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Move
This article was created according to a discussion at the Bitcoin Talk Page by moving some content from the Bitcoin article to this article. For the list of the content's contributors, see the Bitcoin article history.
--Thereisnous (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have added the ewaste part back to Bitcoin because we cannot leave it out there. As for this article if it should make any sense as a stand-alone article it should 1) give an overview of the discussion in the CC community 2) cite sources that compare the environmental impact of different CCs and 3) explain how policy makers ans political leaders have tackled the environmental impact of CCs (excessive consumption of dirty energy and air pollution etc). CarlFromVienna (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
better coverage
This page was taken from the Bitcoin page, so was all about Bitcoin. I have:
- broadened intro and added WSJ ref
- added Bitcoin, mining, etc to headings
- added section on PoS and other network types
- moved Chia into section on PoS and other network types
- standardised on capitalised BitcoinGreyStar456 (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
Core theis
Do we have sources that state this?
"The main environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change."
Or is this a WP:SYNTH based upon the statement that follows it?: "This is because bitcoin are made using electricity generated by gas-fired and coal-fired power plants."
Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Almost all sources only mention that environmental impact so I would be very surprised if anyone said that anything else was its main environmental impact. I suspect that they do not say ‘main environmental impact’ because its other environmental impacts are too small nowadays for almost all sources to mention. I am not an American but from what I read I understand the US has very strict controls these days on local pollution from coal power and coal mining. However I will root around a bit more and see if I can find a source which specifically says that GHG is the main environmental impact.
- Digression: Having said that I should probably also take a look at Energy in Kazakhstan and polish that up a little in case bitcoin mining becomes more popular there. You think Kazakhstan will be able to import new mining rigs in future? Chidgk1 (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- As I suspected IEA says “ Many of Kazakhstan’s coal-fired power plants are old, inefficient and highly polluting.” Chidgk1 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Just found Talk:Electronic waste in the United States so have asked there how much of a problem bitcoin ewaste is Chidgk1 (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Please review the above SYNTH link that I posted. We must comply with this policy. Please see if you can find sources that support above claims. For example 'Bitcoin consumes electricity, bitcoin is mined in Kazakstan, Kazakstan gets electricity from coal, burning coal creates carbon emissions' and therefore we will make the claim that bitcoin creates carbon emissions is classic SYNTH. I dont doubt that there may be sources to support the actual claim, but the sources are required to be put in the article. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- What, exactly, is the problem? Are you contesting this claim yourself, or are you saying that it must be sourced because it could hypothetically be contested? Per MOS:LEAD, the lede should be written in more general language than the body of the article. As a summary of the rest of this article, this sentence seems perfectly fine to me. Bitcoin mining, currently, per countless reliable sources, damages the climate. The purpose of the lead isn't to equivocate on exactly how much it damages the climate, or how this will change in the future. Any claims that it doesn't actually damage the climate are WP:FRINGE as they are contesting the academic consensus on climate change. If this is really your position, I would suggest we bring this up with WP:FRINGEN. Grayfell (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- If there are many sources to this claim, just add one please. No need to explain why it is missing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- I amended the lead to add local air pollution from coal-fired power and to remove the ranking of the different environmental impacts. I am pretty sure the ewaste is the smallest impact but I don’t have a cite to say so. You guys almost certainly know more about bitcoin than I do so may have some idea about whether the distribution of mining by country will change much next year - if so it would likely change the amount of local air pollution. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- If there are many sources to this claim, just add one please. No need to explain why it is missing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- What, exactly, is the problem? Are you contesting this claim yourself, or are you saying that it must be sourced because it could hypothetically be contested? Per MOS:LEAD, the lede should be written in more general language than the body of the article. As a summary of the rest of this article, this sentence seems perfectly fine to me. Bitcoin mining, currently, per countless reliable sources, damages the climate. The purpose of the lead isn't to equivocate on exactly how much it damages the climate, or how this will change in the future. Any claims that it doesn't actually damage the climate are WP:FRINGE as they are contesting the academic consensus on climate change. If this is really your position, I would suggest we bring this up with WP:FRINGEN. Grayfell (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- Please review the above SYNTH link that I posted. We must comply with this policy. Please see if you can find sources that support above claims. For example 'Bitcoin consumes electricity, bitcoin is mined in Kazakstan, Kazakstan gets electricity from coal, burning coal creates carbon emissions' and therefore we will make the claim that bitcoin creates carbon emissions is classic SYNTH. I dont doubt that there may be sources to support the actual claim, but the sources are required to be put in the article. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- The article starts with "One environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change" but then goes on to discuss e-waste. I dont think e-waste is directly tied to climate change. Maybe the first sentence should be amended to make the article more of a catch all for various environmental issues relating to bitcoin? At least until there is an article about bitcoin e-waste (if it is ever notable enough to warrant an article). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- I doubt bitcoin ewaste will ever need its own article. Can you suggest a better first sentence here on the talk page? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- The article starts with "One environmental impact of bitcoin is that it worsens climate change" but then goes on to discuss e-waste. I dont think e-waste is directly tied to climate change. Maybe the first sentence should be amended to make the article more of a catch all for various environmental issues relating to bitcoin? At least until there is an article about bitcoin e-waste (if it is ever notable enough to warrant an article). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Were some of my changes accidentally undone?
