violent extremists. To the first point I would reiterate that "religious terrorism" is itself a disputed term. The more NPOV synonym for terrorism is "political violence", and the reason for this is that the word terrorism contains the sense of violence for political ends. Political violence by groups with religious sympathies is still political violence; why they might be inspired by religious ideology (in the same way that domestic terrorism might be inspired by xenophobia), the end result is still violence with a political goal - making a political statement, changing the conversation or public opinion, intimidating political opponents or attempting to effect the structures of government themselves. In contrast, it is hard to think of an example of something that might be construed as pure "religious terrorism" without some sort of political end. On this page, the Zealots explicitly instigated a rebellion against Rome; it was political in the extreme. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- If a consensus supports this proposed move, I'll propose a similar move from Christian terrorism to Christian extremist terrorism and from Hindu terrorism to Hindu extremist terrorism. Per WP:NPOV we should not associate terrorism generally with a religious group or ethnicity, but only with an extreme wing of it. NPOV is a core policy, whereas WP:CONCISE is not. NightHeron (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Move to Jewish terrorism. I'm in agreement with the consistency and concision point sraised by Rreagan007. The status quo has the modifier "religious" which serves little purpose, unless there's more ethnically but non-religiously Jewish terrorism out there than I'm aware of. The proposed modifier "extremist" is redundant to "terrorism". I'm sympathetic to NightHeron's view on needing to associate terrorist acts with the extremists, not whole religions, but this is the job of the articles and leads, not the titles. I suppose we could have a discussion about moving all "X terrorism" to "X extremist terrorism", but I don't think it'll help. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
the picture
the picture is fucked up. can someone change it? 73.171.42.173 (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- What picture? HiLo48 (talk) 22:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
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