Hello @David Gerard
For your change
you commented ‘if we have the academic cite, then we don't need some crypto blog’ and I certainly agree with your comment.
But as well as correctly removing the unneeded cite your change also undid some of my changes such as some of my shortening of the lead - I wonder if that was what you intended? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, my error! I did indeed only mean to remove Cointelegrah - David Gerard (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for quick reply. As a sysadmin are you able to easily redo my changes? If not no probs I will get around to it once I am on hardware which is easier for editing than my current iPad without mouse - hopefully within a week. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- er, not easily, it's too complex to undo and a pile of people have edited after - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- Ah I see I have a ‘restore this version’ link. I have never used it before but I think it will be easier for me to redo the changes by @Jtbobwaysf and @Grayfell than to redo my changes. As I have never asked for the ability to restore an old version I assume you guys all have that power too. So if I screw up sorry and feel free to restore to the version as it is now Chidgk1 (talk) 17:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- Done - it would be good if you could all check now Chidgk1 (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- Ah I see I have a ‘restore this version’ link. I have never used it before but I think it will be easier for me to redo the changes by @Jtbobwaysf and @Grayfell than to redo my changes. As I have never asked for the ability to restore an old version I assume you guys all have that power too. So if I screw up sorry and feel free to restore to the version as it is now Chidgk1 (talk) 17:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- er, not easily, it's too complex to undo and a pile of people have edited after - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Article title should be sentence case
The "B" in the article title should not be capitalized. Per bitcoin, the name 'bitcoin' is typically written with sentence case (similar to the word "dollar" or "scrip" or similar). This article should reflect that, and should be Environmental impact of bitcoin. That name currently redirects to this article.
This doesn't seem like controversial enough change to justify an RFC to me, but maybe there is some objection I haven't thought of. If not, I will post to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Requesting technical moves.
There is also the related issue that this article is arguably about the 'environmental impact of cryptocurrency' or the 'environmental impact of blockchains', with bitcoin merely being the most prominent example. Grayfell (talk) 09:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
- Moved it to lowercase bitcoin. FunLater (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- As far as I know there are nowadays no other major cryptocurrencies which use proof of work, so the environmental impact of non-Bitcoin crypto is not notable enough to be mentioned in Misplaced Pages Chidgk1 (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with this section, which is about sentence case. This is an encyclopedia article, so things which happened in the past, and which still have lasting repercussions, are still encyclopedically significant, per countless sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Considerable
Hi Greyfell (talk · contribs), you reverted to re-add "considerable" here which failed verification. Please show where this is coming from. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- Are you joking? It's coming from the entire article. Most sources currently cited support this. The purpose of the lead is to summarize the body of the article. Grayfell (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- I concur. No referenced source uses this term. The term considerable means notably large and really requires a frame of reference to be meaningful. In order to give proper context you need to compare Bitcoin to its closest real world analogue Gold. The CCAF states:
- To provide some context, we compared Bitcoin's estimated annualised GHG emissions to those from other industry sectors and activities.
- Bitcoin’s closest and most referenced real-world analogue is gold.
- https://ccaf.io/cbnsi/cbeci/ghg/comparisons
- Nacentaeons (talk) 20:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- It should be noted that general practice is not to add citations to an article lede at all. I'm not sure why an exception has been made here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- There is a hidden note at the top of the page saying "As the lead section is excerpted to "Bitcoin" please make sure it is properly cited". That's reasonable, but since this is already explained by template:excerpt at Bitcoin#Environmental effects I think the note does more harm than good at this point. Grayfell (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- So does this mean that this cite is not applicable to the statement considerable? If nobody knows why it is there, then it should be removed. Which source says it is considerable btw? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)